so whats the difference between just the way its setup ... do they both have strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others ?

I think I remember reading something about V's being better than Inline's for some reason (probably why Nissan is using them now instead of the ol' Inline) but I'm not sure... I'll leave that to people who are much more knowledgable in that field...

so whats the difference between just the way its setup ... do they both have strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others ?
Let me put it this way...all indy cars have V8's....most exotic's have V8's or a "V" something....99% of the super fast drag cars have V8's....some of the most expensive cars in the world have "V" something....need I say more?

6's have there place....

this guy was flaming me when i said i have a 3.0v6, he said his 2.4 inline 4 was better and that mine was crap... i think he was talking about his eclipse or 240 sx

Probably a 240SX... as long as it has the KA24(D)E, I have beat one every single time.

Now the SR20DET... I'll leave that for the TT boys.

the only advantage i know of with the inline is it does make more torque than a similar size V engine. thats about it though.

-Jared

Now the SR20DET... I'll leave that for the TT boys.

I don't eat junk food.

more torque doesnt sound like a bad idea, if i am correct, the supra is an inline 6, does the inline form have anything to do with how the exhaust help spool the turbos or am i just pulling this crap out of my ass or maybe they can handle more boost than a V.. this stuff is pretty much useless knowledge for me at the moment but very interesting to see why different companies make different forms of motors... theres got to be a reason why the new eclipse is an inline instead of v ... V takes less room which in turn would mean better destribution, while an inline would put more weight on front wheels, new eclipse is FR however putting a motor like that would create more torque steer right

oh man, someone else wanna take care a this one

more torque doesnt sound like a bad idea, if i am correct, the supra is an inline 6, does the inline form have anything to do with how the exhaust help spool the turbos or am i just pulling this crap out of my ass or maybe they can handle more boost than a V.. this stuff is pretty much useless knowledge for me at the moment but very interesting to see why different companies make different forms of motors... theres got to be a reason why the new eclipse is an inline instead of v ... V takes less room which in turn would mean better destribution, while an inline would put more weight on front wheels, new eclipse is FR however putting a motor like that would create more torque steer right

lets back up...first of all, all 4 cylinders are inlines that i am aware of. thats from eclipses, EVOs, cavaliers, sunfires, 240sx...it doesnt matter. all automobile 4 cylinders are inline that i have every heard of. Oh BTW, the eclipse does offer a V6 as an optional engine...

inline 6's have a tendency to be more powerful when you shove so much money at it compared to a V6...i dont really know why. it may be because the manufacturer built them more potent or it does have soemthing to do with them making more power easier than a V configured engine. i really dont know, you will have to ask someone else why that is.

now, the configuration of the engine has nothing to do with the weight in the front. both engines are in the front and put that same amount of weight on the wheels if they are the same weight engine...

that guy you talked to, that said his inline 4 was better than your V6 just because of the fact that the cylinders were inline, is a complete f*** tard. both engines have their purpose. both engines (for the most part) serve different purposes. inline 4's serve more of the economical car becasue they dont tend to guzzle as much gas as a V6 or V8 or V12...
there are always exceptions, s2000 and EVO just to name a couple, im sure they drink just as much as a 350z...because they are putting out some good power. different companies usually have a tendency to be better with certain engines, atleast thats what it seems. this could be the reason for different companies using different engines.

don't forget about the scoobie's flat 4's... i think the inline 6's are more balanced than the v6's... because think about it... would you rather have all 6 going up and down or trying to fire downwards at a 90degree (not sure about that one, maybe less) opposite angle... less ware on the crank i'd think?

i think if you have good engineers, any engine can be very balanced. take the vg30de(tt) for example, it is a very very balanced engine.

-Jared

OK let me help out a bit.

Inlines and V blocks... strengths and weaknessess
Inlines- generate more torque on avg than a V block engine of the same displacement, also most of the time are cheaper engines and simpler to manufacture than a V block. Downsides Inlines have been notorious for not being able to keep up with stringent emmissions and fuel consumption laws. Also some inlines are well known for warping and often cracking along the center line do to the amount of torque that they do generate.

V blocks, have a shorter length than your average inline and have a shorter crank, this saves space and makes balanceing a bit easier, but manufacturing is alot more complicated and time consuming than a inline. The HP capabilities without breaking are alot higher on some V blocks than most inlines, but you sacrifice torque.

Both have there strengths, and there weaknessess, I only named a few of what I can think of for each. And any crack head who says his 2.4L 4cyl can out perform your V6 3.0L is HIGH, ask him where he is getting his dope from becuase my dealer has been holding out on me! Oh and Inlines also have one outher problem, there is a maximum displacement before they will become to big to balance properly for street use.

OK let me help out a bit.

Inlines and V blocks... strengths and weaknessess
Inlines- generate more torque on avg than a V block engine of the same displacement, also most of the time are cheaper engines and simpler to manufacture than a V block. Downsides Inlines have been notorious for not being able to keep up with stringent emmissions and fuel consumption laws. Also some inlines are well known for warping and often cracking along the center line do to the amount of torque that they do generate.

V blocks, have a shorter length than your average inline and have a shorter crank, this saves space and makes balanceing a bit easier, but manufacturing is alot more complicated and time consuming than a inline. The HP capabilities without breaking are alot higher on some V blocks than most inlines, but you sacrifice torque.

Both have there strengths, and there weaknessess, I only named a few of what I can think of for each. And any crack head who says his 2.4L 4cyl can out perform your V6 3.0L is HIGH, ask him where he is getting his dope from becuase my dealer has been holding out on me! Oh and Inlines also have one outher problem, there is a maximum displacement before they will become to big to balance properly for street use.

thanks hodo...good info. sorry delerious i forgot all about the soobies!!!

ok, hodo, so whats the advantages and disadvantages of a H-6 that was used in the SVX???

Because of bore spacing on big inlines and crank length inline 6's and 8's are bad for breaking the cranks. Plus when you start getting into high HP figures the blocks start flexing causing lots of problem. Years ago Buick and Chrysler made inline 8's and they were low RPM engines and couldn't handle much power.
As for Inlines having more torque than a "V" engine thats all BS. Some "V" engines have torque ratings beyond anything a inline could ever dream of. Stock the mfg's. have desinged the inlines for low RPM and hi torque, but that's all in the cam design, and they have been known for high torque, but as for being able to develop more torque than a "V" engine BS.

^^ Agreed.

i have always been told that the inline creates more torque than V engines.

-Jared

I didnt know that albert..... well goes to show the more you know........ As for the H6, couldnt tell you, not a Boxer or H-block person, I know even less about them than I do about normal engine.

I didnt know that albert..... well goes to show the more you know........ As for the H6, couldnt tell you, not a Boxer or H-block person, I know even less about them than I do about normal engine.

Hodo, what's a normal engine? What about the Franklin, Stirlin and the Henway?

You know albert normal as oppossed to abnormal.

You know albert normal as oppossed to abnormal.

I'm just trying to protect you from getting flamed by Porsche, Scoobie and VW owners. They consider us abnormal.

Heres a old qoute from a game I play...... "who is to decide what is normal? For the abnormal out number the normal therefore does that make us normal?"

Jive...

Because of bore spacing on big inlines and crank length inline 6's and 8's are bad for breaking the cranks. Plus when you start getting into high HP figures the blocks start flexing causing lots of problem. Years ago Buick and Chrysler made inline 8's and they were low RPM engines and couldn't handle much power.
As for Inlines having more torque than a "V" engine thats all BS. Some "V" engines have torque ratings beyond anything a inline could ever dream of. Stock the mfg's. have desinged the inlines for low RPM and hi torque, but that's all in the cam design, and they have been known for high torque, but as for being able to develop more torque than a "V" engine BS.

Everybody had good input I can agree with to a point. Let me try and clarify things by my knowledge. First off Inlines do tend to make more torque than most other configurations b/c the load on the crankshaft is directy up and down( every power stroke comes directly ontop the crank one angle, one massive push) to distribute the firing intervals acceptably along the crank. Set back often counter weights/tunig of the crank are need for maximum balance versus naturaully balanced boxer engine(see below) gravity can be used as an advantage or against you. and in most cases they produce a enormous amount of torque, though cams can change the character of the engine, its configuration gives it a broad torque curve. example even though not a race car or sports car. Semi trucks that pull big ass trailers have straight 6 turbos, cylinders the size of coffee cans, displacements between 12 and 15 liters. inline engines in proper form produce generous amounts of usable torque.
Vee engines are usually more balanced, but some are very rough like harlley cycles 60 degrees twin, both fire twice only every complete revolution, but thats another topic. My mechanical egineering book describes a completely balanced engine. a 6 cylinder engine with three pairs of pistons at 120 degrees. similar to the degree of F1 engines and Ferraris v 12 configs. Boxer 120degree config engines are considered in complete primary balance b/c the piston are always moving away or towars each other. Both can be very successfull at making power and have been proven many times on the race track. Its your choice to decide what is right for yo appliction. there is also V8s but I am tired I will give some more on V6s and 8s later, hope that helps out and let me know if u know different ;0 peace

good post tach

Everybody had good input I can agree with to a point. Let me try and clarify things by my knowledge. First off Inlines do tend to make more torque than most other configurations b/c the load on the crankshaft is directy up and down( every power stroke comes directly ontop the crank one angle, one massive push) to distribute the firing intervals acceptably along the crank.

Ok, back to basic highschool physics. It doesn't matter where the piston pushes from. If the crank is at the right angle and the piston pushes on it, its going to make the same force no matter which angle its positioned at. You have to think of a V-6/Inline-6 as 6 separate engines all connected at the crank, because each cylinder fires at a different time. A V-6 is just 2 x inline-3's connected at the crank. Now, based off the torque specifications of these 2 inline 3s, they should add up, giving the exact same torque of an inline 6, all other things being equal.


Set back often counter weights/tunig of the crank are need for maximum balance versus naturaully balanced boxer engine(see below) gravity can be used as an advantage or against you. and in most cases they produce a enormous amount of torque, though cams can change the character of the engine, its configuration gives it a broad torque curve.
I think we're kinda detracting from the original question here, but you're right, boxer engines are more balanced as standard. Inline engines are the worst balanced design for a standard engine. They're a very simple solution to add more cylinders. In fact, iirc, the first multi-cylinder engines were just single individual piston engines all connected at the crank. All with their own sump, own carb, own tb etc. Now it doesn't matter if you rotate any of these engines around the crank. They're still going to be producing the same power.


example even though not a race car or sports car. Semi trucks that pull big ass trailers have straight 6 turbos, cylinders the size of coffee cans, displacements between 12 and 15 liters. inline engines in proper form produce generous amounts of usable torque.


This is more due to inline engines being simpler, and there clearly being enough room for the inline engine anyway. What about your average big 4wd? I can't actually think of a big 4wd that uses an inline engine. As far as I can remember, they're mostly V6/V8/boxer engines.


Vee engines are usually more balanced, but some are very rough like harlley cycles 60 degrees twin, both fire twice only every complete revolution, but thats another topic.


Ok, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but the reason Harley Davidson engines sound different from normal engines is because they use the same big end bearing for the two cylinders of any given vee (or at least, the big end bearings for the two conrods pass through the same offset from the crank) which gives your typical sounding 1-2.......1-2........1-2 sound.


My mechanical egineering book describes a completely balanced engine. a 6 cylinder engine with three pairs of pistons at 120 degrees. similar to the degree of F1 engines and Ferraris v 12 configs. Boxer 120degree config engines are considered in complete primary balance b/c the piston are always moving away or towars each other. Both can be very successfull at making power and have been proven many times on the race track. Its your choice to decide what is right for yo appliction. there is also V8s but I am tired I will give some more on V6s and 8s later, hope that helps out and let me know if u know different ;0 peace

All other things being equal (cylinder size, piston timing, etc.) a V6 and Inline 6 will produce the same torque. Because a V6 is inherently more balanced (there is more lateral reciprocating force) it requires less balancing of the crankshaft, which may help decrease the sprung mass and unsprung mass. This, however doesn't mean all that much for this discussion as the reciprocating masses will remain the same, and hence the torque will remain the same.

If I've forgotten anything, please feel free to correct me. :)

-Mike

Ok, back to basic highschool physics. It doesn't matter where the piston pushes from. If the crank is at the right angle and the piston pushes on it, its going to make the same force no matter which angle its positioned at. You have to think of a V-6/Inline-6 as 6 separate engines all connected at the crank, because each cylinder fires at a different time. A V-6 is just 2 x inline-3's connected at the crank. Now, based off the torque specifications of these 2 inline 3s, they should add up, giving the exact same torque of an inline 6, all other things being equal.

Inline 6's do in fact make more torque because they have longer strokes. Since they are packaged in such a way that all of the cylinders fire in the same direction, the stroke can be longer. A longer stroke means more leverage, which directly translates into more torque. The trade off here is that I6's generally don't rev as high because they require longer rods.

The M3 vs. NSX immediately came to mind when I saw this thread. 262 lb-ft out of a 3.2 liter is not bad at all. In comparsion, the 3.2l out of the NSX only makes a wimpy 224 lb-ft.

Inline 6's do in fact make more torque because they have longer strokes. Since they are packaged in such a way that all of the cylinders fire in the same direction, the stroke can be longer. A longer stroke means more leverage, which directly translates into more torque. The trade off here is that I6's generally don't rev as high because they require longer rods.

The M3 vs. NSX immediately came to mind when I saw this thread. 262 lb-ft out of a 3.2 liter is not bad at all. In comparsion, the 3.2l out of the NSX only makes a wimpy 224 lb-ft.

but i think mikeman was saying if the bore and stroke and everything was the same then the motors will put out the same amount of torque. he is saying if all things are equal, they make the same amount of torque, so in result an inline 6 does not make more torque than a V6 as long as everything is equal. it may have the ability to have a longer stroke, which could lead to more torque but the configuration itself does not create more torque...

Just a observation.... never compare anything to Honda in Torque...... Hondas suck for torque. Nothing against them but my old ZX2 Escort with a 2.0L put down 115ft. lb of torque at the wheels before I got rid of it, and a 2.4L Honda put down 79ft.lb at the wheels...... Both of us were AT, mine had some mods, obviously, but nothing internal. Most Hondas I have seen are HP monsters at high RPM but not known for generating torque.

http://www.revhard.com/dynosheets.asp#TurboDyno


attn to the last dyno sheet on the page.... now that civic has some serious getup... if you could ever get the wheels to stop spinning...

I appreciate the comments on the reply and MikeMan I understand what you are saying and appreciate some of the clarification, I apologize some of the things I say come out garbled so I will try to be clear and verbose.
About the Harley motor a normal twin will fire 1 cyclinder every 360 degrees, but Harley's 60 degree Vee goes as bang wait 300 degrees, bang wait 420 degrees, bang and so forth. Thanks to SportCompactCar.
The angle of the pistons that move on the crank|(v6 versus straight6) effect the crankshaft design and the phasing of throws(different plane cranks), which in turn effects firring order, thus changing engine characteristics, and the engines balance can effect power ouput, in addition to inertia losses. In engine balancing there is primary balance by direction of pistons and counteracting the forces and secondary vibrations.
And there are many off road monster inline sixes, Old Jeep Cherokee, Old F-150s, and even a few Baja racers.

Every one has had excellent input but I think this needs more research.
;) keep on postin

And there are many off road monster inline sixes, Old Jeep Cherokee, Old F-150s, and even a few Baja racers.

Every one has had excellent input but I think this needs more research.
;) keep on postin

Your statements seemed very confusing as well as not very accurate. Explain the Plymouth slant 6.
A engine being it a V6, V8 or inline 6 all things being equal, in other words, exact same bore, same stroke well develop a certain amount of torque. The inline 6 isn't king of the hill. Take a 460 Ford or a 500 Cadillac and torque wise will blow the doors off any inline 6. But then were not compearing apples for apples. And to confuse the matter even more where do you place the Ariel Square 4. A engine with 2 cranks with each having 2 cylinders?
As for the Baja racers, being a advid and long time Baja racer and living in San Felipe, Baja California, Mexico, who uses a inline 6 in these races? If there is any I'd like to meet them, and if there is any the reason I've never seen one is cause I passed them at about 140MPH and didn't see them.

I dont know too much about Baja Racers, that may be the only thing incorrect. You are only telling me of specific engines, maybe if you had tryed to understand, different engine profiles(cylinder configuration, # of camshafts/position) will produce different engine characteristics (powerband)torque delivery, but then again I may not be as clear in my wording so please be patient. and I never said inline 6 is better than everything else. This is a forum is to discuss things maybe learn something, so if you could elaborate more, maybe we can find a more agreeable answer to the
inline or V6 question.

Back in the early days the engines used in cars were flathead 4's, flathead inline 6's, 8's, an flathead V8's, V12's and V16's and overhead valve inline 6's. They were all under square engines, meaning that the stroke was bigger than the bore. Some had over 5" stroke and were limited to lower RPM's by todays standard engines but made lots of torque. Piston speed being the limiting factor, most only turned 5.000RPM range in racing trim. In 1954 the automobile made a major change, General Motors came out with a overhead valve V8 that was over square, meaning the bore was bigger than the stroke. They put it in there Old's and it was a killer car. Within a very short time both Ford and Chrysler came out with OHV engines, but Ford was behind in technology and there engines just weren't up to the GMC and Chrysler engines. A few of the old diehard customers still wanted the long stroke high torque inline 6's so Ford and GMC continued building them, but Chrysler dropped the inline engine from there line. The following year, 1955 Chevy came out with a small block 265" OHV V8 and the rest is history as is the Chrysler Hemi. These new engines didn't develop the torque the old inline 6's did, but over time the engines kept getting bigger and the technology more refined and we had the era of the super cars.
Then came the Japs. Refining our technology, built short stroke, big bore engines that turned unreal RPM's and developed mega torque and HP. Reaching there limits with the inline 6's they built V6's, to shorten the cranks and save space in the engine bay. The inline 6 because of it's lenght has a tendency to flex the block and break the cranks. Once again the American Mfg's. were scrambling to keepup with the New developments. As the results look at what we have today.
But now the Jap's are at it again. They have super short stroke, big bore engines that turn over 12,000RPM. Why is this so important, well a engine turning that RPM needs lots of gears to keep it in the power band and with overdrive can run deep gears in the rearend making a car move out quick and have a high top speed.
Take a 3.5L V8 with a 2.52" stroke and you have a engine that well rev beyond anything ever dreamed of in the past.
Now if you want lots of low RPM torque go with a long stroke inline 6. (excluding the short stroke inline 6 Jap engines). If you want something that moves quick, go with the modern short stroke engines that rev like crazy. If you want to always win, build the biggest engine you can find.

I agree with completley, I was trying to state that naturally an inline six and its arrangment along the crank gives it very powerful throws on the crank thus high torque, cons like you said are limiting to length of the crankshaft and piston speed in long stroked engines. Vee six engines aranged at 90 degrees is near perfectly balanced can spin high rpms and still make usable torque. 2 engines with identical bore x stroke with different configurations would produce different torque curves. Like you said its all apon the application. Shit, I believe in the Formula one philosphy of high speed balance, the bore is usaully twice strokes length( 3 litre v-10 really short stroke) same with 4 cylinder crotch rockets, and even far to say honda S2000. but its all on application ;)

Ok, we'll take it a step back. In two revolutions of a 3L inline-6, all 6 cylinders fire. Regardless of their timing, the fact remains that they have just created energy from 6 power strokes, each created from 500mL of Fuel/Air mixture. Efficiency obviously robs some of the theoretical maximum from things such as frictional losses, incomplete combustion and flame propagation lag, to name a few.

When we expand this idea to a 6 cylinder engine in a vee formation, the same fact remains. In two revolutions, all 6 cylinders fire, each with the same individual capacity and the only way the inline is going to create more torque is if it's more efficient. However, efficiency is really only parametric, and seeing as (ideally) the frictional losses are the same and the combustion/flame propagation is the same (assuming same cylinder head design), the only way the inline can be more efficient is from its differences with vees.

Each cylinder itself fires at the same angle (with respect to its piston travel angle) in its revolution around the crank, regardless of vee or inline. Vee's really just have a different firing order. Even if you had all cylinders firing at 0 degrees on the crank, its still going to make the same average torque over two revolutions as an engine with the cylinders firing in order, throughout the two revolutions. Because of this, you cannot conclude that either inline or vee is more efficient.

The only thing I can come up with that makes people think that inlines produce more torque, is that alot of the vee's out there are still pushrod or SOHC because this is just easier.

Again, if I've made any glaringly obvious (or not so obvious) mistakes, please let me know.

Thanks Mike, like you say, it don't matter if a engine is tilted left, right, upside down, rightside up it's still a engine. It don't have feeling to direction pointed but works on certian princples and all things being equal well develop the same torque no matter what configuration the cylinders are in. The only difference being the inline 6's and 8's have long blocks and cranks and that's there weak link.

Ok, we'll take it a step back. In two revolutions of a 3L inline-6, all 6 cylinders fire. Regardless of their timing, the fact remains that they have just created energy from 6 power strokes, each created from 500mL of Fuel/Air mixture. Efficiency obviously robs some of the theoretical maximum from things such as frictional losses, incomplete combustion and flame propagation lag, to name a few.


Each cylinder itself fires at the same angle (with respect to its piston travel angle) in its revolution around the crank, regardless of vee or inline. Vee's really just have a different firing order. Even if you had all cylinders firing at 0 degrees on the crank, its still going to make the same average torque over two revolutions as an engine with the cylinders firing in order, throughout the two revolutions. Because of this, you cannot conclude that either inline or vee is more efficient.


Again, if I've made any glaringly obvious (or not so obvious) mistakes, please let me know.

no thats not it, did you guys read all of my post, a inline six and vee six DO NOT have the same type of crankshaft inlines have a more radical throw on crank, with cranks 1-6, 2-5, 3-4 are on the same phasing, at 120 degree angles between pairs. As two pistons come to rest at each 1/6 of a revolution. cyclinder configuration all depends on your appliction, and of course where you want your powerband to be and wide. yes differnt configurations have different firing orders which affect power also.

The only thing I can come up with that makes people think that inlines produce more torque, is that alot of the vee's out there are still pushrod or SOHC because this is just easier.

Most inlines that are made (except for say Skyline motors, M3s, etc) are built with long strokes like semi trucks have staight sixes, but there are some many underlying rules in power production by the laws of science. And about vee sixes having SOHC and pushrods not making wealthy torque is not true. I have F-150 with 4.2 litre vee six and it's pushrod and its make 255 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 rpm and fall off till little past max hp at 6000 rpm, and I used to have an S10 4.3 litre that was a DOHC that made 250 ft lbs @ 2800 (cams on both trucks were desinged for low end torque, yet pulls hard to 6000)but thats just an example
hope it helps out, this sure is damn good disscussion

This is more due to inline engines being simpler, and there clearly being enough room for the inline engine anyway. What about your average big 4wd? I can't actually think of a big 4wd that uses an inline engine. As far as I can remember, they're mostly V6/V8/boxer engines.

How about the Jeep? I could be wrong, but didn't jeep use I6s all over their product line? Are they not torquey?

How about the Jeep? I could be wrong, but didn't jeep use I6s all over their product line? Are they not torquey?

I don't think Mikeman knows much about the Jeep, unless they have them in Austrailia. Your not wrong, Jeep did use the I6's, and they were torquey. Long stroke. No one's arguing that long stroke makes torque. I think everyone is in agreement that EVERYTHING being equal an engine doesn't care what direction it's cylinders are pointed. Everything being equal means, same number of cylinders, same bore an stroke, same cam an valve configuration, same compression ratio, everything being equal.

but it does care what direction the pistons are in, engine configuration and position of the pistons along the crankshaft is major factor in power production.
and what exactly do you mean by everything being equal?

but it does care what direction the pistons are in, engine configuration and position of the pistons along the crankshaft is major factor in power production.

But the crankshaft just links 6 single-piston engines together. For an inline 6 or vee 6 to produce substantially more power than the sum of the 6 individual piston engines, that power has to come from the crank, which would mean that a rotating metal shaft is somehow producing force.

When you break it down to the physical principals of power, work and force, then you can see that by isolating a single piston and analysing how much net work it produces in 4 strokes, you can see that the crankshaft positioning cannot affect it. Seeing how the crankshaft isn't producing any force itself, the gross power output of the engine as a whole can never be greater than the sum of its individual pistons.

HOWEVER! This being said, there are other things to consider when using this simplified approach. Namely, bearing and seal friction becomes a factor when talking about 6 individual single piston engines and as such, the net power of an inline/vee will usually be more than the net output of its individual cylinders.

All a multi cylinder engine is, is a bunch of single piston engines sharing a common sump, crankshaft and camshaft(s). Each cylinder can be considered a closed system.

and what exactly do you mean by everything being equal?

Bore, stroke, cam specifications, ignition/fuel timing etc.

-Mike