Boxter S vs M3

Hey all.

I'm moving to Houston Texas later in the year and still can't decide what car to get. Cars are somewhat cheaper over there, so I'll be able to get something that I wouldn't have the money to get here.

So far top of the list would be an early ie 2000/1 E46 M3. I've always loved them, and I have to admit the prospect of owning one is quite exciting.

The other major player is an early model Boxter S. I love everything about them and they are surprisingly practical, sports car or not, so trying to rationalise on the M3 by virue of greater practicality isn't going to happen. Except that the M3 can carry 4 as opposed to two people.

The only thing is, and I'm not totally sure with the Boxter, I'm still young and want to be able to drift the car whenver I feel like it (and it's safe to do so of course). Every review of an M3 says it was born to slide. The Boxter being mid engined and having lots of grip makes me think it wouldn't be as easily picked up and steered on the throttle. Can anyone with experience with either cars comment on this please?

Other cars that are less expensive I'm considering buying and modding are:
some sort of NIssan like a 240 SX, I'm just not too sure of what made it to the States or not.
A porsche 944 turbo, or 968 sport
An E36 M3 (but I'd heaps rather the E46)

There's probably others that I can't think of or haven't heard of yet, so if anyone has any suggestions, please feel free to offer them here. I'm looking at up to 40 grand.

I'm not sure if turbo cars are as much of a hassle to insure over there as they are here, but being new to the country I'll be on the lowest rating. I'll be 25 by the time I get the car too.

Thanks

Also are there any good driving roads surrounding Houston, or am I heading to flat city?

Well, personally I'd say you can't go wrong with either. A Boxster can most certainly ass-slide as well, not quite as easily as an M3, but it's almost as slidable. The M3 does have the practicality edge, but that's the only other real advantage it offers.

Really neither is a bad choice, they are about the two best cars on sale.

both good options but allow me to sugest another one. Corvette Z06 you can get a mint condition model 01-02ish model for well under 40K. It has significantly more grunt than the germans which should elicite a higher percentage of grins;) and it has a very good track suspension. It circled the Nur bellow 7 minutes and that is quite a feat. The downside is that it will not be as refined as the germans and the cabin is made by rubermaid.

I love both of these cars. The M3 edges it in the engine compartment, and the Boxster has the superior chassis (although the M3 is more tail-happy). They're both excellent sports cars, so if i were to make the decision, it would come down to practicality... do you need the extra 2 seats & boot space?


It circled the Nur bellow 7 minutes
Ahem. Below 8 mins :p

Gotta go for the M3...good all arounder

Yeah, Boxter is a little disappointing in the power area. If I'm going to spend the cash on a porsche, I want it to perform like a porsche. I personally look at Boxters as the "entry level" porsche that people buy if they want the name but don't need the speed. The M3 is what you buy if you really want the performance. Just my opinion.

plus the boxster is ugly as since, but hte boxster isn't too slow. its atleast a low 14 to high 13 car. not too bad. but its just ugly.

The M3 is a beautiful car and a solid performer. I think its the better of the two choices.













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Go with the M3. The Boxster is Toyota's rendition of a Porsche, and it didn't turn out very well. The only other car I'd strongly recommend (and it already has been) is the Corvette Z06. It'll definitely be faster than an E46 M3, and cheaper too, but not nearly as luxurious or refined.

However, the M3 and the Corvette were both designed for performance on the track (although the M3 is certainly fun to slide around). If you just want a drift car and nothing more, I'd recommend buying a 95-98 Nissan 240SX or a 93-95 Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo and tuning them extensively; $40 grand into either one would create a drift monster.

I would definately go with the M3, that car is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go with the M3. More refined then a Z06, more fun then the Boxster, seats four. I love mine. Most fun I've ever had in a car that wasn't a 911.

Ahem. Below 8 mins :p



Crap what is wrong with me, i keep typing it wrong. Yea bellow 8

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I am still leaning towards the M3 actually. You know I had considered the Vette, I love the sound they make with a nice exhaust, but as a driver's car I'm sure it's not up there with the M car. Just the controls and interactions between car and driver is not as precise. Still, gotta love the way it looks, sounds and goes.

Later on I'll scracth my Porsche itch with a 911. So yeah I think the M3 will be the go to begin with.

Just out of interest, what sort of costs would I be looking at to have one on the road?

I'll be 25, no rating coz I'll be in a new country. Living in Houston. Do you purchase personal insurance in the States as opposed to insuring a specific car? Do you have an annual car registration payment like we do in Australia?

Thanks again.

I've got two words for you regarding the 'Vette.

LEAF SPRINGS

I've got two words for you regarding the 'Vette.

LEAF SPRINGS

Big deal, it still goes faster around a track than any car in its price range; the fact that it still uses leaf springs makes it even more humiliating for the competitors.

Heh, V8 Slayer, you want to know something funny? The all-conquering Shelby Cobra rode on an independent leaf spring setup. So did the Triumph GT6 and Spitfire.

The Corvette is not on some archaic buggy sprung solid axle setup, in fact its transverse independent leaf sprung unequal length a-arm suspension, front and rear, is one of the most sophisticated suspensions out there.

And the funny part is that Corvette has been using this setup since 1963!

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8941/IRSdrw.gif

Here's what the Vette's rear suspension looked like in 1963.

http://www.bilrevyen.no/aktuelle_modeller/chevrolet/images/Chevrolet_Corvette_C6_rear_suspension_0001_M448.jp g

And here's what it looks like now.

The "it has leaf springs" argument against the Vette's handling is pure bunk. The Corvette is one of the top handling sports cars in the world when you put it out on track, and for the price is an astonishing machine. Couple that to a healthy and blooming aftermarket geared around road racing and you can have one bloody fast Corvette.

Sorrry to throw a spanner into the works here.

I'm pretty well sold on the M3, but from other threads and some suggestions here, some other options look tempting.

I don't live in the States so I don't know too much about the American cars. I know the Vette and Mustang are very tunable cars. Theyr'e also cheaper than the M3.

Hypothetically, what would it take to get one of those two handling and balanced as well as the M3? I know hp wise they're already on par or better, so do they have enough base chassis stiffness to get up to M3 levels with some good quality adjustable spring/damper/swaybar packages? The M3 has a stiffened chassis over the 3 series and was tuned at the Nurburgring, so it has innate handling abilities. My only concern is that they still wouldn't have the same level of pedal feel and feedback for the driver, as well as pedals that are too far apart for easy heel and toeing etc.

Also I wouldn't bother tuning an M3, but an American car I would. I know there's heaps of bolt-ons you can get there. How much money am I looking at to get the zo6 Vette and new Mustang GT to 500hp?

And are they a realistic alternative to the M3 as an all round package?

Thanks:)

Sorrry to throw a spanner into the works here.

I'm pretty well sold on the M3, but from other threads and some suggestions here, some other options look tempting.

I don't live in the States so I don't know too much about the American cars. I know the Vette and Mustang are very tunable cars. Theyr'e also cheaper than the M3.

Hypothetically, what would it take to get one of those two handling and balanced as well as the M3? I know hp wise they're already on par or better, so do they have enough base chassis stiffness to get up to M3 levels with some good quality adjustable spring/damper/swaybar packages? The M3 has a stiffened chassis over the 3 series and was tuned at the Nurburgring, so it has innate handling abilities. My only concern is that they still wouldn't have the same level of pedal feel and feedback for the driver, as well as pedals that are too far apart for easy heel and toeing etc.

Also I wouldn't bother tuning an M3, but an American car I would. I know there's heaps of bolt-ons you can get there. How much money am I looking at to get the zo6 Vette and new Mustang GT to 500hp?

And are they a realistic alternative to the M3 as an all round package?

Thanks:)



well it should take nothing to get Z06 version of the vette to handle better than an M3 because it already should. On the other hand for the mustang it would take quite a bit of work even on the new improved platform.


Powerwise both the mustang and the vette should be easy to mod to some big levels although the vette should be easier since it has 1.1L of displacement advantage. The exception being the 03-04 stang cobras which are very easily upgradable powerwise. So if dragracing is your thing look for a cobra.

However if you would rather fancy road racing or handling in general both the M3 and Vette will be far superior.

For an al around package the Z06 its not the best pick. But if you don't have a family or this is your second car it should work just fine. The stang and the M3 both have the advantage of seating more people albeit in so so comfort since they are both coupe.

Af far as road feel there is only one way to find out which one you like: test drive them.

For all around package in I'd still say the M3 is the best, but a similar car that some like as well or more then the M3 is the newer Audi S4 4.2. Good handling, 4-doors, AWD.

yes the S4 is a nice car, no doubt aabout it, but doesn't have the grin factor of an M3. Too much grip:)

While I'm 90% sure I'm going to step into an M3, I'm curious as to some VERY minor mods I have in mind.

I've been down the modding route before, and don't plan on doing it again. The reason I like the M3 so much is that it appears to be pretty much spot-on right off bat.

I'm going to get one with 18's since they are the better size for spirited driving. Are the stock 18's a good wheel? Is there any advantage in getting another wheel of the same size but which is significantly lighter? (for less unsprung weight).

Brakes: I've heard they are powerful and have good pedal feel, but can fade very easily when driven hard. Has anyone had good experience with a certain brand of brake pads? Also, I've heard that for some reason the 'holes' in the front airdam are actually filled in. and removing the plastic adds much more cooling air to the front brakes and elimnates the problem. Is this true?

I love music, although I'm not a huge fans of bass bins on wheels. I like a good system to have good punch and have good quality sound at high volume from low range base to gigh range sounds. I plan on finding a car with the Harmon Kardon Hifi. Is this an adequete system or will I be looking at an aftermarket job?

I'm leaving the engine stock. I think for a daily driven street car it will have plenty of power. I was thinking of getting a carbon air box though just for a bit more induction roar, as I've heard that it soudns quite nice.
Is there any advantage to upgrading the exhaust? Will it make it really noisy? Are there any meaningful power gains to be had? If so, will it be ad the expense of bottom end torque?
What about ECU upgrades? They all claim to increase power and torque, while reducing fuel consumption. The M3 has a highly developed engine as it is, so how would there be many extra gains to be had by people who did not design the engine? And again, would the gains be offset by poor/rough general running, throttle response, flat spots in the power curve etc.

Are there gains to be had by adjusting the suspension geometry ie for shaper turn in, more under/oversteer etc. I assume if I'm getting a car that's a few years old I may be up for some new springs and dampers anyway. Has anyone had good experience with a certain package from, say Bilstein or anyone else?

Remebering that I don't care one bit about street racing. This car will be driven daily and needs to remain comfortable. I see no point in having a car with such luxuries as an M3, only to have a temperamental beast that rattles your kidneys. They handle well stock I know. I will be driven hard on the right roads, and I enjoy being able to drift the car when approriate, so it needs to remain adjustable and forgiving up to and over the limit. It also needs to remain driveable from idle to redline.

Thanks again for everyone's help so far. I hope this all turns out well:)

Ok GKR, I'm assuming you are looking at an M3 cabriolet since you are comparing it to the boxster s on your list. The M3 cabbie is more of a "boulavard cruiser" than the Porsche. The Boxster S is a true sports car, not a grandtourer like the M3. There is nothing wrong with the M3 by any means and I was considering it but I passed for a few reasons. First off the boxster s grips the road better. Your talking about .88g of grip for the m3 compared to .95g on the box s. The boxster is a stiffer platform due to the fact that it was not designed originally as a coup and then had it's roof cut off like the M3. The M3 cabbie weighs 3,750 lbs according to BMW. The box s weighs approx 2,950 lbs. 800lbs more is uhh, gonna make it feel like alot less razor sharp than the boxster on the track or street. The boxster has better balance and cornering traits due to the mid-engine layout. The M3 cabbie is marginally faster in a straight line due to fact that it is so heavy. It's 300lbs more than the coup. The hp/lb ratios on both cars are very close. If you want to cruise the strip with your pals then get the M3, if you want a real drivers tool then the boxster s is the best choice. Go for a test drive and you'll see what I mean.

Thanks porsche daddy. Actually I wasn't considering the Cab at all. Too soft. I want the coupe, for the reasons u've mentioned.

How would you compare the S to the M3 coupe?

The M3 is a great car. My father has an 00 m5 that and that car is wonderful for what it is. The M3 is a better pick if you want something more practical. I'm 24 yrs old. If I was 34 I probably would've gone for the bmw. You can't go wrong with either one, I would just go with the one that suits you best. Try to test drive a boxster s before you make your decision.

Yep thanks. I will try to drive both. My problem is being 24 also. In Australia, unless you walk in to a dealership with hundred dollar bills sticking out of your ears, you won't even get to sit in the car at my age.

GKR

Is that from experience or do you just think that? I was 24 when I bought my M3 about 2 years ago. I test drove both that and the Boxster. Porsche and BMW were more than nice. I didn't do anything special. Just walk in and ask.

What you should worry about is insurance. Most companies won't insure anyone under 25 for either car. I had to get mine through BMW Australia and they had a $5000 dollar excess. Pretty steep.

Yes from experince. They have insurance for test cars, but not at my age. Are you in the States? I'm in Oz at the moment, but may have more luck when I get to the States.

That's crazy. I live in Brisbane. The dealers couldn't care less how old I was as long as I was willing to shell out the money.

The insurance problem I encountered was when I was ready to take delivery. Not at the test drive stage.

But if you're going to the states, then it doesn't matter. You would never dream of buying those cars here anyway. M3's cost about $150,000 here (about $115,000 U.S.). In the States, it's about $55,000 very well optioned.

In fact, if you can afford a M3 in Aus, you should be looking at a Porsche Turbo in the States.

Yeah the ones I went to were on the gold coast. The thing was that the cars they had there were sold, and they weren't really keen in letting me drive them. Porsche and BMW were the same. I was actually thinking of sharing a lease on one, but now that I'll be in the States sooner than expected, I'll have to wait until I get there to get my car.

I was thinking about hiring a boxter or something for a day and doing it that way. I don't think they hire S versions, and I'm pretty sure no one does M3's, but it's probably the best place to start to get a drive of one.

Big deal, it still goes faster around a track than any car in its price range; the fact that it still uses leaf springs makes it even more humiliating for the competitors.

I've got 2 words for you too f-ing idiot
:grinyes:

The Porsche is light years ahead. For pure driving experiance, its a motoring king. You must drive one.

It is far more focused and honed than the M3, and makes no compramises. As for the 'Vette, don't make me laugh. There are prams that are faster than that pile of plastic, and with suspension modeled on that of the troy horse, handeling that requires standard fit "sick bags" on the dash board, and its vague looks, it needs to retreat with its ancient tail bettween its legs.

The engine is another thing. Its so unefficient, that baby rabbits and small wild flowers die as soon as you start it up, and a small cloud of acid rain forms over the rear of the car.

It has no place in this company.

You don't mince your words do you :lol2:

The engine is another thing. Its so unefficient, that baby rabbits and small wild flowers die as soon as you start it up, and a small cloud of acid rain forms over the rear of the car.

It has no place in this company.


Honestly I sick of this bullshit, If you have no idea what you are talking about please don't post. Especially with that tone. Flaunting ignorance is very inapropriate.


So lets see this horrible inefficiency of yours compared to another state of the art japanese engine (VQ35 from the 350Z):


350Z
Manual transmission 20/26

C6 vette
manual transmission 18/28


so the corvette makes an extra 113 HP and 126 Lb/TQ and manages to get better fuel mileage on the freeway and slightly less in the city compared to a state of the art modern japanese engine.


So you either consider the 350Z engine beyound ineficient of you have no concept of basic thermodynamic laws.

And next time you decide to compare the corvette suspension with that of a horse drawn chariot you might want to post your Nurburing times acheived by your cars and they better beat the Z06s sub 8 min time.

Edit: Oh and before you call me biased consider this. I generally prefer european sport cars over american ones, but I do give credit were credit is due.

the Z06s sub 8 min time.
Congratulations. It may have taken you 6,000 posts, but you finally have that right :lol:

Congratulations. It may have taken you 6,000 posts, but you finally have that right :lol:


I know after moths of grueling practice I finally cracked the secret. :lol:

The vette actually does get better fuel economy over the boxster s thanks in part to it's extremely tall 6th gear. It's definately not what you would call a "close ratio" gearbox. I believe mine gets 18/26mpg city/highway which is still very good for an open roof sports car. I've driven a C5 and it is a nice car for what it is, but it really doesn't feel all that "special." It has good power(the Z06 has chest flattening power) but the handling doesn't inspire agrressive driving compared to the boxster. If someone was considering a boxster I would definately tell them to go for the newer "S" versions with 260hp as older ones are underpowered(particulary the 97-99 2.5L 201hp versions). The new 05 987 boxster S has 280hp and is nearly on par acceleration wise to an automatic c5 thanks to it's smaller size and weight. One more thing that gets my blood pumping is the boxster's flat 6 engine sitting right behind the driver. It has an intake and exhaust note that is purely exotic and European that is a slice of heaven as it climbs torwards it's 7,200 rpm redline. The vette doesn't make nearly as beautiful music IMO. Another impressive exotic feature of the boxster is the speed activated spoiler that raises at 75mph and then lowers agan when speeds go below 50mph. Another side bebefit about the boxster is all the attention it gets from other motorists and pedestrians thanks to it's exotic good looks. The vette gets nary a second glance from other people because it's such a common sight. The Porsche is the car to drive when you want to "arrive."

The gears are longer in the vette because there is no need for shorter ones due to the massive powerband. The viper has even longer gearing.

As far as handling goes, remeber the z06 is far far above the C5 even the C5 with the suspension package.

Also for some of us aparances are not quite as important. Personally I prefer low key cars, hence my preference for collors such as black and gunmettal grey and absolute hate of crome.

But my choice of Z06 is based on the fact that I am mostly interested in club level racing and autox for which a used Z06 (around 30K USD) offers the best posible performance.

There's no question that the the Z06 gives the best bang for your buck performance wise. There are still untitled o4's that can be bought for around 40K now which is simply crazy. I do auto-x and am definately into performance but I like to stand out a bit and the vette simply can't deliver that as well as the boxster S. You are right about the vette having a broad power band, however, it reaches top speed in 5th gear not sixth which is not optimum. GM only gave the it an exorbitnately high 6th gear to make the the highway mpg acceptable. It certainly wouldn't be for performance reasons.

MPG is not a measure of how harmful an engine is, just how expensive it is to run. Co2 emmisions are the measure of engine efficiency.

Now I mentioned nothing about the Nissan 350Z, but seing as how Neutrino plucked that out of the twilight zone, then I shall compare it to the Boxter S.

The Nissan's Co2 emmisions rating stands at 273g/Km. Pretty average for a sports car. The Porsche 3.2 Boxster S stands at a mere 248g/Km.

The corvette: 310g/Km

To put into perspective, how bad that is, I shall make referance to the monstrous Bently Continental GT. It's 6.0 W12, that launches that massive car from 0-62 in just 4.7 Seconds, still manages to deposit only 410g/Km. And that is a big heavy luxury GT. Not a sports car!

Even the 911 Turbo, which is far more capable than any of the cars mentioned manages 304g/Km.

So there are the figures to back up my "bullshit", as you called it.

Thank you very much!

MPG is not a measure of how harmful an engine is, just how expensive it is to run. Co2 emmisions are the measure of engine efficiency.

Now I mentioned nothing about the Nissan 350Z, but seing as how Neutrino plucked that out of the twilight zone, then I shall compare it to the Boxter S.

The Nissan's Co2 emmisions rating stands at 273g/Km. Pretty average for a sports car. The Porsche 3.2 Boxster S stands at a mere 248g/Km.

The corvette: 310g/Km

To put into perspective, how bad that is, I shall make referance to the monstrous Bently Continental GT. It's 6.0 W12, that launches that massive car from 0-62 in just 4.7 Seconds, still manages to deposit only 410g/Km. And that is a big heavy luxury GT. Not a sports car!

Even the 911 Turbo, which is far more capable than any of the cars mentioned manages 304g/Km.

So there are the figures to back up my "bullshit", as you called it.

Thank you very much!


No i called bullshit on your performance and inefficiency claims.

An ineficient engine will produce low power and have high consumption. Well as you can see in the numbers i posted the exact oposite its true ergo your ineficiency claims were fake. The 350Z was provided as a comparison of a well known as respected engine.

Secondly you call the corvette slow:"There are prams that are faster than that pile of plastic". No sure what prams are but its clear the comment is derogatory and it implies a lack of performance from the part of the corvette. Now explain me this, how is a car capable of a 7:56 at the Nurburing and 1.26.8 on the Top Gear test track, considered slow? You must be used to driving F1 cars if those numbers are slow.

Plus can you point out a car from the fleet you claim to own that is fasted than a Z06 or C6 corvette? Several of the cars listed are significantly more expensive and you claim that the corvette lacks performance so lets see the track numbers proving they destroy that slow piece of plastic.


And to finish off, you continue to claim that the Corvette is this horible polutter car when you yourself drive cars that are far worse. Does the word hypocrit mean anything to you?
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/13360fuel.jpg

This is straight from the goverment website, and as you can see the vette actually releases slightly less greenhouse gasses than the boxter and far less greenhouse gasses than two of your cars.

So if the vette is so bad that "Its so unefficient, that baby rabbits and small wild flowers die as soon as you start it up, and a small cloud of acid rain forms over the rear of the car" what are your cars?

Stick it to em Neutrino! I'll have to say the only thing thats moving faster than the Vette is the diminishing rate of finally retired's credibility. Its tougher to fool people that actually know what they are talking about. :rolleyes:

Speaking of Top gear/5th Gear they picked the boxster S as their favorite all around sports car. I have the show on tape where Tiff Needell tears up the test track with an 03 box S. Anyone else seen this episode? It's called "our favorite sports car."

Speaking of Top gear/5th Gear they picked the boxster S as their favorite all around sports car. I have the show on tape where Tiff Needell tears up the test track with an 03 box S. Anyone else seen this episode? It's called "our favorite sports car."


I think I remember that show. And don't get me wrong I think the Boxter S is a great car, I just presented the Z06 as an option.

They are quite different cars, the Boxter is better suited for cruising since its more refined and convertible. Its main competitor as I see it is the S2000, and to a far lesser degree the Convertible vette.

The vette is better suited for people like me that prefer a good budget purist racer. Something like a Z06 or a Noble M12. Of course if money would be less of an issue the car of choice would be Stradale or maybe a GT3 Rs if they would offer it withouth those horrid painted wheels.

Btw the funny thing is that the boxter is in theory a better platform than the 911 except is sandbagged by porsche as to not be dirrect competition. Heck RUF is using the boxter as the platform for his custom made supercar.

Btw the funny thing is that the boxter is in theory a better platform than the 911 except is sandbagged by porsche as to not be dirrect competition. Heck RUF is using the boxter as the platform for his custom made supercar.

You are correct. Anybody that knows anything about weight distribution knows that a mid-engine car is superior on a race track. Just look at F1 or pretty much any decent car Ferrari or Lambo made. Even a Porsche rep conceded in a recent boxster article written by M/T that the if the 911 engine was dropped into a boxster the boxster would be the better car. That's why many serious boxster owners that track their car regulary put the 99-2001 296hp 3.4L carrera engine in their boxster. Even better a boxster owner could swap in the 315hp 3.6L, or if they really have the $$$$ they could swap in the new 350hp 3.8L from the carrera S and have a seriously fast auto that turns with the best.

Well, Don Panoz and Jim Hurtibise both proved, front engined is not necessarily inferior for chassis design, just harder to work around.

However, the Boxster is and always has been a very good handling car. I highly look forward to the new mid-engined Porsche coupe based on the Boxster platform.

maybe a GT3 Rs if they would offer it withouth those horrid painted wheels.
Take it back!

As for the Boxster, the only thing that is 'unpure' about it as a sports car imo is the fact that it's a convertible. Which, as Layla's Keeper said, will be remedied by the imminent 'C7S', i.e. a Boxster-based fixed-top coupe, with a 3.4l version of the 997's flat six. :D

A true sports car is a convertible with 2 seats and rwd. ie 356's,

ugh... ok.

the only thing unpure about the Boxster as a drivers' car is the fact that it's a soft-top.

All good?

I'm not denying the capability of the 'vette, but its all line speed. The chevy is useless on UK roads, as it cant handle the corners, it'll break your back if you hit a cats eye, and for the money they charge, it appeals to a market that actually give a toss about the fuel bill (which is considerably more than you yanks pay). I am a petrol head. And whats more, I couldnt care less how efficient my cars are. I will sacrifice anything to get what i want, and that includes bunny rabbits and wild flowers. But my cars will demolish a corvette on a UK B-road.

The RFL alone on a Corvette is shockingly high for its class, and thats before you have put petrol in the damn thing, and got to terms with driving a left hooker and convincing yourself that its a good thing. It demands far to many sacrifices and far to much money to run for it to be any use over here. In fact, I would liken it to a chocolate fire guard.

And that is the reason that nobody buys them! The figures speak for themselves.

ugh... ok.

the only thing unpure about the Boxster as a drivers' car is the fact that it's a soft-top.

All good?

I guess I can accept that. I think the benefits of top down driving out weigh the slight increase in flex and weight. Most well designed convertibles offer more than enough torsinal rigidity and light weight.

I'm not denying the capability of the 'vette, but its all line speed. The chevy is useless on UK roads, as it cant handle the corners, it'll break your back if you hit a cats eye, and for the money they charge, it appeals to a market that actually give a toss about the fuel bill (which is considerably more than you yanks pay). I am a petrol head. And whats more, I couldnt care less how efficient my cars are. I will sacrifice anything to get what i want, and that includes bunny rabbits and wild flowers. But my cars will demolish a corvette on a UK B-road.

The RFL alone on a Corvette is shockingly high for its class, and thats before you have put petrol in the damn thing, and got to terms with driving a left hooker and convincing yourself that its a good thing. It demands far to many sacrifices and far to much money to run for it to be any use over here. In fact, I would liken it to a chocolate fire guard.

And that is the reason that nobody buys them! The figures speak for themselves.


WTF is that?

Now you go again and claim It cannot handle the corners? Can you not read? It does the Nur in 7:56. And in case you are not familiar with it the Nurburing is full of nasty corners and bad surfaces. It also handled the lotus designed test track in 1:26.8.

And it will easily outhandle any of your cars espcially in back roads. And if you think your SL65 or covertible DB9 can outhandle it on back roads you don't know anything about sport cars. The C6 already destroyed the vanquish S on the TG track.

And now you don't care about polution, so what was with that ranting about the vette being a poluter???

And again the vette gets amazing gas mileage especially for its class.

WTF is that?

Now you go again and claim It cannot handle the corners? Can you not read? It does the Nur in 7:56. And in case you are not familiar with it the Nurburing is full of nasty corners and bad surfaces. It also handled the lotus designed test track in 1:26.8.

And it will easily outhandle any of your cars espcially in back roads. And if you think your SL65 or covertible DB9 can outhandle it on back roads you don't know anything about sport cars. The C6 already destroyed the vanquish S on the TG track.

And now you don't care about polution, so what was with that ranting about the vette being a poluter???

And again the vette gets amazing gas mileage especially for its class.

Well if this car is so great, how come you can count one one hand the ammount that there are in the UK. If this car is all you make it out to be, why are they not flooding the shores?!?

That archeic leaf set up would leave that car in a hedge row if I drove it the way I drive my SL!

I took out a Callaway Corvette on a track called Castle Combe that a friend of mine owns that is notorious for its adverse cambers, and tricky esses. I kid you not when I say my life flashed before my eyes. It was as if the stearing was connected to the rear wheels. It couldnt corner without stepping out of line, the noise from the engine was particulaly distressing, and the general feeling of detatched-ness and lack of control were alarming to say the least.

Now that was a 96 model. So when I drove a 99 model (on the road), I expected a little more. Now britain is not exactly renound for its sunny climate, and this day was a little damp, but in no way was it wet or greasy... But where I can power through apexes, and accelorate when leaving an island in my other cars, the vette totaly lacked the capability. It felt like the rear tyres were coated in lard or something. Now I like my cars to act with a little dignaty, and if i'm powersliding, and burning rubber everytime I move the wheel at speed, then I'll look like a bit of a prick. The Boxter is the pinical of responsiveness. It can react faster than the driver which is always a good thing. Its perfect balance, weighty stearing, and power more than make up for the bland looks.
And while I'm no profesional, I do collect some of my Mercedes on the personal collection programme, and have visited the Nur on three occasions on the return trip.

British Roads are not 6 miles wide, as they may be in the states. indeed a 3 lane motorway is about as big as it gets. You also need to realise that UK roads bare no resembalance to a race track. If you belive that to be the case, then you shouldn't posses a driving licence. A bit of fun is only human, but still...

Then specify that you cannot handle it, don't accuse the car of being a poor handler.

Yeah the vette its not a very forgiving car especially compared to something like the Mercedes Sl that in typical mer fassion outfitted it with all the 3 letter stability control systems known to man (as Tiff put it). Most moderns mercs have so many nanies they drive themselves. The vette is far more of a drivers car than the new Sl will ever be, you have to know what you are doing or it will bite your head off. The same is true of most purist sport cars Noble, Mosler, Gt3, Viper GTS etc...

Bottom line is that it has been proven by many pros that the car can handle and it has the numbers to prove it.

finally retired

I know where you're coming from, I'd love to be able to agree with you, but I can't.

I hate American cars. I hate them with a passion. I own and M3, and I wouldn't be caught dead in a 'Vette. But facts are facts. the C6 stock will kill my car stock. As I understand a lot of Brits share my snobbishness (is that a word?) when it comes to American cars but you're taking it too far. A GT3 driven by Walter Rohl will barely keep up with a C6 if it can do 7:56 around the N'ring.

And unfortunately, the cars you have are posers' cars, not cars to set handling standards by. Maybe the SL65 will overtake very well on the motorway, but not much else.

You got to adimit that SL she has looks pretty tight. It has to be the best looking merc I have laid eyes on. Like you said though, it's a sporty luxary cruiser and not a sports car by any means. Nothing wrong with that, but I can't see it outhandling a vette. The thing weighs nearly 4,000 lbs and comes with an automatic only. It's hard to sip latte's and talk on the cell while rowing the gears.

V8Slayer you are correct. I happen to prefer european sport cars too, and I'm downright a hardcore Ferrari tifoso but I'm a firm belived that credit must be given where credit is due.

True the vette has plenty of fauls such as rubbermaid interior and a harsh ride but you have to make some sacrifices to offer perfomance for a good price.

There is one trend of european sports cars that worries me though: automatization and electronic nannies. Speed sensitive steering on the 997, sequential as the only offer on the M5 or the Stradale etc...You have no idea how relieved i was to hear that you can shut all that off in the new F430 and that a proper open H gate manual will be offered on it.

It's hard to sip latte's and talk on the cell while rowing the gears.

LOL this reminds me of a recent San Francisco trip where I passed a guy in an X5 with one hand on a caffe and the other on the phone. Must have been one of those self steering X5s;)

LOL this reminds me of a recent San Francisco trip where I passed a guy in an X5 with one hand on a caffe and the other on the phone. Must have been one of those self steering X5s;)

lol, X5, the ultimate self driving machine...

With regards to the SL vs Vette; I haven't driven either of them but I do read a lot about cars and I hold Evo magazine in very high esteem. They rate the Sl55 as a very good car, and the Vette less so. This is as a driver's car too, not just an all rounder. They feel that the Vette is good up to a point (its performance is of course fantastic), but beyond that it starts to get a bit ragged and it still doesn't have much in the way of feedback through the wheel/pedals/seat etc. This is for the C6 too.

Today I rode in a 996 911 and it just confirmed for me how great a car they are. So solid, so bullet proof. I also laid eyes on a new 997 S last night and my god was it awesome. Looked so nice:) I can't wait for the day when I own a 911.

Until then, I look forward to getting my first real car in the States. If the Boxter S feels anything like the 911, it will be much harder choosing between it and the M3.

Until then, I look forward to getting my first real car in the States. If the Boxter S feels anything like the 911, it will be much harder choosing between it and the M3.


I don't think you will be disappointed with the boxster s. The interior is nearly identical to a 996 except there is no back seat of course. The car shares several other parts with the 996 including the brakes and six speed tranny. In fact from the front seats forward you would be hard pressed to know the difference. What year was the 996?

A GT3 driven by Walter Rohl will barely keep up with a C6 if it can do 7:56 around the N'ring.

Actually the mk1 GT3 became the record holder when it lapped the 'ring in 7.56; when the mk2 GT3 came out, it went another 3 or so seconds quicker. I think i read somewhere the 997 Carrera S laps very close to the new GT3 though. So Porsche is still the Nurburgring daddy ;) :D

As for the C6, i have to admit im not a big fan of the styling. It lacks flair imo. But the Corvette has made substantial leaps in terms of ability over the past two generations which few Brits acknowledge. I don't know if it's as polished as a 911 or Ferrari but then it costs half as much (in the Ferrari's case). The lack of RHD does not make it any less of a car, but is a silly mistake on Chevrolet's part if it wants the UK to take the car seriously. But that is not a valid reason to attack the car's ability.