'91 V6 Camry Starter Contacts Replaced...What else?

1991 Toyota Camry V6 2VZFE

Two days ago when I went to start my car, I just got the dreaded clicking noise from the starter. Since the car wasn't in a good place to work on it I continually tried to start it over the course of the day and eventually succeeded. After I initially got it restarted, I could again start the car normally, but the starter was obviously laboring so I removed it and replaced the contacts (they were showing considerable wear). I haven't reinstalled the starter yet and would prefer to replace/service anything else within the starter that could be causing the problem rather than reinstalling the starter only to find out that the contacts were not the source of the problem.

I'm technically inclined, but have little vehicle repair experience, and no experience inside of car starters. If there are any components beyond the contacts that I should inspect/replace/service before I reinstall the starter, I would appreciate a heads up. If there are any tutorials to help me do so, that information would also be greatly appreciated (I searched the forums and didn't find any, beyond the contact replacement tutorials).

Thanks.

The only thing that I recommend that you do is take the plunger out and take a wire brush to it where it touches the contacts. I did this the last time I had to replace the contacts in our '99 and it's worked perfectly ever since.

Thanks for the reply.

I've already cleaned the plunger off where you speak of, I should have mentioned that. Anyway, should I clean the rest of the plunger assembly and reapply grease, or just put it back in the way it came out?

I'll be reinstalling the starter tomorrow, and crossing my fingers that the problem is solved.

No dice. I reinstalled the starter and although it seems improved, the starter is still obviously not performing as it should. I can somewhat reliably get the car started now after 3 or 4 seconds of running the starter (it turns much too slowly), but 5 days ago it would start immediately. So it seems that the worn contacts were a contributing factor, but not the main cause of the problem.

I can rule out the battery as the source, but beyond that I'll need help tracking down the problem. Although I cant truly rule out something electrical as the source, I believe the problem is still with the starter
(there are no other problems with the car that would indicate its electrical). What else within the starter should I check/replace (if anything)?

As I said, I'm technically inclined but have no experience inside starters, so if you feel its a job I should just turn over to a mechanic let me know (although be aware that I don't want to spend the money if its not absolutely necessary).

Thanks.

Why don't you just go out and buy a starter? It looks like you can get one for $100.

http://www.partsamerica.com/SelectParts.asp?SourceArea=&PartType=123&PTSet=A&Description=Starters&SourcePage=PartTypes&SearchFor=Starter

I could do that, but:

There is no guarantee that it is the starter. I'm confident that it is, but my novice diagnosis could always be wrong. I don't want to spend $100 (most likely more) only to find out that it has been wasted and I have to spend another few hundred bucks to fix the real problem.

or most likely:

Assuming that my diagnosis is correct, why would I spend over $100 for a problem that I could fix myself for $10 or $15. I don't mind spending the time and effort to fix the problem myself, if its possible. I'd like to exhaust all the typical/most likely/probable solutions regarding the starter before I go out and invest 1/20th the value of the car into a single component.

Many auto parts stores have equipment to check the starter for you for free. Make a few phone calls and find one in your area that provides this service. Then take it over to them and have them check it out. This will at least tell you if the problem is still within the starter or somewhere else. Then you can go from there. If it is the starter, take it back home and take it apart yourself and see if anything obvious is wrong with it. If you can't fix it, you can always just put it back together and take it back to the parts store and get a new one.

Good luck.

Mike

Well, I removed the starter again and this time I tested its functionality by jumping it directly to the battery as a few starter troubleshooting guides suggested. The starter functions perfectly. The solenoid engages and the motor runs when connected directly to the battery.

So now I'd have to say that my problem is electrical in nature. I borrowed a DMM from a friend and tested both starter electrical connections. They both pass 12v and seem to be functioning correctly.

Now when I attempt to start the car, half the time I can hear the solenoid engaging with a click, the other half of the time there is no click from the solenoid but I can hear a buzzing under the dash, which I'm assuming is the starter relay.

What I don't understand is why the starter motor doesn't run when I hear the click from the solenoid...its proven that it functions correctly out of the car.

I suppose I'll be going to check the ignition switch next, but if anybody has any other ideas, let me know. I'm getting close to breaking down and taking it to a mechanic, but I hate to put a few hundred bucks into a car that isn't worth a few thousand.

Having the starter out of the car and seeing it turn doesn't mean it works correctly under load. Test the amperage draw the starter has when trying to start the car. It should be somewhere about 200 amps. If it's up to 350-400 amps, then the starter is drawing too much current and faulty - slow

I can't make that check because the DMM I have will not test for amperage that high.

I agree that the bench test doesn't prove the starter is performing correctly, but it would rule out the starter as the source of the problem I described above. Half the time the solenoid engages, half the time it does not. Futhermore, on the occasions that it does engange, I'll usually hear the clicking for a second or two, and then it cuts off.

The starter is under no load during engagement of the solenoid, so the bench test would replicate its function during that phase of operation (with the exception that it may receive less voltage/current from the ignition wiring system...but then that would be the source of the problem). The only cause (that I can think of) is that it is not receiving reliable electric flow, as it does in the bench test.

I'm sorry, but you STILL haven't proven to me that the starter is good. It might perform differently once it gets under a load condition. Also, it's probably the original 13 year old starter, and I would expect it to go bad by now.

Usually I make sure my charging system-alternator is working properly, if that doesn't help, I replace the starter for $100 and if it doesn't work after that, then I take it from there. But I never had a problem like you describe where a new starter didn't fix it. You might have a blown diode or a bad winding on the starter itself.

It's always nice when you can fix things really cheap, but sometimes you have to throw money at problems to make them go away. Saves time, and time is money.

Go buy the starter at Pep Boys, keep it clean. If it doesn't solve your problem... return it!

Well, I took your advice and picked up a remanufactured starter. I figured I didn't have much to lose. I installed it and initially just got clicking. I jumpered my battery to a running vehicle and then turned the key and got a little slow cranking, but not enough to start the vehicle. So I removed the starter and inspected the contacts and bench tested it just to be sure...both ok. Then I reinstalled my old starter and got the same thing, slow cranking with intermittent clicking.

The engine is not seized or overburdening the starters unless it developed over the course of a few hours the day I began having this problem (when in the morning it started immediately as normal, drove 1 mile, then wouldn't start a few hours later).

My old starter performs identically to the new starter, both in the car and out. I believe the problem to be electrical at this point...unless I have the worst luck ever and got a remanufactured starter that operates identically to my old one.

Would it be safe to install the starter and then short the solenoid contact screw to the "ignition loop contact" with the key turned to start? That would give both direct power from the battery...then if the car started I could remove the short (maybe use a screwdriver to short the two?) and the problem would be revealed as something between the ignition switch and the starter.

Thanks for the help so far.

Replace the starter relay and clean the battery ground connection on the block and the battery terminal connections (if you haven't already). If this doen't do it, replace the positive cable to the starter.

Sorry, I was sure I had a winner. Are you sure your battery/charging system is good? Is your engine ground good? Starter relay? Highly illogical.

Cleaning the battery terminal connections was the first thing I did during troubleshooting of the problem. I also cleaned the battery ground connection a while back during this problem. It tests out fine with the DMM. The alternator showed no signs of performance drop before or during (the few times I got it running) this issue. Even if it is a problem, its secondary and can be handled later since I have jumpered the car during attempted starts just to be sure.

I'll work on replacing the electronic side of things and see if it helps.

A DMM won't test the quality of a high-current connection under load unless you measure voltage drop across a connection while under load. Just measuring the resistance of a connection is useless for a high-current connection. Under starting load, a high-current connection should have 0V difference between the two sides of the connector or terminal. I suggest you test all the high current connections for voltage drop.

When I try to start and get the click of the solenoid engaging but the starter motor doesn't run it suggests only one thing (to me at least). The circuit from the battery to the solenoid contact screw, through the plunger to the starter motor and then to ground must not be complete. Does this seem logical to anybody else? I have tested the battery side solenoid post and it is at 12v potential, so that would suggest that there is a problem with the ground side. I will revisit ensuring the ground side of things is in good order. But let me know if you agree with my deduction...im not an electrician.

Thanks.

Your logic fails because you are assuming that 12V indicated on a contact means there is adequate current flow. All that really means is that you have an electrical circuit - it doesn't tell you anything about the capacity to flow current. Check voltage drops across wires and connections under load. You should not get a voltage drop across a good connection under load. If you do, the resistance of the connection or wire is high enough to bring the voltage down - bad connection or wire. Test all the connections and cables for voltage drops.

Did you replace the starter relay as I suggested earlier?

I jumpered directly from the solenoid contact on the battery side to the battery post. Turned the key and got clicking from the plunger, but no starter motor action. This would rule out a failure of the original electrical wires running from the battery to the starter.

I haven't replaced the starter relay. I don't think I have the expertise to do it without at least some guidance, but I can't find anything that would help me online. Plus, I don't even know its location (except somewhere under the dash). Chiltons does not mention the starter relay. In addition, I get reliable clicking of the solenoid engaging which would suggest that the ignition circuit is working fine.

The main problem I am trying to fix is why the starter motor won't turn WHEN THE SOLENOID DOES ITS JOB. The circuit must not be complete. If I get the starter motor running when the solenoid performs fine and still have starting problems, then I will move on to the relay. Step by step.

This discussion is way over this newbie's head but I am having a similar problem on my 89 Camry wagon. Intermittently, it takes 6 or more ignition turns to get the car started , usually on a cold start up . I don't believe it is the battery or charger because the lights/radio etc. always work. I have had the starter replaced to no avail. AS THIS IS MY PRINCIPAL CAR (and it has low 65,000 mileage), I would very much appreciate a private message if/when you come up with the correct solution ! Thank you.

@CriticalMass - Have you done the same thing for the ground side of the battery? Make sure you are getting a high-current connection when you jump these wires. A half-ass connection is no improvement over a faulty one.

The fact that your starter works, but poorly is a tell-tale sign of insufficient current getting to the starter or high starter current requirement (faulty starter). Since you have replaced the starter, it must be insufficient current - faulty wiring or relay.

Replacing the starter relay is just a remove and plug in a new one. Go to a Toyota dealer with your VIN number and they will be able to order a relay for you (probably cheap money) and show you where it is. Probably in the fuse box by the battery. It may also be your high-current cables from the battery. When you try to start the car, measure the voltage drop from one connector to the other on both cables. If there is any voltage drop, the cable cannot flow high current.

You know what, I did find the solution...I appreciate the help from everyone. Nobody provided the exact answer, but the suggestions got me on the right track.

This discussion is way over this newbie's head but I am having a similar problem on my 89 Camry wagon. Intermittently, it takes 6 or more ignition turns to get the car started , usually on a cold start up . I don't believe it is the battery or charger because the lights/radio etc. always work. I have had the starter replaced to no avail. AS THIS IS MY PRINCIPAL CAR (and it has low 65,000 mileage), I would very much appreciate a private message if/when you come up with the correct solution ! Thank you.

I would try and explain the solution, but it's probably over my head to do so, so I won't bother. Of course I'm sure you are the authority since you "had the starter replaced" and don't even do the work yourself.

Jesus, comes in here and tries to hijack the thread, the whole time insulting me over it and then has the nerve to ask for a PM when I solve the problem. Quality. Have fun with the troubleshooting olaneubie3, I'm sure someone of your brilliance can figure it out.

Your solution probably won't help him. There are too many possible fixes to this type of problem. What was your solution?

CM, if you're still around, what was your fix? Have the 91 Camry 2vzfe, and I've been stumped by this one for about 6 mos. now. Latest attempt was replacing starter solenoid contacts & cleaning the washer-like one around the plunger; still have the 1 click from somewhere, maybe the starter relay? BTW, is that under the dash to left or under the hood, only thing similar under the hood that I saw was EFI relay, same part, I think. Probably should do the voltage drop check on certain circuit components; probably a highly resistant component, cable, terminal, ground, etc. They did seem to all have continuity, but I suppose even a tiny resistance at high amps can cause a noticeable voltage drop. So far have also replaced battery, wife did that; taken apart neutral safety switch and cleaned contacts some appeared burned a bit and reinstalled as accurately as could; replaced starter/solenoid with rebuilt, twice; replaced ignition switch, wasn't it so returned it, thankfully; and put a heat shield over the solenoid. Kind of at a loss now, but I'm going to go ahead & swap the starter relay, if I can find it, costs only about $14. Seems to be a very heat/engine heat related problem; with colder weather it rarely happens, except seemingly after a 10 mile drive or so. I know heat can increase resistance, and that may very well be it, but, if so, where?

Boy! This has been driving me nuts! Check out this link, talks a bit about starter motor windings and starter relay problems:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.tech/browse_thread/thread/447aa17a89e309e0/8adbca0245bd30c6?lnk=st&q=%22starter+relay%22+91+Camry&rnum=4&hl=en#8adbca0245bd30c6

In my case, thinking it may very well be the the starter motor windings shorting upon expansion (especially since seemingly heat-related), a possibility I've heard of (link above)--I've replaced it twice with rebuilds; probably why one should perhaps buy a new starter as opposed to rebuilt. They probably don't do any rebuilding regarding the stator or rotor, probably just the more consumable parts. Also, as the fellow says, they're probably cold when they test the motors they rebuild and don't display the heat-related problem.

On another front, I'm going to stop by Toyota and see if they can confirm the starter relay location; again, the relay I thought was it under the hood states "EFI", the 3 possibilities behind the driver side kick panel stated, I think, "TAIL" and "defrost" (or "defog"????), not sure. The 3rd was way back behind the kick panel; that's the one I replaced not knowing for certain whether was the right one. If not, I can just pull it later.

May have to drop some serious cash for a new starter. Don't really know yet.