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abs.. to disable or not to disable???


AkinaDriftKid15
12-23-2004, 12:14 PM
my dad hates abs and he said when i get a skyline he is going to turn it off im trying to tell him i will probly end up in flaming pile of metal on the side of the road and he responds with. "ABS is for idiots who don't know how to drive." so who is right me or him... and i also heard from a friend that there is some trouble with the skyline proportioning valve if thats true how would i go about fixing it.

my3rdskyline
12-23-2004, 05:38 PM
my dad hates abs and he said when i get a skyline he is going to turn it off im trying to tell him i will probly end up in flaming pile of metal on the side of the road and he responds with. "ABS is for idiots who don't know how to drive." so who is right me or him... and i also heard from a friend that there is some trouble with the skyline proportioning valve if thats true how would i go about fixing it.
See Mike:
http://blacklinux.com/files/images/mainimages/mainimage16.jpg
See Mike with NO ABS!
http://blacklinux.com/files/images/mainimages/mainimage30.jpg

Show your dad this and tell him he's an idiot.

Skyline_R32_Canada
12-23-2004, 06:01 PM
:owned:

SkylineUSA
12-24-2004, 09:27 AM
my dad hates abs and he said when i get a skyline he is going to turn it off im trying to tell him i will probly end up in flaming pile of metal on the side of the road and he responds with. "ABS is for idiots who don't know how to drive." so who is right me or him... and i also heard from a friend that there is some trouble with the skyline proportioning valve if thats true how would i go about fixing it.

I agree with your Dad. I will be taking it off of my race GTR. If you can really drive, you do not need it. No offense Mike, but I am talking about the guys that spent their lives in cars racing them. His Dad seems like he knows what he is talking about, so I back his Dad on this one.

AkinaDriftKid15
12-24-2004, 10:15 PM
Thank you skyline USA my dad has been racing go-karts since he was 10 and cars since he was 15 so id like to back my dads up now i've got alot more trust in him now that i've some of you guys to back up his words.

Moppie@af
12-24-2004, 10:40 PM
There isn't a driver on the planet who can out brake a modern ABS system.
Even the early ones from the late 80s and early 90s require a level of skill only found in a top level professional race drivers to out perform them in the dry.

The only time ABS can inhibbit braking performance is when braking on gravel. On a loose surface being able to lock the wheels and dig into the hard surface underneath can help in braking, however modern systems designed by Holden and Ford in Australia can now out brake the average driver in even very loose surfaces.

ABS was banned from F1 for a very good reason, braking was producing G forces the drivers couldn't stand, there was a risk they might black out, or suffer damage to thier retinas and other organs.


If you remove it on a race car then its a matter of personal choice, but be aware that the guy behind you with it still fitted will be able to out brake you at the next corner.


If you remove it on a road car then your an idiot, your putting not only your life in danger, but also the lives of anyone you share the raod with, including your passangers.

If your that in-experianced a driver that you need to learn how to correctly control your braking, then you should not be buying a Skyline.
Start with something smaller, prehaps a 1.3l pulsar, or other small hatch back. Learn to drive that first, and get plenty of time in a Kart and or race car with your father in controlled circumstances.

Circuit Theory
12-25-2004, 01:49 AM
I agreee with your dad in regards to it being for idiots in most cases. However my guess is you are very young and still learning how to drive. I think you should keep the ABS on your car since it sounds like it will be a daily driven car for you and you seem to still have some driving abilities to sharpen. Such as conquering panic braking vs controlled braking. In response to a reply above ABS is very superior to normal brakes while on a consistent and smooth surface but once a car is driven hard and weight starts being shifted from side to side and front to back and in many other direction the ABS is not superior because it senses slippage when in fact that tire is not slipping it is simply off the ground or light enough to not be spun so the ABS reacts to these inconsistencies and does it's job even if it is not the right timing. Another thing to mention is that F1 abs or any racing type abs is set up way different than your grandma's cadillac ABS or even a Skyline's abs.

Moppie@af
12-25-2004, 02:08 AM
A traction control system might have trouble with a wheel being off the ground, but a modern 4 channel ABS system will not.

An ABS system merly modulates brake pressure to ensure the wheels are held at the point of almost locking, but not quite, the absolute traction limit.
Its exactly the same thing a good driver does when braking hard, only its able to do it much faster and with a much higher degree of precision since a computer processor works much faster than any human brain.
Modern 4 channel ABS systems are not at all phased by having one or all 4 wheels up in the air.

Older 2 and 3 channel systems did have problems on FWD set ups prone to lifting an inside rear wheel under hard cornering (watch an old Toyota Corona or Nissan Primera Touring car). Getting one wheel in the air is a condition experianced almost exclusivly by race cars, if your doing it in your road car on the road you are an idiot waiting for an accident.
Anyway, the old 2 and 3 channel systems were only able to modulate both back wheels as one channel, so if one left the ground, or experianced significantly less traction than the other, then both wheels would recieve the same reduced braking pressure, meaning the wheel with lots of traction would not be working as hard as it could, throwing off brake balance and causing all sorts of problems for a race car being turned into a corner (usualy understeer).

Modern 4 channel systems are of course unphased, the wheel with less traction gets less braking force and the wheel with the most traction gets its usual full amount. There is no loss in brake bias, and no un-expected change in handling.

And although the ABS systems used in F1 were tuned very aggresivly, they have not been used in such a long time that modern systems on road cars from the likes of BMW and Mercedes are infact now more sophisticated.

SkylineUSA
12-25-2004, 04:26 AM
There isn't a driver on the planet who can out brake a modern ABS system.


This true, but it depends on the track, and what the car is being built for. My car is going to be a 1/4 miler, so ABS is not big on my list.

Moppie@af
12-25-2004, 04:36 AM
This true, but it depends on the track, and what the car is being built for.


The track is irrelevent, unless your building a rally car :)
But the car does matter, adding any serious brake upgrades, or making radical changes to the suspension can effect the ABS system, after all its only designed to work with the standard set up.

SkylineUSA
12-25-2004, 04:39 AM
I reffering to those ralley tracks that go from dirt to road. I totally agree with you of course, if its all tarmac ABS is the way to go.

my3rdskyline
12-25-2004, 04:41 AM
my dad hates abs and he said when i get a skyline he is going to turn it off im trying to tell him i will probly end up in flaming pile of metal on the side of the road and he responds with. "ABS is for idiots who don't know how to drive." so who is right me or him... and i also heard from a friend that there is some trouble with the skyline proportioning valve if thats true how would i go about fixing it.
I say if you are driving on the street you'd be a fool to get rid of it. On the track... well that's up to you.

SkylineUSA
12-25-2004, 05:39 AM
Here is a good site to read up on ABS.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/abs_bigbrake_122701.htm

SkylineUSA
12-25-2004, 06:05 AM
Here is a good site to read up on ABS.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/abs_bigbrake_122701.htm


My ultimate point behind my post is that ABS can actually intervene (and it's unnerving when it does) long prior to impending wheel lockup, depending upon the car / programming.

I can see were your Dad does not like ABS, there as been more than occation where I knew I could out brake the ABS, and was almost involved in an accident, but given the situation it really depends on when the ABS is active if its an advantage or a henderance.

Moppie@af
12-25-2004, 06:35 AM
My ultimate point behind my post is that ABS can actually intervene (and it's unnerving when it does) long prior to impending wheel lockup, depending upon the car / programming.



Thats kind of the idea, its ment to get in and take over before you lose control.
And as mentioned by myself, and the article you posted a link to, it will only have problems if you in some way alter the braking system in your car beyond what it was designed to deal with.

as been more than occation where I knew I could out brake the ABS, and was almost involved in an accident




Care to describe those cicimstances?
As mentioned before there is no way your brain can modulate the brakes enough to hold the tyres a traction threshold which not only allows maximum braking force, but also gives you control.
Unless your of course driving on gravel, in which case you shouldn't really be driving a road car at speeds that could get you into trouble.

AkinaDriftKid15
12-25-2004, 08:08 PM
Thanks... :lol:

SkylineUSA
12-26-2004, 11:46 AM
Care to describe those cicimstances?


Put it this way, both times were in an 89 Supra on dry asphalt. You could feel that the ABS working, but it felt no where near the threshold was at for the car. Given if I was in a bend and slammed on the brakes, I would have been more than happy to have the computer do its work, but not on a straight away. Ever since then, I have had a slight disdain for ABS. To tell you the truth, it might have just been that car, I do not know?

Moppie@af
12-26-2004, 05:07 PM
Put it this way, both times were in an 89 Supra on dry asphalt. You could feel that the ABS working,


That explains a lot.
In 89 it would have had a quite primitive 3 channel set up, and there would have been quite pronouced pulsing of the brakes.
As an example, Iv watched an '90 Prelude with ABS doing stops during a driver training day at a race track. There was lots of noise, and the tyres were visable locking and unlocking prehaps 2-3 times a second.
The car didn't appear to brake as quickly as it could have, and a semi-proffesional race driver got the same impression you did. He could do it better.
He did several stops with the ABS on, then the fuse was pulled and he tried again. It took him several attempts to get close to the same distance, and on his final attempt bettered it by less than a meter.
He admitted that had it been wet he would have stood no chance of matching the ABS, and the ABS gave him much more control over the car.

As noted in that article you posted a link to, modern 4 channel systems are able to monitor and control wheel speeds 10 times a second, or faster.
On the same track day a new M3 showed up. It stopped with what I can only describe as smooth ferocity, all 4 wheels held at thier optimum traction limit for the hardest possible braking.

SkylineUSA
12-27-2004, 02:06 AM
I'll buy that, so the older versions pretty much sucked.

I take it the R32 GTRs have 4 channels?

Moppie@af
12-27-2004, 06:21 AM
I take it the R32 GTRs have 4 channels?

I gonestly don't know, you own one or two :D

I do know that at the time everyone else was only useing 3 channel systems, they were the limit of the technology.
However the GTR was some years ahead of other cars in terms of its on bourd electronics, and its quite possible it uses 4 channel ABS. Given the sophistication of the rest of the AWD system I would not be surprised.

nismo_power
12-27-2004, 07:38 PM
heres another to attest to having ABS in the car as a good thing......my car was totaled 2 months ago because i decided to delete the ABS when i upgraded my brakes and threw on my new suspension. it was raining and a car cut between traffic and ended up in front of me, i slammed into the guy going 50 miles an hour while his car was at a dead stop. my brakes locked and i just slid into him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/punkerjon/crash002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/punkerjon/crash001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/punkerjon/crash003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/punkerjon/crash004.jpg


EDIT: sorry! i didnt know the pics were so big on my host.

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