Heel toe downshifting ?'s

Any pointers? I have an o4 wrx and regularly double-clutch to downshift- my problem is when I'm going into corners with speed, I have to let go of the brakes to punch the gas, I know you can do this while still braking, using the heel-toe method, but I haven't been able to do it with good feel and proper rev-matching. It seems as if my feet are too big or something. Do you brake with your heel and clip the gas with your toe or vise-versa? Is it just hard to do in wrx's because of pedal location? Any help is greatly appreciated. I just don't like the feeling of decelerating, then letting off the brakes to puch the gas, then getting back on the brakes-might as well wait for the synchros to catch up and shift normally.

There is no reason to double clutch with modern transmissions. The only time I have ever double clutched repeatedly was in a Miata 8 hours into a 13 hour endurance race with a clutch going bad and a transmission that had already lost 1st, 2nd, and 5th gears.

I heel and toe downshift all the time. I've done it for so long it's habit at this point and doesnt really require any conscious effort.

I would think, keep in mind I haven't driven a WRX, that if your pedal faces are located to far apart depth wise, it would cause a great deal of difficulty to perform this method effectively. Maybe if you could find a way to bring the throttle pedal more level with the brake pedal it would make life a little easier?

The WRX is not that difficult to heel and toe downshift on with the pedals in the stock position. The biggest issue with the WRX is that there is a lot of brake pedal travel which takes some getting used to. It is easier in the STi than the non-STi's, but it's prety easy throughout the entire Impreza line.

The most difficult cars I have driven to heel-toe downshift on with the pedals in their stock location is a 1991 Ford Probe GT I had, and a 1993 Ford Mustang Cobra R, two cars in which you would have thought the designers would have considered it.

I got some smaller profile shoes and that helped alot. I think I just need to practice it more.

Beacuse I wear size 14's, I cant heal toe shift that easily in most cars, so I brake with me left, and gas with my right. My heels NEVER touch the flor, they are always on the pedal's. I also only wear sock's when I drive so I can grip the pedals with my toe's (I can pick up alot of shit with them) But that seems to work best for me, whether its driving on the streats, or racing autocross.

The "heel-toe" is used to shave the time it takes to MOVE your brake/clutch foot side to side...by slanting it OVER both pedals only your ankle is working to select which pedal is going to be pushed.

here, u should read up on this. http://www.tcsracing.org/heelandtoe.htm

it takes practice. good luck and be careful.

The "heel-toe" is used to shave the time it takes to MOVE your brake/clutch foot side to side...by slanting it OVER both pedals only your ankle is working to select which pedal is going to be pushed.

No, heel-toe is used to match engine RPMs to drivetrain speed when downshifting enetering a corner. At the limit of a car's braking capabilities, and most prominent in RWD cars, but still true to a degree in FWD and AWD cars, not properly rev matching can upset the balance of the car by slightly locking up the drive wheels. This can cause the drive wheels to have a left lateral force (long physics discussion as to why it's left, way beyond the scope of this post), and can cause serious problems. Done correctly, you are using 2 feet on all 3 pedals simultaneously.

If you're looking to shave time from the brake to gas pedal transition, learn how brake with your left foot. I brake with my left foot everywhere on track where I'm not downshifting. This is a highly advanced technique, takes a lot of getting used to, and is not reccommended in a manual car for street driving.

Right, I should have said "using your left foot to operate both the brake/clutch"...you shave time. The RPM/tranny/downshift part was (I thought) a given, but I didn't mention it because I didn't want to seem condensending to ROBMXER. Thanks for spotting my mistake.

ITRGTR's post gives a good site to read up on the "left foot clutch/right foot brake-gas" method, which is easer to master. Great thread guys.

Right, I should have said "using your left foot to operate both the brake/clutch"...you shave time.

That would have been even more incorrect.

itrgtr, is Al Abadillado still in cone crazy?

interesting...i was always taught to not hit the brake and gas at the same time. it would make more sense to drive like normal, but heel/toe the two left pedals, and keep your power foot isolated.

Hitting the brake and gas at the same time is harder on the engine, driveline, and brakes, if the car is in gear, but can be useful if you know exactly why you are doing when you're doing it. Done properly, heel and toe downshifting is easier on the driveline of the car at a very slight cost of fuel milage.

I just sat here reading all these post and wondered if I was the only one who used my right foot on gas / brake all the time, That was how I grew up racing and do it all the time even out of a race car, but I never heard anyone trying to clutch and brake left footed, sounds kinda fishy and haphazard as fas as really twisting ankles around, I think I will stick to the old tried and proven way

My feet are wide enough (well...regular-width 13's...) that I can have enough of my right foot on the brake pedal to slow down, and have enough left over to blip the throttle when I downshift...
I tried "double-clutching" a couple of times, but I wasn't really any good, and I didn't feel like destroying my tranny...

GRIND 'EM TILL YA FIND 'EM BOYS

i never knew heel toe was so hard i dont drive yet but my brother was a newb to high performance cars when we first started watching initial d whitch was sometime early last year anyway after watching the cartoon he tried doing the heel toe technique and he done it really well you dont even fell the down shift oh he also had a turbo pulsar

he can heel toe from 5th gear....my dad has 2000 impreza gx and my bro cant really heel toe on that car due to the pedal placement the throttle is lower than the brake pedal

itrgtr, is Al Abadillado still in cone crazy?

actually i dont know. i havent seen him post in a while

first thing i wanna say is that any one who heel/toes teh brake adn the cluthch must have some weird knees cusae that jus doesnt work for 99% of ppl...i tried n i couldnt even get it to go much....and as far as heel toe shifting the other way...it just takes a lot of practice to blip it right on teh downshift...

...the throttle is lower than the brake pedal

I would think that would be a GOOD thing, taking into account the swing of the brake pedal when you're on the brakes...IDK...

I would think that would be a GOOD thing, taking into account the swing of the brake pedal when you're on the brakes...IDK...

This is correct. Ideally, you want the brake pedal and gas pedals to be at the same hight when you're fully on the brakes and fully off the gas. If the pedals are close enough together, this allows you to have the ball of your foot on both pedals at the same time, allowing you to roll your ankle or use the side of your foot on the gas. IMO, this is the easiest setup to modulate both the brake and the gas, and the most comfortable.

get some seat time and practice it constantly... it'll come to you evetually. After a while you start using it on every turn (as long as your not coming to a complete stop... then at that point your just doing too much) . Anyway, it'll be almost natural as you get better at it.

I heel-toe my 2004 WRX even when I'm daily driving. Actually, I learned to heel-toe on a Saturn, where the pedals are way in the wrong positions. I've heard many, many people complain about their pedals being in the "wrong position." I got in their car and showed them how to heel-toe correctly. It just takes practice. LOTS of practice. It's an unnatural motion, especially after you've already learned to drive stick the easy way. Heel-toe using the same foot on the clutch and the brake will never work. The clutch pedal is essentially an on/off switch. You're basically just clicking a button with one foot and modulating the power of the brakes and the gas with the other foot, if you're doing heel-toe correctly. And despite the modern transmission's wonderful synchro system, the balance of the car at the limit will suffer horrendously if you do not learn to heel-toe before taking your vehicle out on the track. Even an AWD beast like an STi or a WRX will just whip right around on you if you make the tires angry. Smooth and slow = fast.

Definately feels unnatural to me.

To rev-match, instead I usually brake a bit (while still in gear) until I get down to a decent RPM range ... then put in the clutch, blip the throttle a bit, and downshift ... then get on the gas/break as I get off the clutch, depending if I want to slow down more or punch it.

I've come to some understanding as to how simultaneous gas/brake can help controlled sliding in rally racing, but I don't see any benefit to street driving / track racing.

well, technically you are using the gas/brake simultaneously but it's not transmitted to your tires. During the braking process you have the clutch depressed so when you "jab" the gas it's just revving the engine and once you have the right rev you release the clutch and so 'technically' you are still in the braking process just in a lower gear. That's the whole point of it..

No... when you "jab" the gas, you're in neutral, not with the clutch depressed. That's the whole point, is to be completely out of gear with the clutch linked up to the driveline so that stuff spins up to the right speed. If you do that with the clutch still in, you just burn more clutch when you re-engage.

The process:

1) begin braking with the ball of your right foot (continue braking throughout all other steps)
2) depress clutch pedal with left foot
3) move shift lever to neutral
4) release clutch pedal
5) use the heel of your right foot to depress the gas pedal and rev the engine to the appropriate RPM (it will take getting used to the process before you begin to feel the correct RPM range for each downshift)
6) release the gas pedal
7) depress clutch pedal with left foot
8) select lower gear and move the shift lever
9) release the clutch pedal and the brake pedal
10) roll back into the gas and turn the corner

All of this happens within 1/3 of a second or so. It takes LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of practice to get it right. So get out there and practice in traffic! :icon16:

Definately feels unnatural to me.

To rev-match, instead I usually brake a bit (while still in gear) until I get down to a decent RPM range ... then put in the clutch, blip the throttle a bit, and downshift ... then get on the gas/break as I get off the clutch, depending if I want to slow down more or punch it.

I've come to some understanding as to how simultaneous gas/brake can help controlled sliding in rally racing, but I don't see any benefit to street driving / track racing.

There are huge benefits to being able to use the gas and brake at the same time in road racing. The most obvious is when braking entering a corner, being able to properly heel-toe downshift in a RWD car does not upset the balance of the car in the braking zone, where not properly rev matching can upset the balance, causing the rear wheens to lock up enough to make the rear wheels pass the front wheels. Not good.

Other benefits include slightly reduced time from the brake to gas transition, being able to keep the turbo spooled in a turbo car, and as another way to balance the car and get it exactly where you want it to go. Though it may not seem like much, if over the course of a lap it makes you 0.1 sec/lap quicker, then...you're 0.1 sec/lap quicker, which is the whole point for trying for a fast lap time.

where is the best and safest place to practice (free)? I know there is a downside, if any, to heel-toe, but I've been practing and i've been eithering pressing the brakes too hard or the gas too hard. I like the way SabreKahn explained it, but can you put more detail into it? thanks!

You can practice around any turn. I did it on some back roads I used to take to get home from my school to my parents house (about 1 hour drive). You don't have to drive fast to practice. In fact, don't drive fast. Just get used to the action. If you do it right, you wont feel the car shift. It becomes natural after a while. Then try it on a track when you feel ready.

hmmm..can someone who is very experienced in this explain to me/us beginners how to do heel and toe step by step? thanks! everytime i do it, it goes to neutral, high engine revs and trying to down shift (during a turn)...help!

In my Integra I found it difficult to "heel and toe" with acutally using the extreme ends of your heel and toe, I had to push the brake down with my toes and push the gas with the rightside part of the middle of my foot. I found that much easier. Once the "heel and toe" felt natural, I did it all the time in almsot everycar I drove just because it makes it more fun to drive.

go over to www.radicalmotorsport.com and go into the videos and images section and download the video called fancy footwork. it is someone driving round the nurburgring but it only shows a view of the racers feet so you can see him heel and toeing. sounds pretty good too

Just something for you guys to ponder about, I heel-toe the irish way, heel on brake, toe on accelerator, it's just what works for me cause of the pedals and what I'm comfortable with. Mainly I do it to keep the car from stalling, my cars stuffed.

hmmm..can someone who is very experienced in this explain to me/us beginners how to do heel and toe step by step? thanks! everytime i do it, it goes to neutral, high engine revs and trying to down shift (during a turn)...help!

haha did u not read my post? its on the first page. http://www.tcsracing.org/heelandtoe.htm

oh btw...in general, u should be completing ur shifts BEFORE turns, not during.

Just something for you guys to ponder about, I heel-toe the irish way, heel on brake, toe on accelerator, it's just what works for me cause of the pedals and what I'm comfortable with. Mainly I do it to keep the car from stalling, my cars stuffed.
that's how i need to do it with my dads truck, the pedals are too far apart for me to reach both so tha's what i do. i haven't taken any car out racing so im mostly just practicing on the streets at around normal driving speeds so they might be close enough if i brake really hard.