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Moderating Issues


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CivicSpoon
12-13-2004, 08:16 PM
I am taking this time to voice some concerns and issues of the way somethings are being moderated, more specifically in the Honda/Acura forums. I came to this decision after many members have voiced concerns and issues, and I expect many of the members will join this discussion in a calm reasonable manner. And also by taking the advice that J_Swigz gave: "If you have a problem with the moderating being done, you're welcome to voice your opinion in our hot or not section. Otherwise, don't talk shit without a good explanation." http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=331434
This will not become a personal attack or thread of disrespect, I repeat will not. If you can't come in this thread without calling names, throwing insults, or otherwise personally attacking someone; then please do not post in this thread. Because this is not what this thread is about.

Let me start out of an example of what kind of things I'm refering to when I say there are issues. One recent (today) example is the banning of Ricochet. Now I don't know what was said between him and the mosds after being temporary banned, and frankly I don't care because it is none of my business and I don't want it to be my business. With that being said, I don't agree with him being banned to begin with, again I'm using this one instance as an example only. He did infact make comments about someone's choice of a paint job, and in a rude way. However, this kind of thing goes on every single day in the Honda and Acura forums. Many people do this, some just to get a reaction, some who feel the need to push their beliefs on others, and some who have been down the road before and realized it was a bad idea afterwards. I myself and guilty of doing this, I'm not going to pretend that I don't. However if this sort of activity can cause someone to be banned, then there should be a lot more people being banned for doing much worse. If you do to most forums on AF, you are guarenteed to see minimum of 1 thread bashing Hondas and Acuras. Unless it's specifically in one of the Honda/Acura sub forums, then rarely is there anything done about it. Here's an example from the Celica forum entitled "civics suck" :http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=210499&page=1&pp=20&highlight=civic+ricer The thread went to 5 pages and not a single mod stepped in and closed it or banned any of the members insulting Civics. Unfortunetly for me trying to show examples this is all I could come up with because when I search it only allows 4 pages of results.

Next I'd like to mention some issues with some moderators giving people attitude based on the fact that they don't agree with someone. I have no experience of being a moderator on any forum, let alone a forum the size of AF. However I assume that being a moderator or admin is a very stressful job. You see people breaking rules, flooding boards, being banned and returning to flood board, etc. However there should be no reason for a moderator to ever jump on someone, call names, or otherwise insult someone. As explained by crayzayjay "Contrary to what you may believe, being a moderator does not make you exempt from following the AF Guidelines. Being an ass to members may get you banned." And one of the Guidelines of AF is "Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack." With this being said one instance of moderators abusing this rule this took place last month in an IWC thread. The thread was about Related Links, as some of you may recall this thread. It has also since been deleted, so I can not show quotes of proof from this thread. However I will explain further without the use of proof. In this thread there were 2 or 3 moderators who came into the thread and proceded to insult and be rude to any and all members who didn't like the links at the bottom of the page. I do remember one of the mods who made these comments, off the top of my head, but for sake of discussion there is no reason to name anyone; especially since I'm not making this thread to cause any problems. called those members "whine asses", "whiny bitches", among other things such as ridiculing someone for spelling errors. I personally asked them to discontinue such comments and not resort to insults; just because they didn't agree. However none of the moderators were ever banned for this conduct, whereas other members have been banned for such.

I'd like to say that for the mass majority of the time all moderators and admins for an incredible job. I just feel that a few from the moderating staff should really think about what is fair. As the old saying goes "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." In short meaning; it's not fair to ban someone for something that a few moderators have done themselves before, as well as it's not fair to ban 1 person for something that another has done with no repercussions. I think everyone could agree on this. I'd also like to state that since MiataRacer and Eckoman_PDX have become mods, they have done a great job and can clearly handle the responsibilities of moderating the Honda Civic forums and more. They have been on the H/A forums for long enough to know the regulars and know how the new members act. I understand that a moderator is a moderator, but if a problem arises on the H/A forums I feel they should be the ones to fix the issue. I know that neither would ever show favortism to a member based on how long they've been there. This last part is my personal opinion, and I know that not everyone (if anyone) will share that thought. And like I said, I understand that a moderator is a moderator. I just feel that they know people on those forums better than a moderator who isn't there on a regular basis.

Again this is not ment to be a "bash fest" in any way shape or form. And if anyone who wants to turn it into one should steer clear of responding, because it's not needed or wanted. I just wanted to get some of these issues out there. And I have tried to explain it the best of my ability. I mean no disrespect to anyone, these are just things that need to be said. Everyone please feel free to respond in a repectful and intelligent manner. And feel free to contact me or respond in this thread if you have any comments or questions on anything I've written. Thank you for reading.

TheSilentChamber
12-13-2004, 08:40 PM
I'd just like to say I agree with everything civicspoon said and stand behind this thread 100%.

honda_luvr_2000
12-13-2004, 09:07 PM
i haven't been around as long as sum others (civic spoon), but i have been on fairly consistant since i found this place. as of lately i have been seeing an increase in the banning and by mods i haven't seen in a while (if ever). so i guess in other words i too agree w/ civicspoon. i do remember the IWC thread he was referring too. kinda hypocritical if u ask me. if this is ban worthy, then i guess ban me. i know this is a worldwide forum, but i believe everyone is entitled to their opinion when they feel they r being treated unjustly. from personal experience, Ricotech, as harsh as he might have been from time to time, was very helpful and knowlegdible. if we'r getting rid of our seniors, who's gonna be left to help the rest?

jon@af
12-13-2004, 09:25 PM
I am taking this time to voice some concerns and issues of the way somethings are being moderated, more specifically in the Honda/Acura forums. I came to this decision after many members have voiced concerns and issues, and I expect many of the members will join this discussion in a calm reasonable manner. And also by taking the advice that J_Swigz gave: "If you have a problem with the moderating being done, you're welcome to voice your opinion in our hot or not section. Otherwise, don't talk shit without a good explanation." http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=331434
This will not become a personal attack or thread of disrespect, I repeat will not. If you can't come in this thread without calling names, throwing insults, or otherwise personally attacking someone; then please do not post in this thread. Because this is not what this thread is about.

Thank you for doing this in a respectable manner.

Now I don't know what was said between him and the mosds after being temporary banned, and frankly I don't care because it is none of my business and I don't want it to be my business. With that being said, I don't agree with him being banned to begin with, again I'm using this one instance as an example only. He did infact make comments about someone's choice of a paint job, and in a rude way.

If you do not care what was said, or what happened, then you would be apathetic to the banning altogether nor would you have cited him as an example. The fact of the matter is, Ricochet had been given many warnings in the past, as well as temporary bans. Due to the fact that he was indeed quite the contributor to the Honda/Acura forums, he was shown leniency in his time of removal. However, there comes a point in every case such as this when one pushes ones luck, and he reached that point. He was openly offensive in the thread, making slurs towards homosexuals, and implying that those who did certain things were in fact homosexual. I don't believe that a member should be looked down on for choice of dress. I'm not sure if this answers any question for you, perhaps you could elaborate as to why you do not agree with Ricochet being banned.



However, this kind of thing goes on every single day in the Honda and Acura forums. Many people do this, some just to get a reaction, some who feel the need to push their beliefs on others, and some who have been down the road before and realized it was a bad idea afterwards. I myself and guilty of doing this, I'm not going to pretend that I don't. However if this sort of activity can cause someone to be banned, then there should be a lot more people being banned for doing much worse. If you do to most forums on AF, you are guarenteed to see minimum of 1 thread bashing Hondas and Acuras. Unless it's specifically in one of the Honda/Acura sub forums, then rarely is there anything done about it. Here's an example from the Celica forum entitled "civics suck" :http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=210499&page=1&pp=20&highlight=civic+ricer The thread went to 5 pages and not a single mod stepped in and closed it or banned any of the members insulting Civics. Unfortunetly for me trying to show examples this is all I could come up with because when I search it only allows 4 pages of results.
Though we do have many moderators on our staff, it is an international group of folks. That being the case, we are not all online at the same time and we cannot always catch things that occur in every forum. If there is a thread that you notice somewhere that you feel is getting out of hand, by all means report it. There is an option at the bottom of every post that allows you to give a reason for reporting it, and when you confirm it, it is sent to every moderator that is on the site who uses email (which is the majority).



Next I'd like to mention some issues with some moderators giving people attitude based on the fact that they don't agree with someone. I have no experience of being a moderator on any forum, let alone a forum the size of AF. However I assume that being a moderator or admin is a very stressful job. You see people breaking rules, flooding boards, being banned and returning to flood board, etc. However there should be no reason for a moderator to ever jump on someone, call names, or otherwise insult someone. As explained by crayzayjay "Contrary to what you may believe, being a moderator does not make you exempt from following the AF Guidelines. Being an ass to members may get you banned." And one of the Guidelines of AF is "Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack." With this being said one instance of moderators abusing this rule this took place last month in an IWC thread. The thread was about Related Links, as some of you may recall this thread. It has also since been deleted, so I can not show quotes of proof from this thread. However I will explain further without the use of proof. In this thread there were 2 or 3 moderators who came into the thread and proceded to insult and be rude to any and all members who didn't like the links at the bottom of the page. I do remember one of the mods who made these comments, off the top of my head, but for sake of discussion there is no reason to name anyone; especially since I'm not making this thread to cause any problems. called those members "whine asses", "whiny bitches", among other things such as ridiculing someone for spelling errors. I personally asked them to discontinue such comments and not resort to insults; just because they didn't agree. However none of the moderators were ever banned for this conduct, whereas other members have been banned for such.

As much as I hate to admit it, I was among those moderators who were being ridiclous in the aforementioned thread. I cannot speak for the others because that is not my place. I can, however, agree that looking at my comments, I could have handled them differently. However, if you have an issue with a specific moderator on the site, you should feel free to private message them about the said issue. Though we may seem harsh at times, it is something that happens to everyone at any given point, depending on the issue. We do not want the members of this site to be afraid to message the moderators with a piece of criticism for fear of being banned. If you do have something to mention to a moderator about his or her performance, contact them privately and respectfully, and the response will, I would very much hope, be civil.

Igovert500
12-13-2004, 09:34 PM
I can understand your concerns with some of the topics you posted about...and I'll do my best to address them, but I don't have specific knowledge of a few.

Over the last month or two, there has been plenty of trouble in the Honda/Acura forums. I know personally, one repeat offender was definantly getting on my nerves. We are moderators, but we are also human too. There will be times when we slip up, and don't word something the best we could have, simply due to stress, anger, frustration...whatever.

I know I can screw up and therefore when it comes to members who post inappropriately, I try to pass on a few warnings regarding the way they post, prior to taking any action. Essentially giving them the benefit of the doubt.

That being said, don't presume that you guys know the entire story everytime. There are situations where members will step out of line outside the realm of public posts. I am not implying any specific people. But PMs and emails are exchanged, there are factors beyond the posts that you all see. AF has rules that when broken result in immediate action...no warnings necessary.
So simply because you don't percieve justified grounds for a ban, doesn't mean that a good reason doesn't exist.

I appreciate your concern and see where you are coming from...but at the same time, see where we are coming from. Nobody is perfect, but we do our best to keep this forum running smoothly. Decisions were made, and we stand behind them.

CivicSpoon
12-13-2004, 10:20 PM
If you do not care what was said, or what happened, then you would be apathetic to the banning altogether nor would you have cited him as an example. The fact of the matter is, Ricochet had been given many warnings in the past, as well as temporary bans. Due to the fact that he was indeed quite the contributor to the Honda/Acura forums, he was shown leniency in his time of removal. However, there comes a point in every case such as this when one pushes ones luck, and he reached that point. He was openly offensive in the thread, making slurs towards homosexuals, and implying that those who did certain things were in fact homosexual. I don't believe that a member should be looked down on for choice of dress. I'm not sure if this answers any question for you, perhaps you could elaborate as to why you do not agree with Ricochet being banned.
I definently agree that any offensive comments about someones sexuality, race, or gender; is out of line. I'm not trying to defend his actions by any means. But on a weekly basis I see many people call other or things "g**" or "ghey". It doesn't mean it's right, but it does happen on a regular basis. And I personally (my opinion only) don't think it's ever ment in a literal way. It's kind of like how people use the word "retarded". Technically it means slow, but many people use it as a word for autistic people. Yet when the "average" person uses that word, they don't mean autistic or slow; it's become a common word for some. So basically I feel if one person gets banned for using such a word then anyone who uses it should, or no one should. I think a warning would be the best option for such actions, but you already stated that he had been warned repeatedly. Maybe instead of using him as an example I should have said in a situation similar to this one, at least the information that was publicly out there.

I know I can screw up and therefore when it comes to members who post inappropriately, I try to pass on a few warnings regarding the way they post, prior to taking any action. Essentially giving them the benefit of the doubt.
That being said, don't presume that you guys know the entire story everytime. There are situations where members will step out of line outside the realm of public posts. I am not implying any specific people. But PMs and emails are exchanged, there are factors beyond the posts that you all see. AF has rules that when broken result in immediate action...no warnings necessary.
So simply because you don't percieve justified grounds for a ban, doesn't mean that a good reason doesn't exist.
I completely understand what you're saying. That's what I ment by not knowing the whole situation and not wanting to know, because it's none of my business. I absolutely agree that if a member steps out of line with a moderator, as you put it, outside the relm of public post, there there is no excuse for that. It's written in the guidelines: "If you've been caught or accused of a wrongdoing don't get irrational."

Thanks to both of you mods for responding to this thread, I appreciate it.

honda_luvr_2000
12-14-2004, 12:22 AM
CivicSpoon, thank u for beginning this thread and linking it in u'r sig. i prolly wouldn't have found it as easily, had u not. hopefully it will shed a little more light on the issue of banning that most don't catch onto as quickly

As for the mods that responded, thank you also for clearing up sum for me. like i had said i haven't been here as long as others, so i did not know the whole story, and i guess i failed to realize there could have been, and apparently was, action taken outside public view by those banned that deserved such action. I guess we all can take sumthin from this thread and hopefully many others will too. maybe sum will learn there actually r consequences even though it's so impersonal (the internet is). and it doesn't matter who or wut u r, if u break rules then u have to deal w/ it.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 07:15 AM
CivicSpoon, I'd like to echo Jon's comments by thanking you for doing this in a respectful manner.

I definently agree that any offensive comments about someones sexuality, race, or gender; is out of line. I'm not trying to defend his actions by any means. But on a weekly basis I see many people call other or things "g**" or "ghey".
I understand what you mean.

In my opinion, all of the moderators on the team are smart individuals, and are able to differentiate between the use of such words ('gay', 'retarded', etc...) as negative comments about an object / event, or as insults to other members. In the latter case, it is unacceptable behaviour and will lead to a punishment. The severity of this punishment depends on a multitude of factors - is the member capable of a positive contribution / does the member have a history of flaming, etc...

Quite frankly, a member that has been around as long as Ricochet had knows that posting abusive comments is not in keeping with our guidelines. Wanting to "educate the 16 year olds" or having a respected car is not an excuse. Nothing exempts you from following these rules (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/guidelines.html), and there can be NO excuse to flame another member.

If you are unable to express your opinion in a reasoned, polite manner, and have to resort to name calling, AF is not the place for you.


I completely understand what you're saying. That's what I ment by not knowing the whole situation and not wanting to know, because it's none of my business. I absolutely agree that if a member steps out of line with a moderator, as you put it, outside the relm of public post, there there is no excuse for that. It's written in the guidelines: "If you've been caught or accused of a wrongdoing don't get irrational."

Please bear in mind that every action we take as moderators is logged by the administrators. Should there be any disagreement over a decision taken by a moderator - such as unfair dismissal in this instance - the decision is reviewed. In fact, even if there isn't disagreement, the majority of cases are reviewed, or at least discussed.

Point being? We are not, as some like to think, dictators. Some members have been reinstated. A testament to the moderator team's judgement - and the process we have in place - is that most of these members have gone on to act up again and been re-banned - with the full backing of the site admins - completely throwing away the chance they were given.

The average member probably thinks the moderators lounge around, banning the people we dislike. In fact, i've just received a PM that said so. You couldnt be further from the truth. The time we spend moving threads, deleting spam, re-structuring forums, and getting rid of unwanted content is all unpaid, mostly tedious, and above all designed to make AF a more agreeable place for you to surf. All that is left for you is to follow the AF User Guidelines (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/guidelines.html) that you agreed to when you signed up. As for the moderators, we are responsible that these rules are adhered to throughout AF and do our best to lead from the front.


Thanks to both of you mods for responding to this thread, I appreciate it.
We are doing what is asked of us as moderators of this site. Our goal is to keep this huge collection of forums clean, useful, and interesting for our members to navigate. That means listening to constructive comments, so keep it coming.

GScivic7
12-14-2004, 08:03 AM
All I have to say is that this is very reminiscent of what happened a couple years ago. After our purehonda forum went down we migrated over here and I will proudly say that AFs Honda board has gained it's status because of the former PH members. The forum started going to shit just like it has been for the last couple months and people started getting banned left and right. Now from what I know there are like a total of 3-4 original PH members left on this board. I guess history really does repeat itself and I don't want to be a part of it.

GTStang
12-14-2004, 10:16 AM
I have only been a Mod for about 3 months so I think maybe I can give a good middle ground view between Mod and member.

I spend about 50% of my time on AF moving post were they should be, closing threads or trying to diffuse possible flaming threads, and deleting/moving spam. This stuff becomes old and annoying real quick let me tell you. I only do this for the Mustang forum which as a whole is one of the easier ones. You don't realize how much time and effort Mods spend wit this stuff until you are one.

The reason I bring that up is many people think we just spend our time cruising AF looking for people to ban which is just not the case. Also many think that we are just renegade Mods roaming the badlands of AF with our Ban guns blazing. The truth is almost 98% of the bannings except for easy clearcut one's like spamming and such are brought up and discussed in the Moderator Forum before any action is taken.

Also some Bannings are not just from what a memeber does on AF forums but also what they do in PM's/Emails/AIM etc.., Things that you as members never get privy to at all. So don't always assume you know they whole story.

Very often members who have a long standing or deemed especially helpful rightly or wrongly are given more leniency then others. Ricochet is one of these and he continued to think because of this he was above and beyong the rules of AF. If he had just taken his Temp ban and grew-up he would still be here on AF helping thoise in the Honda forums. Don't blame us blame Ricochet.


One thing also, anybody who speaks of the old days of PureHonda as good... In my opinion I'm glad is leaving AF. Since the Mods did an excllent job those years ago of cleaning house of the old enbattled PH members there has been relative peace between Domestic and Import lovers on AF. One of the few internet car forums that can claim that.

Beastiek2
12-14-2004, 01:07 PM
Thanks CIVICSPOON -

I would also like to say thanks to everyone else you took the time to read and post in this thread; everything that was stated above is excellent and has much truth. Most of the topics that needed addressing have been discussed, so I will not ramble on about the obvious. First I'd like to say the Moderators on this site do an excellent job regardless of who thinks differently. They are constantly weeding out the nonsense and keeping this board maintained. We rarely have any quams with their justified actions. TILL its hits home. I guess the banning of RIC this weekend made us just gasp a bit because he was an intricate part tot he Honda/Acura forum. We all knew his ways and how he handled questions in particular threads, but that was just him. We'd expect a funny or crazy comment to come out of his mouth. In fact we'd question his ware bouts in a thread that we know he's rant in. That was just him and that was what he added to the forum that we liked. I do not know what he did ( in depth ) like the Moderators do as mentioned above but I do feel if he was banned then he must have deserved it. Moderators just donít go around banning people for no reason so this must have been just. I donít like the decision but thatís you as a Moderators job so I respect that.

However I do not respect what actions you take against us (other Honda/Acura members) in the light of his banning. I do not see the need to close a thread that asked other members "What happen to RIC this weekendĒ I feel we have a right to discuss and add our comments to an event such as this. Yes you will come back and say you suggested making a thread in this forum, and we did thank you. But not ever member in our forums gets to read this thread nor has the balls to post in it. Having a thread open in our forums is just a place for us to get some answers and vent our opinions. I just find so many threads that were closed with the name RIC involved within it.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=327040&page=2

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=331434

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=331296

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=331252

Comments by crazayjay like this are not needed "b18ls, if you don't like it, you can leave." That was his response to b18ls's post "After over a year of good info and great videos in off topic, Ricochet has been banned. (Shakes his head in disappointment)"

Not one of our Moderators (Honda/Acura) came in to rant and rave nor did they close one thread. This was all done by the Moderators out side our forum circle. And I just feel its an unnecessary act of power. I am not picking on anyone nor am I starting trouble just voicing my thoughts and opinions.
Thank you for reading, thank you to everyone in our forums (Members and Moderators) and a special thanks to ECKO and MIATA keep up the good work..

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 01:33 PM
I have only been a Mod for about 3 months so I think maybe I can give a good middle ground view between Mod and member.

I spend about 50% of my time on AF moving post were they should be, closing threads or trying to diffuse possible flaming threads, and deleting/moving spam. This stuff becomes old and annoying real quick let me tell you. I only do this for the Mustang forum which as a whole is one of the easier ones. You don't realize how much time and effort Mods spend wit this stuff until you are one.

The reason I bring that up is many people think we just spend our time cruising AF looking for people to ban which is just not the case. Also many think that we are just renegade Mods roaming the badlands of AF with our Ban guns blazing. The truth is almost 98% of the bannings except for easy clearcut one's like spamming and such are brought up and discussed in the Moderator Forum before any action is taken.

Also some Bannings are not just from what a memeber does on AF forums but also what they do in PM's/Emails/AIM etc.., Things that you as members never get privy to at all. So don't always assume you know they whole story.

Very often members who have a long standing or deemed especially helpful rightly or wrongly are given more leniency then others. Ricochet is one of these and he continued to think because of this he was above and beyong the rules of AF. If he had just taken his Temp ban and grew-up he would still be here on AF helping thoise in the Honda forums. Don't blame us blame Ricochet.


One thing also, anybody who speaks of the old days of PureHonda as good... In my opinion I'm glad is leaving AF. Since the Mods did an excllent job those years ago of cleaning house of the old enbattled PH members there has been relative peace between Domestic and Import lovers on AF. One of the few internet car forums that can claim that.


I think you have missed the point of this thread almost intirely. It not just about the banning of that member. Everyone here acknowledges
that other events took place that lead to his banning. The one quote about PureHonda shows how bias you are in any situation, it appears that you are willing to judge a whole group of individuals on the actions of a few.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 01:41 PM
Comments by crazayjay like this are not needed "b18ls, if you don't like it, you can leave." That was his response to b18ls's post "After over a year of good info and great videos in off topic, Ricochet has been banned. (Shakes his head in disappointment)"

Was it? Or was i responding to his post:

Mods...

or maybe


That is funny! I thought you were serious at first. Most Mods are... Better yet, I'll shut up.

So tell me, whose comments aren't needed?

The fact is, b18ls - or indeed anyone who doesnt like the situation at AF - is free to leave. If you're going to stay, play by the rules. It really is that simple.

Beastiek2
12-14-2004, 01:50 PM
So tell me, whose comments aren't needed?

The fact is, b18ls - or indeed anyone who doesnt like the situation at AF - is free to leave. If you're going to stay, play by the rules. It really is that simple.

Are our opinons allowed?
Did B18ls say somthing offensive? Wrong? What rule did he brake?
I am sure we all expect more maturity from our Moderaors rather then our members.

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 02:01 PM
Yeah b18ls said nothing against anyone. he made it clear that he had an oppion, but chose to keep it to himself.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 02:28 PM
Are our opinons allowed?
Did B18ls say somthing offensive? Wrong? What rule did he brake?
I am sure we all expect more maturity from our Moderaors rather then our members.
Maturity doesnt come into my reply to him because it wasn't a flippant remark. I meant it.

If a member is unhappy, he or she should contact a moderator. Still not content? Contact an administrator. Do not resort to making comments across several threads and mass PM'ing.

Again, you aren't aware of PM's that are exchanged. b18ls is unhappy with the situation at AF, is highly critical of the job we're doing as mods, and is openly promoting for another forum.

Quite clearly, the best alternative is for him to go there rather than hang around and disapprove.

Miataracer
12-14-2004, 03:05 PM
Guys I would just like to add my two cents here. I feel I might be able to bring a little more to this discussion as I have recently become a moderator and joined the AF team. I will tell you all in complete honesty that being a mod is a lot harder than you would think. SERIOUSLY! These guys have to try to figure out what to do in all kinds of situations to try and be fair and handle things in an appropriate way. Itís hard. Rarely ever does a mod do something without first asking for some other opinions on the situation. Now the subject has been brought up about why the thread that asked what happened to Ric was closed and whether or not membersí opinions are allowed. The thread was not closed to try and take away your rights to talk about what has happened. Take an honest look at that thread. In it you guys are saying it is BS that he got banned, and even suggesting a mutiny. The threads were closed to stop things from getting out of hand. There is a pretty noticeable difference between the threads you listed, Beastik2, and this thread that got started in the Hot and Not section. Thank you CivicSpoon for creating this thread and sharing your opinion.

The Honda section went very loosely moderated for quite some time. In that time the rules went from being bent a little here and there to being totally broken. You guys know I have been right there with you on this and I feel your pain when people post the same thing over and over without searching. That still doesnít mean the answer is to bash the person ruthlessly to the point that they will never come back. Thanks largely in part to GScivic7ís suggestion, new moderators were elected to help watch over the Honda section. If you give us a chance we are going to try and help make things better. However, it will be very hard to make things better without the help of you guys.

clawhammer
12-14-2004, 03:06 PM
Is Ricochet coming back or not?

mentel
12-14-2004, 03:09 PM
Is Ricochet coming back or not?
No, he's on a permanent holiday from AF. Please don't ask again.

mentel
12-14-2004, 03:12 PM
What I think?

I think that Moderators as a whole are under appreciated. I'm keeping it short and simple.

You af members have no idea whats involved with running this site, what these moderators do, and the fact that if these people weren't mods right now you probably wouldn't even be typing in www.automotiveforums.com every morning like I do, because there would be no AF.

Take a look around, look what is provided for you, free of charge (You know, the admin could institute subscription charges for this site) and be happy that you have such a wonderful glory hole of information and help provided for you free of charge.

clawhammer
12-14-2004, 03:15 PM
No, he's on a permanent holiday from AF. Please don't ask again.
The reason why I asked was because this thread was dealing with two things: one that he was banned and he should come back, and second how the mods made the wrong decision. Everybody seemed to have an opinion about the second part, but there was no official response about the first part.

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 03:45 PM
Has anyone else noticed that no matter what is braught up in Hot or Not most of the time the responce from the mods is "you have no idea what its like being a mod"? I'm just saying, that cant be the answer to every problem that comes up, and if thats the only way to defend what you (speaking in general) have done, or havnt done, maby you should take a better look.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 04:05 PM
and second how the mods made the wrong decision
We unequivocally did not make the wrong decision. The proof of that is that Ricochet is still gone.

Ricochet made the wrong decision. He got himself banned, no one else caused it.

Has anyone else noticed that no matter what is braught up in Hot or Not most of the time the responce from the mods is "you have no idea what its like being a mod"? I'm just saying, that cant be the answer to every problem that comes up, and if thats the only way to defend what you (speaking in general) have done, or havnt done, maby you should take a better look.
It isn't the answer to every problem that comes up, unless you're reading very selectively. We've repeatedly said that things go on behind the scenes that you are not aware of, and that our decisions are checked and reviewed. You're only hearing that line because we are getting so much criticism. Some is fair and is being taken on board, but a good chunk is unjustified and stems from people that are completely uninformed and jumping to conclusions.

jon@af
12-14-2004, 04:13 PM
The reason why I asked was because this thread was dealing with two things: one that he was banned and he should come back, and second how the mods made the wrong decision. Everybody seemed to have an opinion about the second part, but there was no official response about the first part.
You may not like the job we do, but please do not accuse of us being wrong. We made a judgement call, and it will stand. While many of the issues in this thread are debateable, the issue of Ricochet is not. He has been banned, and he will stay that way. That topic is closed.

Now, if you would like to address the actual contents put forth by CivicSpoon, please do, but do not bring this thread off topic to accuse the moderators of making a wrong decision as far as banning someone.

Beastiek2
12-14-2004, 04:20 PM
Thank you all: Understood

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 04:51 PM
It isn't the answer to every problem that comes up, unless you're reading very selectively. We've repeatedly said that things go on behind the scenes that you are not aware of, and that our decisions are checked and reviewed. You're only hearing that line because we are getting so much criticism. Some is fair and is being taken on board, but a good chunk is unjustified and stems from people that are completely uninformed and jumping to conclusions.

But see, you basicaly responced to that with the responce that spawned that question to beguin with. I'm from the buisiness word, if your getting "so much" criticism then maby a change is in order.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 04:59 PM
But see, you basicaly responced to that with the responce that spawned that question to beguin with. I'm from the buisiness word, if your getting "so much" criticism then maby a change is in order.
Business world? Well greetings from the finance world.

Maybe I should be more blunt. We're getting a lot of criticism largely because you guys often see very little of the information we act on. I appreciate this lack of transparency can be difficult for members, but you simply have to trust us. After all, Igor trusts us, and AF is his baby ;)

mentel
12-14-2004, 05:23 PM
After all, Igor trusts us, and AF is his baby ;)
The pay is good :iceslolan

RallyRaider
12-14-2004, 05:29 PM
To quote the late, great Frank Zappa - "why do you have to be wrong just because a million people think you are?"

In fact this situation is nothing near the case. How many people are complaining about the banning of Ricochet? ĎCause, face it that is what this is all about. Only a very small number that is who! Are the people he insulted and flamed happy he is gone? Undoubtedly. If they haven't been totally turned off AF because of his actions. If you people have a barrow to push then by all means keep pushing it. However, in this instance you will not win because Ricochet was in the wrong, many, many times.

Lets just put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. Imagine you were a mod and a member stated throwing insults, going on a ridiculous crusade and generally pissing members off. What would you do? Ask him to stop most likely. He doesn't respond. What happens next?

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-14-2004, 05:54 PM
ok..... I'm kinda new.... but i know what moderators go through, because i run MANY sites that are filled with kids 10 to 14 years old, because I'm a kid. And trust me, you think Adults behave badly, try dealing with a 10 yearold girl who is obsessed with attention. Anyways, way off topic.

i think we may, and should be a little...... leniant? on the mods and such. I know what they deal with, and as the old saying goes, we cant be everywhere at once.

But if you are having problems with somone in the Honda/Acura forum, maybe you should tell sombody about it.

But, Mdoerators wouldent stay working here if they dident like to help. :)

Anyways. I'm not gonna sound like i know anything, because i have what... a 100 posts? give me a break lol

My cents. :)

CivicSpoon
12-14-2004, 05:55 PM
Now, if you would like to address the actual contents put forth by CivicSpoon, please do, but do not bring this thread off topic to accuse the moderators of making a wrong decision as far as banning someone.
Thank you. I think people are getting a little confused on the whole purpose of this thread. I never wanted this thread to be soley about Ricochet. I only used him as an example on a couple places.

clawhammer - Please re-read the thread. I haven't seen anyone say that Ricochet shouldn't have been permenantly banned. There were questions of why he was temp banned in the first place (as well as others, not just him) but that has already been discussed and answered. And after the mods gave their answer as to why he was permenantly banned, no one has said that the mods made the wrong decision.

I fear this thread is started taking an offensive and defensive turn. Please everyone take a step back with an open mind and try to see both sides of things. Lets not turn this thread into a negative thing. Anyone who starts trouble for the sake of starting toruble will face the wrath of CivicSpoon ;) j/k But seriously, this is a discussion not an argument.

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-14-2004, 06:03 PM
lol good post.

i read the whole thing, and i think sometimes people cant help what they say, and it blurts out. Maybe thats what happened to Richochet and thats why he is permanetly banned.

I did that once. Now I'm banned from a snowmobile forum lol

GScivic7
12-14-2004, 06:05 PM
I think that Moderators as a whole are under appreciated. I'm keeping it short and simple.
If moderators are so under appreciated why the hell would I go through all the trouble to get new mods in the honda forum. We needed mods who are around our members and forums 24/7 and understand the atmosphere and the personality of each member.

If Ricochet's post was so offensive why the hell didn't my post get chopped? It's funny how after we get new mods, all these global mods want in on the shit that goes down in the Honda forums.

That line about how Igor could very well charge us for this site is complete bullshit too. The members on here don't get paid to help out each other do they? They could very well be somewhere else making money giving out automotive advice. If everyone thought like that where would AF be without it's members? That damn statement is always brought up and it's a complete crock.

If you need to delete posts and threads fine, but don't ban someone who is a valuable member to our forum. Maybe if he went in other forums talking a lot of shit, which he may have, I don't know I'm not his babysitter, he might have deserved it, but I really doubt he is the type to do that. All the mods have to do is delete offensive posts and threads and there would never be any trace of it.

My last 3 years here overall have been great, I've taken a lot from this website and have been trying to give back, was even about to donate to the site once I got my new credit card. However, lately things have just straight hit the fan.

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-14-2004, 06:16 PM
All the mods have to do is delete offensive posts and threads and there would never be any trace of it.

That is why on all my forums, we put a deleted post section and it is saved. :iceslolan

I agree with you 100% that the bottom line is, we need to start saving improtant bannings on forums, so when members, like civicspoon, have somthing to say, everyone can review the things, and not have to say, he may or may not have done things. :nono:

One of my most improtant things to say is, maybe they should start hiring fully respected members like Hobbes, and people to mod, since they are respected by members, are nice, and take action when they see things. :iceslolan

But i dont know half the people on this forum, so my post may just get ignored. :eek:

Neways. Great talking with all of you, and this is the #1 thing that happens on forums and has to get delt with and figured out! :lol2:

RallyRaider
12-14-2004, 06:18 PM
All the mods have to do is delete offensive posts and threads and there would never be any trace of it.

That is the crux of the Ricochet matter for me. We do not have the time to continually baby sit members and clean up their mess. If a person proves they cannot be trusted to do the right thing (as was the case with Ricochet) then they cannot be trusted with posting rights. Sorry, if you want anarchy then there are other places on the internet you can have that in spades. Here we act civilly.

mentel
12-14-2004, 06:21 PM
If moderators are so under appreciated why the hell would I go through all the trouble to get new mods in the honda forum. We needed mods who are around our members and forums 24/7 and understand the atmosphere and the personality of each member.


I was speaking of AF as a whole. There are good members such as yourself, but there are not enough to make a big difference. Obviously, look at this thread and recent events. Besides - trying to recruit new moderators isn't exactly my defination of showing appreciation.

GScivic7
12-14-2004, 06:34 PM
Besides - trying to recruit new moderators isn't exactly my defination of showing appreciation.
If the time I spend and the things I do that I think are helpful to the site aren't appreciated, I guess there is no reason for me to be here. You guys have said it and I have also said it, "If you don't like the way things are here, leave." I'll take my own advice and act on it.

Thank you to everyone on AF as a whole for making it my home for 3 years.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 06:39 PM
It's funny how after we get new mods, all these global mods want in on the shit that goes down in the Honda forums.

Please... We're enforcing the guidelines. Nothing more complicated than that. If you believe that we dart from forum to forum looking for ban candidates, you're grossly mistaken.

If you need to delete posts and threads fine, but don't ban someone who is a valuable member to our forum. Maybe if he went in other forums talking a lot of shit, which he may have, I don't know I'm not his babysitter, he might have deserved it, but I really doubt he is the type to do that. All the mods have to do is delete offensive posts and threads and there would never be any trace of it.

No. We don't have to put up with that. The member is responsible for what he or she posts. If you want to stick around, play by the rules. If after being given a second chance, you don't take it, blame yourself. Don't look beyond that when assigning blame.


My last 3 years here overall have been great, I've taken a lot from this website and have been trying to give back, was even about to donate to the site once I got my new credit card. However, lately things have just straight hit the fan.
Have they? I dont see a mass uprising. Maybe I'm missing something, so go ahead and expand on that.

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
Besides - trying to recruit new moderators isn't exactly my defination of showing appreciation.


So he spent time and effort trying to improve one of the places he likes to spend his time, how is that not appreciation. He was trying to better the forums. What exactly one have to do around here short of performing oral sex on a mod before they are appreciated.

mentel
12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
If the time I spend and the things I do that I think are helpful to the site aren't appreciated, I guess there is no reason for me to be here. You guys have said it and I have also said it, "If you don't like the way things are here, leave." I'll take my own advice and act on it.

Thank you to everyone on AF as a whole for making it my home for 3 years.
Nobody is telling you to, or giving you hints to leave. Personally, no problem here with you.

There is a difference between being helpful to the site, and helpful and appreciative to the people who run it (moderators). Please take the time to distinguish the difference.

mentel
12-14-2004, 07:05 PM
So he spent time and effort trying to improve one of the places he likes to spend his time, how is that not appreciation. He was trying to better the forums. What exactly one have to do around here short of performing oral sex on a mod before they are appreciated.
Please cool it. I was not trying to instigate anything here. I was simply saying that everybody makes the moderator out to be the bad guy. Sure, you can go and give advice to the forums, help people out, that does provide for the community. What I'm saying, is that there is not many users who direct it strictly to the moderators. As many of us have said, it's a thankless job. Please read my posts thoroughly. I do not want a flame war, a closed thread, or anything inbetween. Try to keep it civil.

Hobbes
12-14-2004, 07:09 PM
I don't have any :2cents: to bring in but I'll say this; A very good thread and very good responses from those that answered. I say if the members and moderators work together this place will never get ugly.

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-14-2004, 07:09 PM
Yes. I believe our posts here are making a difference. Lets just try to get along.

I said my post would get ignored, and no one has said a thing to me.

Mediocrity
12-14-2004, 07:22 PM
I've just one thing to say about Ricochet being banned for calling something someone wanted to being gay.

It seems to me these days, calling something gay is not automatic connotation for something being "homosexual". As it were, it seems to be split into both someone being homosexual and something being synonymous with "stupid" or "bad". Most people use it these days without actually meaning "homosexual" but rather just negative notation for something.

Just my 2 cents, and I realize some people see it differently.

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-14-2004, 07:24 PM
Its just slang in school.

I dont think he meant it that way.

mentel
12-14-2004, 07:26 PM
I've just one thing to say about Ricochet being banned for calling something someone wanted to being gay.

It seems to me these days, calling something gay is not automatic connotation for something being "homosexual". As it were, it seems to be split into both someone being homosexual and something being synonymous with "stupid" or "bad". Most people use it these days without actually meaning "homosexual" but rather just negative notation for something.

Just my 2 cents, and I realize some people see it differently.
Please - we've all discussed this ricochet matter and we've all been trying to forget about it, no need to have people constantly be bringing it up.

Miataracer
12-14-2004, 07:29 PM
The 'issue' with Ricochet is not that he called someone 'gay.' There was a lot more to it than that. I agree that it is time to stop talking about whether he deserved to be banned or not and what he did to get banned.

crayzayjay
12-14-2004, 07:33 PM
So he spent time and effort trying to improve one of the places he likes to spend his time, how is that not appreciation. He was trying to better the forums. What exactly one have to do around here short of performing oral sex on a mod before they are appreciated.
If you are unable to post sensibly in this of all threads, you will not make a further contribution to it.

AF has hundreds if not thousands of truly appreciated members, and some are more knowledgeable than others. As Igor put it, RESPECT IS THE KEY. A knowledgeable, respectful member is more appreciated than a knowledgeable member with unpleasant habits.

It seems to me these days, calling something gay is not automatic connotation for something being "homosexual". As it were, it seems to be split into both someone being homosexual and something being synonymous with "stupid" or "bad". Most people use it these days without actually meaning "homosexual" but rather just negative notation for something.
Dealt with on the first page of this thread.

TheSilentChamber
12-14-2004, 08:04 PM
I was just stating it how I see it. He said he did not appreciate a member even though that member had put alot of effort and knowledge into a forum.

mentel
12-14-2004, 08:54 PM
I was just stating it how I see it. He said he did not appreciate a member even though that member had put alot of effort and knowledge into a forum.
Please find where I said that. Again, read, really actually take time to disect my words and find out what I'm saying, instead of jumping to a conclusion. It causes trouble.

whtcivic93
12-14-2004, 09:43 PM
I'd just like to say I agree with everything civicspoon said and stand behind this thread 100%.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

RallyRaider
12-14-2004, 09:47 PM
So, calling somebody gay is not a bad thing hey? Where do you draw the line then? Sexist/racist words are always offensive to somebody. Saying them in the wrong place/time/context could even get you killed. So learn the lesson now, nobody will respect you if you do not respect others.

In fact that may be one of the problems that the people who stated this thread are feeling i.e. they feel insulted by some of the moderators. At least one mod had apologised for that and others who may have not been as sympathetic should take heed. However, the rank and file should remember those same mods have just finished dealing with an abusive, stubborn, argumentative, self important and opinionated individual like Ricochet. So they may still be on a short fuse.

emerge
12-14-2004, 10:46 PM
hiya kids.

ya, i'm back. i don't really care if you want to hear me bitch about ricochet being banned or not, cuz that's what i'm about to do. hell, you can ban me too. i left this site almost a year ago anyways, because it's gone so downhill. i am one of the original PH members as well, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't post here (anymore). in fact, don't reply to this post cuz i'm not coming back to check this thread to see what you think.

have you guys ever seen the honda/acura forum? it's like a damn paradox of redundancy. same threads by the same newbies all the time. "what color do i paint my car", "which intake", "how do i add hp", "what is vtec". and you wonder why ricochet acts like he does...

the fact is, this is the internet. people are gonna say whatever the hell they want and whatever the hell entertains them, whether it makes you happy or not. if you're gonna waste your time getting offended by some kid on a computer halfway across the country who doesn't even know your real name, you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. and yeah i know, moderators have a tough job to do, wah wah wah. fact is, you accepted the position. and it's not like you HAVE to do it. there are plenty of other people out there who WANT to be moderators. but you are the one who was chosen to do it. so congratulations. i just wish some of you would do a better job at it...

peace.

-merge

whtcivic93
12-14-2004, 10:54 PM
hiya kids.

have you guys ever seen the honda/acura forum? it's like a damn paradox of redundancy. same threads by the same newbies all the time. "what color do i paint my car", "which intake", "how do i add hp", "what is vtec". and you wonder why ricochet acts like he does...

the fact is, this is the internet. people are gonna say whatever the hell they want and whatever the hell entertains them, whether it makes you happy or not. if you're gonna waste your time getting offended by some kid on a computer halfway across the country who doesn't even know your real name, you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place.

-merge
:ylsuper: :cheers:

GTStang
12-15-2004, 12:10 AM
I think you have missed the point of this thread almost intirely. It not just about the banning of that member. Everyone here acknowledges
that other events took place that lead to his banning. The one quote about PureHonda shows how bias you are in any situation, it appears that you are willing to judge a whole group of individuals on the actions of a few.


I think you have missed the point of my post and shown your predetermned bias. I was complimenting what the current AF Honda community now is(new AF members/ PH memebers who stayed). It's not made up of a bunch of people who like to go into Mustangs and Camaro Forums and say how much they suck and Hondas rule etc.., It is now mostly people who appreciate and respect all cars but prefer Hondas.

And your other Pure Honda poster in this thread has help to reassure my feelings on the majority of the Pure Honda community and what they brought to AF.

RallyRaider
12-15-2004, 12:22 AM
hiya kids.

-merge

Hmm... I wonder how Freud would diagnose that...

Dealing with newbies is nothing unique to the Honda forums, it's the same all over AF. Anyone who cracks the way Ricochet did will have to be sorted in similar fashion.

So all mods aren't perfect all the time, sorry but that is always going to be the case. Even in a small group of people there are bound to be disagreements and arguments about any issue. Now multiply that by the quarter of a million plus members on AF and there is an awful lot of potential for disagreement. Even more so when we can count on ex-members to come crawling out of the woodwork when they smell some blood. :rolleyes:

G35XAndTrailBlazer
12-15-2004, 09:05 AM
hiya kids.

ya, i'm back. i don't really care if you want to hear me bitch about ricochet being banned or not, cuz that's what i'm about to do. hell, you can ban me too. i left this site almost a year ago anyways, because it's gone so downhill. i am one of the original PH members as well, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't post here (anymore). in fact, don't reply to this post cuz i'm not coming back to check this thread to see what you think.

have you guys ever seen the honda/acura forum? it's like a damn paradox of redundancy. same threads by the same newbies all the time. "what color do i paint my car", "which intake", "how do i add hp", "what is vtec". and you wonder why ricochet acts like he does...

the fact is, this is the internet. people are gonna say whatever the hell they want and whatever the hell entertains them, whether it makes you happy or not. if you're gonna waste your time getting offended by some kid on a computer halfway across the country who doesn't even know your real name, you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. and yeah i know, moderators have a tough job to do, wah wah wah. fact is, you accepted the position. and it's not like you HAVE to do it. there are plenty of other people out there who WANT to be moderators. but you are the one who was chosen to do it. so congratulations. i just wish some of you would do a better job at it...

peace.

-merge

Bravo, that was awesome.
:thefinger :1: :iagree: :worshippy :wave: :yugosmili

YogsVR4
12-15-2004, 10:33 AM
Went away for a year, but came back to post that. Thanks :lol:


Noobs :lol:

jon@af
12-15-2004, 02:12 PM
hiya kids.

ya, i'm back. i don't really care if you want to hear me bitch about ricochet being banned or not, cuz that's what i'm about to do

-merge


You know, I might have actually read what you posted, but this line here made me think "nah, not worth my time". This isn't a bitch about Ricochet thread, as already stated on the first page of this thread.

NOTE TO ANYONE ELSE POSTING IN THIS THREAD FROM THIS POINT ON: IF YOU MAKE YOUR POST TO SIMPLY BITCH ABOUT THE FACT RICOCHET WAS BANNED, YOUR POST WILL BE DELETED WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT. THIS WAS STARTED FOR A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASON THAN TO QUESTION OUR DECISION ON THE BANNING OF A MEMBER.

That is all.

RallyRaider
12-15-2004, 04:00 PM
:ylsuper: :cheers:

Bravo, that was awesome.
:thefinger :1: :iagree: :worshippy :wave: :yugosmili

Can't even constrain yourselves from postwhoring in a serious topic such as this. Way to go showing respect for the member who originated this thread. :rolleyes:

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