Drifting=Dumb?

First of all, I'm not trying to flame, I'm trying to spark legitimate debate.

So I was at my local kart-track. They have these karts that are like really ghetto Rotax's, no shifters, but theyre 9hp with slick tires, they can go pretty fast.

So I'm bombing along, and I start to drift for fun, and I'm slowly getting left behind the pack. So I start to try and grip it, and its working out. But everytime I screw up, and drive the "incorrect way" relative to grip driving, i.e. too much throttle, lift throttle too much/too early/too late or too much braking, I drift.

So this got me thinking. Is drifting just a way to cover up bad driving? I mean, Japan has put out some good Drivers, Keiichi for example, but on the world stage, such as F1, which is judged to be the pinnacle of open wheel racing, the highest ranking Japanese driver has only finished 2nd or third. If you want to take it to Sports Car racing, only Mazda has won LeMans, and I cant even remember if it was a Japanese driver. The Toyota team didnt get very far.

So what do you guys think. I know in Sprint cars, drifting is required, and in old F1 cars, and the old pre-war Auto Unions,drifting was a nesseacity(see Fangio in his Lancia..its a famous picture). But in todays day and age, with the way tires, suspensions etc. have advanced, drifting seems to be a dumb way to drive. In F1, drivers who use opposite lock are seen as sub-par(Felipe Massa, Ralf Schumacher) to the top tier.

Granted, D1 etc. is all for show, but even then, there's no accountability. Its all style. Dont get me wrong, drifting is loads and loads of fun, but I really am beggining to question its legitimacy(if thats the right word)

What do you all think.

I can see where you're coming from. But I believe knowing how to controll a car when it's 'out of control' is obviously a valuable technique to know when, as you said, screwing up going into a turn or not setting up correctly.

Like you also mentioned, With today's cars and suspension/tire setups drifting isn't needed to be fast anymore. But should still be learned to a degree if you're going to race professionally.

Obviously if you're going to full on, maximum tire smoke drifting while racing people who are straight out gripping. You'll get left behind... Unless they're in Geo Metros.

I can't find this picture of Fangio, could someone post it?

Its in a magazine of mine, from the early 1950s, 1950-1952, at either Silverstone or Monza.

as redneck said, if you are racingand drifting and the other person is griping you are going to get left beyond a doubt. drifting asa sport is for fun, that's is all it ever has been. its like olympic diving. its all style and, though learning to dive corectly is valuable, learning to do a tripple back flip and half twist isnt going to help you if you haver have to dive into water from any height. just like learning to controll a car is great. but if you loose traction in the rain or while racing you dont need to know how to rape your tires down to the belts.

i also see where you've got these ideas, but it seems like your making drifting an easy and simple thing to do, but really drifting side by side with somebody else is very difficult and needs years of practice to get right, as far as drifting covering up for bad driving, to be able to drift you need to know just as much about grip racing, griping and drifting have sort of a ying-yang kind of relationship, and to do one, you have to be expeirenced with the other.

i also see where you've got these ideas, but it seems like your making drifting an easy and simple thing to do, but really drifting side by side with somebody else is very difficult and needs years of practice to get right, as far as drifting covering up for bad driving, to be able to drift you need to know just as much about grip racing, griping and drifting have sort of a ying-yang kind of relationship, and to do one, you have to be expeirenced with the other.

Judging distances, throttle application, braking etc. while doing tandem is tough, but you make it out to be like its so hard. Years of practice? It can be picked up after a few months.

I think the only thing you need to know about griping is the theory of racing lines. Ok, maybe heel-toe downshifting too. But ebraking, feinting, etc. have shit all to do with gripping.

I dont think they have a yin-yang relationship either. Drifting is the exact opposite of gripping. Ok, opposite lock and oversteer are important for gripping, but ideally you shouldnt be experiencing these two phenomenon. No F1 or touring car driver ever started out drifting.

i dont ever think you could call drifting dumb or simple i think it would be easier to go around an oval 400 times then it would to do a perfect s-turn 5 times now drifting takes a lot of skill and you have to kno wat your car will do i kno mine will easilly drift any turn in second gear if i mash the gas when i first got my car it was sumthing new and took about 3 months now i can drift it any where any time but thats not goin 70 to 100 mph like the pros from japan do any driving over 50 takes sum skill and i think its correct to say they are very good drivers just becuase mazda is the only company to WIN doesnt mean that much the supra team just smashed the competion recently and so did the nissan 350z drifting takes a skill like mentioned earlier to control the car when its out of control and yes my practice has helped me when ive slid in the rain and sno and people riding with me get scared and ask if i was and i think nothin of it cuz i kno what is going on so its jus an opinon i think that nascar is kinda dumb and driftng is the coolest thing ive seen its jus wat i think

now wat lets her ur :2cents:

i dont ever think you could call drifting dumb or simple i think it would be easier to go around an oval 400 times then it would to do a perfect s-turn 5 times now drifting takes a lot of skill and you have to kno wat your car will do i kno mine will easilly drift any turn in second gear if i mash the gas when i first got my car it was sumthing new and took about 3 months now i can drift it any where any time but thats not goin 70 to 100 mph like the pros from japan do any driving over 50 takes sum skill and i think its correct to say they are very good drivers just becuase mazda is the only company to WIN doesnt mean that much the supra team just smashed the competion recently and so did the nissan 350z drifting takes a skill like mentioned earlier to control the car when its out of control and yes my practice has helped me when ive slid in the rain and sno and people riding with me get scared and ask if i was and i think nothin of it cuz i kno what is going on so its jus an opinon i think that nascar is kinda dumb and driftng is the coolest thing ive seen its jus wat i think

now wat lets her ur :2cents:


Dude I never compared drifting to NASCAR to begin with. Your argument has nothing to do with what Im saying. You say your car will drift any turn in second gear if you nail the throttle, thats my point exactly. By doing something that would fuck you up in a road race, you induce a drift. Thats why I think drifting is dumb, because its a bastardization of the skill and finesse needed to drive according to the tradtional methods.

As Ive said before though, it does teach you car control, and it is loads of fun.

i dont ever think you could call drifting dumb or simple i think it would be easier to go around an oval 400 times then it would to do a perfect s-turn 5 times...

This post made my head hurt.

You apparently have never driven on an oval before. Though I have never driven an oval before, I have driven part of an oval before, and quite regularly (NHIS South Oval configuration), and actually drove a 3 hour SCCA Endurance race there this summer in my Miata. In the Miata, where you're not going fast enough to have to brake going into the oval, it is very difficult to go through there perfectly 4 times in a row, never mind 400. Track conditions are constantly changing, and due to the track getting hotter lae in the race I was not able to get fully back into the throttle until 150 yards later than at the beginning. Then throw in other cars. There is A LOT more going on in an oval corner than you seem to think there is.

The fact is that they both require a lot of skill and a lot of practice to get them right. It's just thaty their intent, purpose, and skill set required are all totally different.

u cant say drifting is a cover up for bad driving and if i was in a road race i would hug the road as much as possible and not gas thro a hard corner and u r right i have never drove on an oval im sure it is hard but i think that the first statement "Is drifting just a way to cover up bad driving?" is totally ignorant thats like saying ne one could jump in the car and drift because it would be a bad driver doing bad driving it jus wouldnt happen getting as close the to wall with ur nose and end while sliding at 90 mphs requirese talent and isnt luck so they the drifters u see must not be bad at wat they get paid for. and im sorry if i offended u about nascar but IMO <--- i think there is more skill needed to drift then nascar, tires are changing much faster then nascar, tracks are heated too and there can be other cars out with u when you drift too thats wat makes the best events and there is no bastardization of driving racing or ne thing goin on thats like saying dunking is a bastardization to basketball and the same would go for passing in football nobody use to pass when it started its all an OPINION

and yes my argument does you HAVE to kno watyour car is going to do if u dont kno ur car u will be in trouble u need the right rpms the right weight distribution the right handling

u cant say drifting is a cover up for bad driving and if i was in a road race i would hug the road as much as possible and not gas thro a hard corner and u r right i have never drove on an oval im sure it is hard but i think that the first statement "Is drifting just a way to cover up bad driving?" is totally ignorant thats like saying ne one could jump in the car and drift because it would be a bad driver doing bad driving it jus wouldnt happen getting as close the to wall with ur nose and end while sliding at 90 mphs requirese talent and isnt luck so they the drifters u see must not be bad at wat they get paid for. and im sorry if i offended u about nascar but IMO <--- i think there is more skill needed to drift then nascar, tires are changing much faster then nascar, tracks are heated too and there can be other cars out with u when you drift too thats wat makes the best events and there is no bastardization of driving racing or ne thing goin on thats like saying dunking is a bastardization to basketball and the same would go for passing in football nobody use to pass when it started its all an OPINION

and yes my argument does you HAVE to kno watyour car is going to do if u dont kno ur car u will be in trouble u need the right rpms the right weight distribution the right handling

Dude stop making NASCAR such an issue. I never said ANYTHING about it, you brought it up entirely.


Dont let your love of drifting get in the way of the question. Think about it for a second. When people oversteer, they go into opposite lock, and essentially drift. This is to stop them from spinning. Ideally you shouldnt need opposite lock at all. Hence my theory that drifting covers up for bad grip driving. Ok, so not everyone can drift perfectly the first time, and there are alot of ass-clowns as drift days lately, but what Im saying is, in theory, you shouldnt need to drift at all to be a good driver.

What Im saying is you need skill to drift like D1 and stuff, but in reality, do you guys think drifting was invented to cover up poor racing skill.

I like what you said about basketball and dunking, but its a non-sequiter. Dunking can be used to your advantage in a game. Drifting will almost always slow you down on the track.

Drifting began as a competitive style of driving. Bob Bondurant actually commented in an interview - either Sports Car International or Car & Driver magazine I recall - when asked about the new drifting program at his school "Heck, back when driving the 427 Cobra, we were always sideways in the corner. We just didn't call it drifting back then."

Speed Channel also aired beautiful footage of the 1966 Targa Florio on Legends of Motorsport that shows rally legend Paddy Hopkirk drifting the factory MGC GTS (the six cylinder racing version of my car :biggrin: ) around the classic circuit.

In modern racing, it's become much less of a usuable skill. It's still very important be able to let your car slide controllably in production type racing, but the sliding is less pronounced and doesn't as frequently have the classic tail-out appeal of the older racing.

And of course if you can't hold a slip angle on bias-ply tires (as I've learned through experienced) I believe the technical term for your on-track situation is "totally boned".

Drifting isn't so much a cover for bad driving as it is an exaggeration of good driving. Good driving is micro-managing the slightest movement of a car to gain every last thousandth of a second. Good drifting is allowing and in fact encouraging the car to move as much as it wants and still being able to get it to go exactly where you want it to.

...
And of course if you can't hold a slip angle on bias-ply tires (as I've learned through experienced) I believe the technical term for your on-track situation is "totally boned".

Drifting isn't so much a cover for bad driving as it is an exaggeration of good driving. Good driving is micro-managing the slightest movement of a car to gain every last thousandth of a second. Good drifting is allowing and in fact encouraging the car to move as much as it wants and still being able to get it to go exactly where you want it to.

This is the crux of the entire argument. Suspension technology, tire technology, and aerodynamics have increased so much since "drifting" was the fast way around a track that it completely changed the required driving style, and the change from Bias-Ply to radials was the single biggest change of these. When you are driving on track, (paved road course or paved oval, doesn't matter), the fast way around a corner is usually a 4-wheel drift where both the front and rear tires are drifting the same amount in the desired direction. This usually results in the fastest time through the corner, and fastest overall lap time. (yes, there are a few exceptions such as high entry speed decreasing radius corners, like Big Bend at Lime Rock where you use a slight drift to allow higher entry speed and slow the car through the corner). The big difference is that these slip angles (the angle of the direction the tire is pointing vs the direction the tire is moving) on modern radial track tires is about 1.5-2 degrees where optimum grip occurrs vs 8-10 degreees on late 70's bias ply tires.

As for the changing conditions argument, on a partly cloudy day at the NHIS South Oval configuration, I base where I can get back to full throttle on where the cloud cover is for that lap. Depending on the exact track conditions determines this, and can vary lap to lap. Tracks can change A LOT in 1 min 20 seconds. Also remember that this is in a 2400lb, 140 HP Miata, never mind a 3400 lb, 850 HP Nextel Cup car.

The general argument that Choppa seems to be missing is that although drifting does require skill, it's not fast, and that driving on a track (ovals included) for the fastest speed is MUCH more difficult than he thinks.

drifting like art and the person those say that it's dumb!!!!!!.

dom......shut up

dom......shut up
*golf clap*

drifting is drifting...in my opinion, its way over rated where i live. People think they can drift in a Honda Accord....you serious and once they have a 240 or ANY rear-wheel drive car, they think they can do a drift...just like in Initial D

i dont think any one on this forum has the slightest idea, when it comes to drifting, if you think that a car handles like a go kart, then your just a dumb arse, drifting here in australia, is reaching its pinicle, and people actually understand the sport, no matter what you say or how many stupid debates you try and start, drifting will always be drifting. learn a thing a two before you start judging it

Dont let your love of drifting get in the way of the question. Think about it for a second. When people oversteer, they go into opposite lock, and essentially drift. This is to stop them from spinning. Ideally you shouldnt need opposite lock at all. Hence my theory that drifting covers up for bad grip driving. Ok, so not everyone can drift perfectly the first time, and there are alot of ass-clowns as drift days lately, but what Im saying is, in theory, you shouldnt need to drift at all to be a good driver.

What Im saying is you need skill to drift like D1 and stuff, but in reality, do you guys think drifting was invented to cover up poor racing skill.


Uh, by that same logic, isn't the countersteering (opposite lock) the cover up for bad driving rather than the drift itself? Maybe i'm not looking at this correctly but the drift isnt the cause of "bad grip driving", is it? There really isn't a distinction betwen what is drift and what is grip because one follows into the other and vice versa.

drifting like art and the person those say that it's dumb!!!!!!.
:iagree:

okay pal, when you talk of drifting in races. yeah in some cases it is to cover up bad driving. i should know i've done it myself a few times. but to whoever wrote drifting and grip driving are ying and yang. i agree with you TO AN EXTENT. a person who grip races yet know how to drift can utilize this in a race. for example, hairpin turns, a person who totally relies on grip well have slow down a lot to complete a turn whereas a good "drifter" hit the turn at a pretty high speed and come out of a turn at a decent speed. but vice versa a grip driver can take a drifter on a less technical turn such as a medium to wide turn where drifting may look sweet but is really not practical. combine the two styles and learn how and when is the best time to use a technique, you become a dominate force in the racing community. and as for you aussie boy (driift king) i went to australia on one of my deployments. AUSTRALIA BY DEFINTION IS A DRIFTERS PARADISE. just about every course out there is pretty much a tech course. so gripping is pretty much useless. so don't be raggin on something you never even have to friggin use.

...for example, hairpin turns, a person who totally relies on grip well have slow down a lot to complete a turn whereas a good "drifter" hit the turn at a pretty high speed and come out of a turn at a decent speed. but vice versa a grip driver can take a drifter on a less technical turn such as a medium to wide turn where drifting may look sweet but is really not practical....

This is totally wrong.

The ONLY type of corner by itself that is faster to "drift" through is a corner with a significant decreasing radius with a high entry speed and a straight following that is not very long. And we're talking generally about 8" of drift, meaning the rear tires are tracking about 8" outside of the fronts in a RWD car, and no countersteering should be necessarry. Though entry speed is higher, exit speed is generally MUCH lower compared to when you are not "drifting". With "grip" you can get back on the power sooner and as a result be faster down the following straight. If there is a 1/2 mile straight after a corner, a 5 MPH higher exit speed will translate to a 5MPH higher speed for 1/2 mile, where the "drift" entry may get you 10 MPH faster for 100 yards.

sliding is ALWAYS slower than using the most of your tires and taking the correct line. it may not be noticeable, it may not feel like you've slowed down a lot from drifting... but the disadvantage is there.

The way i see it is this:

In order to grip at your limits you have to know where they are, and the only way to know where your limits are is to exceed them.

simple as that. Drifting is exceeding the cars limits in grip. Therefor learning how to drift and balance these limits would make you a better grip driver.

And yes, the fastest way through a corner is by drifting. Those f1 cars oversteer and slide. Sure, its only like 1 degree, but its still the fastest way. Super high angle style drift is definately slower, and i think that it takes a tuned race car to see any gains from sliding in a corner.

"i drift not because it is the fastest way through a corner, but because it is the most fun way."

Keiichi Tsuchiya.


i think that's what it all comes down to. you say that drift drivers are covering up for bad driving. well then, why are alot of them very competitive in other forms of motorsport as well? Taniguchi drives in JGTC as well as other forms, and i'm sure many other drifters that are on the D1 circuit happily participate in other forms of motorsport.

drifting is FUN. but just because it is FUN and isn't the fastest way around a track doesn't mean it doesn't take skill.

you say tandem drifting right beside someone in 3rd gear WITHOUT hitting them only takes months of practise? alright then. i'll give you a car, give you three months, and see if you can do it. i guarantee you, you will not be able to. sure, getting the basic fundamentals of drifting only takes a few months. but fine-tuning them and honing them takes years. take a look at any driver on the pro circuit right now. all of the ones at the top have been doing what they do for YEARS now.


in order to keep a car sideways for that long, skill is involved and lots of it. you have to make minute movements to keep the car at the right angle. if they truly were very bad drivers, they would simply spin out and not drift at all.

clutch kicking, shift locking, power over. as simple as all these techniques may sound, they are just the opposite.

come on derek, you've seen the videos. driving while sitting on your door, doing donuts, while still managing not to hit anything (let's leave Asamoto at DX2 out of this example though :tongue: ) takes skill.

like every motorsport, drifting uses DIFFERENT skills. that is why maybe, to some, it seems dumb. it utilizes techniques that, in other motorsports, would spell failure and loss. but in drifting, with these techniques, you will win. THEREFORE, drifting is NOT bad driving at all. it is simply utilizing a different set of techniques in order to be successful in this motorsport. it's all about adaptation. and if you get a driver who can adapt to something like that, if anything that shows a GOOD driver, not a bad one.

i know you're going through a phase where you think drift is dumb derek, but just because your opinions are changing doesn't mean you have to take everyone else with you too! ;)

This is one of the best threads I've read in a while. Anyways, I think you're looking too much into this, Dorikin. Drifting is not about anything besides drifting. That's the whole point of it. It is its own sport; it's not related to anything else. If you don't find drifting fun or exciting (I sure don't), then yeah, it seems pointless, but you still have to respect it for what it is, and respect the drivers who can do it as well as they do.

I hate straight road racer...no skills!!!Just used their machine on the straight way..wahahahha..what a dumb...(lifts hiss foot on the throttle like an idiot) :)....

-SHIFT LOCK-