Hard starting Cadillac (continued)

Well you guys, it has been a while since I checked in here, and YES I am still having problems with my Caddy. After my last post, in which I stated that I thought I flooded it while trying to start it, I just let it sit for the month of November without even going out to try it. My girl friend who was in the hospital let me use her car, but she is able to drive now and I have to give it back to her. So today, Dec. 1, I grabbed my smokes and went out to try and start it, and amazingly after about 5 minutes of turning it over and frantically pumping the gas it started and ran for about a minute and died out. Again turning it over and pumping the gas for a couple of minutes it started again and this time it ran a little rough then seemed to run smoother as it warmed up. Now I was talking to an old Cadillac mechanic who used to work on the older carburator models, and he said in cold weather the 472 motor was hard to start, and that if the check valve in the fuel pump is weak it will allow gas to drain back to the tank after it sits over night, and that is why they start hard in the morning. He said in my case though in cold damp weather it may be that when I first try to start it there could be 2 things going on, 1 the carb is empty, so that is why I have to turn it over so long, and 2 being out of tune and having bad sparkplugs and plug wires is the reason I keep flooding it, it is getting gas after a few trys, then with bad wires and plugs my constant pumping floods it.
Does this make sense to you guys????
We will see in the morning it is supposed to be in the twenties tonight.

Makes perfect sence to me. Its about 40* outside and after my car sitting for about 2 hours it also have the hard starting problems like yours. I have to put some new plugs in it but I havent had the time.

Well the other morning when I went out to take the old Caddy to the shop that was going to do the repairs, it was quite cold out, and damp, I started my routine of smoking, I cant drive without smoking, pumping and turning it over with no results. It just cranked and did not even act like it wanted to start. So I continued for a few minutes of turning it over and pumping the gas at the same time and still nothing. I then just sat there smoking a cigarette and contantly pumping the gas without turning it over. After a few minutes I tried starting it again and it started and died. I pumped the gas frantically and tried again and it again started and died. So again I sat there smoking another cigarette, and just pumped the gas for a while. I then tried starting it and again nothing at first, and then it started and ran about a minute and died. I tried again, and it just cranked. My girlfriend who parks next to me was getting into her car and she mentioned to me that she smelled a strong odor of gas, I couldn't tell due to me sitting in the car with the windows up and me smoking, she told me I probably flooded it and to just hold the gas pedal to the floor. I tried that and nothing. So I lit another cig and sat there pumping away for a few more minutes and tried again and it just cranked and cranked. Yep I knew that I flooded it good. So I had it towed into the shop. More to come!!

Well its me again you guys. The shop that I had my car towed into called, and informed me that I had flooded it so bad, that there was gas in the oil, and that it needed to be changed, and also that the spark plugs were so worn and fouled that even if I had not flooded it that it wouldn't have run very well. They suggested that a tuneup be done, including cap, rotor and wires. Also I had told them about the hard starting and maybe the fuel pump was defective, and I was told once they get it running that they could tell if it is bad.
You know I hate dumping money into an old car, but if you saw the condition it was in, except for the interior, you would probably do the same.
OK more to come!

Well I just picked up my Caddy from the repair shop, $457.00 bill, but they say they fixed everything that was wrong. For starters they said that they think it had the original spark plugs in it, my aunt was the kind of person who got in the car and if it started she was fine another day, and also the automatic choke was not closing, thus making it hard to start when cold also. So its tuned up, oil changed, and everything else, so I should be set, I HOPE. It ran fine on the way home, so we will see in the morning how it starts. When I picked it up at the shop it had been sitting since yesterday, and I still had to pump the gas a few times to get it started but nothing like I had to do before. The mechanic told me in the morning, pump the gas 5 or 6 times and then start it and it should stay running and not die out, and when it is really cold he told me to pump the gas around 10 times but no more or I will flood it.
Now all I have to do is get the interior cleaned and I'll be all set.
Any ideas, my aunt was a heavy smoker, like me, but she never cleaned the inside, and it is just covered with that sticky brown film, especially aroung the ashtray which is right below the radio and heater controls, I have tried a few cleaners but it just makes it worse. I am probably a heavier smoker than she was, but once I get it cleaned, I will clean it more often so it does not get like it is now.

If it's still hard to start when cold, consider a block heater. They can be installed on most cars by a mechanic. Just use an extension cord to plug it in, they draw about 100 watts of electricity (like a lightbulb). About 1 hour plugged in will warm up your car nicely.

Thanks MagicRat, This morning I had to run and get cigarettes, and it was around 28 degrees here in Chicago, and I started it like the mechanic told me, I got in and started pumping the gas, I lost count but I think around 20 or so times really fast, and turned the key, and it cranked for about maybe 30 seconds and started. Yippe!! It had also been sitting since Friday, so I guess what ever the shop did solved the problem, but the real test will be when it is really cold, and even if I did get a heater, the no goods in the neighborhood would steal the cord.

Well you guys I did it again this morning, yep I flooded the shit out of this Caddy of mine. I guess after two tries to start it, I paniced and just kept pumping the gas and flooded it really bad. This time I could really smell the gas even with the windows up and a car full of cigarette smoke. Otherwise it has been a little hard to start the past week in the morning, 3 or 4 tries, and alot of pumping, but it always started. This morning it was really cold, and I only had one cigarette left besides the one I was smoking, and I had to get to the store before I was out, and like I said I paniced and it got me nowhere, thanks to my girlfriend who let me borrow her car, I avoided nicotine meltdown.
Do you guys think I should get rid of this Caddy and get a newer car with fuel injection????

If you can get enough money from trade in on the caddy then shure go ahead. If I was you I would take it to a old well respected shop that you know have been around for a long time, so they know alot about carburaters. Tell them your story and ask if they can give your carb a tune up or a cleaning. Also ask if they can adjust it so maybe its not running as rich or lean. Also go out and buy a can of Carburater cleaner. Take off the air cleaner and spray that down in there. That might help you out with the starting. (Do what I said before you start it or flood it)

Well yesterday in Chicago it was only 9 degrees, and I really needed to get to the store, so I went out and tried starting it, and it cranked really slow at first. I sat and pumped the gas for about a minute, and tried it again and it started right up. It was fine the rest of the day, starting on the first try without touching the gas. This morning it was 10 degrees outside, and when I went out, I sat there freezing, and before I did anything I pumped the gas for around a minute, tried starting it and nothing, it just cranked and cranked, I was not pumping the gas at all for the fear I might flood it.
Mind you I have a brand new battery installed. My girlfriend who parks next to me was out warming her car up, and she saw that I was getting frustrated, so she came over, told me to move over, she slid in and told me that I was starting it wrong. She stared pumping the gas, and cranked it at the same time, and after a few tries it started right up. She told me that she used to have an Oldsmobile that had the same hard starting problem, and that is how she started it during cold weather, and that she never flooded it.
The carb is fine, I stated in an earlier post that the choke was not working, and that the engine had not been tuned since it was new, so I think its just the way I start it that is causing all my problems now. She told me to do what she just did and see if that works, pumping it and then keep pumping it while cranking it.

I hava a suggestion for you: Forget EVERYTHING that you have done up until now to start your car!

Since the engine should be in a good state of tune (plugs, wires, cap, etc.) and the compression is acceptable, the only variable is the carb and fuel pump. The highest demand on a fuel pump is high speed and ascending hills. Since you have stated no problems here, we can assume a properly performing pump.

The service mechanic indicated that he corrected a binding choke. And your girlfriend was able to smell raw fuel, so we can assume that the CARBURETOR ACCELERATOR PUMP is functioning also. So, here is the correct way to start your car (again, assuming that the mechanic has correctly adjusted the choke, fast idle cam, and choke pull-off). This applies to a COLD engine - an engine that is at ambient temperature (has NOT been run for a few hours) and IS equipped with a carburetor:

1] Put key in ignition

2] Press accelerator (gas) pedal completely to the floor

3] Take your foot OFF the pedal COMPLETELY

4] Turn key to crank engine - with your foot COMPLETELY OFF the gas pedal

5] Engine will start and run at a high idle

6] After approx 10-15 seconds accelerate engine SLIGHTLY and release gas pedal. Engine will now run at a SLIGHTLY reduced speed, but still above curb idle.

7] Drive car normally.

8] If car does not start, go back to step #2 and press gas pedall 2-3 times - then take your foot OFF the pedal COMPLETELY and complete the rest of the steps


NOTE: DO NOT HAVE YOUR FOOT ON THE PEDAL WHILE ATTEMPTING TO START! This will defeat the design of the automatic choke.


Hot Engine:

Hold accelerator down approx 1/2 - 1 inch and crank engine to start.

Joe,
Thanks for the info, I tried what you said and it worked, well almost, I pumped it once and with my foot off the gas pedal, I cranked it, but it would not start. Then I pumped it about 5 times, and cranked it and it fired right up and stayed running. This past weekend though it was in the single digits in Chicago, and Xmas day I flooded it and had it towed in on Monday, and just got it back yesterday, Thursday, and when I picked it up I tried you suggestion and it worked.
Today, Friday I got up to go get cigarettes and again I pumped it once and it just cranked, I pumped it 5 times and tried it and it started right up.
I guess in the past I would panic if it did not start on the first try, and pumped the hell out of it thinking that was going to make it start.
Thanks for the help,
Ladysmoker

"... I pumped it about 5 times, and cranked it ...". If the carburetor is working properly, there's no way it should require 5 pumps. Have the mechanic re-check the ACCELERATOR PUMP.

Excessive pumping pumping can cause problems:

---- Excessive fuel can wash down cylinder walls diluting the oil and possibly scoring cylinder walls.

---- Colder temeratures reduce the vaporization of gasoline into the proper air/fuel ratio for combustion. Thus, it is much easier to flood an engine in colder temperatures. Pumping 5 times with a properly performing carburetor is perilously close to flooding that engine. Yes, it's a big engine, but it's also a big carb.

If one pump doesn't do it, NEXT TIME try JUST 2, then JUST 3, until you find the correct combination for your engine. Then use that system for similiar temperature starts. Back when I used to turn wrenches on Caddies, it was rare for one of my patients to require MORE than 1 pump, NEVER more than 2.

In fairness to your current mechanic, I was able to replace components as necessary, repair/rebuild carburetor if needed (including re-bushing throttle shafts), and adjust as required (occasionally, intentionally moving adjustments outside of the factory specifications). Also, we had pure gasoline (well almost), without many of the anti-pollution additives in current concoctions.

Joe

ps KEEP THE FOOT OFF WHILE CRANKING!

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Joe,
Thanks for the info, I tried what you said and it worked, well almost, I pumped it once and with my foot off the gas pedal, I cranked it, but it would not start. Then I pumped it about 5 times, and cranked it and it fired right up and stayed running. This past weekend though it was in the single digits in Chicago, and Xmas day I flooded it and had it towed in on Monday, and just got it back yesterday, Thursday, and when I picked it up I tried you suggestion and it worked.
Today, Friday I got up to go get cigarettes and again I pumped it once and it just cranked, I pumped it 5 times and tried it and it started right up.
I guess in the past I would panic if it did not start on the first try, and pumped the hell out of it thinking that was going to make it start.
Thanks for the help,
Ladysmoker

Joe,
Well over the weekend the car sat so this morning was the first time I tried it in 3 days, so I tried the one pump and it just cranked, then I tried 2 and it just cranked, so I tried 5 pumps and it cranked and fired right up.
I think I have found the right combination in starting this thing. Thanks for your response.
Now that I have the starting thing taken care of is there any suggestions you can give me on how to clean the interior. See I got this car from my aunt who was one of the heaviest smokers I've known, besides myself, and the interior is just covered with that brown sticky film, especially around the ashtray and heater controls. If I can get it cleaned up, then I can clean it as needed and not let it get so bad like it is now. I have tried just about everything, and some of the products I have tried just seem to make it worse.
I know it will never be like new with me being a heavy smoker, and one who can not drive without smoking, but I just need to get some of it gone.
Thanks!!

... is there any suggestions you can give me on how to clean the interior. ...

Being an advid non-smoker, I would probably just take it to my local firehouse, borow one of there 100 psi hoses, and just have at it (just kiddin').

Good luck.

Joe,
Ok, your reply was well taken, but in my family if you do not smoke then you are considered a outcast, besides myself, my 4 sisters all are heavy smokers, my mom is a smoker, and my dad he is a non smoker who puts up with us. My aunt who I inherited the Caddy from was also a very heavy smoker, but she passed away last summer, not from the cigarettes, but from a fall that injured her head, she was 65 yrs old, and a smoker for 50 years.
So where are you from? I'm in Chicago, right now waiting for the big snow storm, yikes. Oh and by the way, starting the Caddy is a breeze, I pump the gas five times, turn the key, with my foot off the pedal and it starts right up!!
So no ideas on how to clean the inside??
Let me know if you can think of any, PLEASE.

If I owned the car, I'd take it to a "Detailer". You can usually find them associated with most car washes and/or car lots. Around here, you can have a whole car done around $100-150. That includes inside, outside, and engine. The car ends up looking like it's on a "For Sale" lot (of course, it depends on the car and the particular shop). If the're slow, they will probably do the inside only at a reduced cost.

And, if it were mine, I'd put a GOOD electronic air purifier (I don't know about the ones on TV) in it overnight to remove stale smells.

Goo-gone or Goo-off i forget the exact name. Take that with a tooth brush and scrub it off. Then whipe it off and windex it to get the rest off. Finally armor all everything. I used some resolve rug cleaner and a screb brush for the rugs. Im sure a portable steam cleaner would work wonders.