Which of these subs would you get?


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threedd97
11-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Subwoofer Questions

Comparison of Some Audiobahn 12" Subwoofers (http://www.cardomain.com/shop/compare.pl?comp_sku=ABNAW1208T&comp_sku=ABNAW1206T&comp_sku=ABNAW1205Q&prev_query=brand%3DAudiobahn%26type_plural%3DSubwo ofers%26order%3Dbranddesc%26start%3D21%26show%3D20&x=35&y=15http://www.msn.com/)
Is the AW1205Q better than the AW1206T? If it is, is the difference between the AW1205Q and the AW1208T marginal? What about the difference between the AW1206T and the AW1208T? Is the extra $150 for the AW1208T over the AW1206T really justified? Same question applies to the price difference between the AW1205Q and the AW1208T.

Amplifier Questions

Audiobahn A2200HCT (http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNA2200HCT)
Will this amplifier be enough for two of any of the above listed subwoofers?

Will I need this if I go with this amplifier and two of the above listed subwoofers:
Audiobahn CTCAP1.0 (http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNCTCAP10)

sr20de4evr
11-11-2004, 11:22 PM
I would rather get something that didn't suck


(sorry it had to be said ;))

threedd97
11-11-2004, 11:29 PM
Instead of being a jerk, you could have suggested something different. Do you even have any experience with Audiobahn? I do, and they sound great.

sr20de4evr
11-11-2004, 11:31 PM
lol, sorry, you never said to suggest anything else, you just said to pick between those 2

if you want other recommendations we'll need some sort of budget to work with

threedd97
11-11-2004, 11:34 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to snap back. Just felt raped. I've been a novice audio enthusiast for about 5 years now, but I don't keep up with audio technology nor do I delve into the details of it. My 4 year old system was stolen today while I was in class at college (go figure, trying to get an education while some gimp from some government housing across the street steals my crap. I hope he O.D.'s on the cocaine he bought with the money he got from my system).

Here are the things I need
2 12" Subwoofers
An amplifier that can push enough power to these
An Optima Yellowtop Battery
The enclosure costs will be seperated from the rest of the costs. I'm going to buy my own materials and look around at some designs and construct one myself. And believe me, I'm not going to half-ass it either. I just don't have the money to drop $400 on a custom molded box for my trunk like I want.

Budget
$1,500.00 - $2,000.00

If possible, could you fill me in on why Audiobahn isn't any good? I was always under the impression they were. I hear a lot of people put them down, but I honestly think they are a damned good company.

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 12:02 AM
it's no prob

I did come off kinda harsh, when you're on a forum for however many years and all the threads from new members are "I just got the fast and furious lightning audio package at best buy, am I cool now?", you tend to lose your tact. Either way, Audiobahn does have a reputation for being a high quality company, and honestly I don't know how. Maybe it's because of all the flash, or because they have some expensive products....honestly I have no idea. The subs can't hold their rated power (except for the Alum line, or so I've heard), they sound bad, but you can find the lower models for pretty cheap on ebay and they're decent if you just want to get loud and don't care how it sounds. The amps are better, but still better amps can be had for the cost. All in all they're middle-of-the-road at best when it comes to SPL, and as far as SQ goes they're very low on the scale.

$1500-$2000 into just the sub setup can get you very very far. Are you planning on getting a front stage to compliment the subs? What kind of music do you listen to? What kind of car will this be going into, or more specifically, how much space do you have to work with? Any objections to buying online?

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 12:03 AM
I think most of the people here are going to suggest you go with 1 15" RE Audio XXX or Adire Brahma rather than two 12s, from past experience lol. I also was aiming to have a system with 2 12s but these guys suggested these 15s instead and their reasoning makes sense.. but all i was going to say is if youre definately wanting 2 12s for space/ show reasons, say so now so that 2 12s actually get suggested, rather than another suggestion which might be a little more sensible. Also, about the audiobahns, thats kinda the thing where everybody thinks theyre good until they actually know whats out there, then they could never go back because there are dozens of high quality subs which would blow audiobahns out of the water for just a little more money. Audiobahn is also looked down upon, in my opinion, because they are overrated.. liek i said.. people think theyre awesome until they realize the truth. Oh and try not to be too offended if the guys give you a hard time here.. they just hear the same questions over and over and get annoyed

threedd97
11-12-2004, 12:09 AM
it's no prob

I did come off kinda harsh, when you're on a forum for however many years and all the threads from new members are "I just got the fast and furious lightning audio package at best buy, am I cool now?", you tend to lose your tact. Either way, Audiobahn does have a reputation for being a high quality company, and honestly I don't know how. Maybe it's because of all the flash, or because they have some expensive products....honestly I have no idea. The subs can't hold their rated power (except for the Alum line, or so I've heard), they sound bad, but you can find the lower models for pretty cheap on ebay and they're decent if you just want to get loud and don't care how it sounds. The amps are better, but still better amps can be had for the cost. All in all they're middle-of-the-road at best when it comes to SPL, and as far as SQ goes they're very low on the scale.

$1500-$2000 into just the sub setup can get you very very far. Are you planning on getting a front stage to compliment the subs? What kind of music do you listen to? What kind of car will this be going into, or more specifically, how much space do you have to work with? Any objections to buying online?

We'll go with $2000. This will include the amplifier and the subwoofers. I would rather purchase online. The cost is less and the selection is larger. Front stage I assume you mean door speakers and tweaters up front. The car I drive is in my signature. Trunk space is huge. I have a stock 8 speaker setup that I will not be changing. I'm just looking to replace what was stolen (with something a hell of a lot better). I'm looking for subwoofers that will hit low and high bass extremely well. I want a clean sound as well, even if that means detracting from how low it will hit.

As far as 2 12"s in comparison to 1 15", is the sound difference really that large? Is it just a misconception that I have that two smaller speakers can produce more sound than one larger speaker? Will the 15" reach lower sounds than 2 12"s?

Music I listen to
Techno (drum & bass and jungle mostly)
Hip-Hop / Rap (just to utilize my investment to it's fullest)
Rock / Alternative
Blues (SRV, Kenny Wayne Sheppherd, Clapton, Alman Bros., etc.)
Country

threedd97
11-12-2004, 12:16 AM
They just hear the same questions over and over and get annoyed

Suggestion to the advanced audiophiles and veteran forum users:
Make a FAQ or list of products in accordance to budgets, trunk space and quality. Possibly piece them together into variations of setups in accordance to variable budgets. This would probably cut redundant questions down by 75%.

I asked this "redundant" question because it would take me an hour to search right down to a T what I wanted, if it's even out there. I'd rather come to these forums and ask my question outright for a specific answer. Isn't that one of the reasons why these forums are here? I always help on PC hardware forums, no matter how many times I've answered that exact question or a similar one. Just some etiquette tips.

KMoney28
11-12-2004, 12:18 AM
[QUOTE=AndonD454]I think most of the people here are going to suggest you go with 1 15" RE Audio XXX or Adire Brahma....

LMAO, that is exactly right, you won't get very far without hearing the names Resonant Engineering and/or Adire Audio. Not tryin to put you guys down at all, I just think it's hilarious that you guys always recommend those 2 brands as if you were reps for them, and now people are noticing. But yea, anyhow, they're good, get a 15" it'll sound tight.

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 12:26 AM
well i knwo they already have a link to a site where all basic car audio stuff can be learned so they dont have to explain the stuff that most people ask about, such as ohms, channels, wattage, etc. but i think it would save them time to set up a list of suggestions for specific price ranges and cars, but i think the biggest problem is that it would take too long to set this up.. there are so many subwoofers and every person has different wants for sizes, power, spl vs. sq, brand preferance, the list could go on.. i think if it was simple it would have been done.. but yeah thats what forums are for is talkign about stuff and for new guys to learn it, these guys have answered a ton of my questions.. i was just suggesting not taking any comments to personally because the questions can stress em out.. no big deal though thats why they come.. to help people out... but back to the topic... sounds like youre gonna end up with an sq oriented sub.. im not big on suggestions cause i dotn knwo what im talking about .. but what do you guys suggest

threedd97
11-12-2004, 12:32 AM
well i knwo they already have a link to a site where all basic car audio stuff can be learned so they dont have to explain the stuff that most people ask about, such as ohms, channels, wattage, etc. but i think it would save them time to set up a list of suggestions for specific price ranges and cars, but i think the biggest problem is that it would take too long to set this up.. there are so many subwoofers and every person has different wants for sizes, power, spl vs. sq, brand preferance, the list could go on.. i think if it was simple it would have been done.. but yeah thats what forums are for is talkign about stuff and for new guys to learn it, these guys have answered a ton of my questions.. i was just suggesting not taking any comments to personally because the questions can stress em out.. no big deal though thats why they come.. to help people out... but back to the topic... sounds like youre gonna end up with an sq oriented sub.. im not big on suggestions cause i dotn knwo what im talking about .. but what do you guys suggest

Just gather like the top 10 most knowledgable members about car audio on these forums, have them discuss amongst eachother their opinion on top brands and models that not only range in low and high prices but in different areas of sound such as competition level, clean sound, average use (I don't know what the different fields of sound are (SPL?)) and throw them into a compiled list with prices and what cars they would fit and sound in the best, etc. Just because they don't list a brand that's all eye-candy that some 15 year old wants and doesn't care about the sound quality, doesn't mean the list won't work. Tough shit to the kid who wants to be recommend garbage.

This list should include amplifiers, enclosures, materials, types of enclosures in accordance to the type of subwoofer, its size and what type of vehicle it will be installed in. Also include subwoofers themselves of course, head units, and even batteries / capacitors for the enthusiast looking to generate more power than the local power plant.

threedd97
11-12-2004, 12:35 AM
well i knwo they already have a link to a site where all basic car audio stuff can be learned so they dont have to explain the stuff that most people ask about, such as ohms, channels, wattage, etc. but i think it would save them time to set up a list of suggestions for specific price ranges and cars, but i think the biggest problem is that it would take too long to set this up.. there are so many subwoofers and every person has different wants for sizes, power, spl vs. sq, brand preferance, the list could go on.. i think if it was simple it would have been done.. but yeah thats what forums are for is talkign about stuff and for new guys to learn it, these guys have answered a ton of my questions.. i was just suggesting not taking any comments to personally because the questions can stress em out.. no big deal though thats why they come.. to help people out... but back to the topic... sounds like youre gonna end up with an sq oriented sub.. im not big on suggestions cause i dotn knwo what im talking about .. but what do you guys suggest

Yeah, no hard feelings. I'm way over his first reply. I'm very thankful he's taking the time to help me out a little.

I got a kick out of your last statement. Honesty is the best policy. At least you won't be bullshitting me with some suggestion you have no clue about. Thanks for helping me out as well. As small as the advice may seem, all of it is accounted for.

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 12:41 AM
yeah you guys are right, I feel like a broken record a lot of the time....I just have yet to hear or hear of anything better (except for the w7, but that's in a price range all it's own), so until then.....:)

If I was a mod believe me I would make a sticky, it would be a good idea, but I don't really have the time to type up a huge FAQ just to have it fall back in the thread archive like all the others.

As for 2 12s vs 1 15, in general the 15 will be able to play lower due to a lower resonant frequency, but the pair of 12's 9 times out of 10 will out displace the 15, meaning they will have the ability to get slightly louder at full output. However, to reach full output, they'll need twice as much power and a larger box (if that's a concern, which it appears it's not). Of course your budget would allow for a pair of 15s if you so desired......and if you could fit a 6cf ported box in your trunk.

[warning, incoming broken record]
It seems like a pair of XXX 15's would work if you could fit them, if not then a single 15 or a pair of 12s. Based on your post I would port, and tune to around 30hz if not slightly lower, if you got the pair you would want somewhere around 2000rms. You have the budget to allow for a very nice amp, a US Amps USA-2000 seems to fit the bill perfectly, and that's an extremely high quality amp. If you went with a single 15 instead, somewhere around 1500rms at 1 or 4ohm would be best, there are quite a few choices from companies like US Amps, Cadence, or even DLS belive it or not.

threedd97
11-12-2004, 12:48 AM
Thanks for all of the help. I'll shop around for these companies.

I went from 2 10" Orion Cobalts (pos) and a Kenwood 600W amp to nothing. If my budget allows, I'll go for the 2 15"s, but will just 1 15" and the 1500rms amp sound considerably cleaner and louder than my recently departed setup? I ask this just in case I can't afford 2 15"s and the larger amp.

Are there any online stores you recommend I check out? I've been to a couple of the more known (CarDomain and Crutchfield). But are there others that you find that are better?

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 12:57 AM
personally im sure even one 15 will blow the old system away sq and spl... but abotu the 2 15s.. i would measure out your trunk before you consider it too much.. those 15 mentioned above require huge boxes if there ported (or sealed for that matter)

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:03 AM
I will probably go with 1 15" for cost reasons. I don't want to take ALL of my trunk space. I found a reseller of U.S. Amps and found these:

USA-1000 (http://www.speedsound.com/caraudio.asp?pg=products&specific=jplnerd0)
USA-1000X (http://www.speedsound.com/caraudio.asp?pg=products&specific=jplnooi0)

Which is better?

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:07 AM
The XXX you can buy factory direct from www.reaudio.com, they don't have prices on there but the 15" is around $430 shipped and the 12" is around $380 shipped. As for amps, the lowest prices for Cadence used to be at www.usacaraudio.com, but I have no idea what happened to that site. I haven't found a good replacement site yet, but there are a few authorized dealers on www.caraudioforum.com who can get you a good deal (you'll have to run a search on there though as I don't know who specifically the dealers are), and the lowest prices I've found for US Amps is www.speedsound.com

Were those 10's ported or sealed? Actually either way a ported XXX 15 will....god I can't even come up with a good metaphor, it's too late. Are the Cobalts the C-series? If so a single XXX 15 will have the same linear displacement as 8 of the 10" C-series, it will be absolutely no contest.

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:07 AM
i suppose in my opinion.. the 1000x.. only because if youre buying a XXX or Brahma.. they will be dual 2 ohm... unless you talk to the company and specify otherwise.. and the dual 2 can only be run at 4 ohms or 1 ohm

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:09 AM
I will probably go with 1 15" for cost reasons. I don't want to take ALL of my trunk space. I found a reseller of U.S. Amps and found these:

USA-1000 (http://www.speedsound.com/caraudio.asp?pg=products&specific=jplnerd0)
USA-1000X (http://www.speedsound.com/caraudio.asp?pg=products&specific=jplnooi0)

Which is better?


You'll need more power than that for a XXX

but to answer your question, the 1000X would be better as it provides full power at 4ohm instead of 2ohm (the XXX is dual 2, it can only be wired to 1 or 4 ohm)

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:10 AM
The XXX you can buy factory direct from www.reaudio.com, they don't have prices on there but the 15" is around $430 shipped and the 12" is around $380 shipped. As for amps, the lowest prices for Cadence used to be at www.usacaraudio.com, but I have no idea what happened to that site. I haven't found a good replacement site yet, but there are a few authorized dealers on www.caraudioforum.com who can get you a good deal (you'll have to run a search on there though as I don't know who specifically the dealers are), and the lowest prices I've found for US Amps is www.speedsound.com

Were those 10's ported or sealed? Actually either way a ported XXX 15 will....god I can't even come up with a good metaphor, it's too late. Are the Cobalts the C-series? If so a single XXX 15 will have the same linear displacement as 8 of the 10" C-series, it will be absolutely no contest.

That is where I found the US Amps at. Great prices. Which amp would be better for one XXX 15", the Cadence or US Amps?

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:10 AM
damnit I'm just too slow tonight.....

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:10 AM
also, though, check those sites sr20 just gave because i think i would want to find a mono amp that was stable at 1 ohm to run the 15 with.. maybe 2 ch. is better but ive always been told monos are the best sub amps

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:12 AM
well, I would rate US Amps slightly above Cadence, the problem is US Amps only has 1000 and 2000 watt models, the 2000 watt one would be better for the XXX but it's nearly $1000. In that regard I would say that Cadence would be the better choice, you can get a ZRS-8 or Z7000 for around $600, either of which would give you 1500 @ 1ohm

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:14 AM
good suggestions.. makes me wish i had the money for an amp like those

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:15 AM
Sounds great. I guess I'm going with the Cadence 1500 @ 1 ohm with a XXX 15". The reason I'm penny pinching in a way is because it'll just take me that much longer to purchase a more expensive setup. Will I need a second alternator or battery? Or just replace my Walmart battery with an Optima Yellowtop?

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:19 AM
i would suggest the yellowtop/redtop for sure.. not sure how many amps your alternator puts out.. but regardless i wouldnt suggest another.. but rather a rebuild or replacement of the one you have.. if necessary.. i dont know thats another couple hundred so lets see what sr20 says

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:21 AM
what size is your stock alternator?
on a car that big I'm guessing it will be around 100 amps, that paired with a yellowtop and the magic 3 upgrade should hold you over. I have the same amp on a Brahma 15 in my car, on the stock battery and stock 80 amp alt. When it really gets going it will drag the system voltage down into the 12's, but at that level it's almost unbearable to be in the car, and that's just sealed. I can't even imagine what it would be like ported, the words "retarded amounts of output" come to mind. Haibane can shine some light on the subject as well, he as a XXX 15 on an eD nine.1 (~1500x1) and he enjoys it.

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:27 AM
how is 1500+ watts running on an 80 amp with a stock battery not killing your car? my friends truck with a sotck battery is 80 amps and he cant even turn his volume up with a 1000 watt fosgate amp without it killing it

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:27 AM
oh, and if you're curious, I have some pics of the ZRS-8 (since the pics that are on their site suck)
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/areynol1/hosting/audio/zrs8_01.jpg
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/areynol1/hosting/audio/zrs8_02.jpg
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/areynol1/hosting/audio/zrs8_03.jpg
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/areynol1/hosting/audio/zrs8_04.jpg
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/areynol1/hosting/audio/zrs8_05.jpg

I would say it's the highest quality amp I've ever owned, but after buying the Linear Power, that would be a lie

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 01:29 AM
and i feel dumb for asking but whats the magic three upgrade involve

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:34 AM
how is 1500+ watts running on an 80 amp with a stock battery not killing your car? my friends truck with a sotck battery is 80 amps and he cant even turn his volume up with a 1000 watt fosgate amp without it killing it

When it drags the voltage into the 12's, that means it's pulling so much power that it's completely saturated the alternator and it's taking the rest of what it needs from the battery. Too much of that and the battery will run dead while the car's still running, but unless you're listening to a test tone there will be enough breaks in between the huge draws to keep the battery charged. Like I said though, at that level it's unbearable to be in the car, I've only done that once and that's while I was standing outside the car filming the sub.

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:35 AM
and i feel dumb for asking but whats the magic three upgrade involve

underhood wiring, you use 4awg or larger and add it next to the stock wiring, specifically it's
alternator + to battery +
battery - to ground
engine to ground

KMoney28
11-12-2004, 01:37 AM
[QUOTE=sr20de4evr] As for amps, the lowest prices for Cadence used to be at www.usacaraudio.com, but I have no idea what happened to that site

Try www.lightav.com and talk to Jerry(good guy) I believe there are Cadence amps and may even be an authorized dealer, and you may be able to negotiate price a bit too. If not, Sr20, whatta you think about that 2000 watt rms 4000 watt peak Audiobahn amp dog????

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:37 AM
Found the Cadence ZRS-8 for $660.95. Good deal?

http://www.audio-direct.com/cgi-bin/pgen_asp/pagegen.asp?itemnum=ZRS-8

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:40 AM
Try www.lightav.com and talk to Jerry(good guy) I believe there are Cadence amps and may even be an authorized dealer, and you may be able to negotiate price a bit too. If not, Sr20, whatta you think about that 2000 watt rms 4000 watt peak Audiobahn amp dog????
I might give it a shot if I ever need another Cadence


Found the Cadence ZRS-8 for $660.95. Good deal?

http://www.audio-direct.com/cgi-bin/pgen_asp/pagegen.asp?itemnum=ZRS-8
I got mine for $650 from a local shop, so I'd say that's not a very good deal.

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:41 AM
It's so hard to find a dealer. I'll probably end up buying it from there unless a better dealer falls in my lap.

Should I do sealed or ported enclosure?

KMoney28
11-12-2004, 01:43 AM
This thread is getting the most hits I've ever seen in a 30 minute spand.

Which reminds me: 100th Post!!

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:47 AM
ported, 4cf tuned to say, 28hz

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:47 AM
I'm a great conversationalist. Congradulations on the 100th post. All thanks to my "redundant" thread :).

Seriously though, thanks for everyone's help. Just waiting on a final piece of advice from sr20 on this setup:

XXX 15" Subwoofer
Cadence ZRS-8 Amplifier

Also am waiting on a link to a dealer of Cadence amps that have good deals. It can come from anyone though. I searched around on the site sr20 linked me to, but the forum only linked me to the site that is down.

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:50 AM
That sounds like quite the beastly setup

as for caraudioforum, their server sucks, if you try again it will probably go

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:51 AM
ported, 4cf tuned to say, 28hz

I need to goto bed, so if you could just tell me real quick what "cf" is short for, that would be awesome.

KMoney28
11-12-2004, 01:51 AM
Lol, thanks, you should just rip of Sr20's entire signature

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 01:52 AM
cubic feet

Haibane can give you the specs for his box when he finds this thread, It's somewhere around there, though it may be tuned a bit higher

threedd97
11-12-2004, 01:53 AM
Lol, thanks, you should just rip of Sr20's entire signature

I don't want that much money invested in my sound. Besides, the subwoofer is a different brand. And my head unit is going to be a Pioneer, not Alpine.

KMoney28
11-12-2004, 01:56 AM
Haha I know, I was just messin with you. 1 15" in a ported with a nice amp(like Cadence) should sound nice, and be loud. I went for spl so mine gets hella loud, but only sounds marginal sq wise.

threedd97
11-12-2004, 02:07 AM
Oh yeah, head units. I plan on selling my DEH-P5600MP for a new head unit.

So the question remains, which head unit would you recommend to me?
Pioneer DEH-P960MP
Pioneer DEH-P860MP

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 10:17 AM
When it drags the voltage into the 12's, that means it's pulling so much power that it's completely saturated the alternator and it's taking the rest of what it needs from the battery. Too much of that and the battery will run dead while the car's still running, but unless you're listening to a test tone there will be enough breaks in between the huge draws to keep the battery charged. Like I said though, at that level it's unbearable to be in the car, I've only done that once and that's while I was standing outside the car filming the sub.

well that makes sense... but im still curious as to why my friends truck cant handle what your car can if its about the same electrical setup(minus the wire setup you just told me about). He has only 1000 rms and cant turn it up more than about half way before his voltage meter in his car would flick all the way to the left (about 6-8 volts on the guage). He bought a capacitor even though i told him it wouldnt do much.. but i think even after we install that today he wont get half the potential that he could out of his subs.. and theyre only solo barics so he needs to turn it up to really hear em.

GSteg
11-12-2004, 11:19 AM
remember, his truck is probably bigger so the engine and accessories will draw more current. Car manufacturers didn't make an alternator just for car audio you know. ;)


Another thing is that the alternator does not always put out the same mount of power. The power it makes varies with the engine RPM. Most of the stock alternator won't make power until higher RPM. If your friend has a truck that makes a good load of low end power, chances are that it doesn't need to rev as high as a 4 cyl. engine to get power. And if the engine does not reach high enough RPM, then the alternator will not make maximum. Now i'm not telling him to run his car at 4k RPM everywhere he goes. lol.


get rid of the cap, it's making things worse than helping it. You're putting an extra load on the alternator.

How old is your friend's battery?

How loud does he turn on ?

Having an amp capable of 1000w does not always mean its putting out that much. Some people (like me:p) can claim to have a 1000w amp and not have a problem with electrical power, but in reality, my sub will only see about 300w at most if i'm lucky since I don't blast my music around.

AndonD454
11-12-2004, 05:07 PM
batterys two years old, he has a 91 f 150.. he only has his music up about 1/4 of the way and his amp up about 3/4 of the way and hes blowin 80 amp fuses. im sure his amps only puttin otu like 900 watts of so.. nto the 1000 it claims.. btu its an RF so it cant be all that overrated. even still.. his voltage guage should be goin crazy with such low volume if people can run 1500 watts before their guages bottom out.

CBFryman
11-12-2004, 08:20 PM
We'll go with $2000. This will include the amplifier and the subwoofers. I would rather purchase online. The cost is less and the selection is larger. Front stage I assume you mean door speakers and tweaters up front. The car I drive is in my signature. Trunk space is huge. I have a stock 8 speaker setup that I will not be changing. I'm just looking to replace what was stolen (with something a hell of a lot better). I'm looking for subwoofers that will hit low and high bass extremely well. I want a clean sound as well, even if that means detracting from how low it will hit.

As far as 2 12"s in comparison to 1 15", is the sound difference really that large? Is it just a misconception that I have that two smaller speakers can produce more sound than one larger speaker? Will the 15" reach lower sounds than 2 12"s?

Music I listen to
Techno (drum & bass and jungle mostly)
Hip-Hop / Rap (just to utilize my investment to it's fullest)
Rock / Alternative
Blues (SRV, Kenny Wayne Sheppherd, Clapton, Alman Bros., etc.)
Country

$2000 for just a sub stage? im assumeing SQL... well if you want to put a XXX or Brahma to shame in SPL and still hold nearly equal SQ... DD9500 series... my god SR20 how did you not bring this up... 1 9515 will cost you around $650. has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ. a good 2000-3000w RMS amp will work well. DD underrates. this woofer is rated to 1200RMS but could easily handle 1600RMS. reccomended Music wattage is 2400 RMS but they could easily handle 3000RMS and they hit their thermal peak (rated) at 4800w...however i have seen 3000w on each coil in SPL vehicles. that is 5-10sec burps... DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w. a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity. the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more. the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent. there fore a greatter thermal wattage will be needed but i think you will be more htan satisfied with the 9500...though you will be quite happy with the XXX or Brahma as well. however your stock 8 speaker stereo may not suffice if you are wanting to play either of these woofers at maximum potential volume... the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.

sr20de4evr
11-12-2004, 11:27 PM
I didn't bring it up because I'm not a fan of DD

The 9500 won't be any louder than the XXX unless he steps up the power a TON, and no the SQ is not better. I really don't know where you're coming up with this stuff, the 9515 only has a 16mm xmax (compared to the XXX's 32mm), the thing with the 9515 is it has close to a 75mm xmech (not xmax!). Yes it can physically move that far if you feed it 4-5kw, but it will sound like royal ass doing it, and you will thermal the coil if you keep it up for any longer than a short burp. Also the 9515 has one of the peakiest BL curves in the history of mankind, you would have to be 100% blind in order to think it was anywhere close to flat.

It's an SPL sub that doesn't sound as bad on music as the MT, I wouldn't consider it anything more if I were you.

threedd97
11-13-2004, 04:17 AM
$2000 for just a sub stage? im assumeing SQL... well if you want to put a XXX or Brahma to shame in SPL and still hold nearly equal SQ... DD9500 series... my god SR20 how did you not bring this up... 1 9515 will cost you around $650. has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ. a good 2000-3000w RMS amp will work well. DD underrates. this woofer is rated to 1200RMS but could easily handle 1600RMS. reccomended Music wattage is 2400 RMS but they could easily handle 3000RMS and they hit their thermal peak (rated) at 4800w...however i have seen 3000w on each coil in SPL vehicles. that is 5-10sec burps... DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w. a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity. the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more. the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent. there fore a greatter thermal wattage will be needed but i think you will be more htan satisfied with the 9500...though you will be quite happy with the XXX or Brahma as well. however your stock 8 speaker stereo may not suffice if you are wanting to play either of these woofers at maximum potential volume... the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.

I'm not looking for all of that. I don't wnat to have to have a secondary alternator installed and drop $2000 on that kind of amplifier either. Thanks for the input, but this is really left for the SPL enthusiast who wants to sit outside of his car and rattle it to death.

threedd97
11-13-2004, 04:27 AM
Gah, I'm flip flopping between the USA 2000X and the Cadence ZRS-8.

Help me make my decision. Will the USA 2000X make enough of a difference to justify paying $300+ more?

CBFryman
11-13-2004, 07:57 AM
SR20 have you ever even heard a 9515 in an SQ set up? ive heard 3 and the responce is very flat at low and high volumes. the 9500 isnt DD's SPL woofer. DD's only SPL woofer is 9900 which cost twice that of the 9500. but even the 9900 has good flat responce because it is a very flexible woofer and needs to be able to play at the resonant frequincy of whatever vehicle it is chosen to play in. the only reason DD markets to SPL is because that is all kids who also buy mainstream crap will notice DD. it is the same as JL, but DD doesnt waste their time on marketing ploy's like JL does and therefore saves cash and their woofers dont cost more. all higher end DD woofers are hand made and precision built. as apposed to RE who has theirs flued and asembled by machien. i think you need to show more respect to DD if all you have heard of DD are SPL enclosures and amps in every day drivers...

sr20de4evr
11-13-2004, 11:46 AM
DD is not the same as JL, not in any way

yes I have heard the 9500 in SQL setups and they get very loud, but the SQ could be better. Like I said before they are an SPL sub that sounds decent on music. They're for an SPL competitor who wants to be able to listen to their system every day without switching out the sub and have it still sound decent. The Brahma, XXX, w7, etc are the opposite, they're for someone who wants the ultimate in SQ, but they want to be able to do decent if they were to enter an SPL competition too.

I would consider DD's lower lines similar to RE's lower lines as far as performance, goals, price, etc go, but when you get to the XXX and the 9500, they really split apart.

sr20de4evr
11-13-2004, 11:50 AM
Gah, I'm flip flopping between the USA 2000X and the Cadence ZRS-8.

Help me make my decision. Will the USA 2000X make enough of a difference to justify paying $300+ more?

I wouldn't think so, but I've never owned a US Amps

One thing to consider is the 2000X is a class a/b amp, some say that class a/b will have better control over the sub than a class d due to their output stages, and they think that a/b sounds better on subs. I'm not sure how much truth that holds, but the other side of the argument is class a/b isn't nearly as efficient as class d. The 2000X will probably be about 50-60% efficient, while the ZRS-8 will be closer to 80-90%. So if each amp was putting out 1500rms, the ZRS-8 would have to draw around 130 amps, and the 2000X would have to draw around 200 amps.

GSteg
11-13-2004, 12:52 PM
has a far greater SPL capabilities while retaining equal SQ.

equal sound quality..maybe if god spread SQ dust powder on it. the XXX is going to have less distortion. that's the advantage of flat BL.


DD doesnt tell where the woofer will reach maximum excursion but i would say around 2800w.

they don't tell you when the sub reaches max excursion because they can't. no company will tell you unless they specify a box because excursion is dependent of the enclosure.


a 5cuft enclosure tuned to 30Hz will offer great SQ. a put about 65-75sqin of port area on it for good port velocity.


IMO, a 3.5 cubes box would be better than 5 cubes. a ported box, unlike a sealed box, will give you more peaks when you increase the volume. Sealed box do the opposite, i gives you a smoother response. 5.0 cubes would be where you would more SPL than SQ.


the XXX has 32mm xmax 1 way which is 64mm total and the 9500 has 75mm... a little less than 1/2" more.

like sr20 said, the 75mm figure is peak to peak xmech or however DD wants to call their magical number. That is not close to one way xmax at all.

the 9500 offers a flat BL curve just like the XBL^2 motor but isnt as efficent.

the 9500 uses the standard motor. That motor (same topology as found in many other subs) has no way of channeling it's magnetic flux, so you're going to lose BL as soon the coil is moving away from it's rest position. If the 9500 has a flat BL curve, I can't wait to see what a parabolic curve would look like :p

the XXX will be hitting in the high 130's low 140's and the 9500 mid-high 140's... and in a pure SPL set up into the high 150's...i think there have even been a few cases of a single 9500 breaking into the 160's on the old Mic's.

the XXX is not made to shoot out SPL out of it's cone. It's made for sound quality. Ask David or Scott from RE. It is no way a sub made just for SPL. Just straight sound quality, but it happens that it can get loud also. Kinda like the W7.



ive heard 3 and the responce is very flat at low and high volumes.

[quote]how are you able to tell if the response was flat with your ears? I personally can't, at least not at high volume anyways. That is unless, you got a built in RTA in your ears. lol. I am unfortunate to not have that. :D

[quote]
but even the 9900 has good flat responce because it is a very flexible woofer and needs to be able to play at the resonant frequincy of whatever vehicle it is chosen to play in.
all subs can play at the resonant freq. of the car. even a cheap 5" sub can do that. lol. Again, how is the 9900 "flat response" measured? Every box is going to yield different response, and even then, you're going to have to EQ it to make it flat after it's in the car. No sub is flat straight out of the box


the only reason DD markets to SPL is because that is all kids who also buy mainstream crap will notice DD. it is the same as JL, but DD doesnt waste their time on marketing ploy's like JL does and therefore saves cash and their woofers dont cost more.



have you seen JL's marketing department? It's smaller than 15'x15' i believe. It's the dealers that are spouting out the words. You have contradictred yourself. You can buy a 13w7 through a dealer for $600 (providing the dealer does not jack up the price). the 9500 is $650 as you said, and the 9900 is about double of that. How does their woofer not cost more?


all higher end DD woofers are hand made and precision built. as apposed to RE who has theirs flued and asembled by machien.

machine assembled does not mean it's cheap. I bet the car 90% of the people are riding on are machine assembled. Yet we don't see them break down everywhere. What if I were to say the W7 uses custom parts and the only regular off the shelf parts used is the 4 bolts to hold the basket to the motor? Does that mean DD is cheap because it uses off the shelf parts? of course not.


i think you need to show more respect to DD if all you have heard of DD are SPL enclosures and amps in every day drivers...


I have respect for DD, hence why I bought my pair of DD3515 3 years ago. lol. Sounded nice, but it had to go because I was looking for better sound reproduction.



I'll put on my flaming suit now
:p

CBFryman
11-13-2004, 02:11 PM
equal sound quality..maybe if god spread SQ dust powder on it. the XXX is going to have less distortion. that's the advantage of flat BL.

9500's where built for sound reproduction...what are you talking about? my god.




they don't tell you when the sub reaches max excursion because they can't. no company will tell you unless they specify a box because excursion is dependent of the enclosure.

To my knowledge Adire has charts on all of hteir woofers to what sized sealed enclsoure will allow for maximum excursion... neitehr RE nor DD do this.




IMO, a 3.5 cubes box would be better than 5 cubes. a ported box, unlike a sealed box, will give you more peaks when you increase the volume. Sealed box do the opposite, i gives you a smoother response. 5.0 cubes would be where you would more SPL than SQ.

3.5cubes on a singular 15 displacing htat much air? and you are talking to me about SQ? i geuss so if you like the sound of a very windy port. a ported box only peaks at around the tuneing frequincy, this peak can be easily off set for SQ by low tuning and proper port size for proper port velocity. along time ago Halibane showed me what playing around in WinISD will do for you...maybe you should do the same.



like sr20 said, the 75mm figure is peak to peak xmech or however DD wants to call their magical number. That is not close to one way xmax at all.

75mm is what it takes to bottom out the suspension. which can be done with out, as sr20 stated, thermaling the coils. DD also markets agianst Xmax since, as is true, xmax doesnt state how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction. if 10mm out of your excursion is the morot trying to slow and pull the cone in the other dirtection bass gets slopy and isnt as loud.

the 9500 uses the standard motor. That motor (same topology as found in many other subs) has no way of channeling it's magnetic flux, so you're going to lose BL as soon the coil is moving away from it's rest position. If the 9500 has a flat BL curve, I can't wait to see what a parabolic curve would look like :p

9500 uses a standard coil...however the magnet set up uses extra long magentic feilds. though it isnt as good as XBL it is still the highest of highs. im not and never did bash the XXX nor the Brahma. im jsut tired of everyone saying "oh yes they have XBL^2, they are the greatest in the world for SQ and SQL."



the XXX is not made to shoot out SPL out of it's cone. It's made for sound quality. Ask David or Scott from RE. It is no way a sub made just for SPL. Just straight sound quality, but it happens that it can get loud also. Kinda like the W7.

the XXX wasnt made to shoot out SQ either. because if they did they wouldnt be paying adire for XBL^2. they would most likely be paying JL for DMA technoligy since, after all, when looking for SQ XBL delivers almsot no THD but DMA does also. the XXX is a widely used SPL woofer and so is the Brahma and so is the 9100, 9500, and 9900 (which are so expensive because DD only makes a limited ammount).


I have respect for DD, hence why I bought my pair of DD3515 3 years ago. lol. Sounded nice, but it had to go because I was looking for better sound reproduction.

3500's are good for daily drivers, if you where looking for SQ i would have reccomended the 9100 or 2500. but w/e.

I'll put on my flaming suit now
:p

ya you go ahead and do that.




DD is not the same as JL, not in any way

yes I have heard the 9500 in SQL setups and they get very loud, but the SQ could be better. Like I said before they are an SPL sub that sounds decent on music. They're for an SPL competitor who wants to be able to listen to their system every day without switching out the sub and have it still sound decent. The Brahma, XXX, w7, etc are the opposite, they're for someone who wants the ultimate in SQ, but they want to be able to do decent if they were to enter an SPL competition too.

I would consider DD's lower lines similar to RE's lower lines as far as performance, goals, price, etc go, but when you get to the XXX and the 9500, they really split apart.

im not disagreeing on the DD wanting to be the guy who wants loud and still sound good... one reason why i like DD so is because thats me. i like my SQ while listening to songs such as "stairway to hevan" or "My Own Prison" or "buffalo soldier" etc... but i also like my loud ear shaddring distortion and ground pounding bass on songs such as "immigrant song" or "heart breaker" or "crazy train" or "iron man" or "freek-a-leek (lol)" however i would beleive a DD1000 or DD2000'a' would put a W0 or even W3 to shame. and the W6's are about on the DD2500 level but cost a tad more and DD3500's will liekly put W6v2's away SPL v SPL...about equal in the SQL department. the W7 is the only JL woofer i have respect for. but for this boards information MSRP on a W713 is $999.00.... and i would take a DD9917 over a JL 13W7 anyday...and the 9917 is only 300 more...

sr20de4evr
11-13-2004, 03:25 PM
9500's where built for sound reproduction...what are you talking about? my god.

"Sound reproduction" sure, every speaker is, that's the definition of a speaker....but the 9500 was not built with the ultimate goal of SQ in mind

3.5cubes on a singular 15 displacing htat much air? and you are talking to me about SQ? i geuss so if you like the sound of a very windy port. a ported box only peaks at around the tuneing frequincy, this peak can be easily off set for SQ by low tuning and proper port size for proper port velocity. along time ago Halibane showed me what playing around in WinISD will do for you...maybe you should do the same.

Port noise has to do with the crossectional area of the port, not the box size. And it was me who showed you the WinISD plots, and I'll let GSteg defend himself against your "suggestions", I don't think you know who you're talking to.

75mm is what it takes to bottom out the suspension. which can be done with out, as sr20 stated, thermaling the coils. DD also markets agianst Xmax since, as is true, xmax doesnt state how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction. if 10mm out of your excursion is the morot trying to slow and pull the cone in the other dirtection bass gets slopy and isnt as loud.

I said you can only get the sub to move that far if you feed it an absurd amount of power for a burp, if you hold it out for any more than a couple seconds you will melt down the coil. And I don't think you even know how a speaker works based on your second statement. Xmag is how far the cone can move before your BL drops to 70% of its rest value, Xsus is the point where the compliance of the suspension drops to 25% of its rest value, and Xmax is the lesser of the two. Xmech is how far the cone can physically move before you hit something hard, it will be past the Xmag and the Xsus, which means that at this point neither the motor nor the suspension is moving linearly anymore, and you have quite a bit of distortion in the sound. But with SPL, distortion doesn't matter, just as long as the speaker doesn't self-destruct. You're right the Xmax doesn't state "how well a motor can stop a coil and then turn it a round in the other direction", because that doesn't even apply really. The motor doesn't have to work to stop the coil, there is enough restoring force in the suspension to stop the cone almost immediately if you cut the power going to the motor, so everything you just said is a non-issue.

9500 uses a standard coil...however the magnet set up uses extra long magentic feilds. though it isnt as good as XBL it is still the highest of highs. im not and never did bash the XXX nor the Brahma. im jsut tired of everyone saying "oh yes they have XBL^2, they are the greatest in the world for SQ and SQL."

Again, I don't think you have any idea about the inner workings of the magnetic field, flux, BL, etc. If you did then you'd realize that your statement has nothing to do with what GSteg said.

the XXX wasnt made to shoot out SQ either. because if they did they wouldnt be paying adire for XBL^2. they would most likely be paying JL for DMA technoligy since, after all, when looking for SQ XBL delivers almsot no THD but DMA does also. the XXX is a widely used SPL woofer and so is the Brahma and so is the 9100, 9500, and 9900 (which are so expensive because DD only makes a limited ammount).

Actually it was made for SQ
And again you still don't know what XBL^2 or DMA are, they're Adire's and JL's answers to flat-BL. Both accomplish the exact same thing, just through different methods. Don't really know what that THD comment is about, BL non-linearities are a form of distortion, one of the main forms, so by reducing them you reduce the distortion, which reduces the THD. Both XBL^2 and DMA do this.....

and DD3500's will liekly put W6v2's away SPL v SPL...about equal in the SQL department.

You honestly think the 3500's can compete with the w6v2s in SQ? The w6v2 is one of the best SQ drivers ever made, and you even said yourself "3500's are good for daily drivers, if you where looking for SQ i would have reccomended the 9100 or 2500. but w/e". Make up your mind, because you keep contradicting yourself.

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