supre or turbo?

u prelude owners supercharge ur car or turbo it? if ya havent done either one what would ya like to have? or just keep it n/a? i was thinkin of doin it to my car... greedy turbo or jackson super

Jackson SC's suck. Either a centrifical supercharger or a turbo will be even better. Turbos always produce more torque.

i got a fmax turbo kit for my 01 prelude....its pretty cool, make sure you have a engine management system for the tuning!!!!

Roots blowers like JS supercharger are ineffiecent, and can only run very minor boost, like 4psi, without buying their upgrades...

A cyntrifugal sc is basically the compressor part of a turbo driven by a step-up gear drive (or something similer) that is driven by a shaft. The amount of boost is directly proptional to the engine rpm, with the HP and Torque peaking @ redline. This is done to prevent compressor surge. In a turbo, which is exhaust driven, when the proper psi level is reached, the exhaust gases by-pass the turbo into the downpipe to prevent it from spinning any faster and stuffering compressor surge...this is how your turbo will say at, say, 8psi from 6200 rpm until redline and not contuine to have the boost level rise. In a cyntrifugal sc, there are no exhuast gases spinning the turbine...the shaft connected tot he crack spins the compressor. You can't disconect the shaft for the crank, gear box or belt drive once max boost is reached...this means is peak boost was achived eariler in the rpm band, the boost level would contuine to "surge" or raise. By having the boost peak @ redline, this dangerous problem is overted. However, the end result is lower torque numbers than a turbo, until peak boost at redline. This also results in significant "boost lag" (you know it better as "turbo lag." Boost lag is a better term, since is refers to the lag time that can exsist until the noticable on-set of bost occurs). A Cyntrifugal SC tends to be very laggy, with noticable boost on-set no occuring until you are a ways into the rpm band. The the peak HP numbers can be good, but this power isn't really available until farther into the RPM band.

A turbo on low boost will give you good power and torque. Moreover, running a small turbo and you properly size the turbo, you can significantly decrease or eliminate noticable boost lag. Turbo sizing can effect the response of the turbo greatly, so it is important to size the turbo properly for the app. In this case, a good small turbo should get you to an 6-8psi level safe for your motor, without much noticabe lag. It should also produce good HP and torque numbers, which are much lower in the RPM band (meaning much more usable) than the Power numbers from a Cyntrifugal SC, where they occur @ redline.

I don't own a Prelude, but I can't stand super-chargers. They are far too parasitic. Turbo-chargers are much more efficient and make power from lost power.

Turbo all the way.

I don't own a Prelude, but I can't stand super-chargers. They are far too parasitic. Turbo-chargers are much more efficient and make power from lost power.

Turbo all the way.

:1:

I don't own a Prelude, but I can't stand super-chargers. They are far too parasitic. Turbo-chargers are much more efficient and make power from lost power.

Turbo all the way.
:werd:

Sorry Polygon but I must argue. Even though I'm for a turbo, centrifical SC's are much more advanced now. The belt drive losses are about as equal to the loss you get from a turbine housing restriction. But the reason I am for turbo is because they make more low end torque and Honda's need all they can get.

Sorry Polygon but I must argue. Even though I'm for a turbo, centrifical SC's are much more advanced now. The belt drive losses are about as equal to the loss you get from a turbine housing restriction. But the reason I am for turbo is because they make more low end torque and Honda's need all they can get.

I agree to a certian extent. I have my issues with cyntirfugal SC's, but they arn't the ineffieceny, as they can be as effiecent as a turbo, and are often in the 70% plus range, as the vortec centirfugal SC is around 73% precent effiecent, far more eficent than a roots based postive displacement blower like Jackson Racing. That's pretty efficent for a Cyntrifugal SC tough. However, a really good turbo is still more efficent, easily over the 72-73% of a good cyntrifugal sc like votrec.

I also prefer the turbo method to create power; use wasted energy versus a supercharger, crank driven and causing parasitic losses off the crank.

It the end, a Centrifugal SC works over a very norrow RPM band, due to the nature of it's design. It basically is a compressor side of a turbo conected to a step-up gear drive (or belt drive), which is connected to a shaft connected to the crank. As you know, the gear/belt drive contrls the speed at which the compressor turns. This gear/belt drive helps a control the speed of the Cyntrifugal SC compressor. The result is it spins the compressor, no where near the optimal bost producing speed @ the low rpms. Of course, this is done to prevent the compressor form overspeeding @ higher rpms into a choke condition. As a result of all this, a cyntrifugal SC reaches peak boost levels at redline. The result is a SC with no low end torque or power, one that suffers from boost/power lag desipte being connected to a crankshaft.

I just don't see this as a very efficent way of creating power, it's certainly not the best way to go about it IMO, espeically in a honda (which can use all the low end help it can get).

I find a good, properly sized turbo to be a far better option. With the newer ball-bearing turbos, the efficency can be great and boost lag can be kept to a minumim. The result is a motor that will make power accross the board, one that will have a significaqny on-set of boost at a much lower and more usable rpm. I just find this to be the better route of the 3 options (roots blower, cyntrifugal sc, turbo). :2cents:

Eckoman_pdx beat me to it.

:bigthumb:

Yes I wasn't arguing to the fact that a turbo is better suited for low end power(as I specifically stated!), just to the fact that now-a-days centrifical SC's do not have a whole lot of parasitic losses like polygon said.

just to let you all know on a dyno test a jackson supercharger made more hp over a greddy turbo kit...on a prelude that is....
225hp. vs. 195hp.
so some superchargers can be better than a turbo...but its all about how much your willing to spend on your motor.

I'd like to see this, post a link...

just to let you all know on a dyno test a jackson supercharger made more hp over a greddy turbo kit...on a prelude that is....
225hp. vs. 195hp.
so some superchargers can be better than a turbo...but its all about how much your willing to spend on your motor.

yes i would love to see this. jackson sc suck.

Hah, what do you want to bet that the greddy kit was left alone and put on...while the JRSC got it's water injection kit and more boost than greddy (which is a non-intercooled kit BTW).

Hah, what do you want to bet that the greddy kit was left alone and put on...while the JRSC got it's water injection kit and more boost than greddy (which is a non-intercooled kit BTW).

Exactly. The Jackson Racing SC wasn't left alone, that's for sure. It deifinatly had some of their "upgrades," whether it be water injecotr or some type of cooling or the fuel delivery. The Greddy "Kit," isn't much of a Kit. IMO, it's the worst Turbo kit on the market, espiecally in base from.

This is why SOOO many companies choose it as their "basis" to compare their supercharger to. It comes with nothing particlarly, stripped down. No intercooler at all, you have to even by a seperate BOV more often than not. This results in not much extra power until you buy these "extras" that are not part of the kit.

A good kit meanwhile, wheter it be Edelbrok, Revhard, Drag, Tubronetics, mpost of these not only INCLUDE the intercooler in the kit, but also include the BOV and other parts missing from the greddy "kit." These are all extra purchuses on the greddy kit.

The result is simple. Get the Jackson Racing SC, add liquid intercooler, water injection, anything to help there. Add athe fuel system delivery and managment upgrade. This allows for higher boost levels and better fuel delivery. Now I have known of cases where they have used a higher octane gas than ordinary supreme to allow for a little more boost in the tests, etc to nump up power.

Now conversly, use a greddy kit as the turbo comparison. A well known name, even among people without a clue. It comes in an absolute base from, barely enough to even call a "kit" IMO, no intercooler, BOV is extra. The also use what is IMO a dated design in their Mitsubishi turbo. This SERIOUSLY limits the power and boost capibilties out of the box. Now dyno that and compare. Of course the Jackson SC will have more power in this case. Even though the Greddy "KIT" in use was sold as a kit, it in not really complete. This alows then to compare dynos with a turbo "kit" and show more power. Many oridnary people will not know what just went on, andf how they went about planning the tes tto achive the results.

nicotine251, NOT ALL TURBOCHARGERS AND TURBO KITS ARE EQAUL!!! There are MANY factors that effect the output of kit.

Likewise, not all SC's are eqaul.

I can assure you, if they compared the Jackson Racing SC to a good complete turbo kit, or even a good DIY one, they WOULD NOT put out more power. I can guarentee you that dyno number for the greddy was straight out of the box, which is an INCOMPLETE KIT, no matter what they say. Selling a "Kit" where the intercooler and BOV sare extra is NO KIT!!! Of course they wil compare they SC to this "kit," it's incomplete and as a result can't put out anywhere near the power numbers a Turbo kit should. But most average people won't know this, they'll just see "hey, it outperformed a name brand Turbo I've heard of. APC is a name brand too, but that doesn't mean they sell great and complete products.

Don't believe everything you read in magazines. If you do, you'll also end up belieivng "K & G Racing's Direct Power System," or DPS for short, creates extra power and really works. I mean, Import Tuner and Turbo & High Performance Magizine say it does, they even show Dynos, so it must be true!!!

Anyone that's been around here for ANY amount of time at all KNOWS the DPS was the BIGGEST scam around and remembers it. Just because the magazines CLAIM it is great and creates power doesn't make it true. The DPS is a scam, always has been, no matter what they try to make you believe. Don't Believe everything you read, just because it's printed in a magazine or on some show.

BTW, guys, just for your info...this ins't the only thread this guy is going around pumping up those Jackson Racing SC numbers in to show the s

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2383400

LOL, yup. Good catch.

all this jrsc vs turbo is crap. do a search.

if your gonna compare the jrsc, compare it to a non cooled turbo setup.

if i had a more better way to cool the air with my old jrsc, i would have put down better numbers than the measly 234whp@11.5 psi. thats with uneven compression and some high intake temps.

id like to see my sc34 or my old t3/t4 compare with my old jrsc@11psi w/out the intercooler. i bet the results would be very comparable on a stock internalled b16. not to mention, a waste of time and money on the dyno.

in the end, all you need to know is, if you can cool the air more, you can put more air in the cylinders. if you can put more air in the cylinders your are going to make more power. whatever method you choose on throwing more air in the cylinders, just remember this concept if you seek more power. compare the jrsc vs a complete turbo kit with cost to achieve higher dyno numbers, the jrsc is gonna lose. compare driving experience with the jrsc vs complete turbo kit in downtown LA traffic, i kept the jrsc for that. compare the revhard turbo kit vs my homemade t3/t4 turbo kit, i pieced the kit and got hondata for that price (a few used parts, but, works just as well). what really disappoints me about these kits is that, for the price you pay for the kit, they could of least provided a better wastegate, intercooler (greddy doesnt even provide one for the price you pay for their kit that comes with an 18g turbo, they do however have good advertising people working for them), and cast mani. at least they provide piping that requires minimal work to put on. as for fuel management, thats how they are going to keep prices more affordable and somewhat on the safe side with an fmu.

the jrsc is a heat machine. dont you jrsc owners realize where your tip in detonation is coming from? if you want more affordable power, then this is not the route to go. a great fun fast drive, but, not fast enough if you are bitten by the boost bug. if you want more power by increasing the boost beyond 8 psi, you will need a cooling method (even@6psi, it is putting down some major heat). invest $1000 in the lht intercooler, and you can put down some good numbers.

fuel management and cooling shouldnt be referred to upgrades when your throwing more air into the cylinders. they should be considered neccessary.

all this jrsc vs turbo is crap. do a search.

if your gonna compare the jrsc, compare it to a non cooled turbo setup.

if i had a more better way to cool the air with my old jrsc, i would have put down better numbers than the measly 234whp@11.5 psi. thats with uneven compression and some high intake temps.

id like to see my sc34 or my old t3/t4 compare with my old jrsc@11psi w/out the intercooler. i bet the results would be very comparable on a stock internalled b16. not to mention, a waste of time and money on the dyno.

in the end, all you need to know is, if you can cool the air more, you can put more air in the cylinders. if you can put more air in the cylinders your are going to make more power. whatever method you choose on throwing more air in the cylinders, just remember this concept if you seek more power. compare the jrsc vs a complete turbo kit with cost to achieve higher dyno numbers, the jrsc is gonna lose. compare driving experience with the jrsc vs complete turbo kit in downtown LA traffic, i kept the jrsc for that. compare the revhard turbo kit vs my homemade t3/t4 turbo kit, i pieced the kit and got hondata for that price (a few used parts, but, works just as well). what really disappoints me about these kits is that, for the price you pay for the kit, they could of least provided a better wastegate, intercooler (greddy doesnt even provide one for the price you pay for their kit that comes with an 18g turbo, they do however have good advertising people working for them), and cast mani. at least they provide piping that requires minimal work to put on. as for fuel management, thats how they are going to keep prices more affordable and somewhat on the safe side with an fmu.

the jrsc is a heat machine. dont you jrsc owners realize where your tip in detonation is coming from? if you want more affordable power, then this is not the route to go. a great fun fast drive, but, not fast enough if you are bitten by the boost bug. if you want more power by increasing the boost beyond 8 psi, you will need a cooling method (even@6psi, it is putting down some major heat). invest $1000 in the lht intercooler, and you can put down some good numbers.

fuel management and cooling shouldnt be referred to upgrades when your throwing more air into the cylinders. they should be considered neccessary.

hok so we got this earth... wow thats a sweet earth! now onto the post.

you know its alot harder to cool the intake temps on a roots/eaton blower hence most arn't cooled while with a turbo kit *why did you pick greddy is it cause its the fucking worst? compared to the best and only roots blower*

You know i was about to post somthing worth while but my sex drive killed it....

wait no well sorta but your really misinforming people about the cooling of the JR blower like its easy cooling a turbo setup is hence both methods get more air in but for most all running same boost we can easly cool one forms of extra air so whats going to be better?

bah its 2am and i want some boobies more then to say your wrong and I invented the internet!

all this jrsc vs turbo is crap. do a search.

if your gonna compare the jrsc, compare it to a non cooled turbo setup.

if i had a more better way to cool the air with my old jrsc, i would have put down better numbers than the measly 234whp@11.5 psi. thats with uneven compression and some high intake temps.

id like to see my sc34 or my old t3/t4 compare with my old jrsc@11psi w/out the intercooler. i bet the results would be very comparable on a stock internalled b16. not to mention, a waste of time and money on the dyno.

in the end, all you need to know is, if you can cool the air more, you can put more air in the cylinders. if you can put more air in the cylinders your are going to make more power. whatever method you choose on throwing more air in the cylinders, just remember this concept if you seek more power. compare the jrsc vs a complete turbo kit with cost to achieve higher dyno numbers, the jrsc is gonna lose. compare driving experience with the jrsc vs complete turbo kit in downtown LA traffic, i kept the jrsc for that. compare the revhard turbo kit vs my homemade t3/t4 turbo kit, i pieced the kit and got hondata for that price (a few used parts, but, works just as well). what really disappoints me about these kits is that, for the price you pay for the kit, they could of least provided a better wastegate, intercooler (greddy doesnt even provide one for the price you pay for their kit that comes with an 18g turbo, they do however have good advertising people working for them), and cast mani. at least they provide piping that requires minimal work to put on. as for fuel management, thats how they are going to keep prices more affordable and somewhat on the safe side with an fmu.

the jrsc is a heat machine. dont you jrsc owners realize where your tip in detonation is coming from? if you want more affordable power, then this is not the route to go. a great fun fast drive, but, not fast enough if you are bitten by the boost bug. if you want more power by increasing the boost beyond 8 psi, you will need a cooling method (even@6psi, it is putting down some major heat). invest $1000 in the lht intercooler, and you can put down some good numbers.

fuel management and cooling shouldnt be referred to upgrades when your throwing more air into the cylinders. they should be considered neccessary.



First off, why this dead thred was brought back is beyond me...I mean, this thread was from October 2004!!!

But, since it was....

First off, thsi JRSC vs. Greddy crap? It's disscussed cuz nicotine251 earlier compared them...

now..compare it to a non-intercooled kit? Why, becuase it's hard as hell to cool a roots blower like a JRSC? Well, thats tough...just becuase one design makes it hard to cool doesnt mean you should compare it to the crappiest kit you can find.

The fact is it's hard to cool a roots blower. It's not easy, like on a centrifugal blower or a turbo. Second, Roots blowers are very ineeficant. The best barely crack the 60% range. A good turbo, like the GT28RS....can be upwards to 77% efficancy.

Unfortunatly, most kits use a t3/t4...while good for 400hp, it's not a quick spooler. Ebelbrock uses the GT28RS. The Disco Potoato sppols quick and can put down 350hp. That kit will eat a JRSC for lunch.

Correct, the more air you can cool the better your power. Simple really, same concept as a CAI. Cold air is more dense, and heat robs power. The fact that it's hard to cool a roots blower is the reason it hs no intercooler. Thats just a result of the design. That doesn't mean compare we should source the worst turbo kti we can, with no IC and compare them? Wh y should we leave an IC off a trubo? It's EASY to Cooler a turbo, its hard to cool a roots blower. That SHOULD be brought into consideration when comparing turbos and a roots blower. You need to compare strenghts and weaknesses or both.

YOu just shouldn't downgrade a turbo and leave off an IC becasue it's hard to put one on a roots blower. Greddy blows...you know that, I know that. Thats why the mags and JR like to compare the JRSC to Greddy kits in articles. I mean, a standard JRSC kit doesn't even include fuel management. Not even an FPR!!!! That needs to be mentioned. When comapring a kit, you need to compare HOW THEY COME, not make them worse so they are eqaul. Thta defeats the purpose of trying to find out what offers the most and best package.

I agree, Fuel Managment and Cooling shouldn't be considered upgrades. JRSC and Greddy both seem to feel cooling is, and JR include no fuel managment, not even an FPR or a Emanage like greddy does. I mean, why would you leave a Intercooler off a turbo like you old t3/t4...to prove a point. Yes, the result WOULD be closer if you didn't cool the turbo and had no fuel managment. But why should you leave off an interccoler? The Roots blower dosn't hace one becuase it's hard and expensive to do, there no easy way to cool a roots blower, most race apps doesn even have cooling. The blower is on the intake manifold, that makes it very hard to cool. Now a turbo is easy to cool, and much cheaper too. Just stick an air to air intercooler between the compressor and the intake manifold...the pipe runs from the turbo tot he intake manifold, making it very easy to cool, just through an IC i the front in the middle of the piping...there you go. This NEEDS to be considered when comparing a roots blower to a turbo, since its' hard to cool the roots blower and easy to cool the turbo

The roots blower is hard to cool, so it's typically not cooled...a turbo is easy to cool, so they are cooled. Any turbo kit manufactuer like greddy that leave off an IC is lazy and cheap. It's very easy to cool a turbo. JR leaving off an IC isn't lazy or cheap..it's a known fact it's hard to cool a roots blower. WHy do they compare their SC to Greddy? Simple, becuase Greddy is lazy and cheap, making them a great target!!! Add a few upgrades to the JRSC and presto...is compares and might even look better. The more honest apporach would be to take a kit that comes with what you'd expect for a turbo, like edelbrock...one that comes with a form of fuel management like an FPR at least...and an IC.

You shouldn't leave the IC off just because the JRSC doesn't have one. Thats the same fudging of numbers the magizines have make famous.

i would like to argue the point, but, that is just too much typing for me ;) just too much sc vs turbo for me.

i lay the argument in the seach function.

i would like to argue the point, but, that is just too much typing for me ;) just too much sc vs turbo for me.

i lay the argument in the seach function.
That's a nice way of saying eckoman is right :wink:

I tried to write somthing worthwhile out last night and failed maybe now I can

lets keep the crappy greddy vs JR for this. greddys blue box sucks honestly i'd trust the amish to tune my car before that thing but atleast it has a form of management. forced induction on anycar with no managment is scary sure yours might not blow up but just still half assing somthing. Not what i'd like to see from a company im' about to shell a lot of money out and trust my motor too.

you laid 234 HP out with 11 psi wow i'll probbbly be making more then that with a much nicer powerband next year sucking my own air unless this boost bug bites too hard then it'll be way higher #s. cost for that kinda power is insane vortec *other S/C* makes more.

I don't know if its been brought up yet but TOO modifies JR blowers for more power I just want to say hes full of shit if you could get that power why would ANYONE EVER go turbo?

This is one of those things argue as you may heck search you'll see over and over a turbo is a better setup hell why would some 03-04 cobra owners change the stock eaton blowers to a TT sytem when they gun for big #s?

bah i'm going to set my legs on fire now

one last thing how the fuck does Red Baron sell pizza yes its labeled as pizza with no god damned sauce just cheese??? no warning there greattttt.....


oh yea this thread is old enough it probbly has to shave speaking of that i gotta get teh women to tend to my back

isnt red baron the more expensive pizzas? no sauce on it? wouldnt that classify it as a breadstick? anyways, im a Tonys fan. For $2.50. it makes a great meal.

yea man its weird and not like I paid for pizza raiding the G/Fs fridge rules!
I myself am an ellios man. Tonys is good too.

I've never driven a SC car and don't know much about them, but I do know that when I had this same decision to make my research told me that it was much more $ per hp for SC as opposed to turbo.