Twin Turbo Swap... READ


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ZedEx
09-06-2004, 08:50 PM
Ok... So you have this awesome idea.

"Hey I cant afford a TT, so I'll just buy a TT engine and drop it in!"

... Ok you're not the first. You're actually on a long list of members who post this thread almost religously.

Pertaining to this idea:

-The Non-Turbo transmission WILL bolt right up, with minor modification.
-The gears in the Non-Turbo transmission, however, will not accomidate the 300+bhp of the VG30DETT.
-The EFI Harness will have to be replaced, or rewired.
-The ECU will have to be replaced, or retuned.
-The rear end will have to be replaced, the gears are different. Unless you're looking for extremely quick gears, if you're a drag racer, this might be a good idea. If you're looking for top speed, and longer gears, the TT rear differential is where it's at!

(Information from Broke as ****, thanks)

The TT rear end has 3.692 (The R230V differential) gears and the NA has 4.083 (The R200V).

You don't really have to swap the rear ends, the NA is just as stout as TT, just with a different ring gear. Both had VLSDs stock. All you need, I am told, to switch the rears is the differential and the speed sensor off an NA.

As a side note: I've never heard that the NA 5spd trans weren't as good as the TTs but the few NAs, all 5 spds, I've driven did have a sloppier feel to them where as my TTs felt very firm and solid so...I guess I'll check on that. However, there is only one code through out the entire line for the 5spd trans (RS5R30A) but there is two codes for the AT.

RE4R03A for the TT AT
RE4R01A for the NA AT

-The TT Radiator is skinnier to accomidate for the boost piping
-You need the boost piping, intercoolers, exhaust etc etc.

So as you can see... It's not EASY.

Ok, so scenario Number 2... Why not just bolt the Exhaust Manifolds and Turbos on.

Pertaining to this idea:

-VG30DETT's Compression Ratio is 8.5:1, to accomidate for boost, the VG30DE's (Non-Turbo) Compression Ratio is 10.5:1... If you try to boost the VG30DE on stock Twin Turbo Fuel/Timing Map, you're asking for trouble... This CAN be done with customized tuning, AEM EMS, S-AFC, etc. But the VG30DE isn't built to take boost, problems will occur eventually.

... Ok, scenario Number 3... Twin Turbo Front Clip from Japan.

Pertaining to this idea:

-This is most practical for the swap, you have everything you need, and it would be a lot easier than swapping internals, changing mounts, etc.
-It would be cheaper... Unless of course you are VERY mechanically inclined. But for the average bear, the clip would be best.

Prices are as follows (Respectively):

-Twin Turbo JDM Clip 5-Speed : $3,000
-Twin Turbo JDM Clip Automatic : $2,500

So as you can see... It would be MUCH easier to just buy a clip, and swap the entire powertrain in.
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Ok so if you have a question about the Twin Turbo swap... Post it here, there enough members on this forum who can answer the question, Broke as **** is a good one to ask.

Here is a good site to refer to.

Twin Turbo Conversion (http://ashleypowers.com/Na-TTConversion/natoturbo.htm)

Also, please look at the write up one of our members (k3smostwanted) did. You can view the link HERE (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=422781)

If you can think of anything to add, just let me know. Or if some of my information is incorrect, just let me know once again.

Thanks for reading.

-Wes

Gradyman25
09-07-2004, 09:30 AM
There is a place in Georgia that specializes in 90+ Z's. Most anyone with a Z in the Georgia area has heard of them they are Z1motorsports, they have a web page (http://www.z1motorsports.com/) and do swaps all the time, these guys know what they are doing, they have a write up on the swap and it is in great detail, plus, they do pretty much anything else you can think of for Z's. check out their site.

ZedEx
09-07-2004, 10:42 AM
Yes we all know about good old Z1... They do Twin Turbo swaps for 8grand I believe.

Thanks for the input.

-Wes

freakonaleash1187
09-07-2004, 08:54 PM
also, sgpracing in texas will do the swap for you too. if i remember right, their's is a little bit cheaper though.

igota20hpweedeater
09-08-2004, 11:50 PM
i know u guys will probably slap me for this one, but i have to just clarify......can i buy a tt front clip and be all set as far as the swap goes, i wont have to do anything else will I? And if i got the swap professionally done, how much would the labor be? Also, should i get the swap professionally done or can anyone who has done engine swaps before do it?

k3smostwanted
09-09-2004, 01:48 PM
ok...well...front clip will have everything you need except for driveshaft and exhaust. i dont know how much it will cost labor wise...but i do know that ultimatez and z1motorsports will do the whole thing for 8-10k. also, a good mechanic should be able to do the swap, it is just a matter of if he wants to take the project on.

240/350Z
09-09-2004, 03:38 PM
also just a side note when we swapped a TT into an NA we discovered u can use the na tranny but not with the turbo sized clutch and flywheel. there are these risen grooves inside the tranny that would have to be ground down a little bit to make that work. If i'm wrong let me know but that is what we discovered. and also if you have your na wiring harness from a later year 300 and you use an early 90's clip you will need to re-solder(sp?) new injector connectors.

ZedEx
09-09-2004, 08:02 PM
O the Non-Turbo Transmission will work... But not as well as the Twin Turbo Tranny.

Early EFI Harness's do tend to corrode quite badly. It is a good idea to re-condition the connectors, from time to time.

-Wes

MikeMan
09-10-2004, 04:45 AM
-This is most practical for the swap, you have everything you need, and it would be a lot easier than swapping internals, changing mounts, etc.


Are you sure you have to change engine mounts? I thought it was a straight bolt in job.
If I need to change engine mounts, this is going to be close to disasterous for me when I decide 220hp isn't enough. 8(

-Mike

ZedEx
09-10-2004, 09:27 AM
222bhp :D

No I'm speaking of mounting for accesories, not engine.

The engine mounts line directly up.

-Wes

MikeMan
09-11-2004, 04:51 AM
222bhp :D

No I'm speaking of mounting for accesories, not engine.

The engine mounts line directly up.

-Wes

Ahh cheers, you had me worried then. :)

-Mike

StreetSailor
09-15-2004, 05:27 AM
About the 300zx engines and tranny is there a way i can find out about how much they weigh together from the turbo and non turbo in comparison? (auto or manual)

bobinyelm
09-16-2004, 11:48 PM
Yes we all know about good old Z1... They do Twin Turbo swaps for 8grand I believe.

Thanks for the input.

-Wes
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Question:

Why pay $8K for a swap when one can buy a mint '90-92 TT with relatively low miles (85K or less) for well under $10K?

Am I missing something here, or doesn't it make sense to sell the 300ZX N.A. (for $6K) and buy a really nice 300ZX TT for $10K (or less)?

I bought my California '90 TT last year (82K miles) from a 58 year old original owner who babied it ($12K in receipts-treated it like one of his kids) and never drove it in bad weather for $7.5K, then did a timing belt (just to be sure), a driveline (slight vibration), and tires ($600). True, I now have almost $9K in the car, but it looks and runs like new without the hassles of a conversion. I don't think this is an abnormal situation-in fact maybe I could have found one even cheaper.

Bob

k3smostwanted
09-17-2004, 12:02 AM
this is true ...some people get attched to their car and they dont want to deal with someone elses headache. it is definitely alot more reasonable to sell the n/a then buy a TT than to pay someone 10k to swap motors.

freakonaleash1187
09-17-2004, 04:58 PM
man i wish i could find a tt with under 100k miles for under $10k. the only tt's that i see for under $10k are the ones with something wrong with them or have really high mileage.

k3smostwanted
09-17-2004, 08:49 PM
same here freak..i have seen one that had rust on the rear hatch and needed a new front bumper and a new paint job for 8,000 once.

bobinyelm
09-17-2004, 09:21 PM
same here freak..i have seen one that had rust on the rear hatch and needed a new front bumper and a new paint job for 8,000 once.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I should count myself very fortunate, then.

I did forget to mention that my Bose system is DOA, though. It is the only flaw in an otherwise pristine car. I bought N.A. speaker brackets and harness bypasses to mount a new deck in the car as I understand keeping teh Bose repaired is a losing proposition.

Bob

ZedEx
09-17-2004, 11:41 PM
Stay on the Swap topic guys... I dont know why they charge so much, Im in no way at all associated with them, so dont ask me.

-Wes

Zgringo
09-18-2004, 08:12 PM
If your going to go to all the trouble of swaping engines, why not install a VH45DE? If you use the VH45DE bellhousing it well bolt right up to the VG30DETT transmission. Now you have a engine 100lbs lighter, more HP and touque and it's NA. If you want to see what it can do go here.
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/may02/infinitiengine.php

Broke_as_****
09-18-2004, 08:37 PM
Itemized list of why not:

1. Because the TT is a direct drop in and parts for it both OEM and performance are everywhere.

2. Because even though I haven't researched this, I'm pretty damn sure TT engines are easier to find and cheaper than VH45s not to mention a lot easier to swap. Low cost and ease being two of the biggest draws to TT swapping.

3. Because with some simple bolt on mods that you can do while you swap, you can make alot of power with the TT engine. Enough to negate the higher initial output you get by swapping a VH45 and cheaper as well.

4. Because even the race prepped VH shown there was making a "mere" 450hp. I can get that out of a TT much easier. And to go beyond that with an NA requires either even more uber expensive engine work (like custom made cam profiles), nitrous (as in 1/4 mile or less) or turbo charging (requiring you to lower the 10.5:1 compression of the VH at a huge expense). Think of it this way, with both engines in stock trim the VH only makes another 40hp and 50 lbs of torque despite having 150% of the displacement the VG does not to mention ten more years of technology to draw from.

5. Because the only reason to do this swap is the unique factor for a show car or someone with way too much money for their own good.

6. Because this thread is about providing info for those looking to do the TT swap and why for the most part, its not a good idea. There is other threads about the merits of various other swaps.

ZedEx
09-18-2004, 11:18 PM
I agree with Broke on this one... VH45DE may be unique and all... But shit, lots of work. And you can boost up more power out of a VG30DETT.

-Wes

freakonaleash1187
09-19-2004, 12:13 PM
broke gave a really good list, but i have to add one thing:

7. the 300zx was made to have a vg, and that is what i (and many others) would plan to keep in there.

Zgringo
09-19-2004, 12:35 PM
Like you say, this thread is 'bout a TT swap but alot of NA owners and TT owners with blown engines or whatever do have other options.

1. Right, the TT is a direct dropin for a NA and parts, no problem. This would be my first choice.

2. Wrong, the VH45DE, VH41DE and VK45DE are used in most of the Infiniti cars plus in the Nissan trucks and SUV's. As for price, a Z32 TT clip runs around $2,500 to $3,800 whereas the VH45DE is around $850, being more available. Supply and demand crap.

3. Wrong, the cost of the clip plus the upgrades to match the performance of the VH45 would be:
VG30TT
a. $2,500 TT frontend clip
b. $1,200 good exhaust
c. $500 upgrade ECU
d. $200 POP intake
Total $4,400 give or take a few hundred

VH45DE
a. $850 VH45DE engine
b. $100 stock bellhousing from VH45 engine to VG30 transmission
c. $1,000 ECU and wireing harness for VH45
d. $300 4 row radiator
e. $500 for fab motor mounts and odds an ends
Total $2,750 give or take a few hundred

4. Wrong, the race prepped VH45 engine with a "mere" 450 HP only had a POP intake and headers with 3" exhaust, no cats. To go beyond, quite simple. Put a Eaton M112 supercharger with a 130 F Delta output temp @10 boost. and 650HP with a cost of $1,500. And we still haven't opened the engine yet.
What does it cost to make this much power from a VG30 engine.
And were forgetting that the VH45 is 100lbs. lighter than a VG30 engine. The Z32 is alittle on the heavy side.

5. Kinda right, it would be a unique swap, but engineering wise, the swap would make the car lighter with the ability to make more power if you chose to go that route. As for having to much money, they would save plus have a newer engineered engine still in production, and it is NISSAN.

6. You couldn't be more correct. This tread is 'bout swaping a TT and not a VH45. And I wouldn't suggest anyone doing a VH45 swap unless they had the knowledge and ability to do it.

As for myself I want both, I'm not greedy, I just love the Z's. My intention wasn't to muddy the waters, but to add another choice. Life is all a matter of choices, some good and some not so.

See you at the finish line.

Broke_as_****
09-19-2004, 05:50 PM
1. Right, the TT is a direct dropin for a NA and parts, no problem. This would be my first choice.

Because it makes alot more sense.

2. Wrong, the VH45DE, VH41DE and VK45DE are used in most of the Infiniti cars plus in the Nissan trucks and SUV's. As for price, a Z32 TT clip runs around $2,500 to $3,800 whereas the VH45DE is around $850, being more available. Supply and demand crap.

I don't know where you are getting your Z32 TT clips from but you are getting ripped off. Importers can get them for less than $1500. And I doubt anyone is going to sell you a clean low mileage front end off a late model Q45 for less than that.

3. Wrong, the cost of the clip plus the upgrades to match the performance of the VH45 would be:
VG30TT
a. $2,500 TT frontend clip
b. $1,200 good exhaust
c. $500 upgrade ECU
d. $200 POP intake
Total $4,400 give or take a few hundred

Again, I don't know where you are getting your parts but you are getting ripped off. Check out z1motorsports.com, and their basic power package to get you to a stage 3 Z32 TT. $1100 bucks shipped. Plus the cost of the clip that we didn't get ripped off on and you got a hell of alot less then you are quoting here.

VH45DE
a. $1500 VH45DE engine
b. $100 stock bellhousing from VH45 engine to VG30 transmission
c. $1,000 ECU and wireing harness for VH45
d. $300 4 row radiator
e. $1000 for fab motor mounts and odds an ends
f. $1500 for labor on the swap
Total $5,300 give or take a few hundred

So in this case we'll add a bit to make your numbers more realistic and keeping in mind that while the TT swap is fairly easy as swaps go because the engine was designed to be in the car, 96.34% of people will have to source an outside shop to swap the VH, and we are over double the VGs number and the VG is a turbo and thus can be made to make more power alot easier. Because this is not a car the VH was meant to be in you'll have to fab your own exhaust and thats not too bad however, I think the tuning world is still waiting on the fab your own headers at home kit. Not to mention you have to get another 1300 rpms out of the VH to make that 450hp.

4. Wrong, the race prepped VH45 engine with a "mere" 450 HP only had a POP intake and headers with 3" exhaust, no cats. To go beyond, quite simple. Put a Eaton M112 supercharger with a 130 F Delta output temp @10 boost. and 650HP with a cost of $1,500. And we still haven't opened the engine yet.
What does it cost to make this much power from a VG30 engine.
And were forgetting that the VH45 is 100lbs. lighter than a VG30 engine. The Z32 is alittle on the heavy side.

And I would really like to see you run that 10psi of boost on 10.5:1 compression for more than a half hour, VH factory forged bits not withstanding. That and I dont' see how you are going to be able to make a custom set of headers for the VH in the Z32 and custom 3" exhaust plus all the supercharging work for 1500. So with the supercharger ruled out and a full exhaust system and intake done you got what you can do with a NA engine? Underdrive pulley? Changing the oil? And you are already far past the VG in price without anywhere really left to go.

5. Kinda right, it would be a unique swap, but engineering wise, the swap would make the car lighter with the ability to make more power if you chose to go that route. As for having to much money, they would save plus have a newer engineered engine still in production, and it is NISSAN.

They wouldn't save, and dropping this much cash to cut 100 pounds on a car that is over 3000lbs is somewhat of a drop in the bucket. Yeah you would see an improvement, just as you would if you spent all this money on other things.

6. You couldn't be more correct. This tread is 'bout swaping a TT and not a VH45. And I wouldn't suggest anyone doing a VH45 swap unless they had the knowledge and ability to do it.

Which rules out 96.34% of the human race and just about everyone here. And if you can do all this by yourself then I direct you here (http://ashleypowers.com/Na-TTConversion/natoturbo.htm)

As for myself I want both, I'm not greedy, I just love the Z's. My intention wasn't to muddy the waters, but to add another choice. Life is all a matter of choices, some good and some not so.

Like a VH swap for example.

See you at the finish line.

Yep, hope you like my stock USDM tail lights.

ZedEx
09-19-2004, 06:27 PM
Ahh... Here it comes... Hes flying in... Its the 'ownage bird'... Hes here to tell you, that you have just been OWNED.

-Wes

freakonaleash1187
09-19-2004, 09:55 PM
:owned:

MikeMan
09-20-2004, 02:17 AM
I'm with Zgringo on this one guys. Its not the best idea for Z newbies, but for someone with the know how (or the cash) its probably a better idea than a TT swap. Also, apologies in advance for the huge post. :)

Because it makes alot more sense.
In what sense of the word sense? :)
People have called me crazy (and probably still do) for my VG30DE swap, but I now have an engine that (when I've thrown a few more thousand at it) will kill 96.34% of VG30ETs out there.

The one thing that most car enthusiasts don't consider is the torque (and hence power) curve. Everyone I speak to just looks at peak torque (and power) output. The real judge of an engine's performance is the area under that curve. A flatter curve means more area. I would prefer to have a very flat power curve peaking at 300hp than a very steep curve peaking at 400hp. Fuck the bragging rights, this is my real personal opinion.

This is of course entirely subjective (as I have stated its my own personal desire), so if anyone wants to argue with me over this, get fucked.

As for whether or not a custom swap is worth the money, that again is entirely subjective.



I don't know where you are getting your Z32 TT clips from but you are getting ripped off. Importers can get them for less than $1500. And I doubt anyone is going to sell you a clean low mileage front end off a late model Q45 for less than that.


Yeah real objective here. Comparing the importer's cost on a Z32 clip (which is obviously going to be substantially less than what the consumer would get it for) to the consumer cost on a 'low milage' 'late model' Q45 clip (which is probably going to be the most expensive option for the swap). What are you doing wasting your time on these message boards? You should be in politics.

All things being even, you should be comparing the average consumer cost on a 'low milage' z32 clip, with the consumer cost on a 'low milage' 1990-1996 Q45 (seeing as the 'late model' Q45 has the VK45DE). Not to mention other Nissan and Infiniti cars also have the VH45DE, which you may get a clip for cheaper.

Not having ever been to the united states, I would not have a fucking clue as to what price they both go for over there, so I am not going to comment on the 'revised' costs to the consumer.



Again, I don't know where you are getting your parts but you are getting ripped off. Check out z1motorsports.com, and their basic power package to get you to a stage 3 Z32 TT. $1100 bucks shipped. Plus the cost of the clip that we didn't get ripped off on and you got a hell of alot less then you are quoting here.

Ok, going off the consumer cost of the clip which I'd say starting price of $1500 (and I doubt that that engine would be producing the 300hp it was born with) and adding on that $1100 for the package, we still haven't made the $4400 Zgringo was estimating. However, considering we are talking about a newbie installing these, we also have to consider the labour costs of installing the TT engine (which Zgringo forgot about). Getting closer.
Now even if we take the highest hp figure quoted on z1motorsports (which is no doubt going to be at least be slightly inflated to increase sales) of 350rwhp, taking into account a 20% drivetrain loss, we're looking at around 437hp. Not only do I call bullshit on this one, but we're still less than that 450hp we were aiming for yeah?



So in this case we'll add a bit to make your numbers more realistic and keeping in mind that while the TT swap is fairly easy as swaps go because the engine was designed to be in the car, 96.34% of people will have to source an outside shop to swap the VH, and we are over double the VGs number and the VG is a turbo and thus can be made to make more power alot easier. Because this is not a car the VH was meant to be in you'll have to fab your own exhaust and thats not too bad however, I think the tuning world is still waiting on the fab your own headers at home kit. Not to mention you have to get another 1300 rpms out of the VH to make that 450hp.

I miss your logic here. the VG30DETT is indeed a turbo, but when we're at the limit of the injectors and street fuel, I fail to see how its easier to make more power. We're going to have to start changing the pistons to lower compression if we want to increase the boost but keep running street fuel, which is what we're going to have to do to the VH45DE to make it turbo/supercharged anyway.

My exhaust fabrication cost me $2000 AUD (probably about $1500 USD) and it was apparently the hardest headers the exhaust place has ever had to make. Now, considering that they are tuned-length headers (the single most effective power gain for a naturally aspirated car apart from turbos or nitrous) we've also scored about 20-50 more ponies for the VH45DE (depending on other factors like cam overlap, the design of the headers etc.). I doubt the headers would have been as hard to make as my set either, considering the VH45DE and the VG30DETT would have around the same width (and hence roughly the same engine bay clearance.)

Even if we had to change the rev limiter (or remove it) I again fail to see your point. I really doubt that we're going to get any substantial valve float 1300rpm more than stock. Even if we do, we'd change the valve springs (and of course while we're there, get some more aggressive cams. You cant argue with your own reasoning. :))



And I would really like to see you run that 10psi of boost on 10.5:1 compression for more than a half hour, VH factory forged bits not withstanding. That and I dont' see how you are going to be able to make a custom set of headers for the VH in the Z32 and custom 3" exhaust plus all the supercharging work for 1500. So with the supercharger ruled out and a full exhaust system and intake done you got what you can do with a NA engine? Underdrive pulley? Changing the oil? And you are already far past the VG in price without anywhere really left to go.


You have a point here. If we wanted to supercharge it, we're looking at either race fuel (or beyond) or changing the pistons. A decomp plate would probably work just as well though, and cost us quite a bit less. Regardless, we're going to have to change the VG30DETT's pistons or whatnot if we want to run more than 15psi at stock TT compression anyway.



They wouldn't save, and dropping this much cash to cut 100 pounds on a car that is over 3000lbs is somewhat of a drop in the bucket. Yeah you would see an improvement, just as you would if you spent all this money on other things.


As I've pointed out, its probably not as much money as you claim. Regardless, if may cost a bit more but overall its probably going to give a much better torque curve, with more room for performance mods later.

After you've changed the pistons, if you had a VH45DETT and a VG30DETT next to each other, exactly the same mods on each, the VH is obviously going to decimate the VG30DETT. A little bit more initial outlay, and you've got yourself a more efficient engine and a better base horsepower to start building on. This was my reasoning on the VG30DE swap in my Z31 and I still stand by it.


Which rules out 96.34% of the human race and just about everyone here. And if you can do all this by yourself then I direct you here (http://ashleypowers.com/Na-TTConversion/natoturbo.htm)


Thats fair enough. Its just another option to consider. He isn't telling everyone to go out and do it, he's just saying 'hey, heres an idea, you can decide if you want to do it or not.'


Like a VH swap for example.


Financially, even a TT swap is a stupid idea when you can trade in a NA for TT for less money. Some things are more important than money though. :)

Yep, hope you like my stock USDM tail lights.

My stock Z31 taillights look better as I'm sure lltz will agree. :)

Don't take this as a flame, I'm just not going to stand by while people try and put Zgringo down for what I consider a reasonable idea for at least a few enthusiasts out there.

Cheers,
-Mike

Broke_as_****
09-20-2004, 04:34 AM
Alright this is getting ridiculously huge so I'll summarize:

The whole idea behind this thread and what I've been saying from the begining is that its a damnsite easier and usually cheaper for most people just to buy a TT car in the first place. However, there was some references listed incase the given person was just too attached to their car, wanted to do the work for the work itself or what have you. Now, as swaps go, putting a TT in a NA car is fairly straight forward and simple. The car was designed for the engine, there is plenty of parts around that can be picked up cheap and most importantly, there is a factory book pertaining to a TT motor in a Z32 and there is plenty of people who have done this one. Thus even someone with only limited wrenching skills and tools could probably stick a TT motor in their NA themselves given that they aren't dumbasses about it.

Then the option: The VH swap. To clear the air: I think the VH and VK are both great motors. However, going this route requires either plenty of in the way of labor fees due to the custom nature of this swap or a good deal of knowledge and experience with both the Z32 and VH and quite a bit of access to tools and machines for custom making pieces as needed. Anyway you cut it, the VH swap is going to be more difficult then a TT swap and almost certainly out of the range of anyone looking for the cheap easy way to get a more powerful motor into their NA Z32. That was the whole point from the get go. And the second point drawn from that was that if you are to the point where you can pull the VG and upgrade X and Y or you can fab enough stuff to splice a VH into a Z32, then you can pretty much do whatever you want and thus comes down to preference. Same with getting to lowering compression, rebuilding engines and everything else, you've already past any semblance of a tuned street motor and once you get past that its all preference. Someone wants to swap in X motor with Z, Y and R mods, thats fine, grab a chest of gold and go at it. Once you go there, practicality has lost meaning and so is kind of lost on the people looking for a cheap, easy way to get a badderass Z32.

And in the end I come back to my original point: Just a buy a damn TT, they make them so you don't have to.

And don't ever implicate me in politics again or else I"ll burn your barn down and pawn your ederly.

MikeMan
09-20-2004, 08:34 AM
And in the end I come back to my original point: Just a buy a damn TT, they make them so you don't have to.

Yeah, I'll drink to that.

And don't ever implicate me in politics again or else I"ll burn your barn down and pawn your ederly.

DON'T YOU TOUCH THAT GODDAMNED BARN! I mean, erm, I don't have one...

Seriously though, I think we were all kinda making the same points here. Financially, swapping a NA car with a TT car is the best option.
Creatively, swapping in an exotic engine in a car that it was never designed for is the best.
Doing a NA/TT engine swap I guess lies somewhere inbetween, without the benefits of either.

If you want to do an engine swap...
Zgringo: '... swap in the best, most advanced engine that your budget allows'
MikeMan: '... swap in something that hasn't been done before, just to confuse people who look under the hood'
Broke: '... go count your pennies, because its not going to be the cheapest or easiest option.'
Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'

:P

-Mike

RX_speed
09-21-2004, 02:43 AM
If you want to do an engine swap...
Zgringo: '... swap in the best, most advanced engine that your budget allows'
MikeMan: '... swap in something that hasn't been done before, just to confuse people who look under the hood'
Broke: '... go count your pennies, because its not going to be the cheapest or easiest option.'
Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'


haha! that was great :lol:

ZedEx
09-21-2004, 10:01 AM
Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'

-Mike

Ha... Ha... Gee, your a funny little fuckstick arent you?

Keep talking shit bro, I'll can your ass.

-Wes

MikeMan
09-21-2004, 05:57 PM
Ha... Ha... Gee, your a funny little fuckstick arent you?
For that instance of the word, I believe it's spelt "you're". :)


Keep talking shit bro, I'll can your ass.

-Wes

Are you.. coming on to me?
/me pulls his skirt up a little, showing a bit more leg

-Mike

Zgringo
09-21-2004, 06:01 PM
You guys are great,but you can't burn a old fart like me, and if burn down my barn, and pawn my elderly, I'll paint your car green and hide it in the grass and you'll never find it.
I was not telling anyone doing a VH swap was better than changing you VG30DETT. Presonally I think is't best to sell your NA and buy a TT.
I have 3 Z32's. 2 with VG30 engines and I'm not going into details on them but a 3rd I got with a blown engine. Being a old drag racer from before any of you were born, and already having 2 Z32's I desided to do something different. After lots of research desided on the VH45DE cause it was lighter than a VG engine and using the VH bellhousing well bolt up to the Z32 transmission, leaving only to fab the motor mounts and exhaust.
Now if any of you went to the National Hotrod Museum and look up the "Glass Slipper" you'll see I'm not a 4th rank amateur, 3rd but not 4th. Being I have the ability and knowledge to do all the work myself and all the time in the world, and God welling, I don't die before I complete my projects, I'll give you a break down of what it's cost me to date:

VH45DE engine $450

VH45DE bellhousing $100

4 core radator $300

Fab motor mounts $000 made them myself ,,very simple

mport Performance Transmission w/ 3,500 stall torque converter. Already had it and was planning putting it one of the other Z's but changed my mind.

VH45DE wiring harness and computer $200

2 condenser coils for A/C $400

Tubing 3" SS for exhaust $180

SS plate maching work and tubing for headers $330

Total cash out of pocket $1,960

Now this isnt counting electric power to run the welder and wire ties, and other odds and ends.

Bottom line is I'm starting with a engine which a very flat torque and more power than a VG engine. In the Q45 with tall gears does 0-60 5.7 sec 4,085lb car. In the Z32 with 4.08 gears and 900lbs lighter, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out it well be quicker.
And thats stock. As for building it up to blow the doors off Vett's and such, it will cost about the same as building up a VG engine. JWT is real proud of cost of their parts. In talking to Ed Pink, who builds the Infiniti 35A engines which is the same basic engine as the VH45DE, he has put me onto the people to get parts from. Cams, Web Cams, ,bout same price as JWT cams. Pistons, Aries, "bout same price as Ford and Chevy V8's. Crank and rods are better than aftermarket but need ARP bolts. The heads well need to be ported, but the valves are titinum so no need to change them. Nitrous, have many different kits already. Supercharger, most likely use a Eaton M112 cause to upgrade all I have to do is change pulley diameters.
So far everyone who has seen the engine in the car don't know the difference. It's been in and out 3 different times fitting mounts and hedders. They think it's stock, cause they don't know Z's. As for having the baddest Z on the block, I don't race Z's, just the wanna be's. But it you challange me I just might take you up on it, for trying to burn me, you didn't get up early enough.
I see this site as a place to learn, not burn people with different ideas. A place to seek help when needed, and not to be criticize for asking. The automobile wouldn't be where it is today if someone had'nt dared to be different.
When I started racing we had to build everything. Their wasn't a JWT or Isky. Drag slicks weren't even invented yet.
Remember one thing, You can't beat cubic inches, or teach a old dog new tricks.
See ya at the finish line.

freakonaleash1187
09-21-2004, 08:21 PM
do it samhain, ban mike for a week. i would if he acted that way to me.

MikeMan
09-21-2004, 10:47 PM
do it samhain, ban mike for a week. i would if he acted that way to me.

YOU'RE COMING ON TO ME TOO!?!?

Must be this new aftershave I bought...

As a side note, we're quite far off topic lets drop this thread...

-Mike

ZedEx
09-22-2004, 10:03 AM
Mike, this isnt the first time youve ever tried to burn members... Im consulting the other mods on whether you should be banned, permenently, or temporarily.

But rule of thumb, if you insult a moderator, or administrator, you will be banned.

So we will see by tonight.

-Wes

RX_speed
09-22-2004, 02:40 PM
Are you mad about this:
"Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'"

i thought it was just a joke

MikeMan
09-22-2004, 06:28 PM
So did I...
:(

-Mike

ZedEx
09-22-2004, 08:52 PM
Im not one to lose my head... But I cant stand it when people talk shit about me trying to help some other enthusiasts out.

So Mike... Apperently it was a joke... I was under the assumption you were trying to down members of this forum... We'll let it go. I dont feel like losing my 'ban virginity' on you anyways.

Im sorry for over reacting... Back on topic.

-Wes

DBSS_Gohan
09-22-2004, 09:03 PM
We will now hear from the Senetor of Alabama. Hello yall.

Hi, Ok, my question is relating to a Z31s engine, N/A engine, and so I have higher compression pistons right? well what Iv I swapped them out and did motor work (Forge parts, yadda yadda, Maybe Stroke and bore, but probbly not, get head work done, deffinetly.) while I was at it to give lower compression to push more boost? cause as I understand it, you can run very small ammounts of boost on the higher compression engines? So I was thinking, what If I supercharged it to...5 PSI? Or 8 PSI?

Admittingly... for only that ammount of boost, I could probably just take my 215 MPH leaf blower, and stick it on my intake, and wire it up to my battery with an on off switch.... Hey, Since I brought it up, would that work? I was fiddling with a Leaf blower idea waaay back when I was working on my Mr2, and Then I found out they actualy sell electric turbochargers or somthing on ebay a few months later. I thought about building a glass box, and pushing all the air into a cone filter... (My intake was in the trunk.) But will the electric turbos/supers provide any noticeable increase in power on a car like the Z31? Isent it better just to work on a good ram air system?

DeleriousZ
09-22-2004, 09:59 PM
alright, just to set you straight right now, those electric superchargers you see on ebay are absolutely 100% useless, most likely they will decrease performance rather than increase... i had a site that had stuff on it but i can't remember it now... most likely you will want to swap your engine to one that's already turbocharged, it will save you quite a bit of trouble.. it'd be even less trouble to just buy a turbocharged Z and go from there. the stock boost for a z31t is 4-5 psi... why the engineers did that, i'm not exactly sure, but you can buy a decent boost controller and up the boost to 8-10 psi... better yet, read the turbo faq on www.z31.com (http://www.z31.com/)
as for building a good ram air system, it doesn't get much better than the stock position, just install a nice 9" cone filter in there and put a pipe in place of the intake resonator for a better intake sound.. if you really wanted to get hardcore, you could probably send your hood in to get louvered or put some sort of mini scoop on there to allow more air to get at the filter... of course then you're dealing with the chance of water entering the filter... hydrolock would most likely never be a problem but you never know... time for me to stop rambling...

Broke_as_****
09-22-2004, 10:16 PM
Yes you can run limited PSI with high compression. Take the tubo kits for the 350Z for example, they are designed for the stock pistons and only run about 5-6.5 psi of boost. Now of course in my mind using 530BB turbos or TD05 turbos to run 5 psi of boost is like bringing a tactical nuclear warhead to a knife fight. But thats me. Anyway, as even small amounts of boost will give a very noticable increase in performance, if you want to push 5 psi on your stock pistons, that will work.

However, if you are going to do all the damn work to get a turbo in the car, you're probably going to want to run big boost. In which case you will need to rebuild your engine with lower compression pistons. This may be the way to go if you are looking at rebuilding an engine anyway due to high miles. My advice is just find a decent turbo engine and swap that in. Or go crazy and build a liquid hydrogen powered rotary/piston/turbine hybrid warp drive.

Regarding electric turbos: They just don't cut it. The thing with your standard exhaust turbine turbo is that they spin fast. Really really really fast. 100,000 rpm fast. Thats what it takes to make boost. Electric turbos just don't have the power or the seal around intake piping to make it worth while. The bottom line is that just about all electric turbos are really doing really good if they manage to break even pressure wise. I really can't see how its worth it.

ZedEx
09-23-2004, 09:35 AM
Broke, I thought that the stock Turbos on the VG30DETT spool at 70,000RPM?

Anyways... Electronic Forced Induction is retarded... It never works, and it doesnt ad shit for power... Waste of money.

-Wes

DBSS_Gohan
09-23-2004, 07:35 PM
Ok Electric turbos are bad. We all agree there. But.... What about my leaf blower Idea? Would anyone think that was too stupid? If you could make a good seal, and Actualy push a lot of air? What if you put a lot of amperage to a leaf blower? Im more asking about custom setup, do you think it would be possible to electronicaly, rather than turbine or pully setup push forced induction into the engine to give a good ammount of PSI?

Broke_as_****
09-23-2004, 08:48 PM
They do Sam, I'm talking more like at full boost. About 70k is norm spooling point for turbos. And when 70,000 ****ing rpms is normal you know you got some really evil **** happening.

Anyway, its not so much a matter of pushing air. Its a matter of pushing air into a confined space. It feels like you can push alot of air with your lungs, blow out and it feels like a good amount of air flow. A little plastic straw will burst with only a few psi in it yet no matter how hard you blow you'll never get it to split open. This is the same with engines. Trying to push air with an electric turbo or even the leaf blower and they just can't make any power because once the pressure does start building it begins to push back against the fan. And the fan can't push back hard enough so it begins to stall after you get to the point where the engine isn't sucking or maybe you're making like 1 psi or so. This is why compressor outlets on exhaust turbine turbos are tiny, one because the fan is tiny but two because it allows very little space for all that pressure (15 psi is the difference between sea level and space. Dive under water about 15-20 feet and feel the pressure trying to collapse your lungs, and thats only like 4-5 psi there. Or something like that, my numbers may not be dead on, more like pulled out of the back of my head). to flow backwards.

DBSS_Gohan
09-23-2004, 10:57 PM
Ok broke, Ty, I now understand why there mostly useless... however... I have 2 more questions..... Just to keep the discussion up and further my knowledge... Cause Im curious! I cant help it! Ok...

Ok so the engine pushes the air back, that explains a lot, so What if you had some sort of vent valve to take out the excess air? Or redirect it? Is there no way to get a electric motor to spin as fast as somthing mechanical? I mean, yeah, I cant honestly think of anything electronic that spins as fast as somthing mechanical... But..... Hmmm.... Anyway, so is there anyway to redirect the push back air?

Broke_as_****
09-23-2004, 11:07 PM
No because that air being pushed back is the air you're trying to pressurize. If you start letting that out, it would be like opening a wastegate while you're still trying to spool a turbo.

Zgringo
09-23-2004, 11:17 PM
It takes power to make air pressure. Doesn't matter if it's super or turbo, it takes power. Their's only one electric supercharger I know of that even works but you have to have a battery so big it almosts defeats the the installation. IT TAKES POWER TO COMPRESS AIR. To see it go here:

http://www.boosthead.com/home.php

DBSS_Gohan
09-24-2004, 04:45 PM
Electronic nos! I love the idea! lol. But after discussing this... I think, Im gonna try to run a strong N/A engine for a while, then, maybe Ill go one small turbo setup to push low boost, But Im probably gonna keep an N/A engine for a long time.

1viadrft
09-24-2004, 04:53 PM
But after discussing this... I think, Im gonna try to run a strong N/A engine for a while... But Im probably gonna keep an N/A engine for a long time.

Let us talk my young padawan learner...

DBSS_Gohan
09-24-2004, 07:16 PM
What do you mean padawan learner? You think I should be pushing boost so soon? Iv had one turbo car, and It exploded 8 miles from where I bought it, Im in no hurry to blow a car I like so much up.

k3smostwanted
09-25-2004, 01:15 AM
can anybody say RB20det swap??? 200ZR has a ring to it. sorry off topic. my bad.

igota20hpweedeater
09-27-2004, 11:47 PM
i know u guys have answered this and said that labor for the tt swap is a lot, but why is that? If one bought a 300zx tt front clip wouldnt the install be a straight forward job? I know that it is time consuming but does it merit charging 6k in labor cost? why is it that other swaps are so much less than our swaps?

1viadrft
09-29-2004, 04:47 PM
What do you mean padawan learner? You think I should be pushing boost so soon? Iv had one turbo car, and It exploded 8 miles from where I bought it, Im in no hurry to blow a car I like so much up.

I was refferring to your plans of building up your NA... BOOST envy is for BOZOS!

Broke_as_****
09-29-2004, 08:14 PM
I was refferring to your plans of building up your NA... BOOST envy is for BOZOS!

/\ Boost envy denial

1viadrft
09-29-2004, 08:44 PM
shaddup!

freakonaleash1187
09-29-2004, 09:34 PM
i admit it, i am boost envy.

-Jared

DeleriousZ
09-29-2004, 10:52 PM
me too me too... i just want to be able to say... but then the twin, turbo's, kick, in :D:D

nateomonk
09-30-2004, 03:37 AM
ok so basically what i need to do the swap myself.... is the TT front clip.... As well as a tranny exhaust and rear end?..... or is the tranny included in the Clip....

So im looking at.... 3,000 ---for the clip
1,000 ---maybe more for the rear end
500 -----Exhaust
so 4,500 plus other things ....
and i paid 2,000 For my N/a 92 ......
so 6,500 for a TT 300z isnt sounding too bad right now .... .
if theres anything else i need plz let me know

Broke_as_****
09-30-2004, 04:09 AM
ok so basically what i need to do the swap myself.... is the TT front clip.... As well as a tranny exhaust and rear end?..... or is the tranny included in the Clip....

So im looking at.... 3,000 ---for the clip
1,000 ---maybe more for the rear end
500 -----Exhaust
so 4,500 plus other things ....
and i paid 2,000 For my N/a 92 ......
so 6,500 for a TT 300z isnt sounding too bad right now .... .
if theres anything else i need plz let me know

The TT front clip will get you there. Some clips come with transmissions, others don't. However, I've never heard the NAs 5spd was watered down strength wise so you should be good to go on that. If your really worried and you clip doesn't come with a transmission you can probably pick one up for a couple hundred dollars.

You don't really need a TT rear end, the only real difference is the gearing (TT is taller). And you can find used TT rear ends for $250 or less if you really want one. Check wholesale wharehouses and wrecking yards.

Exhaust only really comes into play if you have a 2+2 NA because the chassis was 6 inches longer and there were no US 2+2 turbos thus no pipes for them. Even then its just a matter of sourcing the correct pipes for the job and really while your swapping the TT motor you can just get some aftermarket down pipes and test pipes (you can get them with high flow cats welded in) and have a much better exhaust system that fits perfect. You can pretty much find whatever you need pre-made ready to order. And even if you can't find the exact combination you need, a good shop can make up a few feet of pipe for cheap. Really, its just a pipe with a few bends in it with some flanges on each end. If you have a 2 seater NA and don't want to drop money on downpipes and such right now then it would just be a matter of finding a stock TT forward exhaust piece and a wrecking yard should be able to get that for fairly cheap.

What do you have available too you and how comfortable are you at taking expensive complicated things apart? This is not a weekend job by any means so you'll need a garage or somewhere you can keep alot of parts lying around not to mention the car and the clip. If you have some engine experience you can do this yourself provided you grab a Factory Service Manual and read up alot on what you're trying to do. Take it slow, do it right and be very happy with the results.

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