Hey, i am sick and tired and pulling up next to a civic ex, even a dx sometimes and loosing. I know that the 5sfe, is a commuters engine, but i was wondering, what can i do to get more HP to the wheels? I am thinking of selling my car because of this, but i already added allot of aftermarket to the exterior of the car, but no engine mod. Please some one help me out. I don't want to spend more then 2 g's, oh and my car is automatic unfortunetly. What should i do???

Check out my car at this site, and tell me what u think???
http://www.onlineshowoff.com/index.asp?section=profile&username=iggy174

If you want to go fast on 2k I would say get a new car.

You did the car up well on the outside but you need something like a 3S-GTE to go with it.

see my post about the good and bad of 3sgte and 5sfe

hey, I got the same car but gt not gt-s, get a shift kit, mines standard and its not slow.

yeah stick with the 5sfe, just put headers exhaust and intake, then change ur ignition....its a good start and youll kill any not heavily modded honda ( except shit like s2000 smart asses)

I fail to understand why people go and drop 2k on the exterior of their car to make it look faster before it is acutally faster. Maybe it is just me but I prefer to be a sleeper. I mean whats the point of having 160 hp and having all the cops looking at you when you can have 250 and be ignored.

tru, but still i like having a fast show car, where i can take it to shows and win money

excellent point, sooo tru!

whats the point of having a 12.5 car and having it look stock on the outside, yeah if some fag gets next to you thinkin ur cars a hooptie and you beat him.....youd still beat him even if your car looked savage

too much time and money on the exterior+ f*ck that get a 3sgte engine swap! :bigthumb:

well its all balance and priorities... different people value different things... i kno a guy whos friend died street racing... he has completely lost interest in speed and is only doing visual mods to his car... if the cops follow u arround, then dont speed... if u only care about funtionality, then hell, get a fast car that might look like crap... no one cares if u think only visial mods are stupid... keep posts like that to urself...

anyways, ontopic

200whp is a pretty hard goal to reach with a 5sfe though u dont need that much to beat a civic... if ur determined to get that much hp ur pretty much stuck with swapping the 3sgte head onto the 5sfe and adding a turbo or doing a complete 3sgte swap... the 3sgte swap would be the easier and more likely choice... swapping a 3sgte head on and adding the turbo, plus renforcing the engine due to the lack in wall size (since it will be 2.2L) is a lot of work and will probably take more time than just swapping a 3sgte... from there u start with at least 200hp and some bolt ons should get u to your goal... gl with whatever u chose to do though

Thanks everyone for the tips on how to get 200WHP, but in conclusion i think i have finally made a decision. The 5SFE is an engine that was not ment for any performance modification. Spending time and money on this engine is practically pointless, because of the fact that this engine was designed for economy. So i have made my decision, seing that my car is automatic, and i don't have allot of money to spend, i believe i am going to mount a 3sgte into a 4spd v6 camry transmition. I am not sure, or correct me if im wrong, but the v6 camry transmition will be able to handle the extra power the 3sgte gives out. I am not worried about the cost of all this because, i can get a 3sgte for $700, the transmition for like $400-$600 and i can get all that installed for under $1000. SO anyways thank you for all the advice, but i think the 3sgte is the way to go if you want to keep it cheap and if you want the power your looking for. And if all else fails im probably just gonna sell my car, and buy a brand new 2005 corolla XRS or any celica gts (6spd) from 2000-2004

I fail to understand why people go and drop 2k on the exterior of their car to make it look faster before it is acutally faster. Maybe it is just me but I prefer to be a sleeper. I mean whats the point of having 160 hp and having all the cops looking at you when you can have 250 and be ignored.

:ylsuper: Can I get an amen? :worshippy

ha if you think tahts all the swap will cost you think again....you gotta buy a complete wiering harness along with hella otehr sensors and get the uce changed,as well as if you use the camry v6 tranny you have to custom forge new half shafts because the camry ones are hella longer

I live in the city of Los Angeles i know allot of backyard mechanics that can do the job for a low price. My friend did that with his eclipse RS he swapet the engine, and droped in the turbo engine, all for like $700, so don't worry about the cost, because i got my connections

n btw just to let you know ive seen 5sfe engines w over 450 HP

yeah im sure it is not even considered a 5sfe, im preaty sure like 5sgte or something, and then imagine all the money spent to get all that power, thats rediculous. Lets keep the subject going, im talking about an engine swap 5sfe to 3sgte, or some basic bolt on mods (to 5sfe) to get the 200hp to the wheels i am looking for

u can get a 200hp N/A outta ur 5sfe no prob, even if u wanted to boost you can boost it to 10 psi no prob

there is only one turbo kit that i kno of that is made for the 5sfe and it gives u something like 190bhp not at the wheels and its something like $2,500 a little steap for me and only 50hp?

yes a 5sfe can be turbocharged but if u ask most people they will say that its not smart... there is a reason the displacement was decreased for the turbo model... ur basically stuck with the option of swapping the 3sgte head and reinforcing the engine so it doesnt blow up on u... it pretty much becomes a pain in the a$$...

or you could just not boost more tahn 15 psi with some internals and still build ur block and end up with 300 hp......its more cost effective to keep ur 5sfe, unless ur wanting to put more than 10K into ur motor or want 300+ Hp

how are u gonna get 500hp with under 15psi? please explain... on paper turboing the 5sfe seems like a good idea... in real life, its not

the 3sgte transmition is also better geared for turboes and the redline is moved to 7200rpms

unfortunately, the 3sgte tranny is awd, which would require some SERIOUS modification (like a driveshaft, to start). As for modding the 5sfe, don't. I've talked to several toyota people about the same issue (I have a '90 gt) and they all said to go for the swap, because any mods to the 5sfe are fighting against what the engine was designed for, namely fuel economy and low-end torque.

Do yourself a huge favour and grab a 3sgte. You can get one with tranny on ebay for like $1100, without for about $700.

wow i dont think any of you understnad the hardship you will go through if you try and d o the swap....there is absolutly no point in doing it if your not wishing something like 400+ horses

im gunna post this articel to help you understand the necessities inthe swap...courtesy of toyotacleicaonline.com

BlkRx7 from the messageboard figures the cost will run in the neighborhood of $5000. The reasoning is as follows:


Equipment: Engine, LHD wiring harness (extremely rare...RHD Celicas have the wiring enter on the other side of the firewall) and ECU
approximate cost: $2000.00US

Labor: Expect around 20 hours minimum for the mechanical part of the swap. 20 hours at an hourly rate of say $50.00/hour...
approximate cost: $1000

Custom parts/equipment: stock exhaust wont bolt up to the 3S engine, so you will need a custom exhaust which accomadates the new engine ($500-1000). You will need a clutch which can handle the extra power. 3SGTE plate with a 5SFE disc ($500).
approximate cost: $1000-1500

Transmission/Motor mounts: simplifying for this estimate we will assume for now that the transmission used is from a 5S-FE (no cost). The engine mounts to the same mounts as the 5SFE...so again assuming no cost. Not of course that using a V6 Camry or MR2 tranny opens up a whole new set of costs. as well as hoping your 5sfe will live more than a year....because it wont under all the strain the 3sgte puts on it
approximate cost: $0-up

Misc. Parts:You're going to need to get a hold of a Celica 4wd Turbo sensor pack (If it didn't come with the motor). Turbo Pressure sensor, AFM, fuel pump resistor packs, ick, more sensors than I can possibly name. This is where things get sticky, you're going to need to source a LOT of spare parts, and depending on where you get them from I think a reasonable margin for error, and price in maybe $500 of electrical parts? Including wiring, connectors, sensors, ect. ect. ect.. You will also want to replace the water pump and timing belt (est. $150 with labor?)while the engine is out of the car.
approximately: $650

Thus we come to a grand total of $4650.00.

Note that this isnt taking in to account any problems, tax, broken parts, installer incompetance, intercooler placement or anything that might pop up. Nor does it take into account upgrades that you may wish to do if you plan to later modify the 3S-GTE. You may also expect to pay a bit extra to insure register and drive your car after the swap.

----

received over email...."a cheaper alternative for the ECU/Wiring situation would be to use your stock ECU to control chassis electrical functions, and an aftermarket standalone engine management system to run the engine. A new Haltech could run you $1000 to do this. A Wolf, maybe $750. Also, this will eliminate the need for some of those expensive sensors like AFM."

oh and in reagars to that statment that the 5sfe sucsk....i went to sears point raceway (infineon raceway) a while back and saw a pretty sick lokkin mr2 on the track linin up, im thinkin sweet get to see a tricked out mr 2 run, well he runs a mid 13, then i saw him race again, but by luck he races my friend.... i got to talkin to him after everyone was leavin and i ask him what mods hes done to his 3sgte to shave off the extra 1 and a half seconds....all he did was smile and pop the trunk (um i guess u could say hood...mid engine) and i see that in fact it was not a 3sgte and it was a 5sfe in tha back. He went from runnin a 16 and was hittn mid to high 13's in his mr2 non-turbo( but was a turboed 5sfe)........thats what basically makes me completey content on keeping a 5sfe in my car...the 5sfe dosent suck...look at how many civis out there on their 1.6 liter 120 Hp stock motoras that are pulln 12-15 psi of boost on hteir aluminum blocks and are hittn high 11's...........yeah ill admit the 3sgte is a better motor, but dont bash the 5sfe because im sure somone out there is hittn under 10 with one...not everyone wants a 500 Hp motor, some people just want enough power to twhere they can beat nething they pull up next to

oh and ghetto7o2azn your staement "the 3sgte transmition is also better geared for turboes and the redline is moved to 7200rpms" is worng

first off the trann yhas nothing to do with rpms...thats ur head, second there no way to put an all track tranney in a fwd car, and theres absolutley no possibel way of making a gt/gts celica into an awd car unles you wanna cut out half your chassis

drive your celica for what it is, not for what it isnt

i never said taht the tranny had anything to do with the rpms... thats your head... the 3sgte's redline is at 7200

yeah please quote me saying "the 5sfe sucks" i kno of a 5sfe that runs 10's... but really now it itsnt really a 5sfe any more since when most people turbo a 5sfe they stick the 3sgte head on it... i have heard of various people blowing up their engines turboing the 5sfe... which is not uncommon... to be safe u would have to set your psi probably below 15psi which would not get u to ur 200whp goal... to increase the psi u would need multiple adjustments to strengthen the engine... your celica would end up in the shop for multiple days and order parts from all over.. its just too much of a hastle to do

imo the celica was never meant to be a fast car... it is a fwd economy car... (the alltrac is a different story) for this reason i think it would be easier to get another car... for the price that it would cost swap a 3sgte in u could probably buy a stock turbo 91 - 93 mr2 and u wont have to worry about the tranny problems, or anything else that could co wrong durring the swap... plus u would also have rwd (big plus imo) or u could even buy an alltrac if u can find one and sell your current celica..... either that, or stick on minor mods like an exhaust, intake, etc.. but i garentee thats not gonna get u 200whp

Get a 3S-GTE out of an MR2, it should fit. MR is mounted transversally like FF, except in the back of car instead of the front.

i didnt say u said 5sfe ghetto someone welse sid it, yeah i know its easy to blow a 5sfe just be carefull and not stipu

lol 91 celica st is wrong, u can probly get the swap done with about 2500 if u do all ur own work and have someone do the wireing. but i don tthink 200hp is an unreasonable goal, right now for my celica im am collecting turbo parts, 13psi shoudl be breaking into the 200 hp range, but i wouldnt want to push more than 6 psi on a sstock engine. go do celica.net and search for 5sfte in their forums

haha this KID is a faggot, hes following all my posts contradiciting what im saying so he acan have more posts on automotive forums

I think it's completely unrealistic to swap a 5sfe for a 3SGTE. Everyone on internet celica forms talk and talk about it as if it's an easy job. The truth is, that's one of the more difficult swaps there is. You are better off than some, considering the car did come with one in the all-trac and is a little easier because of that, but pretending as though a complete wiring harness as well as ECM and sensors are easy to come by and inexpensive is ridiculous. The main problem here is that people are too unwilling to think outside the box. There are so many possible ways to make horsepower from a 5SFE, and 200 HP at the wheels is not a lofty goal. Even without getting the motor out of the car and tinkering with internals, it's not unrealistic to get those kind of numbers. Nitrous is a very easy way to make power, as well as things like an MSD box, cold-air intake, header, full custom exhaust, bigger injectors, programmable ECM, bigger throttle body, fuel cooler, spark-plug wires, etc. There are so many possible ways to get to 200 WHP, so many different combinations, it's really just a choice of how to get there, not if you can or not. When it comes to 4 cylinder cars, it's all about the exponential power gains that come from modification after modification. That's what tuning is all about, that's why it's fun, because it's a challenge to get something like a 5SFE to go fast when it's only a stock 135-140 HP engine. I have a 1990 Celica and I plan on making way more than 200 WHP without swapping a 3SGTE in place of the 5SFE. Once you get into the engine itself, there's cam upgrades, cylinder head porting (and not just polishing, actually shaping the intake and exhaust ports), combustion chamber polishing, bigger valves (2JZ valves fit and are 1.0 mm bigger), multi angle valve jobs, port matching on intake and exhaust manifolds, heavy valve springs, lightweight pistons, rings, and connecting rods, higher compression pistons, balanced rotating assembly, less compression height, lightweight flywheel, pressure plate and clutch, lightweight balancer, oil recovery improvements, etc. It's all about combining the benefits of each modification.

but when your all done, you have to ask yourself if it was really worth it... toyota's fe engines were made to be economy engines... they werent made to go fast, even though they can be.... when your all done, uve spent a couple thousand dollars, many hours, and you have a 200whp car... you can buy another car, maybe add a couple simple things (ecu, exhaust, etc.) and end up with more power for the same price and less time...

true but there is the p[ossblilty of a head swap as well, any"s" series motors head will fit on this car, like the 3sge, or 3sgte head will fit,

F head is econemy head,close cams, quick HP and tq curve but you dont have shit high end

G head, true twin cam, all high end HP and Tq

well the earlier arguement was that the 5sfe tranny wasnt made for the power line the 3sgte has... well if u swapped the head, and added a turbo, it wouldnt be right for that curve either... then there is the arguement on swapping the gt4 tranny in... basically you would end up doing a 3sgte swap the longer way

yeah the 5sfe tranny is close gear ratios to maximise tourqe, it wasnt meatn to be a drag tranney.... and yuo cant get a gt4 tranney on it, thjere awd and you have a fwd car

People, people people!!! im back, after not being online for like 1 month, and i am the creator of the question that has puzzled many young kids with no money about the 200WHP on a 90 celica. I find all this fighting and fueding over the 5SFE, 3SGTE, and the 5th generation Celica during the time i was gone. First of all please congradualte me because i now work at toyota of whittier, in California, as a porter. Anyways after doing some research with my fellow co workers (mainly mechanics), we have all came to a conclusion the 5SFE is strictly for Fuel efficiency thats what the F in the 5SFE meens. Any type of bolt on modification for this engine will work against you, any type of forced air induction (turbo, supercharger) will falter on you, So please poeple do not, do not!! modify your celica unless you have, the wilderbeast of a celica known as the ALL-TRAC TURBO..

In conclusion i have learned my lesson after waisting so much money in the engine and exterior of the car, so i have recently sold my Celica GTS for $3000, and i have recntly purchased a 2005 corolla xrs. For you ignoramous that don't know what that is here you go..

2005 toyota corolla xrs
2zz-ge re tuned for some low end tq
170hp 7400rpm
127tq 4400rpm
6spd
its no longer vvti for the corolla, now it has Lift
and the car is significantly light 2600-2700 depending on options

thats all you need to know and ill smoke you, i will even smoke an all trac and thats N/A (naturally aspired) stock car.

In conclusion the 90-93 (excluding the all trac) toyota celica 5sfe is strictly a car to cruise the sunset blv, and watch the sunset slowly dwindle into the endless see, but then ill pass you by with my corolla xrs so LaLAlAlaLALALATEZZZZZZZZZ and to all you ppl that think they can beat me with there celica 5sfe bring it on because i will even lend you some of my hp, and you will still loose. LOL TRD for life

PS just wait for my mods, Turbo is coming sooon 260Whp

dude kid stfu, you wont even touch an all trac..... try and find an all trac that hasnt been modified in some way that wants to race you...you wont find one....

and btw ive seen 5sfe's with over 500 WHEEL HP and even heard of one with 900+...also i know poeple that have bolt ons... intake, headers, exhaust , and a set of cams that have dinoed at over 165 HP

5-th series of the
S- block motor with a
F- head (fuel econemy, close set of cams
e- electronically fuel injected

how about you cruise onto any of the mr2 and camry forums, most those guy s are pushin 200 + hp na and 250 + blown

before you open up your newbie mouth actually know what the fuck your talking about... oh and btw if you even watned to auto cross or mountain opass me kid, even with my 120 HP id destroy you

im sorry to say but id say the adverage mr2 is running 200hp at the wheels at least... most owners i have seen and met have at least 325 at the wheels going all the way up to 700+ on the stock bottom end... i wouldntbe suprized if u got killed by a STOCK mr2 turbo... a celica gts is faster than you with a 1/4 mile time in the mid 15's... since when was that fast? a better question... since when was 170hp something to brag about?

thats funny how ur 170 hp at (i looked online ) 2900 pounds, not the 2600-2700 you say, youd get smoked even by a celica gts, 180 Hp at a 2500 Curb weight, not t mention it has a closer set of gear ratios than ur car

i never said i smoke 2000-2005 celica's i said i would smoke any stock 90-93 celica's thats it, i never said mr2 or 2000 celica so get it right biatch stop making things up that were not even said. And as a matter of fact the corolla xrs wheight is less then 2700, the corolla matrix xrs is 2900 idiot!! dur. Look i know your all proud of your 5sfe motor, but im sorry that engine was not designed for performance, it was designed for economy. You spend $1000 on your 5sfe, and ill spend $1000 on my 2zzge, now lets see what is going to be better in then end.. Oh me because i have more power to beggin with so your just being stupid deffending something that is pointless to fix up.. So go suck a nut and exept the fact that the 5sfe is strictly for commuters. so just stop being stupid..

i never said i smoke 2000-2005 celica's i said i would smoke any stock 90-93 celica's thats it, i never said mr2 or 2000 celica so get it right biatch stop making things up that were not even said. And as a matter of fact the corolla xrs wheight is less then 2700, the corolla matrix xrs is 2900 idiot!! dur. Look i know your all proud of your 5sfe motor, but im sorry that engine was not designed for performance, it was designed for economy. You spend $1000 on your 5sfe, and ill spend $1000 on my 2zzge, now lets see what is going to be better in then end.. Oh me because i have more power to beggin with so your just being stupid deffending something that is pointless to fix up.. So go suck a nut and exept the fact that the 5sfe is strictly for commuters. so just stop being stupid..

haha by saying youd smoke an all track ur saying ud kill an mr2 becuase they have the same motor and run roughly the same 1/4 mile ( mr2 is 300 punds less and is mid engine, but celica has AWD)...
"and to all you ppl that think they can beat me with there celica 5sfe bring it on because i will even lend you some of my hp, and you will still loose. LOL TRD for life"
nice lie fag, u just stated ud beat any 5sfe motor and now ur saying you beat any stock one? ur like john kerry stop changing ur story


You spend $1000 on your 5sfe, and ill spend $1000 on my 2zzge, now lets see what is going to be better in then end..

simple, buy ct-20 turbo , lines, oil pan exhaust manifold and BOv and you got ur self a faster car than 2zzge thats spent $1000 on it ( look on ebay, with $1000 you can roughly only buy intake headers and exhast and mabe ignition...newer car....more expensive parts)...all id have to do is boost 10psi hope my motor dosent blow and ifd smoke the doors off ur corolla even if you put $1000 into it...


and thats just an ignorant statment..."Any type of bolt on modification for this engine will work against you, any type of forced air induction (turbo, supercharger) will falter on you, So please poeple do not, do not!! modify your celica unless you have, the wilderbeast of a celica known as the ALL-TRAC TURBO.."

show me a dyno slip of someone with i/h/e that actually lowered the Hp...cuz i can show some that gretly improve them.... and fyi there 5sfe with stock bottem ends running 12 psi out there


Do some research before you go around lying like joh nkerry thinkin ur the shit kid... ur matrix amy be faster stock to stock but if we autocrossed or mountain passed kid...even with ur 40 hp+ on me id kill you

lol, this is way off topic, but 91 celica st, are you a bush supporter? Just curious no real reason.

no i hope kerry wins simply becuase bush bases all his laws on religion, mailey stem cell research, cristpher reeves may still be alive if he didnt ban it...

FUCK BUSH
FUCK KERRY

im just vieing with the lesser of 2 evils, and my opinion is kerry

Dude im not even going to argue, all i got to say is that a 2zzge will not blow with 10 psi. And also u r a loser

First off 91 celica st is a fuckin nut case...and second, get a V8.

lol..you guys are funny...lol...maybe the actual topic seems to be off topic now but...if you check out shiftgateperformance...they're making an intercooled turbo for the 5sfe...includes everything for 2500...not built yet but very close to finished...anywho though...hope that wasnt said on page 2...i skipped it

oops my bad i meant ill spend $1000 on my 5sfe and you spend $1000 on ur 2zzge and see who gets more HP...ZZ parts are expensive as fuck because of their realative newness, look on ebay or online parts stores, headers for 2zzge sell for $300+ (not shitty ebay headers) and ones for 5sfe sell foprr less than $150 (i.e. pacesetter)

i foudn a 5sfe turbo kit for $1000

anf fyi the amount of money you spend on the v8's gas....you could spend on performance parts for a 5sfe or 3sgte and mke it faster....:)

what? a 2zz isnt a v8...

really i didnt know that....(sarcasm)
for real tho the best advice anyone of us can give him is turbo...its gunna be the esayest and cheapest way to hit 200 WHP...

then what in the hell was the post talking about the 2zz is .4L smaller than the 5sfe's

some dude named biggd said mit not me... ghetto...me n u own the celica board....u should know by know im not retarded