Is the Chevelle 454 LS6 the fastest Muscle Car?


mkent
07-28-2004, 01:35 PM
Hey Guys,

I saw the thread started about the fastest muscle car. Good topic, but I think the answer isn't too far away.


Looks like the guys at Dream Car Garage created a Muscle Car Shootout that is airing on SPEED and the Chevelle 454 LS6 was one of their entrants.

Check it out at www.dreamcargarage.com.


Click on the hotspot on the homepage for more info!

Do you guys think anything was left out?

Here is all the info on the shootout (http://dreamcargarage.com/musclecarshootout.htm)

http://dreamcargarage.com/Images/musclecarshootout1499.jpg

MrPbody
08-02-2004, 01:38 PM
The answer depends on how "muscle car" is defined. In the pure form, you're about right. The '70 Chevelle with the 450 horse 454 is a MONSTER! Others will counter with the Hemi Dart, but a Dart is a compact, not intermediate. There's also an arguement to be made for a hemi-powered B-body. With traction (not present with stock tires), hemis are pretty hard to beat. And if low-production cars are to be considered, there's the '69 Ram Air V GTO. Rare as hell (about 20 made), but bad-ass! (11s with just tires)
But in general, the BB Chevelle with rectangular port heads was very tough to beat with anything else...

nhstiger75
08-09-2004, 07:05 PM
The Chevelle 454 was one of the fastest muscle cars. Of course I'll counter that with a Hemi Cuda/Charger/RoadRunner but in all honesty the Chevelle 454 will run with them if not beat them assuming you're talking about factory setup.

Musclecar Freak!
08-18-2004, 02:49 AM
When ever you find a site that has the top fastest musclecars of all time, the Chevelle isn't first. On those sites with the top fastest musclecars, the LS6 was tested with a four speed and 3.55 gears and it pulled a 13.12 in the quartermile. The LS6 is one of my personal favorites, thats why I'm here to back it up on why It should be the quickest musclecar of all time. Quartermile tests show that the LS6 Chevelle never dipped in 12's on stock tires. The reason of this is that the horsepower/torque ratio was so great in the LS6 that they could never get street tires to stick, they always spun. This car also weighed 4050 pounds, very heavy. I think that someone should test an LS6 with 4.10 gears, the M-22 Rockcrusher, and have the balls to turn 6 grand. I think they should really get some smoke goin on to heat the tires up really good like maybe 2 or 3 burnouts. If the right driver has the guts and risks the 6100 rpm shiftpoint before shiftin, you might pull a 12.9. Alotta guys don't redline because they think the radiator hose is gonna bust or is gonna throw a rod but they need to get high R's so when they shift, the drop down is right in that 450 horse range. I think if they do a good test like that with the car they will make better than a 13.12.

Cryo boy
08-18-2004, 04:16 AM
I think that the chevelle will win the shootout. thats all i gotta say

tim1950
08-18-2004, 10:31 AM
The Boss 429 "Must stank" I mean Mustang won. OH WELL! being a die hard Chevy man, I was disappointed.

MrPbody
08-18-2004, 01:54 PM
Yup, they gave it to the Mustang. BUT... Mustangs aren't muscle cars. They're "pony cars". The TV show was fun to watch, but wasn't a straight-up comparison. The Chevelle showed about right. The Olds and Buick were "special" models with enhanced production engines. The GTO was severley handicapped by 50-plus cubes and one year shy of the best handling GTO. The Dodge was ill before it ever got off the trailer, and the Rambler was just there to make a point.
Had they used the real muscle cars from Ford, Dodge and Rambler, they would not have been in the running. A Torino Cobra or Cyclone GT with the 429 SCJ would have been the best Fords, and the B-bodies should have been represented in the MOPAR group. A Hemi or even a 440 Magnum in a GTX was a HANDFUL! Those cars were VERY quick in street trim. The same can be said for Roadrunner and Charger. I remember the TV commercials for the '70 Super Bee "6-Pack". It was guarenteed to run 12s or your money back! The only Rambler would have been the Rebel "Machine", but that car wouldn't get out of it's own way...

DGB454
08-18-2004, 04:30 PM
They left out many vehicles that should have been included.

nova68
08-18-2004, 07:49 PM
i mean if they run special engines on other cars then yenko cars should be allowed!!

Partizan_
08-19-2004, 07:41 AM
i mean if they run special engines on other cars then yenko cars should be allowed!!

If the Yenko is allowed then the LZ1 must be also...

i quote musclecars.com..

"Specially designed to compete in the NHRA Super Stock drag classes, Chevrolet made it an option under the COPO system (code 9560). The cars began as SS396/375bhp Camaros with the F41 suspension. The SS trim and engine were deleted, and the 427 engine, cowl-induction hood, front disc brakes, a choice of heavy duty 4 speed transmissions or Turbo Hydra-matic, and a 4:10 posi axle were added. But instead of the regular iron-block and head L72 found in the dealer installed Camaros, the ZL1 sported aluminum heads and the first aluminum block ever made by Chevrolet. It shared the L88 aluminum head/iron block's engine rating of 430 bhp but made closer to 500 bhp -- making it probably the most powerful engine Chevrolet ever offered to the public. And the engine weighed just 500 pounds, the same as Chevy's 327 small block. The car was blessed with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty and was fully street legal. With factory exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; with headers and slicks, it could turn 11.6s @ 122mph. This was the fastest car ever produced by Chevrolet. Performance had its price -- $4,160 for the ZL1 engine alone pushing the price of the Camaro ZL1 to an unbelieveable $7,200 (about double the price for a SS396 Camaro). Chevy needed to build 50 to qualify the car for racing, and in the end built 69 Camaros and 2 Corvettes with the ZL-1 engine. Their high price made them difficult to sell and at least 12 engines were removed and about 30 cars were returned back to Chevrolet. It took until the early 1970s to sell them all. One can only wonder what they are worth today."

MrPbody
08-19-2004, 10:01 AM
Yup, and if Yenko and ZL-1 are allowed, so must Ram Air V. Or maybe even a couple Royal Bobcats. The '69 428 car was clocked in the low 12s on street tires. And there was always the Motion Performance crowd... Phase III Camaros were down right NASTY! What if we put slicks on all of them? Who would get it then? WIDE OPEN!!!
Aren't "what ifs" fun? If slicks were allowed, and cars were tuned right, BEFORE the race, I would have to go with the Hemis, as much as I like GM cars. But racing and "street racing" are two completely different animals. My Judge wasn't much at the track (mid-13s when stock), but it ate up the vast majority on the street. My older sister always said it was because I would let it all hang out EVERY race, and others would hold back. I'm not so sure... A Ram Air GTO from a 20 MPH roll could be lethal.

balls_to_the_wall
08-28-2004, 07:27 PM
Well...if they just wanted one of the fastest cars made in the 60's early 70's...a hemi dart would have made their day...10.3 on contemporary rubber, and now they are breaking into the 8 second zone.

tim1950
10-07-2004, 06:33 PM
Muscle Car DefinitionIntroduction:

Perhaps the most common question people have is what exactly is a muscle car. The term wasn't even used until the late 1970s, in the 1960s there were often called "Super Cars" if called anything at all. Therefore, the actual definition of a muscle car, or which models were muscle cars, is a topic that is often disputed. Here is the general interpretation of what is a muscle car and what cars qualify, and which don't.


Vehicle
Muscle Car?
Classification
Notes
AMC AMX
Yes
Pony Car
Even though it only has two seats, because it is based on the Javalin, it is a muscle car
AMC Javalin
No
Pony Car
Only the AMX variation or big block V8s are considered muscle cars
Buick GS
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Based on Buick Skylark
Buick Riviera
No
Personal Luxury Car
Too expensive and big
Buick Skylark (non-GS)
No
Intermediate Car
Only GS versions are considered muscle cars
Buick Wildcat
No
Fullsize Car
Too large
Chevrolet Camaro
Yes
Pony car
Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Chevelle SS
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Chevelle (non-SS)
No
Intermediate
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Corvette
No
Sports Car
The two seats, fiberglass body, and high price make it a sports car.
Chevrolet Impala SS
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
No
Personal Luxury
Too expensive
Chevrolet Nova
Yes
Compact Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chrysler 300 Letter Cars
No
Personal Luxury
Way too expensive and luxurious
Dodge Challenger
Yes
Pony Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Charger
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Coronet
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Dart
Yes
Compact
Only Darts with 383 or 440 engines are considered muscle cars
Dodge Daytona
Yes
Specialty Muscle Cars
-
Dodge Super Bee
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Ford Fairlane / Torino GT/Cobra
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only GT and Cobra models are considered muscle cars
Ford Galaxie
Yes
Fullsize muscle
Only Galaxies with 390 engines or larger are considered muscle cars
Ford Mustang
Yes
Pony Car
GTs, Mach 1's and Boss Mustangs are considered muscle cars
Mercury Comet / Cyclone
Yes
Intermediate
Only GTs and Cyclones are considered muscle cars
Mercury Cougar
Yes
Pony Car
Only GTs, Eliminators, and Boss engine models are considered muscle cars
Oldsmobile 442
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Oldsmobile Cutlass
No
Intermediate
Only 442 models are considered muscle cars
Plymouth Barracuda
No
Pony car
Only 'Cuda models are considered muscle cars
Plymouth 'Cuda
Yes
Pony car
'Cudas with 340s are generally not considered muscle cars
Plymouth Duster
Yes
Compact Muscle Car
Only Dusters with 340s are considered muscle cars
Plymouth GTX
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Plymouth Road Runner
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Plymouth Superbird
Yes
Specialty Muscle Car
-
Pontiac Catalina 2+2
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only Catalinas with 400+ cid engines are considered muscle cars
Pontiac Firebird
Yes
Pony Car
Only Firebirds with 400 cid engines are considered muscle cars
Pontiac Grand Prix
No
Personal Luxury
Too expensive
Pontiac GTO
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
The first true muscle car


Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO


Fullsize Muscle Car:

The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.


Pony Cars and Compact Cars:

In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.

Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.


Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:

Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.

Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, Monte Carlo etc.


Two Seat Sports Cars:

Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.




All material Copyright 2003 by Musclecarclub.com

huckleberrydude
10-18-2004, 02:39 PM
I guess a muscle car has to be old?
My dead stock Z06 runs 12.1

1966ChevelleSS
10-19-2004, 06:13 PM
Actually according to the Muscle Car Guide the 66 shelby cobra 427 is the fastest muscle car. But the Ls6 is still fast

NOVA350SS630hp
10-31-2004, 10:46 AM
well fastest muscle car 60's -early 70's (72) the chevelle is the bad ass of bad asses, 450hp factory but in fact it was closer to 500 + hp now there is ZL1 and fords 428 and hemi and this and that and more or that then this, ok now ZL1 nobody can really match the ZL1 rated at 556 hp but really had more then 600hp and the new body ZL1 one web site shows one with 775hp. Now most guys would say but my ZO6 can beat old cars and it runs low 12s or whatever, now think how heavy the old cars are compare to the new ones of today and a vette come on a 440 charger runs high 11s on stock tires and a zo6 a stock zo6 runs low 12s now put that not lets put a LS6 motor from a 70 chevelle and put it in a zo6 body and think what it can run. now with todays cars all they did was drop the weight, and now use computers and now you can buy perf chips and this and that now most WOULD SAY THAT a 66 shelby cobra 427 is the fastest but then your leaving out the 66 427 vette stingray wich IN FACT , FACT people is faster and thee fastest, But why say that a LS6 chevelle is the fastest Well im sorry but not every could own a 66 427 vette stingray so got the next best thing LS6 chevelle but all in all in not about the fastest is muscle cars rule the streets and will always rule doesnt matter gas prices to go cruz on the open road then to punch it there is nothing like a real muscle car ford , GM, doesnt matter

balls_to_the_wall
11-01-2004, 03:19 PM
Is this thread considered dead yet...it seems like weeks between posts...it was started in july....how bout it just gets killed?

FortechMini11
11-04-2004, 01:45 AM
ZL1's fastest tested ET was a 10.14 @ 132mph

victimizati0n
11-14-2004, 08:45 AM
what about the ZL-1?

im quite sure it was faster than the chevelle

im4abj
11-21-2004, 07:29 PM
i seen in alot of magzines that the 66 shelby cobra 427 because it had alot of power with very little weight, i think its like 1 hp per 3 pounds or something like that

bowties4everamen
11-27-2004, 03:57 AM
The Hurst Hemi dart is without a doubt, the fastest ever built by Detroit. Right out of the box it ran in the 9's. In comparision, the Ls6 Heavy Chevy, was the last of the greats. Its the pinicale of the horsepower wars the big 3 were having and the federal government killed all the fun in 1971 when the insurance industry and EPA got their hooks into the industry.

laffn69chevelle
12-14-2004, 03:10 AM
the fastest production car i hate to say was a buick gsx right off the show room floor or a olds w30 or 31 i'm not sure about the #'s on olds but i know it was one of those two cars they did a test a while back and the buick was the fastest out of all the muscle cars in their time.

Ground Rat
12-22-2004, 05:49 AM
i seen in alot of magzines that the 66 shelby cobra 427 because it had alot of power with very little weight, i think its like 1 hp per 3 pounds or something like that

The magazines that say the '66 Cobra was the fastest don't even take into account the ZL-1 Corvette, or the '69 Yenko 427 Nova. The Corvette is not a muscle car, but the Nova is. The Nova hit 10s with headers and rubber.

Ground Rat
12-22-2004, 05:57 AM
Well...if they just wanted one of the fastest cars made in the 60's early 70's...a hemi dart would have made their day...10.3 on contemporary rubber, and now they are breaking into the 8 second zone.

Those factory hemi darts and 'cudas were not street legal.

wedgemotor
12-27-2004, 05:04 PM
Ok let me first say that you all have valid points on the fastest musclecar. But I will try to make a general statement as to why I think the LS6 is king. I know first off that I have generally been a Mopar guy my whole life and had many arguments about this before defending certain cars, but the one that always comes out on top is the 70 LS6, and here is why.
Most people would agree that the first musclecar was the 64 gto. Most people would agree that the last musclecar was the 74 SD Trans Am, or other 74 cars such as 74 GTX package Road runners, 360 cars, either way if you assume this than you are talking about the period of 64-74.
Yeah I know about "late" musclecars but I am making a generalization. Chevrolet produced over 2200 LS6 Chevelles, as a "packaged musclecar". That would definately put it in a mass production state.
My experiences of seeing musclecars over the years have brought me to believe that this car was and is still the car to beat, this may piss alot of people off, especially my Mopar bretheren. Why not a Hemi? Simple. Assuming you put up a HemiCuda. The fastest road test I have seen ran a 13.10. I have never seen a stock Hemicuda run this. In all of my years, at the Mopar Drag races, never. I have seen an LS6 chevelle run a 12.90 and this was in the 80's before all of these Buicks came out. They never ran 12's stock back in the day, even though NHRA refactored their 360hp rating to 400, because they were whipping people with the stage 1. Personally the fastest "Stock" car I have ever seen run was a 68 GTO RAII. I looked it over and even talked to the owner and it ran a 12.51, and drove to the track and back, with 3.55 safe-t-track rear. Anyway I think as a whole that the majority of LS6 Chevelles are the fastest mass produced musclecars. I can hear the replies-

MrPbody
12-28-2004, 02:40 PM
Wedgemotor,
Good for you! Logic overrides emotion! I get a bit of razzing for that one!
But seriously, I've been wracking my brain, trying to remember. I recall a commercial ad for the '70 Super Bee 6-Pack. They claimed the car would go 12s or your money back! I also recall the ad, where the guy grabbed the gears and made a 12.80 pass.
I have also never seen a true STOCK Hemi car go 12s. Usually, it's traction issues, more than power or handling. Some good slicks on them, and watch it! But the statement about slicks could be applied to all of them. I know of at least two '65 GTO TriPower cars that went 12.60 with no changes other than slicks. They were 4.33/4-speed cars, so they were intended to go FAST in a 1/4 mile. I know of a low 11 second SS454 Chevelle with slicks and gears, still has iron exhaust.
At Indy this year, there was a D/SA '67 Firebird 400 running 10.70 all weekend. That's slicks, headers, gears and other traction equipment, STOCK engine, right down to the correct Q-Jet and points. If that car can run THAT HARD, imagine what a 454 Chevelle can do with similar mods. I guess NHRA factored them to death, or they would be dominant.
FWIW

Jim

wedgemotor
12-29-2004, 08:26 AM
I am glad you understand where I am coming from pbody. I know that given all the right circumstances a Hemi car can't lose... but I was talking about a musclecar package though. Six pack cars are hard to beat. I know of a guy in Ohio who has, two V-code 70 challengers and both cars run 13.5 ets on polyglass tires and both cars are stock, (I saw the rebuild) and run 3.55 sure grips with a torque flight. Here is the kicker, one of them has never been rebuilt! It is also a convertible! I believe they only made about 40 or so. cool stuff!

mokicruz
01-04-2005, 08:43 AM
The Nova with the 396 and L88 heads from the Factory was the fastest at our drag strip. He ran high 11's all the time there were several Hemi Cuda's that ran there but they never could hook up very well.There was a real fast "72" GS Buick with a 455. That also broke into the 11's . This was a Pure stock class we ran in only slicks and gearing could be used to improve performance. Who was fastest at your drag strip? Magazines are cool with alot of info but from one year to the next no one agrees about How the competion should be ran or who's the fastest. I just go by who blew my Doors off.

Autofreefindersguy
02-03-2005, 11:48 AM
This may be an old thread, but were taking GREAT American history here!

Good stuff guys!

wedgemotor
02-06-2005, 06:04 PM
Muscle Car DefinitionIntroduction:

Perhaps the most common question people have is what exactly is a muscle car. The term wasn't even used until the late 1970s, in the 1960s there were often called "Super Cars" if called anything at all. Therefore, the actual definition of a muscle car, or which models were muscle cars, is a topic that is often disputed. Here is the general interpretation of what is a muscle car and what cars qualify, and which don't.


Vehicle
Muscle Car?
Classification
Notes
AMC AMX
Yes
Pony Car
Even though it only has two seats, because it is based on the Javalin, it is a muscle car
AMC Javalin
No
Pony Car
Only the AMX variation or big block V8s are considered muscle cars
Buick GS
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Based on Buick Skylark
Buick Riviera
No
Personal Luxury Car
Too expensive and big
Buick Skylark (non-GS)
No
Intermediate Car
Only GS versions are considered muscle cars
Buick Wildcat
No
Fullsize Car
Too large
Chevrolet Camaro
Yes
Pony car
Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Chevelle SS
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Chevelle (non-SS)
No
Intermediate
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Corvette
No
Sports Car
The two seats, fiberglass body, and high price make it a sports car.
Chevrolet Impala SS
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
No
Personal Luxury
Too expensive
Chevrolet Nova
Yes
Compact Car
Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
Chrysler 300 Letter Cars
No
Personal Luxury
Way too expensive and luxurious
Dodge Challenger
Yes
Pony Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Charger
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Coronet
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars
Dodge Dart
Yes
Compact
Only Darts with 383 or 440 engines are considered muscle cars
Dodge Daytona
Yes
Specialty Muscle Cars
-
Dodge Super Bee
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Ford Fairlane / Torino GT/Cobra
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
Only GT and Cobra models are considered muscle cars
Ford Galaxie
Yes
Fullsize muscle
Only Galaxies with 390 engines or larger are considered muscle cars
Ford Mustang
Yes
Pony Car
GTs, Mach 1's and Boss Mustangs are considered muscle cars
Mercury Comet / Cyclone
Yes
Intermediate
Only GTs and Cyclones are considered muscle cars
Mercury Cougar
Yes
Pony Car
Only GTs, Eliminators, and Boss engine models are considered muscle cars
Oldsmobile 442
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Oldsmobile Cutlass
No
Intermediate
Only 442 models are considered muscle cars
Plymouth Barracuda
No
Pony car
Only 'Cuda models are considered muscle cars
Plymouth 'Cuda
Yes
Pony car
'Cudas with 340s are generally not considered muscle cars
Plymouth Duster
Yes
Compact Muscle Car
Only Dusters with 340s are considered muscle cars
Plymouth GTX
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Plymouth Road Runner
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
-
Plymouth Superbird
Yes
Specialty Muscle Car
-
Pontiac Catalina 2+2
Yes
Fullsize Muscle Car
Only Catalinas with 400+ cid engines are considered muscle cars
Pontiac Firebird
Yes
Pony Car
Only Firebirds with 400 cid engines are considered muscle cars
Pontiac Grand Prix
No
Personal Luxury
Too expensive
Pontiac GTO
Yes
Intermediate Muscle Car
The first true muscle car


Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO


Fullsize Muscle Car:

The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.


Pony Cars and Compact Cars:

In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.

Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.


Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:

Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.

Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, Monte Carlo etc.


Two Seat Sports Cars:

Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.




All material Copyright 2003 by Musclecarclub.com
So by your definition, any nova ss is a musclecar, I guess that means the early 6-cylinders too, and my car is not a muscle car nor a pony car, a 70 Dart Swinger 340, hello you forgot about the little engine that could. Anyway we all pretty much get the idea though.

jdrumstik
02-07-2005, 03:40 PM
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO




I think then a lot of those cars would be disissed, last I checked chevelle SS, Ford Cobras, and GTOs were running well over 20K, making them unafordable to the average person since they can't ussually be used as daily drivers.

cobrajazz
02-09-2005, 12:44 PM
I don't think anybody Mentions 69 Nova 396 4speed. Big Block Engine, Lite weight body. That is the Key. I watched it on some show, I don't remember but They said it was the Fastest. I am not Bais cause I Have a 70 Chevelle SS 454 LS6. Here in Tucson. I run 12.5 @ 107mph. Balanced Blue Printed Engine Other than that Engine is Stock All though I run ET Street Slicks. 3500 Stall. Shift kit. Exhaust Cut Outs. 4.11 gears, 750 Holly. It should be a 850 Demon. Soon Looking to Sell It. That will be very Hard to Part with. I will work on my 65 Fastback with most of the Money I get from the Chevelle. That is my next Project. Love Muscle Cars. I drive a Honda Accord LX For Pizza Hut to save on GAS. Thanks for Hondas :)

NOVA71
06-19-2005, 04:43 PM
I have to agree with wedgemotor. The 70 Chevelle SS has to be the KING! I mean really, to be able to walk into a dealership and buy something so readily available! Yes, the Hemis were fast but not near as consistent as the Chevelle at the track, and also a little rarer to come across. The big block Novas were fast too, but more of a low key car. You know they had the sleeper thing covered. If the Nova had gotten the LS6 and wieghing almost 1000lbs less and maybe the bold stripes, I don't think we'd be asking this question.

sub006
06-28-2005, 09:41 PM
Actually Road & Track magazine invented the term "Musclecar" (one word) in a 1965 article surveying the new crop of big-engine intermediates.

As one who grew up in Southern California in the street racing for money culture, the consistently fastest stock model is almost never mentioned in muscle car circles.

I worked for a Chevy dealer (mostly on Corvettes) in 1967 and the big blocks still had a lot of bugs in them, mostly valve train weaknesses. The 327 was the way to go but you needed a light car to let it shine.

The cars that consistently brought home the green were '65-'67 Chevy IIs and Novas with the 350 (closer to 370 actual) horse 327s! Removing weight is always more efficient than adding power.

NOVA71
06-28-2005, 09:53 PM
Ah, the L-79 Novas. I know a guy that has a 67 and yes they are fast!

sub006
07-14-2005, 01:35 AM
GTO, Chevelle SS, GTX, Cobra 428, all nice cars if you wanted pretty styling and some luxuries. But not for the average person who needed to win money or a pink on the street in the late 60's.

Ask any physicist, light weight will alway trump big power. While many don't consider them musclecars, the '62-'67 Chevy II's and Novas equipped with small blocks would run away and hide from everything else, including Hemi intermediates.

Bill Jenkins, Bill Thomas and others knew what they were doing!

Fleet 472
07-23-2005, 02:21 AM
The Dodge Coronet is not a full-sized car; it's an intermediate (the wheelbase is 117"). The Plymouth Fury, with its 119" wheelbase, along with the Chevy Impala/Caprice and Ford Galaxie which also had 119" wheelbases are full-sized cars.

Fleet 472
07-23-2005, 02:25 AM
Those factory hemi darts and 'cudas were not street legal.
I've seen several of those at car shows driven off the street. They came from the factory with functional lights and windsheild wipers. In other words, in many cases, the Hemi-Darts and Barracudas which were not "street legal" can be driven on the street!

Fleet 472
07-23-2005, 02:29 AM
Ask any physicist, light weight will alway trump big power. While many don't consider them musclecars, the '62-'67 Chevy II's and Novas equipped with small blocks would run away and hide from everything else, including Hemi intermediates.
Stock, and with factory tires, those small block Chevy II's and Novas could run 1/4 miles in the 14s.
The fastest of the Hemi-intermediates could run in the 13s under the same conditions.

ctesla
07-27-2005, 10:35 AM
Stock, and with factory tires, those small block Chevy II's and Novas could run 1/4 miles in the 14s.
The fastest of the Hemi-intermediates could run in the 13s under the same conditions.

sub006 hit it:
less weight=more power

I don't get to drive my muscle car on the street much, since it is hard and expensive to find a 100octane pump; but take that 'tubed and tubbed' mentality to an American or European compact and mpg increases and light-to-light decreases.

as far as muscle cars; I'm GM biased (big block in a shoe box WINS), but those 427s in that british frame: whiplash!

ctesla

Fleet 472
07-29-2005, 01:21 AM
sub006 hit it:
less weight=more power

I don't get to drive my muscle car on the street much, since it is hard and expensive to find a 100octane pump; but take that 'tubed and tubbed' mentality to an American or European compact and mpg increases and light-to-light decreases.

as far as muscle cars; I'm GM biased (big block in a shoe box WINS), but those 427s in that british frame: whiplash!

ctesla
Less weight= faster acceleration, not more power.
I dug up a road test of a '62 Chevy II with a Corvette engine from the June, 1962 issue of Car Life magazine. Engine is the 327 V-8 with 360 horsepower and 352 ft/lbs torque. Compression ratio is 11.25:1. Let's compare with the mid-sized Hemi Mopars...

Car-------- Axle ratio- Weight-- 0-60 mph 1/4 mile Source
'62 Chevy II- 3.08:1--- 2,990 lbs-7.3 sec- 14.8@94--- C/L

'68 Dodge
Charger R/T- 3.23----- 4,035---- 4.8---- 13.5@105--- C/D
'69 Charger
500-------- 3.23----- 3,950---- 5.7---- 13.92@104.5-C/L
------------ 3.54----- 4,025---- 5.7---- 13.68@104.8-C/L
'69 Road
Runner----- 3.54----- 3,938---- 5.1---- 13.54@105.14-C/D
'68 Road
Runner----- N.A.----- N.A.----- N.A.---- 13.54@105.1- C/D
'71 Super Bee- 4.10--- 4,065---- 5.7----- 13.7@104---- M/T
'67 Satellite- N.A.----- N.A.------ N.A.--- 13.81@104--- C/D

(C/L... Car Life; M/T... Motor Trend; C/D... Car & Driver)

MrPbody
07-29-2005, 01:31 PM
2005 GTO, 13.25 @ 108 MPH. Stock as a rock, seen it with m own eyes (Dinwiddie, VA, May, 05). With slicks? 12.50s all week...

Fleet 472
07-29-2005, 10:39 PM
1969 Plymouth Road Runner 440+6 bbl, 12.98 sec @ 111.66 mph (Drag Racing Magazine, June, 1969 with Ronnie Sox driving) Unmodified, factory stock tires.

MrPbody
08-01-2005, 09:15 AM
Fleet472,
I recall TV commercials in '70, where Dodge ran a SuperBee 6-Pack car into the 12s, and made a "money back" guarentee yours could do that, too. With all the talk here, I was wondering about those claims. I never actually saw one do it, and pretty much never got beat by a 6-Pack anything (Ram Air GTO). But they DID make the claim! Good call.
JIm

Jim

Fleet 472
08-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Fleet472,
I recall TV commercials in '70, where Dodge ran a SuperBee 6-Pack car into the 12s, and made a "money back" guarentee yours could do that, too. With all the talk here, I was wondering about those claims. I never actually saw one do it, and pretty much never got beat by a 6-Pack anything (Ram Air GTO). But they DID make the claim! Good call.
JIm

Jim
Super Stock magazine also got a '69 RR 440-6 bbl into the 12s (12.91) and a Chrysler ad of the same type of car ran 10 or 12 runs on the drag strip; their best time was 13 seconds flat (13.00 sec).

I've never heard of the claim you mentioned, but it does seem possible that a stock 440-6 RR could go into the high 12s with a properly-tuned engine, a track with decent traction and a good driver.

What year/engine is/was your GTO?

MrPbody
08-10-2005, 01:32 PM
'70 Judge, Ram Air III (366 HP 400), 4-speed, 3.55s, then 3.90s. Went 13.63 @ 108 at Orange County, May of '73, when it was truly stock (including the 3.55s and G70-14s) . Made some changes and went 12.40s at Firebird in Boise, in July of '80. Sold the car (like a dummy) in '87.
Drag strip racing wasn't "the thing" when I did most of my racing. In a street race, especially from a roll, that GTO was deadly. Took money from a lot of guys that said: "But Pontiacs don't run..." if I only had a dollar for every time I heard that. Or the 12 second Mustangs that really wouldn't go 14s...

Musclecar Freak!
08-21-2005, 11:30 PM
The 427 Cobra was 2200 lbs wet with about 485 horses and you could run it up to 7500 rpm. I love this car but thats not fair because dang. Now the LS6 being a two ton car runnin low 13's thats impressive. The muscle car era officially ended in '74, but except for a 73 stang, I won't take a musclecar later than 72. So a new Vette is an awesome car, but today's technology well isn't as lasting as it used to be, its more advanced but not that tough. Plus today's transmissions take barely any power to turn. Now a 727 Torqueflight, M-22 Rockcrusher, A833 4-spd, Toploader, etc. where hard to turn. Back then, those trans missions were a prime example of parasitic drag, you lost many horses, and thats just the trans, you count the rearend, A/C (if available), powersteering, you're losing at least 40 horses. But keep in mind that musclecars were underrated as well, the LS6 and the HEMI were both above the 500 horse mark. Also if you count Yenko's and ZL1's, then what about Joel Rosen's Baldwin Motion cars. The Motion Phase III 454 had 650 horses, and Darts weighd just 500 lbs more thatn a 427 Cobra so it all should be fare in saying that for factory, walkin and buy musclecars, the LS6 is the peak. Even though it was 500 bucks more than the Charger Daytona, Chevrolet still sold 4,475 LS6's as compared to 4,298 LS5's, thats impressive. Now Dodge Darts were sold with 340's and that i know of i don't remember them being equipped with Hemis, except for a hand ful that were given to drag racers, but then they sold them because they wanted to switch to the Cuda like Sox and Martin. Now if you want to be picky and very specific, then lets talk the Ford Thunderbolt, a very light car, 427 medium rise, and also 11.6 at 120+.

tuske427
08-22-2005, 01:01 PM
The problem with subjecxts like this is it's left too wide open to make a "black and white" answer like everyone wants. On top of that half the people here are listing figures from magazines and third party sources. As we all know, magazines would "tune" cars and otherwise "cheat" to get better ratings to sell magazines. Several have even admitted to once performing this type of practice.

In order to do this you need to clearly define your list of approved cars to select from. If it were me I'd include cars the average person could purchase from a dealer. this would include cars like the yenko and boss 429, etc, but not hemi darts and thunderbolts. these cars were one off's specially prepared for drag racers for brand image. they weren't readily available at a dealer. (not trying to sound like a chevy only person here)

then you need an unbiased source of info. Is that attainable today with everyone modifying their cars, or those that have stock ones not willing to thrash them for the best et because their value has soared higher than the average price of a home? I don't know.

But until you weed some of these variables out, nobody will be content with the answer you choose.

Just my 2 cents...

Scale-Master
09-13-2005, 03:14 PM
And then we have to define Fastest and Quickest... There is a big difference.

Jaguar D-Type
09-13-2005, 07:30 PM
So a new Vette is an awesome car, but today's technology well isn't as lasting as it used to be, its more advanced but not that tough.

More than any Corvette in recent years, the new Corvette Z06 is built for performance. Motor Trend tested it recently and it went through the 1/4 mile in 11.5 at 127 mph and 0 to 60 mph in 3.5 second. Plus, it has awesome brakes and handling.

The new Z06 has used racing technology unlike any Corvette ever built.

Corvette Z06 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=420611)

MrPbody
09-14-2005, 09:58 AM
That's all well and good, but we've strayed drastically from the original thread. Corvettes, Cobras, Mustangs, 'Cudas, etc., are NOT "muscle cars". Oh, they're plenty "muscular", but they are not intermediate bodies. Chevelle, GTO, SuperBee, Charger (383-plus), Road Runner ('70 and older, and a few of the later ones), Torino or Fairlane GT, Cyclone GT, these are ALL muscle cars. 442, GS, even the Rebel "Machine". But not Firebirds or Grand Prixs, Rivieras or Monte Carlos.
This has been debated before, but the truth remains. A sports car is a sports car, not a muscle car (Corvette, Cobra). A "pony car" is a pony car (Mustang, the car which the class is named for), 'Cuda, Camaro, Firebird, Challenger, Javelin, etc.
The term has lost it's identity over the last few years, mostly due to a fundemental misunderstanding of what the term means. Too many folks want to apply the term to THEIR choice in cars, rather than applying the appropriate name for the class. Just because a car is a bad-ass car with muscle, it is not necessarily a "muscle car".
Since MY choice in cars is none of the above, and I've been doing this for a living for over 30 years, I think my opinion should count for something. As I stated in the previous debate, it's not MY definition. It was defined when I was in the third grade... (1963, Jim Wangers and John Z. DeLorean...)

Jim

sub006
09-17-2005, 08:47 PM
Hey, Fleet 472!

Thanks for your input. Note that the '62 Chevy II with dealer-installed 327 was running 3:08s and 6:00 x 14 tires on 4 1/2 inch rims!

By the late 60's you could get Tiger Paws, T/A's, Wide Ovals, etc. like the Mopars you mention were shod with. Plus from '65-up the 327 Novas were factory engineered with heavy-duty brakes, suspension, cooling, etc. to make a total package. Low 13s, no problem!

Caddy engines are my favorite, a 500 is going in my '64 'Vette roadster!

Indycarlover
10-17-2005, 05:55 PM
yep, that LS6 is the stuff!
I have a buddy who has a 68 Vette Convertible with that 454 Chevelle LS6 block in it with orig. 1968 L89 Allum Intake & heads, headers, Electronic ignition and his is right around 500 Horse power!

Someone will love that car, he is selling her for $38,500!

ikeyballz
10-29-2005, 11:46 PM
damn. all this muscle car talk is making my '88 formy 'bird feel like a lil kid :( i guess its time to ressurect the 440 hi-po 4bbl charger my dad has..

CivicSlayr
12-20-2005, 05:06 AM
yenko 427 nova. 12's with slicks (from what i read)

SHALAKO
01-02-2006, 07:18 PM
The shelby cobra 427 and the 1966 427 vette are the fastest muscle cars according to a lot of websites. If you dont consider that a muscle car because it is too small then the other fastest are;

1969 Road Runner 440 6 pack

1970 Hemi Cuda 426 hemi

1970 Chevelle SS 454 LS6

1969 Camaro 427 LZ1

ghostrdr
01-22-2006, 12:01 AM
I think the all aluminum ZL1 camaro would take an LS6 provided of course either could catch any traction,

etrillion@comcast.
01-24-2008, 10:25 PM
all of those cars should be considered musclecars including hemi darts, zl1s, boss 429s, shelby cobras, corvettes, super duty pontiacs,thunderbolt fords,max wedge mopars,and 409 chevys because the performance from all of these cars should be compared with all of the high powered cars from the 60s and early 70s street and special order

maxwedge
01-25-2008, 03:02 PM
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