Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)


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MexSiR
07-06-2004, 01:29 PM
The production of cars from different parts of the world is related with their cultures. This thread does not intend to diminish any culture or manufacturer, it is done for plain comparison as how much the cars produced are related to the culture of the regions.

Please add any ideas and thoughts. These will be taken and then an article will be made on this subject.

Japannesse - Small space commonly seen in the hotels and the prices of large properties. Idea of making big things with small objects. For example Hondas and Toyotas small engines producing big horsepower.
People are generally short, fast (ping-pong, karate) translating into small cars, that are nimble and good handlers.

American US cars - Known for its good prices, and consumer mind. Cars offer the biggest bang for the buck in performance (SRT-4, Mustang SVT, Corvette ZO6, Viper). Everything is big in america, spaces are big, people are tall, translating into Big cars with big engines (V8 Muscle Cars).

European - Known for precision and design. Europe has the great attractive structures (eiffel tower, big ben, roman colliseum, pizza tower) etc translating into the best designs in cars (Ferrari, Bmw, Lamborghni etc...) Pioneers for many years in technological advancements seen in wars, translating into precise bulletproof engines and cars.

Once again, this thread does NOT intend to offend anyone. Bring on the ideas opinions, thoughts and observations.

kman10587
07-06-2004, 04:23 PM
I've always thought that Japanese cars make lots of power out of small engines because their culture is all about maximum efficiency and productivity.

mason_RsX
07-06-2004, 05:19 PM
Very good thought process and analyzation, it definately makes sense.

I would give Europe an engineering perfectionist label for their vehicles. Some of the innovations they have come up with (W cylinder design, 7 speed automatic, A 3.2L Inline 6 giving 333hp and 276 Lb Ft n/a)

I would say the Japanese do try to be effecient and get alot out of a little concerning the engines, but I also believe their interior technology, design and beauty (abstract and otherwise) is a key component. I think this respects Asia's clean and organized fashion

North America I believe is focused on not letting its brand reputation get in the way of the quality of its vehicle...Eg. Chevrolet, Dodge, and Ford aren't considered the performance oriented brand, but they produce some of the fastest cars on the market (Z06, Viper, Neon srt 4, Gt(40)). They dont classify each company as having to do one specific thing, but varying things. I believe this also describes its people in a sort of "you dont know wht we can do" way.

hahahaha or mabe I am just thinking way to deep into this.....

DinanM3_S2
07-06-2004, 06:17 PM
I dont like how you put all of Europe under one banner. You use words like precision, which I would only use to describe German cars. Like it the only cars in Europe that actually last are either German or 1980's Volvos. Most of the technological advances are also directly attributed to Germany (or Japan).

As far as design, nobody does it like Paninfarina and the Italians. Ferrari easily makes the nicest looking cars in the world.

Britain is all about big luxury cars. Jaguar makes almost nothing but Luxury sedans (X-Type, S-Type, etc.), and Aston only makes Luxury sports cars (AMV8, V12 Vanquish, DB7, DB9). But at the same time, the best sports cars in the world come from smaller british companies such as Noble, TVR, McLaren, and Lotus.

They dont sell French cars in America so I cant talk much about them. But I know that there design philosophies are somewhere between Japanese and American.

All im sayin here is that you cant put all European cars under one idea. Its varies from country to country.

CrzyMR2T
07-06-2004, 09:01 PM
i agree that cars varies from each country. i think that most technological advances, and good engineering are german, or japanese. italy seems to have great cars too. i wouldnt say europe, cause some european companies have cars that are no better than hyundai, and europe is in a lot of ways similar to japan, more so than the US.

aznxthuggie
07-06-2004, 09:13 PM
I would give Europe an engineering perfectionist label for their vehicles. Some of the innovations they have come up with (W cylinder design, 7 speed automatic, A 3.2L Inline 6 giving 333hp and 276 Lb Ft n/a)

the M3 CSL makes 360hp out of a 3.2 liter I6

Joseph1082
07-06-2004, 09:36 PM
I think people tend to forget the technological advances of America... we are overshadowed by our mere muscle and hunks of SUVs. This is all characteristic of America, but we have our technological achievements as well... 405HP out of a production v8... 230HP and 250lb of Torque from a 2.5 Turbo, running 13s in the quarter. I'd just like to remind everyone, though perhaps not directly represented in our automobiles, we are the most technologically advance nation, and an abundance of things used in the automobile we invented here.

christophv
07-07-2004, 09:05 AM
well, sometimes europeans are amused about the american engineering because the opinion "same shit for 50 years" is spread wide.

europeans focus on economy perfection combined with outstanding design. outstanding isn't always meant as "neat" but as "different" -

in our eyes, all american cars are the same -
there are these long bulgy sedans and oversized useless trucks -

http://www.fordvehicles.com/images/ataglance/CRV04REG_vagpgimage.jpg
no way you could show up with this shapeless ship. V8 SOHC? cmon

http://407.peugeot.de/media/design_exterieur_photo_03_zoom.jpg
european design, focus on distinguishability (what a word) 2.2l HDI - contra innovation: lots of unexpected problems possible, not customer friendliest

EU design ownz US design
just look at this 70s citroen cx!
http://www.carolineconnolly.com/fjp/city/b002/citroen-cx-dame-lane-1.jpg

Japanese/asian designs are always kinda agressive and pretend to be sporty imho
small engines, mostly high revving but sometimes very reliable.
choice over european cars when it comes to pricing.

But Asia also produces the smallest, ugliest cars. I heard their roads are a lot slimmer which excuses such things:
http://www.corfucarrentals.com/subaru.jpg

stereotype -
american cars are large, dull assembled, I-dont-care-I-need-4x-more-gas ships

european cars are mid-sized, economic, modern, I-would-fit-in-a-modern-art-museum clockworks with teething troubles

asian cars are small, ordinary reliable/designed, I'm-cheaper-not-better rev-devils

:icon16:

edit:
we are the most technologically advance nation

:loser: europe still is. FSI, DSG, HDI, ABS, ESP, ASR, cats - sorry, but I don't know any american innovations.

3000ways
07-07-2004, 10:15 AM
well, sometimes europeans are amused about the american engineering because the opinion "same shit for 50 years" is spread wide.

europeans focus on economy perfection combined with outstanding design. outstanding isn't always meant as "neat" but as "different" -

in our eyes, all american cars are the same -
there are these long bulgy sedans and oversized useless trucks -

http://www.fordvehicles.com/images/ataglance/CRV04REG_vagpgimage.jpg
no way you could show up with this shapeless ship. V8 SOHC? cmon

http://407.peugeot.de/media/design_exterieur_photo_03_zoom.jpg
european design, focus on distinguishability (what a word) 2.2l HDI - contra innovation: lots of unexpected problems possible, not customer friendliest

EU design ownz US design
just look at this 70s citroen cx!
http://www.carolineconnolly.com/fjp/city/b002/citroen-cx-dame-lane-1.jpg

Japanese/asian designs are always kinda agressive and pretend to be sporty imho
small engines, mostly high revving but sometimes very reliable.
choice over european cars when it comes to pricing.

But Asia also produces the smallest, ugliest cars. I heard their roads are a lot slimmer which excuses such things:
http://www.corfucarrentals.com/subaru.jpg

stereotype -
american cars are large, dull assembled, I-dont-care-I-need-4x-more-gas ships

european cars are mid-sized, economic, modern, I-would-fit-in-a-modern-art-museum clockworks with teething troubles

asian cars are small, ordinary reliable/designed, I'm-cheaper-not-better rev-devils

:icon16:

edit:


:loser: europe still is. FSI, DSG, HDI, ABS, ESP, ASR, cats - sorry, but I don't know any american innovations.

Wow good post, same shit for 50 years =).

CrzyMR2T
07-07-2004, 01:02 PM
I think people tend to forget the technological advances of America... we are overshadowed by our mere muscle and hunks of SUVs. This is all characteristic of America, but we have our technological achievements as well... 405HP out of a production v8... 230HP and 250lb of Torque from a 2.5 Turbo, running 13s in the quarter. I'd just like to remind everyone, though perhaps not directly represented in our automobiles, we are the most technologically advance nation, and an abundance of things used in the automobile we invented here.

yea we do have lots of technological advances, and great engineering, i just feel that we dont put as much in our cars. but military wise, we have all the best stuff.

the cars that we get from other countries are not always what they have, sometimes its a downgraded, or a slightly redesigned version of their cars.

DinanM3_S2
07-07-2004, 03:57 PM
The only innovation out of the SRT4's 230 hp 2.5L is the price. Sorry, but both Japan and Germany have cars that smash that Power/Displacement ratio, on naturally aspirated cars.

The other American "innovation" that was listed was the 405 hp corvette Z06 engine. Yet again, only good thing about this is the price. BMW got the same power numbers out of a much smaller V8 then the LS6.

O, and dont forget the SMG and Tiptronic (stupid yes, but better then a regular automatic) are from Europe too.

mason_RsX
07-07-2004, 05:15 PM
the M3 CSL makes 360hp out of a 3.2 liter I6

Mabe where you live...In Canada the hp is rated at 333....I do admit that I shouldn't have classified all of europe...I don't know very much about french cars ect...but I know Europe as Vw, audi, porsche, bmw, mercedes, lamborghini, ferrari, and such

V8slayer
07-07-2004, 06:53 PM
The cars you listed are from only Germany and Italy. Nothing to do with the rest of Europe.

The problem nowdays in classifying cars into continents much less countries is most companies are multinational.

e.g.

Are these cars American or British?

Vauxhall, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Lotus.

Is Nissan still Japanese or French since it's owned by Renault?

Like someone mentioned before, America and Japan are countries, but Europe is a diverse community.

And I love German cars but I don't believe they're responsible for all the technical advances from Europe. The French (owners of Renault and Perguet group) have nicely engineered cars too.

And if you start dividing Europe up into individual countries, you've got bigger problems.

German or British?

Mini Cooper, Bently Continental GT, Rolls Royce Phantom


German or Itallian?

Lamborghini

christophv
07-07-2004, 07:07 PM
the discussion wasn't about their current owners but about their origins in design and technology.
FSI, DSG, ABS, ESP and ASR are german btw. :)

The almighty turbocharger, a german innovation!

drunken monkey
07-07-2004, 07:31 PM
y'know, not many people in the world have high opinions of the cars from the u.s.

put it this way, how many outstanding (or even just good) cars can you name?
i for one keep hearing the same ones being mentioned (ford gt, z06, viper....)
now compare that to the number of different cars that these guys actually produce.
then apart from these supercars, all we hear is big talk of the cheap fast V8 or some such car (this is generalisation i know but not far from the truth).
there is no real innovation.
and then there's the question of car set-up.
the british press don't have that high an opinion of american chassis/suspension set-ups...

admittedly when three parent companies owns all of the 'little' brands, things do have a tendency to turn to shit.
it's kinda happening here with vw/audi/seat.....

you can say that we have better cars in europe cos we have a wider choice (of makes), so the manufacturers know that the ones they do sell here must be good or else it simply won't sell.

so in short, europe has more better cars but fewer cars in general.
whereas you have more cars but fewer good ones.

does that seem like a fair comment?

also, are you aware that here in europe, we tend to class cars by there separate nations as opposed to europe/u.s/japan.
we see differences between german, french, italian, british, swedish, japanese and american.

on a side not regading american technolgy....
what has america invented in the last 50/100 years to make engines/cars better?

v-tec?
turbo?
carburettors?
multiple valves?
disk brakes?
4wd?

as far as i'm aware, none of the above....
and your military goods aren't the best in the world either.
i'm not saying that they're bad,
just that they're not exactly the best.
(quote from one of the generals reviewing american products:
'my god, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that'..... this is true. i'll try to find the quote details)

somehow i still get the impression that the japanese engineers are probably among the best in the world and still lead in terms of technology....
in terms of cars, you only need look at honda's diesel engine to get an idea of how they do things.

christophv
07-07-2004, 07:55 PM
agree on the inventions but peeps, don't turn it into an US-hater- or America vs rest-thread :)

Joseph1082
07-07-2004, 09:35 PM
Lol... 2 things... one. if there is noe nation that has ever been an engineering rival to the US, it would have to be Germany, I'm sorry I didn't mention this before Christophv, you brought it up, but Europe was brought up as a whole. A lot of technologies you guys mention may indeed be American inventions, they just may have been put into Military Vehicles rather than automobiles.

drunken monkey
07-07-2004, 10:20 PM
A lot of technologies you guys mention may indeed be * inventions

um.....
how about we play a game of 'insert the name of your country where the * is'?

Joseph1082
07-08-2004, 01:23 AM
Ok, well, if you want me to get really damn picky, the modern automobile would not be the same if it wasn't for America... we invented the Steering wheel, and the electric starter, and I'm sure a host of other innovations.

crayzayjay
07-08-2004, 04:23 AM
Let's not forget that Henry Ford was responsible for bringing the automobile to the masses.

The US and cars is kind of like the English and football (soccer). More or less invented it, then got left way, way behind :grinno:

Jimster
07-08-2004, 04:40 AM
But I give the innovation prize to the French.

-Radial tyres (Citroen DS)
-Front Wheel Drive (Citroen 15CV)
-Hydraulic suspension (Citroen DS)
-The hatchback (Though that was arguably done by the Czechs)- Renault 16
-various other less important doo-dads, or ones that I was thinking about that evaded me.

The British however, did bring us Disc brakes (Jaguar XK120), Transverse mounting of an engine (Mini)- but not much else comes straight to mind, but given the enormousness of the BMC at one point, there is probably more.

The US, however has indeed innovated in it's own right- things like the Automatic transmission (1940 Oldsmobile), the moving production line, etc.

szczecinek
07-08-2004, 11:16 AM
i think some people may be missing a bigger picture....cars are more than the gadgets u put in them... and whoever said american cars are consumer orientated... WTF??? i dont live in US but i observe this... they are given the choice of ugly american cars that are heavy, boat handling, gas guzzling barges or DECENT imported cars for a lot more $$$...if u ask me americans get a raw deal. ... since i am a fan of jap and euro cars i will impart my opinion which may be a repeat of what some already said ... Jap: making the best of what you got... 206kw power limit, kei cars, emmisions etc, and u get a car that works well and is fairly cheap. put it this way... to find a fair rival for a japanese performance car u need to pay a lot more for a european car... thats just what i think ... euro: for performance cars euro take the approach of unlimited resources etc.. think of cars mainly made out of CF, the mclaren f1 gold plated engine... etc.. so yeah, thats just me :screwy:

drunken monkey
07-08-2004, 01:04 PM
no offence but um, steering wheel and electric starter....
is that the best you can come up with?
take a look at the few things that i mentioned earlier.
they're the kind of things i'm talking about....

christophv
07-08-2004, 02:30 PM
I think the main difference on technology between Europe and the US-

In Europe, it's not about how much power you get out of your engine, but how you get the power out of it, see? :icon16:

Sure, 7-litre V8s are durable like granite, but they're rather for trucks.

European engineers would never consider such large engines with maybe 200hp, like in the 60s.

I looked it up, the turbocharger, a pretty much revolutionary innovation, was constructed by a swiss engineer in 1905.

And radial tyres and steering wheels are important innovations - but they have nothing to do with "Relating cars to cultures"

blindside.AMG
07-08-2004, 05:54 PM
Some American inventions:

- The first car with an actual refrigeration system (A/C) was the 1940 model year Packard

- In 1929, American Paul Galvin, the head of Galvin Manufacturing Corporation, invented the first car radio.

- Buick introduced the first electric turn signals in 1938.

- Cruise control was first offered in the 1958 Chrysler Imperial, New Yorker and Windsor car models

- As far as I'm aware, I believe air bags are also an American invention

That's all I can get at the moment because I have to go fix broken Mercedes Benz. :icon16:

(quote from one of the generals reviewing american products:
'my god, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that'..... this is true. i'll try to find the quote details)

Please try harder to find more info on this, I'm dying to hear who said it and why it was said. :lol:

drunken monkey
07-08-2004, 06:59 PM
..that quote was taken from an article in new scientist....
i've got quite a few issues to dig through.....

Z_Fanatic
07-08-2004, 07:19 PM
How about Henry Ford assembling the first production car? Horseless buggies... man I tell you what, Americans and their crazy ideas.

:22yikes:

I wonder what happens when you change the air filter and put in a new exhaust on a horse.

Joseph1082
07-08-2004, 11:46 PM
Drunken Monkey... "is that the best you can come up with?" um... ok,
so you can go have a car with a sterring handle and a crank starter, ok, have a nice day.
I would bet good money America has had more innovations than any other country. I'm not trying to say this to be a D*ck, it would actually be rather logical consider the size and diversity of the country.

Jimster
07-09-2004, 01:00 AM
How about Henry Ford assembling the first production car? Horseless buggies... man I tell you what, Americans and their crazy ideas.

:22yikes:

I wonder what happens when you change the air filter and put in a new exhaust on a horse.
Actually, German inventor Karl Benz and his mate Daimler were the first to make cars.

Blindside- The car radio's back in those days were hopeless though- they drained batteries faster than Aussies drained a bar and they sounded like crap, though the concept is there. The first airbag was fitted to the Mercedes S Class in about 1970-odd, if I remember correctly.

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 01:20 AM
Was it a production car for the masses? I didn't think so.

http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cars/carhist.htm

Kurtdg19
07-09-2004, 01:33 AM
I thought this thread was talking about cars in their cultures? Now it has been turned into a "Whoever invented the most is the best" thread. Whats next? Are we going to argue about who are smarter in general? Seriously, does it really matter this much? Everyone still bleeds the same color at the end of the day.

Instead of badgering the technicalities, try to figure out the reasons fpr why their idea's are different. I think this is what MexSir was aiming for when he posted this thread.

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 01:41 AM
sure!

Japanese car - economical

American cars - redundant

European cars - snooty

Jimster
07-09-2004, 01:43 AM
A FIAT Panda is snooty?

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 01:48 AM
well with the exception of cardboard boxes of course. when I am talking about European cars, I usually imagine the usual - Rolce Royce/Bentley, Benz, Ferrari, BMW, VW, etc, etc.

GTStang
07-09-2004, 01:56 AM
American, Car and Automotive company firsts:

1909: Christie, in the US, mounts four-cylinder engine and gearbox transversely to drive front wheels.

1910: The first car with safety glass windows as standard equipment is the Cadillac.

1909:Delco, in the US, produces the first coil and distributor ignition system.

1912:Ford Model T: As an answer to the hand crank, Kettering in the US, integrated the starter -- adapted from the cash register motor -- into a complete ignition and electrical system, which included a battery recharged by a generator run by the engine and electric headlights to replace acetylene lamps

1914:The first production car to have all-independent suspension was the 1914 Cornelian, built by the Blood Brothers of Michigan

1915: Cadillac pioneers thermostatic control of the cooling system.

1916: The earliest automated wipers were on the 1916 Willys Knight (US)
Packard sells first production car with a V12 engine, the Twin Six.
Packard Twin Six (V12) model is first car to have alloy pistons.

1919: DMG builds the first supercharged car, 10/30 hp with a Knight engine.


There is many more bnut these are just some and this is not saying American car companies are so much better/greater. Just some1 asked what had the US done for cars in the last 100 years. Well here are just a few.

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 04:22 AM
A FIAT Panda is snooty?
You think he knows what a Panda is? :grinno:

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 04:24 AM
ummm... actually, yes

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 04:29 AM
Oh it's the exception, i get it. Ok, so that means, say, the Renault Clio is also snooty, right? And the 206? 307? Punto? Fabia? Gee, look at all these snooty European cars. Give me a break :rolleyes:

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 04:31 AM
well with the exception of cardboard boxes of course. when I am talking about European cars, I usually imagine the usual - Rolce Royce/Bentley, Benz, Ferrari, BMW, VW, etc, etc.

READ! How many of those cars you named actually made it across the pond and are widely abundant? Gee can't wait to pull next to a Panda tomorrow.

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 04:36 AM
Oh im sorry is this an American forum? Typical fucking attitude. They dont sell them over here so they dont count.

Do i give a flying crap what makes it across the pond? The cars i listed are among the best selling cars in Europe and highly representative of the typical European car. Not everyone drives a Roller or Jag. If you think Rolls, Bentleys and Ferraris are 'the usual', your knowledge of European cars = 0

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 04:52 AM
Garbage? A Clio 182 is one of the finest cars being produced today.

"Choosy of what cars you receive"? The sheer ignorance of that statement. How can i put this so you have a hope of understanding it? Certain European cars don't suit American roads. Most American cars don't suit European roads. Does this mean i should base my opinion of what American cars are by assessing the handful of Chryslers and Jeeps sold here? Think before you post.

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 05:04 AM
oh my, aren't you obsessed? this could go for on and on. and being "typical" American as I am, I'd think you'd have enough sense to stop first and realize it's a matter of opinion. so just to end the argument, I'll state: yes, it's my "ill-informed" opinion, since fortunately, I don't live in Europe and drive these hatchbacks. so why don't you take your Panda or Clio to the nearest autobahn, LOL, and calm yourself? okies?? sorry to hurt your feelings.

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 05:07 AM
Ok, I give up. You’re 100% right. Your understanding of European car culture is exceptionally accurate. Now if you’ll excuse me, Jimster's just arrived. He's just driven over from Italy, y'see, which is half an hour down the road, and I need to move my Carrera GT so I can make space for his Enzo on my driveway.

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 05:18 AM
No thanks, im more choosy over which cars i recycle :)

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 05:32 AM
Im glad we reached an understanding. :)

http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/superminis/renault_clio_1996/renault_clio_1996.jpg

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 05:37 AM
Isnt that's the old Clio there? designed well over a decade ago. Renault is among the safest car makers today, with a bunch of 5* Euro NCAP scorers. Not bad for a bunch of cardboard boxes :)

Z_Fanatic
07-09-2004, 05:45 AM
I only like their Spider.

crayzayjay
07-09-2004, 06:05 AM
Good looking, but that's about it. The Clio Williams (as in F1 team Williams) and the 172/182 are much better cars

drunken monkey
07-09-2004, 11:06 AM
renaultsport V6 anybody?

MexSiR
07-09-2004, 12:11 PM
This thread didnt turn into what I imagined. But whatever, still interesting to read.

Joseph1082
07-09-2004, 04:55 PM
BTW, not tryin to add flames, but the issue about "accross the pond" is an issue because in today's business world, the largest market is...USDM, so for companies it is a concern!
And... BTW, I know this isn't an "American Forum" but let's remember the founder is American, it's medium (Internet) is an american invention, and the language used is the American venacular.

Jimster
07-09-2004, 09:48 PM
That's a very nice picture, now go and fish the Clio, Megane, Vel Satis and Laguna ones from 1999+ out and tell me what the Star rating is.

Benelli5
07-09-2004, 10:00 PM
The only problem with cars in Europe is that they are driven by Europeans! j/k :biggrin:

and your military goods aren't the best in the world either.
i'm not saying that they're bad,
just that they're not exactly the best.
(quote from one of the generals reviewing american products:
'my god, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that'..... this is true. i'll try to find the quote details)


Just because some unnamed general made some comment on an unnamed piece of equipment doesnt justify a laughably ignorant comment like that. When it comes to military technology, there is not a country or continent that would be worthy of a second place to the US.

When it comes to cars, you'll get no argument from me. From design to engineering the best cars in the world are made overseas.

CrzyMR2T
07-09-2004, 10:55 PM
Drunken Monkey... "is that the best you can come up with?" um... ok,
so you can go have a car with a sterring handle and a crank starter, ok, have a nice day.
I would bet good money America has had more innovations than any other country. I'm not trying to say this to be a D*ck, it would actually be rather logical consider the size and diversity of the country.

i have to agree with this, look how diverse america is, we have people from all nations, and cultures here, which might be part of the reason for our powerful military, we share our knowledge more. although this doesnt reflect as much in our cars, it probably has something to do with our culture. anyways, the type of cars produced from each country probably has to do a lot with culture, lifestyle, and history, nothing to do with human superiority just cause you live in a certain country.

Joseph1082
07-10-2004, 03:00 AM
Yea... I'm not trying to put down anybody here, please don't get offended... but I am sick of hearing everyone and their mom rag on America... you don't have to agree w/ everything, but like it or not, this most likely is the best place in the world.

Neutrino
07-10-2004, 04:50 AM
it's medium (Internet) is an american invention,



Really? Have you even heard of CERN?

christophv
07-10-2004, 09:28 AM
this most likely is the best place in the world.

:shakehead

I watched this thread since I did my last post...

HOW ABOUT STOP WHININ WHOSE COUNTRY IS THE GREATEST AND POST USEFUL THINGS ABOUT
RELATING CAR TECHNOLOGY AND DESIGN TO THEIR INFRASTRUCTURAL AND NATIONAL ORIGINS?

:thumbsdow

Moppie
07-10-2004, 10:04 AM
but like it or not, this most likely is the best place in the world.


Not from where I’m sitting.



the founder is American,

No, actually Igor is eastern European.


an issue because in today's business world, the largest market is...USDM


Wrong again.
It’s actually the Asia pacific region where two thirds of the world’s population live. Remember India and China alone make up over two fifths of the worlds population, even if large proportions of their population are living in poverty, each on its own still has a larger number of people able to afford a new car than the whole of North America.

The US % wise is only a small market, it makes up only 2.5% of the worlds population. However, since it controls about 60% of the world’s wealth and resources its population are disproportionately wealthy and seem to be great targets for well designed marketing campaigns. (that means their gullible). This means they are the world’s leaders at spending lots of money on new things they don't need, and so buy more new vehicles every year than anybody else.
This makes them a great target market for manufactors, as they only make money off selling new cars, and being able to sell them at inflated prices thanks to good marketing.
Unfortunately America is extremely protective of its own interests, and so foreign manufactors are faced with heavy tariffs that drive most of their model ranges out of a competitive price range. When combined with a general American dislike for things made in Japan and Germany or anywhere "over there" America becomes a very hard market to break into.

Honda was the first to find away in when they took very base model cars, added a pile of cheap "extras" and rebranded them and sold them through an American owned company called "Acura". Acura is now just a name, the original company has been absorbed totally by Honda, and Hondas are now in fact made in America and exported back to Japan.
Toyota followed with the Lexus brand along with Nissan and the Infinity brand. All 3 now have US market only models that are not sold anywhere else in the world, and all 3 design and manufactor complete model ranges in the US for sales else where in the world.

The Local American manufactors take a very different approach to making and selling cars in the US.
Not worried by the high import tariffs and other restrictions, yet quite keenly aware of the US's high rate of consumerism (Americans like buying things) they build vehicles to suit. That is, they look flashy and have lots of gadgets, but underneath they are often cheaply engineered and assembled, sold at highly over inflated prices and many are designed to have a short operating life as buying a second hand car does not make the manufacturer any money, but buying another new one does.


The American obsession with the "SUV" is a classic example of the US manufactors exploiting the US public. Built on a cheap, simple and primitive ladder chassis most American SUV's are sold with at least a 100% mark up. They allow a huge variety of models to be built off of a single chassis design, and while they are all fitted with lots gimmicks that sound good in a marketing Boucher, or a TV add, things like NVH levels are neglected.
American cars on the other hand are often sold with very little mark up for the manufactor, and are cheap only so that they can compete with the excessive SUV market. A market driven by public ignorance fuelled by immoral marketing. The cars maybe well built and well engineered, but their image is tarnished by the low quality mass produced SUV's from the same manufactors.




Iv been lucky enough to have worked on and driven a very wide variety of cars from a very wide variety of manufactors. Everything from Lotus to Hyundai.
And there is not one generalisation I can make about a manufactor based on its geographical location.

Every manufactor has its own "ideal car" and its own philosophy on how to build, market and sell that "ideal car". These concepts come from the company’s history and the influences of its designers, engineers and senior management. Although the country of origin plays some part in this, it is much smaller than you might think.

The Japanese for example do not build small cars because they are small people living in a small country, they build small cars because most of the Japanese automotive industry started life building cars under licence to British manufactors, or using engines and parts built under licence to British manufactors (or by simply out right copying British designs).
These designs and British ideals where then further expanded upon, and improved and enhanced until they were so much better than the original that they helped lead to the collapse of the very industry that inspired and help create them. A collapse so bad that the many classic British names ended up in the hands of Japanese manufactors, where the process was reversed. Rover was given a new lease on life by building rebadged Hondas, then developing new models off of Honda platforms, and finally building its own models from scratch (Nissan took exactly the same path using Rover designs,) (this is even more ironic when you consider the fact that Honda is the ONLY Japanese manufactor to have designed EVERY single model in its range from scratch and on its own with out using anyone else’s designs.).


Why did the British build small cars?
Who knows! My guess is it has a lot to do with the Narrow roads and general conservative nature of British engineering, and the population in general during the 50s and 60s.

christophv
07-10-2004, 11:47 AM
yep, I also think it was connected with the reconstruction after war.
the upper worker class couldn't afford big cars, but there was a market.

the first cars in europe after war weren't meant as status symbols or sports cars, there was no space for such things. of course there was mercedes as the biggest luxury car maker in europe, but the main market was focused on small, functional cars.

even if I think america didn't produce real sports cars either, their suspension and aerodynamics were so different from every european car, especially in the 70s.

I think the design wasn't just a matter of taste-

this european 70s design represents elegance, avantgarde and smoothness
http://home.planetinternet.be/~rtshisto/posters/1972-renault-alpine-a110-1300.jpg

Same year, US design:
http://www.bluemoongear.com/FeatureCars/Rays72AMCJavelin.jpg

the AMC is also rather smooth, but it really transports a rough, brutal image, doesn't it? You can see the blunt power coming at you -

there was no european car that delivered such a thing, ever.

But don't forget, that Renault Alpine up there has a small 1.3l engine and drives over 130mph, and it features a superior handling.
It's a sports car, the AMC isn't.

Now, the powerful brutal image had it's purpose, of course.

Since american cars weren't very pricey, such muscle cars were meant to attract younger people, imho.
And be sure that every boy in europe dreamt of muscle cars, but the european market wasn't for young people, it was either for workers or for wealthy sports car drivers.

Joseph1082
07-10-2004, 02:45 PM
Ok, in case you didn't know, there is no East Asian domestic Markets yet... USDM is still the largest... that is one of the reason China emerging into capitalism is a threat to the US, cause it would shift the so-called "center" of the world to their hemisphere. but as of NOW there is no Chinese Domestic Market.
I'm sorry I've never heard of CERN, but I have heard of the INTERNET, which indeed was an American innovation... and whatever you say, most peple will agree this is still the best place to live.

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