racing with a automatic?


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mustange kiler
07-01-2004, 01:20 AM
hey im wondering if u can still race with a automatic?

emerge
07-01-2004, 12:16 PM
No. Automatics come with "racing prohibitors" in the ECU. The car detects that you're racing and shuts off the fuel supply. It's a new safety feature from Honda.

Beastiek2
07-01-2004, 04:13 PM
No. Automatics come with "racing prohibitors" in the ECU. The car detects that you're racing and shuts off the fuel supply. It's a new safety feature from Honda.

too funny !!

emerge
07-01-2004, 09:00 PM
Why the hell is this in Exterior anyways?

kcap122
07-02-2004, 03:16 PM
No. Automatics come with "racing prohibitors" in the ECU. The car detects that you're racing and shuts off the fuel supply. It's a new safety feature from Honda.


wait are you serious? thats insannnnne

SilverY2KCivic
07-02-2004, 07:47 PM
No. Automatics come with "racing prohibitors" in the ECU. The car detects that you're racing and shuts off the fuel supply. It's a new safety feature from Honda.

Damn, no wonder why my "attempted racing detected" light keeps blinding me from the dash, and here I thought maybe I just had some bad gas or something... Any way to disable this feature from the ECU short of busting a cap in it? :confused: :lol2:

emerge
07-02-2004, 10:05 PM
You can disconnect it by switching your battery terminals...

92'SiHatchBack
07-03-2004, 03:04 PM
thats funny

SilverY2KCivic
07-03-2004, 04:09 PM
You can disconnect it by switching your battery terminals...

Oh snap, it's always the easiest things. Thanks Emerge! :lol:

FREE mod everyone, LMAO! :cwm27:

1gspot
07-07-2004, 08:08 PM
wow not one post answered his question...Yes you can in the sense that u can try to get somewhere faster then something else...Just not very quickly. In my experience with my friends automatic the fastest way to go is to off the line have it in 1st then hold the brake it and rev to like 3k then when the light goes, drop off the brake as quickly as u can without ur tires spinning too much then shift up right before u redline, its still slow but prolly the quickest way u can go in an auto

kcap122
07-07-2004, 08:25 PM
jeez thats not a good idea. the automatic d1 and d2 are not meant to be shifted. i think there was another thread on this already, the gears are designed to give you torque in the snow and stuff, not for launches.

SilverY2KCivic
07-08-2004, 08:02 PM
jeez thats not a good idea. the automatic d1 and d2 are not meant to be shifted. i think there was another thread on this already, the gears are designed to give you torque in the snow and stuff, not for launches.

In a 6th gen Civic, you launch using D3, then when it hits 2nd, you put it in "2" and hold it till redline, then put it back into D3. The 6th gen auto Civic tranny doesn't have a "1" to shift into. "2" will start out the car in 2nd from a stop for added torque like kcap122 was refering to. But you wouldn't want to use it for a luanch as it'll bog you WAY down.

Autos are notably quicker off the line (but not nessacerily in general)than manual simply because you just gas it and go. No clutch to putz around with, and no shifter to have to move around. Just floor it and go.

If you want a faster auto, then invest in an aftermarket torque converter like the ones that ArtCarr sells, or Level10 or TCI has as well.

kicker1_solo
07-08-2004, 08:54 PM
wow not one post answered his question...Yes you can in the sense that u can try to get somewhere faster then something else...Just not very quickly. In my experience with my friends automatic the fastest way to go is to off the line have it in 1st then hold the brake it and rev to like 3k then when the light goes, drop off the brake as quickly as u can without ur tires spinning too much then shift up right before u redline, its still slow but prolly the quickest way u can go in an auto
Are you saying that autos are slow? I know many autos that would toast whatever you're running. And what you told him to do isn't such a bright idea. :rolleyes:

1gspot
07-18-2004, 09:34 PM
hell no im not saying autos are slow some race designed automatics own all. But when u talking about getting off the line quick a stock auto tranny is gunna get beat

kicker1_solo
07-19-2004, 12:25 AM
Of course a stock auto, a stock anything off the line is going to get beat. Using your money wisely on whatever you have, stick or auto, will win you races.

GScivic7
07-19-2004, 01:02 AM
Why the hell is this in Exterior anyways?
^^^^

eckoman_pdx
07-20-2004, 05:20 PM
Why the hell is this in Exterior anyways?


You know...I thought the same thing...and after 19 days...we're still waiting for an answer, lol.

H22AccordEx
07-21-2004, 02:30 AM
you lose more hp with an auto tho...i read that an auto loses roughly 30% of its power through drivetrain and a standard loses around 12%. If you have an 2 of the same exact cars and one is auto and the other is standard the standard will win every time unless they miss a gear.... :)

eckoman_pdx
07-22-2004, 02:14 PM
Also, the forgoten fact is you don't loose boost pressure in between gear shifts with an automatic like you do with a manual. With a stick, you of course loose you boost pressure in between shifts when you let up on the accelerator to shift.

With an automatic you never have to let up, and you don't loose boost pressure like you would with a sitck. This makes for less turbo lag.

H22AccordEx
07-22-2004, 06:01 PM
thats why if your racing you dont let off the gas..keep it to the floor and powershift :)

eckoman_pdx
07-22-2004, 07:19 PM
thats why if your racing you dont let off the gas..keep it to the floor and powershift :)

True, but if you don't shift that way (not all can) or if you have to drive the car on the street, then you really can't power shift. Of course, this thread isn't about driving on the street. Still, the point was, you don't have to worry with an auto. I am not saying auto trannys are better, I was just saying you don't loose boost presure in between shifts, no matter who the shift is done. With a stick, if for some reason you can't power shift, well...you'll loose boost.

Nothing huge, just a point no one mentioned.

SilverY2KCivic
07-22-2004, 09:26 PM
If you have an 2 of the same exact cars and one is auto and the other is standard the standard will win every time unless they miss a gear.... :)

Not true entirely. The Mercedes SLK, it has been proven that for some reason, the automatic model is quicker down the quarter than the 5-speed model. Mercedes really knows how to tweak their auto trannys. Don't believe me? AMG wouldn't stick an auto in EVERY SINGLE one of it's hopped up models if it wasn't as good as standard tranny would be. They have perfected getting their trannys to shift as quick if not quicker than one could shift a manual. It's all about knowing how to tune them correctly. :cool:

H22AccordEx
07-23-2004, 12:07 AM
i never said that autos shift slower than standards...autos are def. better at the track thats why a lot of drag cars are autos because they're more consistant. I was just saying that 9 times out of 10 two of the same cars if one is auto and the other is standard then the standard is going to win. maybe with the acception of the mercedes...

eckoman_pdx
07-23-2004, 01:15 AM
i never said that autos shift slower than standards...autos are def. better at the track thats why a lot of drag cars are autos because they're more consistant. I was just saying that 9 times out of 10 two of the same cars if one is auto and the other is standard then the standard is going to win. maybe with the acception of the mercedes...


That's because most auto tranny's shift at points not the optimum points for speed and power. If you put in a shift kit and build the tranny, an auto can rule. A human can't outshift a computer, it's just the computers arn't always programed stock to shift for power and speed. The Mercedes SLK is, but most stock cars arn't.

Have level ten build your auto and put in a shift kit, and you'll see not all auto's suck. It's just stock, MOST auto trannys are ment for gas mileage and the "happy medium" so to speak, ment for the consumer who wants easy of use. Now the SLK is hardly want I would call a "stock car" by comparision, even if it is. Most auto's just arn't built up by the oem's to optimuize performance is all. If you build one to optumize performance, it can kill. It will never miss a shift, won't loose boost between shift, and will shift and the optimum point even time, not to soon or late. Very perdictable.

Thats probably why mecredes chose to build up an auto tranny and put it in the SLK...when built for power and speed, auto's arn't so bad. If fact, as silvery2k said, they can be better. Level 10 performance can build you an auto tranny and put in a shift kit for a honda or any other car so someone who wants this, though it won't be cheap.

H22AccordEx
07-23-2004, 01:23 AM
Yeah but you also dont have as much control over the car if its an automatic. I also wasn't talking about putting shift kits in cars i was saying a 2 of the same cars "stock". If you wanted to modify the auto then you mine as well modify the standard and see the results.

eckoman_pdx
07-23-2004, 01:28 AM
Yeah but you also dont have as much control over the car if its an automatic. I also wasn't talking about putting shift kits in cars i was saying a 2 of the same cars "stock". If you wanted to modify the auto then you mine as well modify the standard and see the results.

On the track an auto is more perdictable, it will NEVER miss a shift, plus a human simply can not outshift a computer. A shift kit and a built up auto is essentially what an SLK has, and it's quikcer than their 5-speed.

If a built up stick where so much better, the WRC teams and top fuel draggers would all race built manaul trannys and and not built autos. I was making a point, the same one SilverY2Kcivic made. Not all autos stuck. Just becuase it's an auto doesn't make it bad, it's how it wass built, OEM or otherwise.

H22AccordEx
07-23-2004, 04:36 AM
Well if my car had 3000hp then I wouldn't be complaining that its an automatic. They use autos because they are more likely to post the same 1/4 mile time after time. I'm not saying all autos are bad either im just saying IMOP I would take a standard over an automatic any day.

icE_x
07-23-2004, 08:20 AM
i like automatics cuz i can eat my food and drive at the same time

mason_RsX
07-23-2004, 08:39 AM
Autos are obviously faster shifters and even the best drivers can only come close to shifting as well in a manual. Mercedes has been putting a ton of work into their tranny's or else the wouldn't have developed the 7speed auto. Also doesn't an automatic fight constantly to give you fuel economy over speed? And has anybody heard of a neutral drop? I have seen people do it and its painful to see, destroys the auto, but it looks like it gives decent acceleration off the line if done right

H22AccordEx
07-23-2004, 02:09 PM
no one said that autos didn't shift faster, autos also get worse gas milage than standards. Put a 7 speed manual in a car and i bet it will be just as fast because the gear ratios will be setup for a 7 speed manual. Also if your gonna put it in neutral and rev the shit out of it then you can get the same results by powershifting a standard. And can anyone else think of a car besides "mercedes" that has a faster auto than a manual?

SilverY2KCivic
07-23-2004, 07:09 PM
Stock for stock, standard will rule over auto 90% of the time.

Look at most race cars, Indy and IRL both still use manuals, given they are clutchless, but they still HAVE to shift them manaually via a sequential type transmission. F1 cars have the infamous paddle shifter, but are still manual in the sense you have to shift yourself. I can't tell you if these are considered true manuals for any of those cars, they would point to sequential autos in my book, sans the Porsche "TipTronic" shifter system. NASCARS still use 5-speed manual trannies, I know you all have seen their crude looking shifters. ;) Pro Stock dragsters are manual, they have a lever for EACH individual gear that they deperess through the run to enguage each gear. I'm not sure how top-fuelers shift...

So unless you have a re-programmed ECU and/or tranny computer for an auto, manual will still prevale in terms of userability and shift points. But autos can be manipulated even in stock form, to shift at better points if you do the shifting yourself, though it can be hard on the tranny and torque converter. Auto is still the most consistant, and more reliable. Yes it has decreased fuel economy, but not by much, and that's only because of how it shifts as well as the drivetrain power loss, so it requires slightly more power to move the car.

As for faster than standard autos... I know the Porsche ones are slower by a couple tenths, I think Ferrari has equal to manual, automatics. BMW might, but I doubt it since the M3 and M5 models or ANY of the M-series cars they make, ONLY come as manual.

SilverY2KCivic
07-23-2004, 07:12 PM
So far this thread is becoming a great argument and info packed thread I feel, free of flamage. If we can keep it up that way, I just may have to sticky this for others the find easily. :)

H22AccordEx
07-23-2004, 07:31 PM
lol..good call

eckoman_pdx
07-24-2004, 04:13 AM
So far this thread is becoming a great argument and info packed thread I feel, free of flamage. If we can keep it up that way, I just may have to sticky this for others the find easily. :)

That's a good idea actually. On a side note, it's rather rare to see a fun polite arguement here at AF free from flamage. We should all give ourselves a pat on the back, lol.

SilverY2KCivic
07-24-2004, 03:39 PM
*pat pat* :icon16:

Now back to business. :uhoh:

eckoman_pdx
07-25-2004, 08:47 PM
*pat pat* :icon16:

Now back to business. :uhoh:

LOL...

SilverY2KCivic
07-25-2004, 11:00 PM
Now I'd like someone to post up in here that has GOTTEN an aftermarket T/C installed into their auto tranny (i.e. Level-10, TCI, Artcarr, etc...) that can tell us exactly if and how much it improved their performance by.

eckoman_pdx
07-26-2004, 12:13 AM
Now I'd like someone to post up in here that has GOTTEN an aftermarket T/C installed into their auto tranny (i.e. Level-10, TCI, Artcarr, etc...) that can tell us exactly if and how much it improved their performance by.

I know a lot of the Mustang guys with auto's install torque convertors in the auto trannys and see performance increases, though I can't say by how much off the top of my head.

I agree though, anyone who has already done any of this, please post up what you did and how it improved perfomance. I know I plan to have level-10 build up my tranny at some point, but that really doesn't help us much right now, lol.

grimple1
07-28-2004, 05:11 AM
well what the aftermarket torque convertors do is puts them into their powerband quicker. all autos have torque convertors (by the way)

say your powerband starts around 3.5k rpms. you'd want to match a torque convertor with that powerband. you'd take out the (hypothetically) 2600rpm stock torque convertor and install a convertor that is fully engaged at say 3200 (or 3k). that means that by the time you get on the upward curve heading into your powerband, the drivetrain and the transmission are fully engaged.

say you took that same car with the 3500 rpm powerband and left the stock convertor in it. well at 2600rpm that car would be fully engaged leaving you well shy of your powerband (3500rpm) thus effecting your 1/4 times.


now i know what you're saying well geez that's pretty easy.. you just get a convertor that places you nicely into the powerband... of course nothing is easy. the higher the stall on the torque convertor (the rpm in which it is fully engaged) the less mph you theoretically have b/c the transmission to drivetrain is engaged for a less amount of time. for example: lets say the stock convertor is fully engaged at 2600 rpms and lets say that (i'm just pulling numbers outta my arse but you should get the picture) in a quater mile of 14.5 seconds that torque convertor is fully engaged at around 2.1 seconds of that 1/4 time. now the 3200 rmp torque convertor wouldn't be engaged until a higher rpm. that car wouldn't be fully engaged until 2.9 seconds into the 1/4 time thus the top speed at the finish line would be effected.

now of course this is just an over simplification of the setup.. there's a million things that can make that car with a 3200 rpm convertor have faster top mph speeds then the 2600 rpm convertor (suspension, turbo.. turbo size, cam, etc..)



having said that, i'd race (drag race) with autos for consitancy. stick on road (curves and crap) type racing.... and give me an auto as a daily driver. Heck, i like to eat and drive too!

Auto_newb
08-03-2004, 04:59 PM
If a built up stick where so much better, the WRC teams and top fuel draggers would all race built manaul trannys and and not built autos. I was making a point, the same one SilverY2Kcivic made. Not all autos stuck. Just becuase it's an auto doesn't make it bad, it's how it wass built, OEM or otherwise.

WRC teams use built autos?!!

Kven
08-22-2004, 03:32 AM
no a 7 speed manual will be slower because the driver will have to go through more gears and a human cant shift as fast as a machine. think about drag spec muscle cars....they have like 3-speed auto transmissions and such. heard of B&M? they make parts for auto trannys for drag racing.

93Legend
09-13-2004, 09:01 PM
well i race with a 93 legend LS, auto, dose this have a race sensor?, cause if it dose, i got to 135mph and still no shut off
V6 3.2 Lt 230hp

sfc711
09-13-2004, 09:41 PM
Of course a stock auto, a stock anything off the line is going to get beat. Using your money wisely on whatever you have, stick or auto, will win you races.
I have three auto Conquest TSI's and I have not been defeated yet by anything yet. I smoked a 2003 Carrera and a 2002 Vette LT1. Its like he said put your money in mods that work. I have a 1996 Prelude non VTECH SOHC and I wanted to mod it but since it is going to be my 17yo daughter I will only do a little. People from this site has been wonderful on the suggestions they have given me and it is looking great. I will post befor pics and after when it is finished. She saw the new Dark Amethyst color that Dodge has on its 05 vehicles and selected that color. Thanks, Again

CBFryman
09-18-2004, 02:17 PM
On the track an auto is more perdictable, it will NEVER miss a shift, plus a human simply can not outshift a computer. A shift kit and a built up auto is essentially what an SLK has, and it's quikcer than their 5-speed.

If a built up stick where so much better, the WRC teams and top fuel draggers would all race built manaul trannys and and not built autos. I was making a point, the same one SilverY2Kcivic made. Not all autos stuck. Just becuase it's an auto doesn't make it bad, it's how it wass built, OEM or otherwise.

what are yo utalking about...top fule dragsters dont even use trannies...the rear end is the trannie...when you have 6000hp at the wheels and are only traveling for 4-5 seconds gears are pointless... this is why drag racing is an engine tuners sport and not a drivers sport...all the driver has to have is a lead foot and good reaction....

bjdm151
09-20-2004, 06:06 PM
Not that any body is going to read this because this thread has gone on too long and started off with bad information, but yea you can make an auto go faster than a manual down a straight line, do you see top fuel dragsters with a clutch pedal???????and i've never heard of an automatic (except that worn out POS you're still driving) miss a shift. but when turning left right whatever (road course) you don't have the control over rpm range (putting it where the power is) try holding your auto at 6k in first gear through a corner, ain't gonna happen, the mechanics of an automatic transmission will take over and shift for you.

Kven
09-20-2004, 10:26 PM
technically top fuel dragsters dont have a transmission at all, its just a clutch(centrifugal) and a rear differential. the reason is they have so much torque they dont need gears; which is the main purpose of the tranission, to multiple torque to help the car get going.

luvinimports
09-22-2004, 09:09 PM
Actually a number of BMW's semi-autos the M3's and the M3 CSL and im not sure but i belive the new V-10 M5 will as well, ferrari's F1 system is actually faster thats why the new 575's and Enzo only come in that form also the 612 (does come in manual) use the F1 technolgy, and in a motortred issue i have testing the Lamborghini Murchelago said it needed a Squ. Trans. because car makers like that tune the automatics for a racing purpose and is techniquly perfected because its a computer program, a computer always downshifts perfects up shifts perfect so on and so fourth

joeblowme
09-30-2004, 11:29 AM
Get yourself a manual car dummy! don't waste your time with that automatic car.

GritMaster
09-30-2004, 08:39 PM
Not that any body is going to read this because this thread has gone on too long and started off with bad information, but yea you can make an auto go faster than a manual down a straight line, do you see top fuel dragsters with a clutch pedal???????and i've never heard of an automatic (except that worn out POS you're still driving) miss a shift. but when turning left right whatever (road course) you don't have the control over rpm range (putting it where the power is) try holding your auto at 6k in first gear through a corner, ain't gonna happen, the mechanics of an automatic transmission will take over and shift for you.



Does the WRC count as a road course with curves etc? they use auto trannys with a manual override.

(sorry for the 10 day after reply :P)

bjdm151
10-01-2004, 11:56 AM
Yea the WRC is considered a road course. I'm not sure if they are actualy using automatics or sequential manuals,But if they are automatic transmisions they still have control over gear selection.

Kven
10-01-2004, 12:18 PM
they use manual transmissions. they are paddle-shift(behind steering wheel) transmissions so you dont see them reaching down for a gear lever.

luvinimports
10-01-2004, 05:11 PM
some WRC cars such as the WRX use the behind the sterring wheel paddel change in a squ. manual transmission

the 206's use a squ manual transmission with a bumpstick

and i forget what car i saw that was useing just a stright up automatic transmission

i think as far as rally is concerened itd be the only type of driving where i'd perfer a squ. or automatic transmission.......... as well if i was f1 racing : )

MIKE!
10-09-2004, 10:10 PM
i have an auto, and i all out SMOKED an 02 civic with AEM cold air intake. thats a standard.. and all ive done to my car is a cold air intake..(ebay style) and he didnt miss a shift either

i dunno... maybe i was lucky


is nutral popin an auto bad for the tranny?

luvinimports
10-11-2004, 10:48 PM
for some reason i dont see that happenin
never driven an 02 but i just find that hard to belive

MIKE!
10-13-2004, 11:52 AM
yea it was really hard for me to believe too. I drove his 02 civic... and it really doesnt have much torque...at all!... it gets pretty good high end responce but thats from the AEM and the MAGNAFLOW system hes got on it. but all i needed to beat him was to get off the line quicker.. and that i did.

02 civics are really nice tho...

luvinimports
10-13-2004, 07:55 PM
*shurgs* who knows, good kill

can this guy drive? because a good driver can make up for the tourqe loss off the line if they know what there doing

nubtuner
10-19-2004, 05:27 PM
hey, from what i've read here tuned autos are better for drags, and manny's for road tracks.

But what about the shift-matics(pretty sure that's what they're called)?
Such as ones in the acura tl
Are these any different at all from regular auto's, or do they just have a fancy name and no difference in functionality?
Would these types of setups offer a sort of middle ground between the two?

drdisque
10-19-2004, 05:32 PM
ya, they're just regular automatics with an electronic override. You actually run slower in the 1/4 mile if you try to shift them yourself.

MIKE!
10-21-2004, 06:52 PM
yea, i heard the same thing about the shift o matic or w/e


but seriously ... is neutral droppin(rev in neutral, then drop it into drive for a lil tire smokin action) bad for the tranny? like really bad?

thecackster
10-25-2004, 12:45 AM
ya the 3g mitsubishi eclipses have a (sports-tronic) shifter in them, i think thats what it is called, i think that drop down and shift thing screws your tranny bad, i used to do that in my 93' T-bird and it is so shitty now, not sure if thats why but i did it and now it's crap

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