22RE timing chain


walstib7
06-29-2004, 05:25 PM
Hello,
I drive a 91 toyota pickup with 206,000 miles. At 158,000 my timing chain skiped because the plastic guides broke and I had my engine rebuilt. Recently I had been hearing a pinging noise in my engine in the lower gears when I was not going fast. It would dissapear when in fourth or fith gear or so it appeared. When I would be at a stop my idle would change from high to low and back, but never died. One day the pinging got louder and when was on my commute home my acceleration seemed to hesitate a little. I pulled over checked oil and it was fine. As I started again experienced noticeble power hesitation. I thought the sound sounded like electrical arching, or like a rocker arm, but I am not experienced. It did not sound similar to my last chain when it was loose. I took the truck in and he says its my timing chain. It seems fishy to me cause its only got 50,000 miles on it. He also said I needed a new timing cover. When I drove the car to his shop at first I could not feel the hesitation then as I kept driving I could. Could the timing chain cause all these symptoms. I thought it would of been something like a bad spark plug wire and I kick myself now for not testing my own spak plug wires before bringing it in. Any help would be appreciated...I am just trying to settle my mind from feeling like I am being scammed by the mechanic.

papason
07-06-2004, 06:43 PM
I know how you fell. Mine 94" is in the shop getting the timeing chain replaced. What is he charging you?

MyTOY
10-05-2004, 11:15 AM
I am also curious about the diagnosis and cost of the
chain/guides replacement. I have a rattlesnake noise
under my hood and from all I've read, I suspect the guides.
Even though I only have 83,000 on my 95 22RE. The cost
of the kit itself (around 200 bananas) seems reasonable but
I've researched the repair procedure and I'm borderline
on doing it myself just cause it's my only ride. I've seen alot
of different guesses on the cost to replace. From 300 to 1200
bucks. Either way, I'll probably will have to risk waiting till end of
year to take the time off to fix or pay for. I hope it will hold out,
I dumped alot of $ making it look perfect before I realized the
mech. probs.

walstib7
10-05-2004, 11:31 AM
Hello,
I had my timing chain replaced two months ago..and it was the guides, again. I dont see any problem waiting until you have the money, but thats what i did and after many many months the chain had nearly ate its way through the timing chain cover, which is not a cheap part. If it pierces the cover your oil and water could mix and will cause much more damage. My truck was quoted at 980 dollars without the cover and I talked him down to around 750 dollars because I do not have air conditioning..you know less stuff to deal with equating to less labor. He worked with me, but not until I confronted him on the matter. They will take what they can get.
I also heard stories of it costing between 200 and 300 dollars, but I think that is only if the chain broke, but chains rarely brake and more than likely its the guides. It is a distinct knocking noise and 22RE are famous for guides braking. Sorry, but it is expensive. Good Luck!

MyTOY
10-05-2004, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the input. I feel a little better.

xtoyotacorex
10-05-2004, 04:13 PM
I highly doubt it's your chain, or your guides, i'd look into other things first. A bad chain wont give you a inconsistent idle, or funky acceleration. Go to a different mechanic, and don't mention the timing chain and I bet he will say something ealse.

newocj
11-24-2004, 09:59 PM
I highly doubt it's your chain, or your guides, i'd look into other things first. A bad chain wont give you a inconsistent idle, or funky acceleration. Go to a different mechanic, and don't mention the timing chain and I bet he will say something ealse.

What I found with my 94 4-wheel drive pickup; it was not the chain or the guides, but the tensioner. Something is happening to the oil pressure causing the chain to loosen and eat the guide away, not sure but could be the oil pump not keeping the pressure up. Same thing happened to three trucks in my family, Paid once to fix mine then did it myself twice.

kuto
11-25-2004, 12:03 PM
how come u guys pay soo much for a timming job....i live in dominica and i only paid 150 EC dollars or 55 US dollars....these guys are really ripoff....but he didnt replace my chain since he couldnt find one here;onlt the guides and tensioner...i found one so i'll be doing that job again but with someone else

newocj
11-25-2004, 02:15 PM
how come u guys pay soo much for a timming job....i live in dominica and i only paid 150 EC dollars or 55 US dollars....these guys are really ripoff....but he didnt replace my chain since he couldnt find one here;onlt the guides and tensioner...i found one so i'll be doing that job again but with someone else

We either pay what they charge or do it ourselves which is why I do my own, but it still cost over 100 dollars for parts if you don't need a cover; then that part is over 200 dollars

fast_freddy67
11-27-2004, 10:17 AM
Here's the timing chain cover I use for around $80...

Pioneer PN 500 220 (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/hm-performance/piticofor19t1.html)

There is an aftermarket timing chain kit with steel guides too... It was $75. I don't have the number here, but I'll get it if anyone is interested.

I'm paying $200 in parts for my DIY fix. (and couple hours of dumping deisel through the motor and oil pan to get rid of the oil/antifreeze mixture, NASTY!)

mooseketer
12-02-2004, 10:36 AM
We had the same timing change problem. The plastic Timing chain guide had broken off long ago and the timing chain ate through it's cover into the water pump area. This caused the water to go into the oil. (your oil level will be rising) We purchased all the necessary timing parts through http://www.partsdinosaur.com/. Real good prices. *******Don't forget to clean out the oil pan. ******* For this you will need to drop the part of the front end and remove a cross member or the oil pan won't come out. However, after that was fixed, (we didn't clean the oil pan, just changed the oil), we through a bearing. Now I don't know if the bearing was because of age (425,000 miles on the engine) or if the radiator sealents that we added prior to this went into the oil and cause the damage, or both but we are now rebuilding the engine. Live and learn. Good luck with yours.

Electraglide71
11-11-2005, 07:22 AM
Hey guys, I'm curious. In this discussion about the timing chain and the guide, I'm wondering...is this timing chain guide made out of a light blue or greenish plastic? The reason I ask is, I had to replace an oil pump seal, this removing the oil pan. Laying in the pan were several pieces of plastic, that was obviously once a part. I discarded them as I cleaned the oil pan, never being able to identify what they went to. I'm currently in the process of chasing down a coolant leak. Already replaced a head gasket, but what I've run into sounds like maybe this broken guide has caused my timing chain to rub a hole in the timing chain cover. As it went, my original head gasket looked fine when I replaced it, but I already had the engine apart. If you could, repost and let me know a little more about what you experienced with this timing chain guide. I appreciate it. Might give me a little more insight as to what to do next on my truck. Thanks guys.

Electraglide

fast_freddy67
11-11-2005, 08:46 AM
Electraglide71,

I believe what you found in your oil pan was the chain guide. If youre loosing antifreeze into the oil, it is likely from the timing chain cover. Somewhere in these forums I have a post that included the part numbers for the timingchain set and timing chain cover. The timing chain set has a steel or reenforced guide. There is a picture of my leaky cover at FastFreddy.net (http://www.fastfreddy.net)

Electraglide71
11-11-2005, 09:09 AM
Hey Fast Freddy, I appreciate your response. Even though I've already replaced the head gasket on my truck, the original looked fine. And the more I read about this particular problem, the more I think this is my problem. Let me ask you...with that kind of wear on the timing chain cover, is the hole big enough that the timing chain cover needs to be replaced? OR, is it a wear hole small enough that it could be patched with a good steel epoxy from the inside? And I was wondering about a new guide going on this, and what would prevent this from happening again. Well, you answered that by telling me a steel guide would cure that problem. Another thing...I hate to take the cylinder head off this truck again, investing in the gasket kit. When you did your job, is there any way to replace/repair the timing chain cover and replace the timing chain at the same time without the head having to come back off? If need be, I'll do it. But, if I could avoid the removal of the intake manifold assembly from the head again, that is one big pain I really don't wanna face. Everything else in repairs I've done before, so at least I can do all of this myself. All of the other Toyota trucks I had, I never ran into this problem. Do you know if they used a steel guide on the older 20R's? Once again, thanks for your response. After this two week problem, I'm at least starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel to solve it.

fast_freddy67
11-11-2005, 09:33 PM
Electraglide,

I found that post in aonther thread that has links to the parts and two links for instructions for the Tchain cover r&r without head removal.

92 22re engine... (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2505671#post2505671)

Read up a couple of posts and you can see my first post to that guy.

The hole in your Tchain cover is small, but on the high pressure side of the water pump. I just replaced mine to avoid having a patch fail and redoing everything.

Last time I was looking for these parts I couldnt find the steel guide by its self, only in the Tchain kit that is linked in that other post. That chain is suposed to be replaced at 150k or 200k anyway. I did hear of a junkyard fix. An older 22r had a double chain and a steel guide, but that chain would likely be streched out of limits anyway.

Read my other post, I think the links are still good.

Electraglide71
11-12-2005, 01:25 AM
Hey Freddy, I actually spent a lot of the day checking for parts, and doing a lot of research on this topic. Wasn't until I found a few parts sites that I found out what a fairly common problem this is, but nothing you're going to find in the troubleshooting section of any Toyota manual. I did find your link for the timing set from JC Whitney. Looks like a really good kit for the money. My biggest problem is my truck's an '84 model, and they used two different timing kits and timing covers that year for the exact same 22R. And they're not good at specifying which is kit if for pre-August and post-August of '84. But, '84 was the apparently the magic year they started using the plastic chain guides, just because they were cheaper to manufacture. Did locate a new cover for a good price, so this venture isn't going to cost me a ton of money to do. Plus, nice to finally figure out what was wrong with this thing, and now knowing it's not something more serious with the engine. Anyways, I appreciate all the help and info. If anyone else out there has an '84 model and run into the same problem in the parts differentiation, by the time I'm done with this, I'll probably have all th parts number for both 22R's for that year. So, contact me. And I'll let y'all know how this all turns out, but I'm not too worried at this point. Just relieved. Thanks again, Freddy. Y'all have a great weekend.

Brian R.
11-14-2005, 02:59 PM
Electraglide71 - Please post the information you get on part numbers here if you have a chance...

fast_freddy67
11-14-2005, 07:34 PM
I found 2 places that explains the r&r procedure very well, I like the first. The only thing they dont cover, is getting rid of the oil/anti-freeze mixture. Mine had 3 gallons of the goo. (I bought my truck non-running) I soaked it down several times by pouring 3 gallons of deisel through the engine, the last gallon directly through the oil pan.

Toyota 22R Timing Chain Replacement (http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/timingchain/)

Timing Chain Replacement Instructions (http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/TimingChain.shtml)

The after market timing chain cover I used is Pioneer Products PN 500220 (http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?sourcepage=SEARCHRESULTS&mfrcode=PIO&mfrpartnumber=500220). I got mine from Schucks, I can't remember all the names this company uses.

While you're there, don't forget the valve cover gasket kit! Oil, filter, anti-freeze, etc...

I found several places for timing chain sets. You want one with a steel chain guide. The one I found is from Top Line. I got mine from a local machine shop for around $70. I also found this at JC Whitney (http://www.jcwhitney.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Item?storeId=10101&Pr=p_CATENTRY_ID%3A400896&mediaCode=ZX&productId=2005313&appId=400896&catalogId=10101)

The last time I wrote this all out, mooseketer (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=229817) recomended a web site called partsdinosaur.com (http://www.partsdinosaur.com/). I checked it out and found everything mentioned above. The timing chain cover (PN 80000 -ITM) (http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product31.html), timing chain kit (PN TS11811HD -PCI) (http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product0.html) and anything else (http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/page13.html) one might need for this fix.

Electraglide71
11-15-2005, 01:39 PM
Hey Brian, Fast Freddy, and Gang,

Yeah Brian, when it's all done, I'll have some parts numbers I tracked down that I can certainly post. Might be helpful to some others with '84 and earlier models. '84 was the transitional year, so that's been the biggest pain with me.
Freddy, thanks for posting all of the info. I FINALLY have all of my parts, and I'm getting ready to go out, and get this sucker back together. I'll see if I can post a pic, but I can show all of you exactly where the chain rubbed through the inside of my cover to cause the hole. And yeah...anyone else doing this project in the future will definitely want to go with STEEL or METAL timing chain guides. Freddy, luckily I don't have near the clean up you do, as everything in my engine is fresh, chemical wise. I will have to do some cleaning with some deisel, but there's a lot I've flushed out, and a lot I'll blow out of the head with a compressor. Will make a mess, but worth getting all the white, milky crap out of there.
Thanks again for the responses, folks. I'll post again when I'm all done. I'll have some parts numbers, which you'll need if you have an '84. But, also keep the info Freddy posted onhand. He has some of the same info I found. Definitely good to save, or have on your computer, should any of you be facing this dilemma in the future. Trust me....you won't find ANYTHING about THIS particular problem in any troubleshooting section in ANY Toyota repair manual. After all, I had done a complete head gasket repair job on my truck before all of this about the timing cover came about. And head gasket jobs aren't fun at all. Not too expensive to do by yourself, but certainly not fun. Okay, think I'm gonna get to work and get that rig of mine back up and running. Thanks again, y'all, and I'll be in touch. Have a good one. My timing is impeccable, as I'm about to start this job with a good ol cold front blowing through all of Texas. Lucky me!

Brian R.
11-15-2005, 02:56 PM
Great - Thanks alot. Good luck and take your time - do it right...

Add your comment to this topic!