Is Toyota Boring?

What happend to Toyota and performance? The two words don't seem to go together anymore. Mitsubishi has the EVO, Nissan has the 350Z, Mazda has the RX-8, Honda has the NSX and S2000, Subaru has the STI, and Toyota has the... How can a company that created such a well built and performance monster called the Supra Twin Turbo not offer anything with aspiring performance? Sure there is the MR2 Spyder, nice handling, quality braking, and SLOW. Matrix XRS and Corolla XRS, both are SLOW. I say these cars are slow because many cars in their class will show them tail lights any day and any night. Even fixing these cars up is a hassle, there is TRD, but after that there isn't much. I'm sure Toyota is doing just fine, selling it's family friendly and modest performance cars. When many people think of Toyota, they think of reliability and quality, but when I think of Toyota, I think of boring. How does Toyota match up performance wise with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, and Subaru?

How does Toyota match up performance wise with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, and Subaru?

Right now, it is simple, they don't. I agree Toyota is building family oriented cars that are slow and boring. They have the new Scion division, which seems to be like Saturn, tailored to making ugly cars for college students. However, they do have a concept car that is by far one of the BEST looking cars I've ever seen. Let's hope it makes it to production as the next Supra. For reference I saw the picture in the back of the latest issue of Sport Compact Car.

This has been a problem for quite a while, yet it doesn't really seem to bother them. They're selling more than enough Camrys, Priuses, and 4Runners to make up for the lack of a sports car.

Toyota is really a company completely focused on profit. If it wont make them money, they wont make it. You could say this about any car company but Toyota stands out above the rest. In today's car market almost every company has a sports car out and has a background or a heritage of making sports cars.

Nissan has the Z cars that have been around longer then any other Japanese sports car.

Mazda has the Rotary RX cars

Mitsubishi and Subaru have their street legal rally cars

Honda has the S2k which is new, but still the best convert on the market.

Ford has the Mustang which has been around forever

You get the picture

There are so many sports cars on the market right now that Toyota doesnt have the competitive edge that they have in the family car/suv market. They stopped selling the Supra in America partly because they werent making enough of a profit to justify it.

Another problem toyota has going for it is almost all of their cars are based on the Camry/Corolla platform. Which is great for cheap sedans, but terrible for a sports car. The also dont have an engine out capable of competing on the same level as the 350Z or the S2000 and the rest of the competition. Toyota would need to invest huge amounts of money to create a completely origional car, with a brand new engine and a brand new body. I'd really like to see them do this, but I have my doubts.

True what he said.

Dont forget, Honda has the Integra Type R, Civic Type R, NSX also.

Nissan has the G35-Skyline

Oh, and YES.
Toyotas are ugly, boring, and not fast.

Nissan and Honda are the best jap companies.

toyota has the altezza...

Oh, and YES.
Toyotas are ugly, boring, and not fast.

Nissan and Honda are the best jap companies.

wtf? toyotas are not fast??? i guess supras are slow right.... :screwy:
can an s2000 go over 200mhp?

wtf? toyotas are not fast??? i guess supras are slow right.... :screwy:
can an s2000 go over 200mhp?

Well, neither can a Supra, and we're talking about current cars. :rolleyes:

Yes. Even when it comes to family sedans, Toyota is the most boring.

Mazda probably has the sportiest handling/looking cars, offering the ~150hp/220hp 6 and the ~150hp 3.

Nissan's got bragging rights for power with the 175hp/250hp Altima and 126hp/175hp Sentra. This was still the case back in 2000, with the 222hp Maxima and a Sentra with up to 140hp.

Even Honda has an Accord with ~160/240hp, and a Civic with a not-quite-decent 127hp. The anemic Civic puts the duo just over to the side of being boring, imho.

Toyota scrapes the barrel with a ~150/200hp Camry. The Corolla is so boring, I can't remember how much power any of them have, except for the new ~170hp XRS. :eek7:

Oh, and another little detail. The larger sedans from Mazda, Nissan, and even Honda have 17s available, Nissan being the earliest to do so back in 2000. Mazda and Nissan offer sport editions, with a stiffer suspension as well. Toyota think they can slap some black badges on, add some 16s and have a Camry sport. It's pathetic. :loser:

I'll always be a Nissan fan, but I miss the glory days of Toyota's bulletproof sports cars. At the very least, they made good competition and kept everyone on their toes.

Maybe this is just rumor, but I heard there is going to be a Lexus w/ the Supra TT motor in it coming soon.

i think all toyota cars are kinda ugly now, the mr-s doesnt look all that great either. the trucks are probably the only ones that didnt get uglier.

ok. toyota has kind of gotten away from the scene. the lil 'pocket rocket' right now is the celica who is a very good car, and the tiny MR2. but i agree this is nothin compared to the new V6's and turboed 4 banggers. IMO honda is right now making some good family cars. that accord keeps getting 'good buy', and all these good things from mags, and so is the odessy which was best mini van for the 2004 by some mag. maybe just me, but nissan is owning right now. it got truck of the year(titan), and the Armada is also doing super, just hangin with the HEMI powered durango. the Sentra(SE-R) is also good because you add a 2.5l engine to it and you have a car runnin with the pocket rockets. the maxima is doin great with the new design, and its also really fast and keeps geting better. and the 350Z, has no real competition other than the S2000 and RX-8. im a nissan person, but for real nissan is on top of most at this moment.

I don't see how you guys are overshooting this. You consider Honda and Acura one(which they are), but you're not considering Toyota and Lexus one. Lexus has the IS300, a very very nice car, expensive, but no more expensive than the other cars you guys have named. Not exactly what you were looking for in the catagory, but its a car.

actually supras with the right tuning can reach over 200mph...

the altezza is their current sports car... kind of... but if you havent been quite paying attention toyota has been making new motors... it already has 2 concepts which use the same hybrid motor with 408 hp and another with 600hp that gets 60mph...

Nissan and Honda are the best jap companies.
who says? wheres the proof?

Saying a company is the 'best' is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, Nissan is booming right now. The Altima is selling INSANELY well, the G35 and 350Z are making a big splash, and the Titan seems to be the best full-size truck on the market. The only thing that needs improving, in my opinion, is the Sentra. The SE-R Spec-V is good, but it still lags behind newer cars like the Mazda 3 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart.

I don't see how you guys are overshooting this. You consider Honda and Acura one(which they are), but you're not considering Toyota and Lexus one. Lexus has the IS300, a very very nice car, expensive, but no more expensive than the other cars you guys have named. Not exactly what you were looking for in the catagory, but its a car.

The IS300 is no more impressive as far as performance goes in it's class than the Matrix XRS and Corolla XRS are in theirs. Lexus which is part of Toyota is also boring. Sure the GS430 and SC430 are some what fast, but by no means do they have serious all around performance.

Saying a company is the 'best' is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, Nissan is booming right now. The Altima is selling INSANELY well, the G35 and 350Z are making a big splash, and the Titan seems to be the best full-size truck on the market. The only thing that needs improving, in my opinion, is the Sentra. The SE-R Spec-V is good, but it still lags behind newer cars like the Mazda 3 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart.
lancer ralliart? the SE-R owns that and hopefully will also own the 3. the august 2004 SCC mag can tell you how wrong you are, cause a SE-R whooped a SVT focuz, and a SRT-4. :)

The IS300 isnt really a sports car by most definitions, I beleive you would call it a "sports sedan." The can't really compete with the competition you guys are talking about (nor its actual competition but thats another thread). Its boring, and based on the camry, which is also boring.

It is in no way based off of the Camry; you're thinking of the ES 330. The IS 300 is a compact sedan, not a midsize sedan like the Camry, and it's based off of the Japanese-market Toyota Altezza, a sporty compact sedan. Even so, it is not a sports car, and it can't compete with cars like the 350Z, RX-8, and S2000.

who says the altezza cant compete?? it uses the 3sge vvti... hks used it to produce over 600hp

the is300 uses the 2jzge vvti which can put out big hp as well :screwy:

http://www4.district125.k12.il.us/faculty/mfinlay/webFall02/sites/chemler/Page2/altezzabig.gif

The list of Toyota's that haven't been boring is small.

-Supra (All)
-MR2 (AW11 & SW20)
-Trueno (AE85 & AE86)
-Celica GT4 (All)
-Altezza RS200

All (With the exceptions of the few I forgot) others are terminally boring shopping baskets/Old peoples cars/family cars.

Nissans only good cars are currently being saved for the US market, only the V35 and 350Z are interesing in other parts of the world (Although the Teana is vaguely interesting), Mitsubishi is almost obsolete, the Evolution, Eclipse, Lancer, Pajero/Montero, Diamante and Colt are the only thing I can think of that they still make and only the Evo and Colt are any bit interesting.

Mazda, Subaru and Honda are the makers who are really beginning to shine- The TL, Accord/TSX, NSX (After 13 years), S2000, Civic Type R, CRV, RSX, new Legend/RL, Jazz/Fit, Stream and new Oddysey are all world-beating Hondas within their class, the 2, 3, 6, RX8 and MX5 (After 15 years) are really doing it for Mazda and Subaru's new Legacy, Forester and the Impreza WRX are superb for niche cars.

An SER Spec-V owned an SRT-4??? how is this possible?

An SER Spec-V owned an SRT-4??? how is this possible?
No possible way the car could have been stock, definitely modded in some fashion.

lancer ralliart? the SE-R owns that and hopefully will also own the 3. the august 2004 SCC mag can tell you how wrong you are, cause a SE-R whooped a SVT focuz, and a SRT-4. :)

the se-r is a good car but i dont think it can beat the srt4 stock, maybe in handling.. that car has good handling

Toyota is boring. And bringing in the Lexus badge can only add to this opinion. One of Lexus's main competetor's is BMW. Last time I checked they dont have an answer for the M3 or the M5 (In their classes, I mean). Lexus doesn't have a real competitor to the Infinity G35. Dont get me wrong, Toyota/Lexus have lots of very nice vehicles but nothing I would consider really innovative.

Toyota is boring. And bringing in the Lexus badge can only add to this opinion. One of Lexus's main competetor's is BMW. Last time I checked they dont have an answer for the M3 or the M5 (In their classes, I mean). Lexus doesn't have a real competitor to the Infinity G35. Dont get me wrong, Toyota/Lexus have lots of very nice vehicles but nothing I would consider really innovative.

well there is supposedly a lexus is430 coming around.. but no info yet.. it was in som magazine.. sorry can't confirm.. but it will have around 340hp.. search it online if u dont believe me.. but yea it should whoop a bunch of cars

The list of Toyota's that haven't been boring is small.

-MR2 (AW11 & SW20)



and what about the MR-S(and just wtf is its chasi codename..?) ?


Some of you guys need to test drive one of these things. They are one of the most fun vehicles on the market even though they are underpowerd. :iceslolan

but I agree, toyota is lacking in its sports car line up.. specialy with what seems to be its last sports car the MR2-Spyder coming to an end soon IIRC (as if its being replaced Lotus Elise... :sly: )

who says the altezza cant compete?? it uses the 3sge vvti... hks used it to produce over 600hp

the is300 uses the 2jzge vvti which can put out big hp as well :screwy:

http://www4.district125.k12.il.us/faculty/mfinlay/webFall02/sites/chemler/Page2/altezzabig.gif

We are talking stock for stock, of course a modified IS300 would better compete, but that's not fair to compare a modified IS300 to stock cars.

Last I read, the Ralliart was right on par with the SE-R Spec-V. Not sure about the Mazda 3.

Last I read, the Ralliart was right on par with the SE-R Spec-V. Not sure about the Mazda 3.

well just between those 2 cars i would drive the nissan.. #1 for reliability.. and #2 the parts cost less and nissan already has lots of aftermarket support + nismo.. well both car makers have a history of turbocharged vehicles.. i dont think the mazda 3 is on the same level tho

ok. toyota has kind of gotten away from the scene. the lil 'pocket rocket' right now is the celica who is a very good car, and the tiny MR2.

Of course those two are being discontinued, so Toyota will become even more boring. :lol:

The most exciting Lexus right now might be a toss up between the IS300 and the GS430, which is in need of replacement(current GS came out back in '98).

The IS300 is quite lost in its class, not really offering performance/luxury/price on par with the competition. The Acura TSX is probably closest to this car, if you catch my drift. Like the Acura, the IS300 doesn't really fit in. The G35, for example, blows it away. BMW's 3-series has always been ahead of it in just about every area, with the possible exception of price. It's replacement will be even better. Even if the IS300 had 340-something hp V8, it would be highly doubtful to see it touch the M3's or possibly even the V8 S4's dynamics.

The GS was great when it first came out, but it's just getting too old. The replacement should be pretty good, though.

My parents bought a 2003 Lexus GS 300, and I always thought they should have just bought an IS 300 instead and saved about $10000. All the GS really has is some fancy junk and more rear seat room... :/

We are talking stock for stock, of course a modified IS300 would better compete, but that's not fair to compare a modified IS300 to stock cars.

they said that the is300 didnt have much potential compared to the newer cars out and that it couldnt compete with their power... i was just showing them that it does have potential

IMHO Toyota gave up on the performance market because they just couldn't get it together and come up with a succesful "hot" lineup. And remember, how popular the Supra Turbo or whatever other car may be know isn't the issue. How well it did when new is what matters as far as the lineup surviving is concerned.

Case in point. When the Mk IV Supra came out it was not well received. A lot, and I mean a lot, of folks did not like the looks and the price tag was just an absolute jaw dropper. A new Z06 sticker is just about the same in absolute dollars NOW as Toyota was asking for the TT Supras in the mid ninties. Seriously, someone apparently needed a major reality check. Some exotics were barely more than the TT Supra and that was a very bad marketing idea. Most people I talk to have forgotten all about the insane MSRP the TT Supras intitially had, but I worked at a dealership that sold Toyotas right before the discounts kicked in and remember very well.

Toyota did finally offer discounts on the car, but this promptly ticked off everyone who had already bought one. Think about it, when Toyota will sell someone a new Supra for 15 to 20 grand less than you paid for yours (yes, the discounts were that large) when new a year ago that can kinda shoots the hell right outta your resale value. Although, those who held onto their cars can get a goodly sum for them. It still was not brilliant marketing by any stretch on Toyota's part. And, until those rebates kicked in I could have easily bought a TT RX7 for far, far less dough (I could have likely bought a brand new, albeit stripped, Ford Ranger for the difference in the price tags...and thats just too damn much)

The hotter Celicas never did very well. (Likely because Alltracs weren't exactly inexpensive for what you got much like MkIV Supra's). The "real" MR2 was likely the most succesful performance car for Toyota by their standards, (expected sales, etc.) but they screwed that up with whatever the hell that thing they sell now is supposed to be.

Toyota can build some nice performance cars, they just can't seem to market them worth a damn.

the supra tt was about as much as the 300zx tt which could get up to over the mid $50,000 with options... but no one is complaining on the price of that :screwy:

Well, the 300ZX TT won Car and Driver's 10Best award every year it was out, so obviously there was something about it that made it superior to the Supra. My guess is the styling and the price (the 300ZX TT did NOT cost as much as a Supra TT, even after discounts).

Yea, the IS430 is coming out a little late. When BMWs entire 3 series gets an overhaul in 2006, the M3/M4 is supposed to have a 400bhp V8. A V8 BMW will smash any Lexus/Toyota

Last I read in June 2004 issue of Automobile magazine: The next-generation M3 will still be called the M3, despite the 3 Series coupes and convertibles being renamed as 4 Series. It will be available with a 4.0-liter 400 hp V8 or a 4.4-liter 440 hp V8. Sounds like the M3 won't be having any more Z06 problems after the re-design :)

so from the 3 series to the 4 series?? you guys serious?

Yes bmw is making alot of changes to its lineup... In the close future they will have a 1series (Europe and mabe NA I think), 2 series coming soon, the aformentioned 4 series and the continuation of the 3,5,6 and 7 series....Also with a new M3 and M5 (I think the M5 is getting a V10) they are also making an M2 and an M6...I could also see an X2 as well

As for Toyota, C&D says Lexus will be making its own performance division and include a performance version if the IS, GS, and LS...I think they will be available for 2006

Basically, odd numbers will be sedans and wagons, and even numbers will be coupes and convertibles. But even though the M3 is a coupe and should therefore be called the M4, they are keeping it as the M3 because of the name/moniker recognition.

wtf? toyotas are not fast??? i guess supras are slow right.... :screwy:
can an s2000 go over 200mhp?

CURRENT CARS!!!

Toyotas current cars 2004 are NOT, I repeat NOT fast.

Umm, i believe the Celice would beat your 15.3 SiR

i wonder how much the v8 m3 is gonna weigh, or the v8 version of the is300. i hope they dont become too heavy.

Nah, I doubt the M3 will get much heavier. Besides, it's going to have so much more power and torque that it'll barely even matter if it gains 100 pounds or so.

"real" mr2?

Umm, i believe the Celice would beat your 15.3 SiR
:1:

"real" mr2?

The one with a turbo, or even the supercharged version, not the slow one that Toyota sells now. Slow? Yup, both the turbo and supercharged versions would show the new MR2 their tail lights.

actually supras with the right tuning can reach over 200mph...

Yeah, well, no shit. You can make just about any decently aerodynamic car go 200 MPH. We're talking about current STOCK Toyotas.

were talking about toyota cars in general which includes tuning ability

were talking about toyota cars in general which includes tuning ability

Ok, we might be talking about tuning ability, but the fact remains that we're talking about the current line of Toyota cars not past cars. We're talking about why the current line is boring and slow. Also, my last comment was more along the lines to prove the point that most any aerodynamic car can be made to go 200 MPH that is nothing special. Neither car can do it stock, but with time and money you can make most any car fast. It is just a matter of how much you're willing to spend of both.

toyota's are boring, their styling is very unoriginal and unaggressive. Their new solara is an improvement, but overall toyota is still very boring. And I agree about Nissan's new line-up, they are great and I am glad they finally picked up on their design, The 350z and g35's are very nicely designed vehicles, the 350z is sleek and aggressive while the g35 is luxury and elegant. I don't like Honda's new line-up though, the TL is nice but the TSX - 2.4 liter inline 4 :( (my car has a similar engine, but I wouldn't pay $23k for it)

Toyota isn't marketing to the people looking for fun cars though, everyone sees Toyota as reliable cars that won't leave you stranded. And they are exactly living up to their name, building reliable cars that don't get people's attention.

but interestingly enough, they may not have awesome street cars, but they are in nascar (truck series) you don't see any other foriegners trying to make strides to be in the most popular auto racing in america. so they did something with that supercar division :smile:

but interestingly enough, they may not have awesome street cars, but they are in nascar (truck series) you don't see any other foriegners trying to make strides to be in the most popular auto racing in america. so they did something with that supercar division :smile:
Can't blame them, if I were a multi-national car company, I'd be concentrating my motorsport efforts elsewhere, that doesn't involve going in circles.



*Hides from the NASCAR fans*

yeah ........toyota has the biggest f1 racing budget as well but they still arent winning, i really like toyota but their performance has left me searching for more.

Toyota also makes a ton of other products automotive and otherwise... I thought the Tundras was winning in the Cascar (??? is that was the sort of Nascar truck series is called??)...Toyota does have the branding of a fuel economy old mans car (which as i said before their sorta trying to fix) and have very few exciting cars out right now

y'know, reading some of the things here makes me realise how different our car markets are.

anyway,
the thing is, here in the uk, if you want an exciting car, you won't go and buy a toyota.
so isn't this statement, that toyotas are boring, kinda irrelevant?

in anycase, the mr-s is quite a fun drive.
so boring?
i wouldn't say so.