Here's the rundown so far:
$20,000 to start

1997 EX Coupe $4350
Title transfer and other expenses $150
CR-VTEC complete swap $4000

we have $11,500 and 4 money spending stages after this


Well, we have our CRVTEC, now are we gonna build it n/a or are we gonna go with turbo/supercharger w/ nos?

It's your decision, choose wisely. Don't forget to post as much info as you can including dyno, pricing, and website information.

Good luck

This is how the motor is..

b20 block, b16 head, b17 crank, CTR cams, JE rods and pistons @ 9.5:1 compression.

GSR transmission


ok.. go to it guys!

I don't know man. 11 grand left and we haven't addressed braking system, cooling system, aftermarket engine add ons, exterior work including paint and rims, interior add ons including possible vyniling, bad ass suspension system, or ICE.

A good turbo/super system will cost $3000-$4000 plus labor and extras which will leave us with 7grand for everything I mentioned. Yeah Right.

I say we give it a 100 shot of nitrous for $500 and save money for the rest of the stuff. We haven't even started.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer

I say we give it a 100 shot of nitrous for $500 and save money for the rest of the stuff. We haven't even started.

I would much rather have the extra power "on tap" as oppose to a nitrous set up. I say go for a good NA set up. Although, Rocketeer is right about money issue.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
I don't know man. 11 grand left and we haven't addressed braking system, cooling system, aftermarket engine add ons, exterior work including paint and rims, interior add ons including possible vyniling, bad ass suspension system, or ICE.

bam.. someone caught it early

come on, why not Forced Induction? More power, less money. Almost like Nitrous....but continuous

I don't know man. 11 grand left and we haven't addressed braking system, cooling system, aftermarket engine add ons, exterior work including paint and rims, interior add ons including possible vyniling, bad ass suspension system, or ICE.

Well, Vynling and ICE is a waste of money when operating on a limited budget.
Also, The compression on the engine is low already, so, FI may work be a good route to take! IMO anyways.
However, building a bad ass N/A car is sweet!

if the money was available i would deffinatly try and follow what thins guy did

http://www.turbomagazine.com/archives/features/feature04_civicunrest.jsp


but sijnce we are on a budget and putting together a custom turbo kits would eat a lot of that up i have no choice in the matter then to say
either of these two

option a)
a vortech supercharger. with the added displacement of the cr/vtec over the standard b16 i could imagine this would be one mean son of a bitch...

option b)
an drag gen 3 turbo system for a b18c. not an fmax anymore because i have come to not like thier fuel computer or the 5th injector add on ...i really dont wanna get into it so i'll leave it at that.


only problem i have these is those piece of shit boost dependant rising rate fuel pressure regulators. look i dont know about you but when im hitting full boost the last thing i wanna keep my eye on is the fuel pressure gauge thats about to hit the hundreds in pressure, its just not safe nor is it the best thing for injector life. and the last thing you want is injector failure.......on top of the vortech or drag i would get a pms engine management unit and some bigger injectors...440's or so. the cool thing about the pms is it retains the stock ecu and modifies the signals after they have left the ecu not incoming like most piggybacks like the vafc. its only about 800$ and comes with some decent features like injector pulswidth control yadda yadda yadda. alot of the prelude guys with SH's are looking at these because you can retain all accessories like atts with it since it only post modifies stock ecu signals. plus its upgradable from its basic form to a much better version that is up there with the rest of the emu's. i think it would be a worthwhile investment. oh and lets not forget no matter what we are going to need a new clutch.....and a limited slip differential would be nice. and if we get the drag a tial wastegate rather then the deltagate.


pms's website
http://www.efisystems.com/pms.htm

a comprehensive site about the pms from an rx7 owner
http://www.efisystems.com/pms.htm

injectors injectors injectors
http://www.rceng.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------
vortech option
vortech supercharger 4000.00$
pms 899.00$
rc 440cc injectors 85.26$ a piece (from import parts but sure we could get it cheaper)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
drag turbo option
drag turbo kit 3,199.95 (from import parts but sure we could get it cheaper)
pms 899.00$
rc 440cc injectors 85.26$ a piece (from import parts but sure we could get it cheaper)

frankly the only reason i think i would do the vortech over the drag turbo is the fact that i have never seen a cr/vtec vortech turbo before in my life. other then that the drag wins in every catagory.

not to mention with that turbo setup you can easily push 1.5 bar and be in the 11's or 12's.

so 4 grand ok lets make it 4400 cause i forgot about the radiator so add another 400 for a fluidyne.

and 7 grand is plenty to work with for suspension, braking and ice. at least in my world it is.

with a turbocharger!!
Found one for $3195 shipped. It comes w/ Garret T04/03 turbocharger, custom header & downpipe, chrome front mount intercooler & turbo piping, High flow bosche fuel pump, Vortech fuel mgmt unit, Greddy blow-off valve, bypass valves, and all necessary plumbing. Found it at www.cnw.com/~redline/HondaDragTurbo.htm
After you get this you shouldn't have any problem finding a bunch of sponsors!!!

Oh yeah, plus you HAVE to throw on that 100 shot of NOS!!! Couldn't find the prices for the Turbo NOS kits though.

Originally posted by SRHguru
Well, Vynling and ICE is a waste of money when operating on a limited budget.

ICE is a waste of money? Let's turbo charge it, strip the interior, put a 10 point cage and spend the rest on engine stuff.

I think I'm gonna say this atleast twice per thread. We are building the ultimate civic in EVERY aspect. We're not building a race car, or a show car. We're building a little of both and we can't sacrifice one area for another. The ultimate civic needs entertainment and it won't be a factory cassette player.

We've already spent and going to spend more money on the engine than anything else on the car. A built bottom end with perfect R/S ratio and some possible fuel and spark upgrades and no money left? What's the best option?

Originally posted by i like naked girls
and 7 grand is plenty to work with for suspension, braking and ice. at least in my world it is.

Alright let's think.

$1000 rims and tires: $6000
$700 for a body kit: $5300
$500 for misc. exterior items $4800
$2000 for springs, shocks, camber kit, sway bars, and strut bars: $2800
$500 for cooling system: $2300
$600 for braking system: $1700
The rest goes for ICE

We still haven't installed or painted the body kit......And frankly a bunch of other shit I can't think of right now cause I have bigger things on my mind but it's cutting it awfully close.

I'll be back after I deal with the knots in my head.

rims tires and suspension no more then 2500

that leaves 4 grand or so for ice and shit

i think thats acceptable

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
$700 for a body kit:

fuk dem kitz yo, jdm is da way ta go wit da lips dat ownz j00!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/190568aiight.jpg



seriously, I'd rather just save the kit and do a couple lips. Way cheaper to paint and sets up thats sleeper look.

and go with that turbo that nemesls_2000 posted or a Vortech supercharger

Originally posted by nemesls_2000
with a turbocharger!!
Found one for $3195 shipped. It comes w/ Garret T04/03 turbocharger, custom header & downpipe, chrome front mount intercooler & turbo piping, High flow bosche fuel pump, Vortech fuel mgmt unit, Greddy blow-off valve, bypass valves, and all necessary plumbing. Found it at www.cnw.com/~redline/HondaDragTurbo.htm
After you get this you shouldn't have any problem finding a bunch of sponsors!!!

Go with the Turbo :D:D!

And scrap the body kit, keep it the simple sleeper style ;)!

Alright, I MIGHT agree with the turbo setup but I highly disagree with not getting a kit. No offense but the exterior of a coupe is already designed to be pretty boring. You might get away with that in a hatch. But even with a subtle one that gives it an expensive car look, we need a kit.

And I still don't like the idea that we skimp out on everything else just we can get a turbo. I don't like locking yourself into the commitment so you can find out that all the misc. stuff forced you to get American Racing rims and fuckin Alpine deck with stock speakers.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer


Alright let's think.

$1000 rims and tires: $6000
$700 for a body kit: $5300
$500 for misc. exterior items $4800
$2000 for springs, shocks, camber kit, sway bars, and strut bars: $2800
$500 for cooling system: $2300
$600 for braking system: $1700
The rest goes for ICE

We still haven't installed or painted the body kit......And frankly a bunch of other shit I can't think of right now cause I have bigger things on my mind but it's cutting it awfully close.

I'll be back after I deal with the knots in my head.

Saying $2k for springs, shocks, etc.. might be a little much.. the only reason i could see it breaking that much is if we used true coilovers, not sleeves. for a car like this on our budget i believe sleeves like groundcontrol and some koni yellows would be good.. add in the front abd back upper tie bar and a thicker sway bar and you still shouldn't be over $1.5k... i could be wrong though...

If we used spaq's prices on audio etc.. we should be able to make a killer system and still have money to paint and maybe reapuluster the inside..

I say all this mess just to come to the point and say ... turbo or vortec that bia :)

Originally posted by ACCSlvCivic
Saying $2k for springs, shocks, etc.. might be a little much.. the only reason i could see it breaking that much is if we used true coilovers, not sleeves. for a car like this on our budget i believe sleeves like groundcontrol and some koni yellows would be good.. add in the front abd back upper tie bar and a thicker sway bar and you still shouldn't be over $1.5k... i could be wrong though...

Alright: $300 for the GC sleeves
$600 for the Koni Yellow's
$250 front and rear camber kit
$300 front and rear sway bar
$300 strut bars

$1750

Originally posted by CivSiGuy
This is how the motor is..

b20 block, b16 head, b17 crank, CTR cams, JE rods and pistons @ 9.5:1 compression.

GSR transmission


ok.. go to it guys!

wait a minute here..... I am comfused... So that www.importbuilders.com crvtec swap only costs 4g's? no way, i could barely find a b18c swao USED with no extras for 3500!

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
Alright, I MIGHT agree with the turbo setup but I highly disagree with not getting a kit. No offense but the exterior of a coupe is already designed to be pretty boring. You might get away with that in a hatch. But even with a subtle one that gives it an expensive car look, we need a kit.

And I still don't like the idea that we skimp out on everything else just we can get a turbo. I don't like locking yourself into the commitment so you can find out that all the misc. stuff forced you to get American Racing rims and fuckin Alpine deck with stock speakers.

I agree with Rice. A bodykit is a must. I know this is not the issue yet, but if you're really building an ultimate Civic you must have a full bodykit.

I know I'm jumping the gun, but I'm bored!! I found the Buddy Club bodykit for 96-00 Civic. It is $630 ($500 + $130 s/h) It's on e-bay: Item #600534314.

Alright: $300 for the GC sleeves
$600 for the Koni Yellow's
$250 front and rear camber kit
$300 front and rear sway bar
$300 strut bars

$1750

Ok... i think on group buy center you can beat those prices easy..
$300 is right for the GC coilovers
$550 or maybe a little less for yellows
Use the hardware fix for the rear camber kit (unless you have to get a differnt camber kit when you switch to rear disc breaks, i'm not sure..)
that means you'll probably only end up spending $30 on the back and prob $150 on the front.. that's less than $200
I haven't priced sway bars much, so i can't say anything on that one.
on the Strut bars unless you are buying spoon or mugen or something crazy like that you should be able to get both upper tie bars for < $200.. i don't see spending more than $250 upper and maybe the rear lower tie bar. Even without lower tie bar we should be so stiff w/sway bars and upper tie bars that the bottom one wouldn't make much diff..
I dunno.. let me know if you want me to go hunting on group buy center for the prices..?

Originally posted by ACCSlvCivic
Ok... i think on group buy center you can beat those prices easy..

I've been trying to give not the best prices but the average prices for all this stuff. Remember, this is a car that the average Joe can build. Project cars aren't made by finding the absolute cheapest price anywhere but the average price because that's what the average Joe is probably gonna pay.

We can't say "Well my cousin Gooky has a turbo he can sell you for $200. And I found this used Koni Yellow set on Ebay for $50. We need average prices.

But discussing suspension prices is not the priority right now. My point is, this is what we should expect, worset case scenario for suspension, let's choose wisely.

Let's get to the topic at hand. Turbo, Super or None?

Gah JON! I want to use your 'money' :D

anyways..MONEY is a problem..so I say go NA :D


the cams are already there - the R/S ratio is near perfect. The displacement is there! intake/header/exhuast and maybe some nitrous.

so...around what $600 for a 75 shot nitrous system. I'm estimating $1000 for i/h/e.

OR! If someone could find prices on pistons and rods we could go serious NA route...which is what I prefer.....

I am maybe thinking on going the autoXer route for the car. It's gaining popularity......


plus - we could become hoes for more money! :D

Originally posted by VTEC_boi
so...around what $600 for a 75 shot nitrous system. I'm estimating $1000 for i/h/e.

OR! If someone could find prices on pistons and rods we could go serious NA route...which is what I prefer....

You could strap a 75 shot to the stock motor. We already have pistons and rods. We could do a 100 shot or even a 125 shot with some tuning.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer


You could strap a 75 shot to the stock motor. We already have pistons and rods. We could do a 100 shot or even a 125 shot with some tuning.

I'm rice on this one all the way... if we aren't going FI, i think NOS a must.. an NA honda is still going to have trouble hanging with vettes and such.. i know people who are shooting 75 in their d16 and hanging with vettes (not z06, but still...). if we put a nice 100 shot or more we ought to be able to light it up pretty good on the track :)

I know that Rene!

I was saying to that.

But..if rods/pistons were cheap enough we could do that as well and then run more shot.

But..if rods/pistons were too expensive just run 75.

Originally posted by VTEC_boi
But..if rods/pistons were cheap enough we could do that as well and then run more shot.

But..if rods/pistons were too expensive just run 75.

Dude, We Already Have Rods and Pistons.

They came with the engine: JE rods and pistons @ 9.5:1 compression

OH! LOL! *acts like he isn't stupid*

I knew that! :D


i was going to suggest raising the CR - that's why i was wondering the prices.

Originally posted by VTEC_boi
plus - we could become hoes for more money! :D

Good idea, but shouldn't we get a pimp? ;).

I think we have found out that 20 grand is NOT enough to build the ultimate Civic :p . If everyone is so bent on getting a nice kit (bleh, I am with CivSiGuy on this one: lips), blingin wheels (double bleh), a smashed (although practical) look, and a rockin system, why don't we get some power out of a JRSC and we could squeeze the laughing gas for an extra bang when we are up against something other than a minivan :D.

I'm not too sure how parts are applied to this crazy motor, but I'll try and you guys can correct me if I am wrong.

Supercharger from Jackson Racing for B20B4 - $2949.00 (As quoted from JRSC's (http://www.jacksonracing.com) homepage)

N2O Direct port system from N.O.S. - $630.00 (Quoted estimate from Options Auto (http://www.optionsauto.com) )

The nitro setup can give us a shot of 50 to 250 extra horsepower. Of course, anything over 100 is risky without proper tuning, especially with boost from a supercharger already there. Also, we are looking at prices being quoted from the product maker, at least on the supercharger, so I am sure we can find cheaper prices if we look around. These two power givers add up to a grand total of:

$3579.00

That is just about what it would cost for a Drag Turbo and less that a Vortech Supercharger. Although power will be lower, we still have almost $8000 to work with. We could also look into a pully upgrade for under $500.

I vote for a JRSC and N2O setup.

I think we have found out that 20 grand is NOT enough to build the ultimate Civic :p .

NO doubt!!

If everyone is so bent on getting a nice kit (bleh, I am with CivSiGuy on this one: lips), blingin wheels (double bleh), a smashed (although practical) look, and a rockin system,

Remember.. we are thinking the Ultimate civic.. not the ulitmate race civic.. looks and sound matter more to some people


why don't we get some power out of a JRSC and we could squeeze the laughing gas for an extra bang when we are up against something other than a minivan :D.

I'm not too sure how parts are applied to this crazy motor, but I'll try and you guys can correct me if I am wrong.

Supercharger from Jackson Racing for B20B4 - $2949.00 (As quoted from JRSC's (http://www.jacksonracing.com) homepage)

N2O Direct port system from N.O.S. - $630.00 (Quoted estimate from Options Auto (http://www.optionsauto.com) )

The nitro setup can give us a shot of 50 to 250 extra horsepower. Of course, anything over 100 is risky without proper tuning, especially with boost from a supercharger already there. Also, we are looking at prices being quoted from the product maker, at least on the supercharger, so I am sure we can find cheaper prices if we look around. These two power givers add up to a grand total of:
$3579.00

That is just about what it would cost for a Drag Turbo and less that a Vortech Supercharger. Although power will be lower, we still have almost $8000 to work with. We could also look into a pully upgrade for under $500.

I vote for a JRSC and N2O setup. [/B]

on the JRSC... i kinda gotta vote against it.. i've never seen JRSC's kick out the numbers they claim.. i dunno, they are reliable as far as i can tell, but they just don't seem to have the punch i'd like to see for their price..

I think Rice-R had the right idea of going with a nice 100 or 125 shot of nos regarless of anything else.. It's good for race value and it's also very nice for show purposes! People -love- to see two big bottles (or even just one) of nitrous in the trunk of a car!

Also, no one has thrown out the idea of a smaller and less extreme turbo. The Greddy turbo cost less than the JRSC if you get from The Group Buy Center (http://www.groupbuycenter.com/buy.asp?row_id=4433) for 28% off.. that's around $2300.. to me that's a very reasonable price and leaves room for upgrades in the intercooler and boost controler area! just a thought

Okay, here's my two cents.

JRSC are overated and not very tunable for the money.

The ultimate civic should be fast. We should shoot for high 12's in the quarter.

It should be turbo charged (with this budget, N/A is too expensive). $3200.00

It should have a nice lip. Body kits are not needed IMO.
$150.00

ICE should run no more than $800.00
$800.00

We should just slap some GSR leathers in that bad boy and some new mats.
$600.00 probably less

The only other interior stuff should be guages and bezels.
$200.00-$300.00

It should have a decent suspension including poly bushings.
$1,500.00

and a 75shot of NOS would make this car scream with a turbo kit.
$500.00-$600.00

Rims and tires
$800.00-$1,000.00

So what doe sall this add up to? About $8,000.00.

That's $3,500.00 for brakes and extra's (like a panit job if it's needed)

If you start getting into body kits and looks, there is no such thing as an ultimate civic. Some people want the sleeper look, some people want shiny kits. Some people want lightweight 15" rims, some people want shiny 18"s. Some people hate Altezzas, some people should be shot.

Basically "ultimate" in performance isn't to difficult to define. "Ultimate" in looks is totally subjective.

I could easily build my ultimate civic for 20 grand. It'll have a decent stereo, it'll be glued to the road, and it'll run 11s... maybe lower. However, it'll look almost totally stock.

Someone else's ultimate 20 grand civic might have wild body kits, big rims, mind-blowing ICE, fully custom interior... but I guarantee it'll be slower and wont handle as well as mine.

Anyway, to the topic at hand.... with what we have I think we need to go FI if we keep the current pistons. The CR on our current engine is too low to really get enough NA power. Just using 100 shot of nitrous is simply an attempt to cover up a major flaw in our build.

Nice post! I totally agree w/ you on the "ultimate civic" in looks. Everyone's opinion is going to be different. We'll have to come up with a bunch of different options and take a poll. Including: different body kits, or just front ends, front/rear lips, hoods, etc.

We still have 2 more weeks to worry about the bodykit problem. Anyway, we need to talk about the FI, I want to know what you all think about the turbo I suggested. I think it will be sweet as hell!!!

RevHard Stage: 2
Use: Street/Track
Part No.: RH18IT
MSRP: $3,599.99
Boost Level: 9psi
Injector Size: Stock
Horsepower/Torque: +120 / 285 ft/lbs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev Hard Cast Iron Manifold
Rev Hard T3/T04E Hybrid Turbo
Rev Hard Intercooler
Deltagate (9psi Spring)
GReddy Type S Blow Off Valve
2.25" Aluminzed Mandrel Bent Piping
2.5" Downpipe
Progressive Type Fuel Regulator
Purosil Hoses & Clamps
High Volume Fuel Pump
Steel Braided -3 Oil Line
Oil Return Line
High Pressure Fuel Line
High Pressure Silicon Hose
Neccessary Vacuum Tee's
Neccessary Vacuum Lines

copied off the website that will get us into the twelves easy and we are talking about a newbie owner here so a Turbo kit is ideal

I agree looks are very subjective. Power is supreme.

Originally posted by Redcivic
I agree looks are very subjective. Power is supreme.

I'm pretty sure we'll run a poll for the looks and ad-ons. Well, as much as I'd like to throw a turbocharger on this thing or even a supercharger we can't do it with the money we've got. Rene, we are going to HAVE to go with NA b/c it will be the best way to save $$$ for the other steps. I want it be above avg in every category and we can't do that by getting a turbo/supercharger. So, naturally aspirated it is!!!! Anyone who disagrees with this doesn't understand the concept of building the "ultimate civic."

Unfortunately, it's not up to me or any one person to decide that. Like I said, we need to go with what the majority wants. But I still need to alert everyone of the financial issues associated with FI.

Originally posted by nemesls_2000


I'm pretty sure we'll run a poll for the looks and ad-ons. Well, as much as I'd like to throw a turbocharger on this thing or even a supercharger we can't do it with the money we've got. Rene, we are going to HAVE to go with NA b/c it will be the best way to save $$$ for the other steps. I want it be above avg in every category and we can't do that by getting a turbo/supercharger. So, naturally aspirated it is!!!! Anyone who disagrees with this doesn't understand the concept of building the "ultimate civic."

As much as i'd like to go NA since FI can and does cost so much.. our compression ratio is just low for an NA car.. to turn it NA would be almost as costly as going with the Greddy turbo Kit from group buy center (see my post above) .. I could be -way- off since i don't know a whole whole lot about NA motors, but i do recall that most NA motors do require a lot of effort to make quick... Just some thoughts

the problem with goin n/a or f/i is that either way you do it, its gonna cost alot if you want some serious power. . basically either way we go we are going top have to keep it from crossing the fine line into realms that the ecu cant handle or the stock fuel system cant handle. i dont know if any of younz have had the royal treatment of seeing what high fuel pressure or constant ecu codes does to the mix but it is frustrating to say the least.

i am geared towards more power then anything else in a car and im sure everyone who reads my posts knows that. obviously the bad ass civic isnt all about power but i dont think we can close the door on that.

part of making a bad ass civic with 20grand should be leaving the option to upgrade things.

basically i am taking back my earlier statement and saying this

a drag gen III turbo kit.....and thats all, run it stock. for the money you really cant beat it. if you put it up against the greddy it wins hands down and its only 150.00 more. also it leaves the option to upgrade to different trim levels, it can provide considerably more boost in the future if we plan to upgrade our injectors or get an EMU.. the fmax kit is a patch kit in my eyes because it uses a 5th injector to provide fuel that an inadequete primary system cant handle, and single port injection doesnt necessarily say any given cylinder will recieve the proper amount of fuel. and the rev hard is basically 300 more for a 9 psi spring!

if we go n/a we will have just as much on our hands, we are gonna neeed new cams cause the ctr cams wont cut it. to make any decent power the cam will have to be somehwhat wild so we'll need new valve springs and retainers, the head will need to be ported and polished and have a 3 angle or greater valve job. we will have to ditch the 9.5 pistons for some 11.0 ones, this motor is gonna have to rev high to take advantage of the cams so the bottom end will need to be worked on, the rods and crank will have to be blueprinted so this 9000+ screamer doesnt explode when the call of duty comes in. also forgot to mention that it will be as costly if not more then a turbo

all in all this doesnt leave to much room to upgrade, let alone live free of fear on pump gas which will soon be 92 or lower nationwide (in case you havent heard yet) not to mention this thing's power is gonna be so far out of range for a daily driver its rediculous. i dont know about you but my preludes redline is 7200 and i rarely shift after 3-4k, its just not practical to drive around at 8 grand everywhere, and not very fuel efficient. and the biggest thing RPM KILLS, its a well known fact that high rpm destroy engines quik.

as for the juice, its nice complement to a turbo or a supercharger or even an n/a engine every once in a while but its only aimed at one thing, the 1/4 mile. sorry folks but spraying nitrous on the street is just plain dangerous and doing it on an auto x track will have you spinning out of control. not to mention my biggest peeve of it is you only have as much as is in your bottle then your done. one minute your smoking mustang gt's the next your running with pontiac bonevilles.

Can someone clear something up for me real quick? Where did we get the rods and pistons?

NA is just too expensive for the gains. It's also not the most daily driver friendly, especially on this motor. We're looking for the Ultimate Civic, yes, but we are looking for the Ultimate Daily Driven Civic. I believe that a turbo kit is the way to go. We won't have to rev sky-high, and it'll be nicer to drive.

With that said, something like what ILNG was talking about sounds feasible. The only thing holding that back would be how expensive it all is, and how much work we still have to do. I guess the question would be...how fast should this car be? Essentially we're debating whether to spend an extra $2000-$2500 on the engine. Is this money that could be better spent elsewhere? Or is losing to a turboed Civic Si not an option?

Remember, we are going to have to budget our money. If we don't, we aren't going to have enough $ left to buy all of those cool Type R decals and L.E.D washer lights. Come on people, lets use our heads!!

All motor is far more expensive than F.I. Period. A turbo kit at it's set PSI is the way to go. And fuel system upgrades are not that expensive. I know this has been said but, THE COMPRESSION RATIO ON THIS MOTOR IS TOO LOW FOR N/A, IT IS BEGGING TO BE TURBOCHARGED! Without 13's or lower this car is just another modded civic, rather than the ultimate civic.

Originally posted by Redcivic
All motor is far more expensive than F.I. Period.

Fukn A man, What would you ppl do without me? Now you're comparing getting the same gains from NA that you would get from FI. IF you were to try to get the same hp from NA that would get from FI then yeah, of course it'll be expensive. They're not even in the same category. If we go NA, we sacrifice overall power for money.

Ppl we're not gonna go all out no matter what route we go. If we go NA we're not gonna get 11.5 pistons, cams, springs, ECU work, block work, ect. We Can't. If we spend $3000 on NA engine work, then WTF don't we just get the turbo? And if we go turbo, we're not going all out either. We go basic run of mill route with whatever route we choose.

As for reliability. Get real. You can't beat naturally asprirated honda reliability with ANY turbo charged honda engine. That's why some ppl choose the NA route. OF COURSE this only applies to a limit. Raise the CR to 16:1 on an NA engine and yeah FI, is much better.

Originally posted by Redcivic
THE COMPRESSION RATIO ON THIS MOTOR IS TOO LOW FOR N/A, IT IS BEGGING TO BE TURBOCHARGED!

And as for this statement, begging for FI my ass. Anything 8 is too low for NA and perfect for turbo. 9.5 is right there with most honda engines AND very nitrous friendly. It's high enough for power but low enough for extra future power upgradability. Anything 10+ is too high for FI, so we're right at the limit.

But I'm not totally opposed to the cheapest turbo kit we can find. I guess :)

So, you agree that this motor is better suited for F.I. duty?

Either going to be NA or an inexpensive turbo kit.

Anyone have a problem with CAI (12hp flywheel), 4-1 header (15hp and 15lbft boost at VTEC on a B16A, 7 at the top end), and exhaust(5 flywheel hp). That'll boost us about 25 extra hp over our already potent 200ish hp.

225 in a Civic is just about as much as a Jackson Racing Supercharger would give us. Not to mention we are only talking about $1,000 in mods compared to $2,500.

just a thought. :)

That leaves us over $9,000 for extra fun too. :D

That sounds great to me! I like the idea of going N/A. There are a lot of people who you'll have to convince though? BTW, how much is that flywheel?

Originally posted by Redcivic
So, you agree that this motor is better suited for F.I. duty?

It is but that still doesn't mean we should. But Like I said, I might be convinced to go for a cheap turbo setup since that's what the apparent majority is asking for.

I like the IHE thing BTW and we can throw in a FPR and cam gears to give it a little more tunability and believe me, that's fast enough.

spiralmax dawg, deez honkies be clowin da spiralmax yo. but i know da fo-realz on dat shizzy. its bangin, das like 30 pocent gainin true da board dawg!!!!! so for all youz sped's das like 300 a dem ponies to da flo. kno whats da dilly do yo? is like 3 payments a 40 billzz yo!!! youz cant go wrong wit dat, fo shizzy my nizzy!!




btw, i still say turbo. at least leave the kid whos buying this thing the room to upgrade and make more power easily. i mean even if its a pos unintercooled greddy kit for like 1500-2000 (which i have seen). and if he decides he doesnt wanna be turbo later on he can sell the kit for almost as much as he paid for it and get his n/a shit. i mean seriously, taking the na route is gonna put dude against a brick wall if he ever wanted to go faster.

CivSiGuy, you are smoking crack if you think I/H/E gets you 25HP. I have the same on my B16A (which has 10 more HP than a USDM B16A) and I only saw a 17HP peak gain. I have a modified Iceman CAI from a GSR, DC 4-1, and thermal R&D exhaust. 25HP? You've been reading too many ads.

Originally posted by i like naked girls
i mean seriously, taking the na route is gonna put dude against a brick wall if he ever wanted to go faster.

I reall don't see how. If we do the IHE thing, he can still remove the header and strap a turbo for a little more money it would cost him to upgrade the existing turbo and paraphanalia.

Alright, we need a poll to see where we stand.

Originally posted by Redcivic
CivSiGuy, you are smoking crack if you think I/H/E gets you 25HP.

I think the extra .4 liters of displacement will change your average B16 specs.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

I get what you are saying RR, the budget is definitely going to get tighter now, and we need to address all areas, not just power! I do think that NA would not be the best way to go however, since we already have a nice set of JE rods/pistons in there, why not go with the turbo since its already reinforced for it. So I say small turbo, like a GReddy kit or something, we should still have alot for wheels and suspension.

Maybe we should tackle the suspension, before we get into FI specifics?

Just a thought, I love my suspension set up right now, and aside from new rotors, or maybe some bigger brakes, I think its good as is. My setup was not too bad on the budget either, so just something to think about I guess.

redcivic - There is a reason he is a moderator.



Power gains from 1 car are not universal. :rolleyes:

Once again, anyone care to tell me how we got these 9.5:1 pistons?

Because some 11.0:1 pistons would be nice. That way, we could:

AEM CAI
DC Sports JDM 4-1 header
Some sort of exhaust
CTR intake cam
ITR exhaust cam
Toda gears
V-AFC

And tuning. Seems like that'd work out okay :D.

Sorry bro. They came with the engine. Like a package.

We already have the CTR cams..and i have heard Toda's are difficult to tune...

But..we'll make do with what we have!

So...i still say i/h/e call it a day...maybe a V-AFC and some tuning...if one is BENT on DRAG you can buy a damn nitrous system...:rolleyes: :D maybe some cam gears.....

O yeah..i can assure everyone that Jon does not do crack. He's a heroine man :D j/k j/k

Oh, so moderators know all then? Whatever. I may be new here son, but I have owned modded imports since 92', and have owned and tuned 2 nissan Z's (82' Turbo, and a 90' TT), 1 93' Z28(blah!), have had two different turbo set-ups on my civic and two motors . I am probably the only 93' civic owner on this board that has actually owned his civic since it was new. I'm just saying that if the car is N/A with bolt-ons, it won't be fast. Period. Sounds to me like some of you guys just wanna build a show car that will only run with stock WRX's and such.

No, moderators do not no all.

But they do know something and it was implicated in your post that CivSiGuy knew nothing.
I defend my friends and especially when they are correct.

Are Civic TYpe-R cams bolt ons?
Is a 2.0L block bolt on?

Wow..i'd love to live in that world

Lets not get snippy or sidetracked by arguing, I think we all knew this thing would get into a heated discussion eventually. I think everyone has made valid points so far, so lets just discuss and see if we can come to a good compromise. Thats what I think we have set out to do, is set up a Civic that was good all around. Now, because of a limited budget, it will no doubt suffer in some areas more than others. The idea is to get the best bang for the buck, in all aspects, not just looks, not just power, and not just handling.

I think we must sit down and budget everything at once here. It does not seem like we can just go step by step, because by the end you know some things are going to get shorted. What we need is a plan boys! :D

Originally posted by Redcivic
Oh, so moderators know all then?

its your own opinion to form.

I'll tell you right now that I don't know a damn thing about car audio or suspension. Does that make everyone a lil happier?

And I stand behind countless dyno results, late nights the internet researching, and more time into this forum than 1/10 of the people here will ever see.

I don't stand behind the cars I've owned. Cuz I only have had 1. But I have a car background that is damn vast for a 17 year old. I'm 17 years old.. ok 17. Don't like it? Petition the owner of this place. igor@af - PM him and tell him you don't like a 17 year old kid who knows nothing running the 92+ Civic forum. But I can tell you right now for that 1 PM that you send him, he'll get 10 PM's sent that stand behind me for what I know and what I do for this place.

I don't mean to go off on people but when you just show up trying to be all hard behind the cars you have, it really hits a nerve cuz I know too many people with fine ass rides that don't even know what VTEC is or what that thing is that goes ppsssssst under their hood. I'm not saying that it is you, Redcivic, but I don't appreciate being singled out and getting called stupid over a post that makes complete sence and is correct to nearly every other person in this forum and everyone in the Honda community.

Posting something like "that sounds a lil high, could I see some dyno's to prove that" would be a tad bit more professional than "CivSiGuy, you are smoking crack if you think I/H/E gets you 25HP" and "You've been reading too many ads". See where I'm coming from?

If you want to get anywhere with these boards at all, let's be a lil respectful. Especially to the people who made this board what it is. OK?

to everyone else..

please don't think i'm going off on everyone. But lets try to work it out as a group. The above post shows what can go on when people start getting all stupid with other people. and i'm gonna throw the redflag on my own post with this..
http://www.automotiveforums.com/kris/kris/+junk/arguing.jpg

learn from what I just did.. and lets all try to get along.

I will post a poll tomorrow if things mellow a bit

I totally did not see the CTR cams. My bad.

Okay then...how about I/H/E and a 75 shot? Nitrous = power and show appeal.

Originally posted by delsolguy
I totally did not see the CTR cams. My bad.

Okay then...how about I/H/E and a 75 shot? Nitrous = power and show appeal.

i dunno man.. the more I think about it. $3,000 for a turbo. Sparq can get us competition ready on ICE for less than $2,000. We have alot more money to play with than we think. Besides, NOS runs out.. turbo power doesnt.

Originally posted by CivSiGuy


i dunno man.. the more I think about it. $3,000 for a turbo. Sparq can get us competition ready on ICE for less than $2,000. We have alot more money to play with than we think. Besides, NOS runs out.. turbo power doesnt.

a brilliant flash of light occured, and the seas began to calm, the skys removed themselves of clouds. behold the vision of absolut truth stands at the gates of your reality

thank you. cause three grand is not biblical in stature to the relative cost of engine upogrades.

it just amazing to me that day after day we bitch and moan about our cars being so slow and always dream that we can run wiht the best of them and at the point of opportunity we give it all up so we can continure to look good. show is great but overlooking the basic need for speed is painfully wrong. to skimp of the one thing that makes us the most hated group of car owners only plays to the crowd like it has done so many times before. and we wonder why domestic guys hate us so much....its because we comprimise our bite for more bark. 3000 is a small price to pay for the personal gratification that will be rewarded in the end.....the ends truely do justify the means. but damn, now we wont be able to get a our body kit molded, or get a set of volk's.

11,500 - 3,000 = 8500 if you cant bling your ride out for 8500 then something is seriously wrong.

I love You guys:D This kind of stuff is what it's all about. Oh, and I just want to say Amen to i like naked girls on the previous post.

No offense to anyone especially my friend Rick here but I'd like to politely give my opinion on that and then I'll agree to whatever the majority goes with.

I wouldn't mind at all getting a turbo for this thing but like I said before, I don't want to make compromises. Most of us may bitch and moan about how our cars are slow because we run 17 second 1320 times. We ALREADY have a high 13 second car here. I can garauntee you that if everyone in this forum had a 13 second car, they'd be ALOT less bitching and more big-headedness about how they can beat so and so. Like you said rick, you're happy, although you wouldn't mind more. Cause you already have a decently quick car. As I've always said, if you want to run with the best, don't start with the worst.

If I had a 13sec civic as my daily driver, I'd be tha happiest fucker in this county. I'd enjoy seeing the faces of surprise and delight everyday as I'd meet or beat most f-bodies, lightnings, stangs, ect. I even know of some stang/camaro clubs that would actually let me join. Run with stock WRX's? Damn, an NA economy car can run with a turbocharged up-the-ass 4wd sports car. If you ask me, that ain't that fuck'n bad.

The reason I'm not obsessing about speed with any civic is because I know it's place in the food chain. If I had money and wanted speed, I'd start with a better car.

Now that I'm at peace, let's just get on with voting. :)

Okay, I read back and I think I found the info on this CRVTEC motor but correct me if I'm wrong.


225HP right or wrong? Is it the CRVtec Dominator? Can someone post the exact specs.


And this whole time I'm thinking it's just regular frankenstein with CTR Cams, and JE pistons and rods. I apologize. I was thinking 180 or so HP on this motor. Yeah, I think a 225HP civic is a good start and could be quick if we don't go wild on ICE and interior.

I'd like a bit more info on the motor. I reread the last Chapter, but apparently I'm still missing something. Who are we buying this engine from? Why can't we specify what internals we're getting?

what are the damn specs on this engine....I need one of you bastards to fill me in:finger:

Hey johny boy...where are you? :)

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
Hey johny boy...where are you? :)

Work..he'll be here later..

But..i think I can give some specs:

B20B block (i am correct in 'B' right?)
B17A crank (RR - you should be able to devine the R/S ratio from that I'm guessing)
9.5:1 CR - crap we lowered it! I'm with SolGuy WHY DIDN'T WE GET TO CHOOSE OUR CR?!?!?!?!??!!?!
CTR cams :D which i think was good - but with the lowered CR we're stupid....
B16A head - 'nuff said

So......I'm guessing we're at around...195@fly -- just because we don't really have a NA-built CRVTEC. If we got some higher CR pistons...even 10.6:1 We'd be very happy!

I guess we'll have to wait for CivSiGuy...I'm still curious on this:

This motor will have to be built. If we're getting new rods and pistons, WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE CHOOSE WHAT WE WANT??? *fuming* :mad:

Ok Ok calm down...there. :D

Okay, I just got a quote from importbuilders.com. $8,500.00 for this:

Package 2: Hydro LS/VTEC High Performance Changeover.
Comes with bran new axles, shift linkage, ECU, wire harness, stock mounts, complete motor. Tranny included.
This is a HIGH PERFORMANCE total rebuild package for those of you that are sick of getting used motors that don't last. This package includes Import Builders completely revamping the motor. New Probe Racing Forged Pistons 81.5MM, new Probe Racing Ultralite Rods, balanced crank, new bearings, new oil pump, new water pump, new timing belt, new alternator belt, new high performance valve train, new high performance cams, new adjustable cam gears, Mugen chipped ECU 9500 RPM rev limit OBD1, Fuel regulator, gauge, DC 4-1 JDM header, Iceman Intake, ITR intake manifold, new valve seals, new head gasket, new valve cover gasket, and new 6 puck Hyper clutch with new bearing. Shipping included.


That is absolutely ridiculous! $8,500.00 for 195WHP? Shit, I could buy a Type-R motor for $5,000.00, and Turbo charge it with the extra $3,500.00 I save. So, how much did we really pay for this CRVtec?

Originally posted by VTEC_boi
B17A crank (RR - you should be able to devine the R/S ratio from that I'm guessing)

It's extremely close to 1.75.

Ok I guess we need to take another look at our engine particulars. It was assumed for me this would stay NA. In my slightly buzzed state last night I was thinking of all these things and if we DO go turbo, we can keep the stock crank and use the money for other things.

We agreed on the engine but not the engine specifics. We need to take a look at the engine specifics as well. Like the rods and pistons for example.

But the 9.5:1 pistons are not a bad choice at for forced induction. If we go super low, we definitly FEEL the turbolag. But with higher comps, it'll slightly limit our top end but increase low end. But for NA applications, yeah 11.0:1 isn't such a bad choice.

For me it's just whether we should keep the 17 crank and that will inturn determine our rod choice.

So it seems to me that Chapter 3 ended a bit abruptly. :huh:

Ya, maybe we oversimplified this whole thing.

As far as the 9.5:1 CR for turbo, it may limit the top end like RR said, but I think a small turbo with low boost would be easier on our budget, and easier to deal with and manage. Our horsepower numbers are decent to begin with, so a little boost should make it very sweet. Id like to see a dyno on one of these engines, what kind of power are they making under the curve? Also, I thought this was the ultimate street Civic, something the common daily driver would be running, so an all out dragger isnt necessary, right?

Just to be sure, after the car and the CR-VTEC, how much money do we have left? I also had another idea, setting aside money to an "Ah, fuck!" fund. You know, something always seems to go wrong, and extra parts or service may need to be purchased....I dunno, depends on how real you want this to be I guess. Just an idea, if anyone cares. :D

here's the poll

Ok...so despite my whining I guess that we can't change the 9.5:1 comp ratio?

If we could, I'd be all for I/H/E and N20. But...since we can't...this makes the decision much harder.

de rev hard stage 2 ownz j00

Originally posted by piscorpio
Lets not get snippy or sidetracked by arguing, I think we all knew this thing would get into a heated discussion eventually. I think everyone has made valid points so far, so lets just discuss and see if we can come to a good compromise. Thats what I think we have set out to do, is set up a Civic that was good all around. Now, because of a limited budget, it will no doubt suffer in some areas more than others. The idea is to get the best bang for the buck, in all aspects, not just looks, not just power, and not just handling.

I think we must sit down and budget everything at once here. It does not seem like we can just go step by step, because by the end you know some things are going to get shorted. What we need is a plan boys! :D

Thats what I'd say. We do need to have a plan...we need to allot a certain amount of green for each step. We still have 4 stages to go after this one. I think moderation is the key. For example, we dont need a top of the line deluxe stereo with a 500 dollar head...something decent will work. Also, most stages wont cost as much money as what this one, and the motor stages are costing us (about 4,000 a piece). Wheels, tires, and suspension is about 4000 as well, but the interior, body kit and such shouldnt cost over 4000 (In my opinion)

If you disagree with anything i've said, please be kind...:D

and if that doesnt work, then fuck you:flipa:

oh, and btw...put me in for a vortech supercharger...:p

Is the DRAG and Revhard our only turbo options? What else can fit this thing? This is where I get lost when it comes to this CR-VTEC engine. :(
I was hoping for a smaller cheaper turbo option (like the GReddy for Si's, you can get the kit and intercooler for less than the DRAG or Revhard on modacar.com...Im sure if I shop around I could find it even cheaper). And I am still skeptical when it comes to those kits, I sometimes think you could call Turbonetics and order up your own custom kit for cheaper. (Just a thought, I really have not tried.)

Compared the the DRAG turbo, my previous JRSC idea just totally sucks :rolleyes: . Lets get the DRAG kit and run stock boost ^_^.

let me just remind anyone voting for the vortech or jrsc with nos that this will most likely be a dangerous option as it will put us over the brink of the fuel systems capabilities.

And a standalone EMS is not an option with our budget.

I vote for I/H/E w/N20. Cheap and quick.

poll will close tomorrow evening

C'mon Rev Hard!!! GOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hit ur 'nahs' button :D hahahhahahahaha

Go with tha Drag Turbo! With $8000 left there will be plenty of money to do the rest of the mods. There's what only Exterior (wing and body kit), Interior (Seats, sound system, Monster tach etc). Plenty of money to go around (depending on what products we get) :D:D:D!

i/h/e with NOS for $1500

DRAG Turbo is victorious.... on to part 5