best Turbo n Supercharger out?


Djgorow
05-19-2004, 12:51 AM
i've been searchin awhile to find the best turbo or supercharger to my 04 Z, i can't seem to make up my mind about which one to get a turbo or supercharger, and which ones are the best at a reasonable price...can anyone give me some numbers...

civ88
05-23-2004, 09:54 AM
just go here (http://www.hopupracing.com/enpe.html) and you'll find some stuff to help ya out some

omega_2099
06-06-2004, 01:33 AM
Check out this kit for the Z!!!!! It is the hottest kit i have found for the 350z.......

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/350z/350z.htm

I cant wait till september when it is supposed to be released. I am in the process of buying a track model 350z and want that kit to be one of the first mods!!!!!!!

LancasterWannaBe
06-06-2004, 05:40 AM
Procharger is the way to go IMO.
It's an intercooled centrifugal supercharger setup.
Unfortunately, with the Z's high compression you can't boost very high on pump gas. If you were willing to add 104+ octane additive every time you fill that 20 gal tank you could do better... :smokin:

350Z SuperCharger (http://www.procharger.com/SPORT_COMPACT/sport_compact.shtml)

I'd also go with anything JWT had to offer as far as intake and exhaust systems go. I believe they make a pop charger system for the intake.

JWT (http://www.jimwolftechnology.com)

NerveAgent
06-18-2004, 04:48 AM
The GReddy Twin Turbo 350Z kit.

Preliminary Specs:

Standard Boost - 5.6
Compressor - TD05H 18G (2)
Horsepower - 334.2 whp
Torque - 339.2

Includes Intercooler

this costs about 6 'gs though.

pnoiSR20
06-18-2004, 09:24 PM
The Greddy TT kit period. NerveAgent is rite...it does go 4 like 6 g's.

LancasterWannaBe
06-19-2004, 08:32 AM
Procharger advertises a 55% - 60% hp increase with their kit.
That would be ~440 - 460 FHP. (~ 380 WHP with 15% DT loss)

Although from what I've read about the AF Z car, the Vortech kit sounds pretty damn good also.

And to think, all you need is money :iceslolan

Does someone make a piston set specifically for lowering the Z's CR?
What is it with all the old turbo cars comming back NA??
Even the next supra is supposed to be NA.

But I guess if it works...

j_greene
07-08-2004, 08:45 PM
look at the dyno's. The centrifugal does not make quick boost while greddy TT kit will. The TT will make 20 hp more through the power range untill 5500 rpms when the supercharger passes it up. tubo is the way to go. You can tune it for race and then putin around town with a boost controller. turbo is the way to go.

LancasterWannaBe
07-08-2004, 11:45 PM
... yea but with turbos, there's no boost bellow like 3000 revs or so...
And that's assuming they're ball bearing turbos.

Also a centrifugal supercharger would only take about 8 hrs to install or remove incase you blow your engine and don't want to tell nissan that you had a blower on it. Good luck removing a heavily used turbo exhaust manifold, the turbo, all the oil lines, air ducting, and electronics in 8 hrs.

With the turbo kits, you have to use a turbo timer to shut off your car(or you really should unless you're quite patient). Do these kits include an electronic boost controler or do you have to go out and spend the additional $600?

Where are these dynomometer charts you're talking about? Please post a link because I'm interested.

I just think a centrifugal supercharger kit is the best way to go, mostly because it could be removed quickly incase of a blown engine :evillol:

ArthurKing
07-09-2004, 12:42 AM
I think it depends on what you want...
I dont claim to know all there is to know about FI, but isnt a supercharger a smoother ride? and Turbos have that turbo lag before blasting off?
Anyways, i hear so much about the Greddy TT, its really the best way to go.
I do wanna see how the air power system turns out though...

LancasterWannaBe
07-09-2004, 01:51 AM
A supercharger will produce the same boost acrpss the entire RPM range, so in that regard yes, it is smoother.

Yeah Turbo's have some lag to them, but it doesn't really matter when you're racing since you'll be reving high the whole time. I must say it is cool to hit that magic spot when the turbo(s) really start producig power - it's like a kick in the seat.

I would go with a supercharger because as mentioned above, it would be easier to remove, but I also would want a new car very streetable and "smooth" if I paid $32K for it.

All this goes to say that I agree with you in that it really just matters what you want.

j_greene
07-09-2004, 04:37 PM
http://www.importtuner.com/features/0406it_projektz/

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/364207

the first is with the TT kit and second w/ vortech S/C w/ instercooler. Look at power to the ground at 5000 rpms.

Centrifugal S/C do not make instant power. Roots or twin screw styles do (jackson racing/stillen/kenne bell). A TT system w/ properly sized turbos will make power quicker then a centrifugal SC. A boost controller costs 300. Also one other thing to consider other the horsepower #'s is how much boost does it take to get those numbers. The Greddy TT I believe is putting out far less Psi than any other forced induction kit, which gives it room for improvement. However the SC are much cheaper. It just depends on how far you want to go.

j_greene
07-09-2004, 04:51 PM
procharger
280x1.60(60%)=448
448x.82(18%loss to wheels) = 367@7psi

greddy = 347@5.5psi
*makes more power sooner and if you were to bring the boost to 7 psi it would make more then 367 at the wheels.

LancasterWannaBe
07-17-2004, 06:24 PM
But what kind of heat is generated at 5.5 psi? Greddy probably set the system at 5.5 lbs for a reason.

One could also install a smaller pulley with better cooling abilities / higher octane fuels.

The question is, CAN you raise intake pressure without damage?

j_greene
07-19-2004, 08:23 PM
They do it to keep it street legal. Turbos are harder to pass emmssions. The turbos in the kit can easily handle 15- 20lbs of boost. I have no idea how huch the motor can handle with the stock compression. The superchargers are nice and cheap but how many 700 hp S/C 350's are out there. That is an extreme example but at that level they use turbos and there is a reason for it. They are more effiecient. I am sure the cooling system can handle the TT kit unless you are running @ Daytona at redline for a couple of hours.

ArthurKing
07-20-2004, 06:36 PM
I dont know any 700HP turbos either...

j_greene
07-20-2004, 08:30 PM
I dont know any 700HP turbos either...

Well then check this out
http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/130_0406_350z/

again this is the extreme end of the tuning spectrum and they are using turbos.

LancasterWannaBe
07-21-2004, 06:55 PM
and on that site it says,

"Well, for starters, the engine's not even a VQ35; it's a VQ30 out of a Nissan Gloria"

That motor also turns 8000 RPM, so a lot of the HP is revs, not torque.

IMO, the best turbo or S/C out there for my street car would also be street legal.

longlivetheZ
07-29-2004, 12:42 AM
Guys...go the the "forced induction" forum and read the "supercharger vs. turbo" thread. A properly tuned, well thought out turbo system will easily out perform a supercharger system. If you read the drawbacks of a S/C system vs a turbo system, you wouldn't even think twice. It takes ~30 hp to turn a S/C and you have to pop the hood and change pullies to change the boost, amongst other things...no thanks. With turbos, all you have to do is turn a knob from your driver's seat. The best boost controller out right now (that I know of, at least) is the Greddy Profec B Spec II and it can be had for ~300 bucks or less off ebay. And turbo timers...really cheap in the grand scheme of things.

Turbo...the only way to go.

Here's a link to the "Forced induction - Turbo vs. Supercharger (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=244431) " thread. Thought I'd save you guys the trouble of finding it. READ IT ALL!! IT'S VERY informative and you'll NEVER think about putting a belt/gear driven S/C on ANYTHING EVER AGAIN!

LancasterWannaBe
07-29-2004, 05:56 AM
it takes 30 plus hp to turn a roots type blower, not a centrifugal s/c.

I don't disagree that turbo is better for max power, but how much boost are you really going to give a brand new car? Common people, the Z runs a 10.3 C/R, you can't just turn up the boost unless you're running some high octane fuels, water injection, or using CO2 by the Kg on a regular basis. If you're going to race your Z all the time, then by all means, lower the c/r, run methanol, and boost the hell out of it :naughty:. But for everyone else, you'll just have to live with low boost.

Now it was also said that the centrifugal s/c will not make "instant power". No Sh*t folks, power increases with RPM so nothing will make "instant power," it's the torque curve we're concerned with.
Looking at the charts that we were given earlier (thnx j_greene ), It looks like the greddy kit will produce more torque at low to mid RPM, but it rolls off a lot, further in the RPM band. Take a look at it, it just wimps out after 5k!

Also, while the low end torque is good, you will not benefit from it much while "sportily driving with fellow cars" (AKA street racing) since you'll be reving high most of the time. I personally would prefer the s/c's torque curve for the occasional sporty drive over the turbo kits (that I've seen) any day.

If I had a race car, I would rather have some good turbos any day, but for a street daily driver car, I'd go s/c. Besides - like I said before - if you blow your engine, you can quickly take the s/c kit off and tow your car back to Nissan to take advantage of that good old warranty...
I really don't think you'd be able to do that with any turbo kit.

About the EBCs and turbo timers on ebay. If you want to trust your car to the "word" of a fellow ebay seller, go right ahead man :icon16: whatever floats your boat. But used or not, you will NOT be able to simply "turn a knob from your driver's seat" and make a lot more power.

longlivetheZ
07-29-2004, 04:06 PM
it takes 30 plus hp to turn a roots type blower, not a centrifugal s/c.

Sorry...let me clarify that statement a bit. I left something out before. It takes 30 hp PER EVERY 100 HP to turn a roots S/C. That means you're losing 90 HORSEPOWER just to the S/C on a 300hp engine. That sucks, man...to hell with that.

I don't disagree that turbo is better for max power, but how much boost are you really going to give a brand new car? Common people, the Z runs a 10.3 C/R, you can't just turn up the boost unless you're running some high octane fuels, water injection, or using CO2 by the Kg on a regular basis. If you're going to race your Z all the time, then by all means, lower the c/r, run methanol, and boost the hell out of it :naughty:. But for everyone else, you'll just have to live with low boost.

Turbos make S/Cs obsolete because a turbo system can be tailored to the car, track (if applicable), weather conditions, current mods, competition, etc. and can be made to make any kind of torque curve you want at any rpm you want. You want low end power, change out the turbine or compressor wheels and viola...you want insane power at high rpm, get the biggest turbo you can find and shove that under your hood...there ya go...now you're like this 358ci small-block Chevy running 10.0:1 compression, a single large-frame Innovative GTB88 turbo and making over 1,400 hp on C-16 race gas. Weren't you just complaining about how little boost you could run with a 10.3 comp ratio? So much for that. And even if you don't wanna run C-16, I'm sure it does juuuuuuuust fine with regular high octane if you back off the boost, which is as easy as turning a knob inside the car if you have the right kind of B/C. Sure, it probably won't run 1,400 hp on pump gas, but it'd still be painful.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/13360turbo5.jpg

ANYTHING is possible with turbos. They're far more versatile, practical, and have infinate potential when used properly...S/Cs just....well....aren't.

Now it was also said that the centrifugal s/c will not make "instant power". No Sh*t folks, power increases with RPM so nothing will make "instant power," it's the torque curve we're concerned with.

That's another thing that sucks about S/Cs...they're only RPM dependant. Turbos are RPM and load dependant. I'm going to post a long quote about this from that thread I posted a link to regarding this. I'll shorten it as much as possible. READ IT!

Finally, turbos run proportional to demand. What I’m getting at is that compressor speed is dependent on airflow, which comes from two main variables: engine rpm and throttle position, if you will. Now, a belt-driven blower car’s compressor speed is dependent on only one variable: rpm. So why care? Because when you’re just maintaining speed on flat and level ground, trying to make some mileage, a turbo car’s compressors are going very slowly and hence don’t increase pressure before the throttle body. But a belt-driven blower car has no idea what the throttle position is; the compressor is simply geared to the crankshaft, so it’s spinning much faster and making, say 2 psi in our example here. (And if it’s a Roots-type blower, it’s making 6, 8, or even 10 psi!)

So what do you do? You have to back out of the throttle even more. That means throttling losses are up (bad for mileage), and you’re pumping hot compressed air through your intercooler all day if you have one, and you’re using crankshaft horsepower to compress the air—then throttling it back anyway!

What a waste.

But used or not, you will NOT be able to simply "turn a knob from your driver's seat" and make a lot more power.

Eh...how do you figure? You're in the car, you reach over to your boost controller, flip it to your high boost setting, more boost = more power...

LancasterWannaBe
07-30-2004, 01:00 AM
Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 PSI (101.33 KPa). When boosting 7 PSI (0.478 atm), a centrifugal setup shows gains of 55%-60% HP on the Z. So with a 47.8% increase in manifold pressure - meaning ~47.8% increase in fuel combustion, the car gains 55%-60% percent power.

So now I'm going to do some math.
I want to figure the approximate power lost in rotating the S/C turbine.

In theory, the crank power levels are as follows:

Turbo: ([14.7 + 5.5]/14.7)*287HP = 394.38 HP
S/C: ([14.7 + 7]/14.7)*287 = 423.67 HP

Now for the difference of percent power sent to the wheels:

([347/394.38] - [367/423.67])*100% = 1.36%

The centrifugal supercharger setup loses 1.36% additional power before the wheels.

So: 0.0136*423.67HP = 5.77HP.
This is the power required to turn the S/C turbine. :smokin:
(yeah that would be a little less than 90HP)


As for the rest....

You just restated what I had already posted.

Higher compression + High Boost needs higher octane fuels.
I think everyone here knows this already. I'm also sure you're all aware that a centrifugal s/c turbine can also be changed...

As I said before, "I don't disagree that turbo is better for max power." In fact if I had the money to void my warranty (and to own a Z :icon16:) I would totally go with turbos. They're not just more advanced, they're more thermally efficient. Hell, some cars have even shown increases in gas mileage when going with turbocharger setups that weren't meant for racing.

The whole reason turbochargers have advanced so much is because of the studies of turbine engines. If I were to mention the Garrett JFS100 or a Gnome T58, what would you all have assumed I was talking about? Trust me, I am quite aware that turbos are more advanced.

But, back to the voiding a warranty issue. I would want to have the option of easily removing my kit if something went wrong. Procharger kit means:

* no oil line
* no exhaust mods
* no cutting anything to make the ducting fit
* no electronics to wire
* no need drill holes for boost gauges or gauge wireing

Now since this has gotten to be such a big discussion, why doesn't someone ask about the AF Z? There's a s/c in that.

I guess my whole point is that the "best Turbo n Supercharger out" might not be the best because it makes the most power. I might just be the most driveable.

Now all said and done, I really DO wish the Z had come turbocharged from the factory. All I can say is the 05 supra better!

longlivetheZ
07-30-2004, 07:48 PM
Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 PSI (101.33 KPa). When boosting 7 PSI (0.478 atm), a centrifugal setup shows gains of 55%-60% HP on the Z. So with a 47.8% increase in manifold pressure - meaning ~47.8% increase in fuel combustion, the car gains 55%-60% percent power.

So now I'm going to do some math.
I want to figure the approximate power lost in rotating the S/C turbine.

In theory, the crank power levels are as follows:

Turbo: ([14.7 + 5.5]/14.7)*287HP = 394.38 HP
S/C: ([14.7 + 7]/14.7)*287 = 423.67 HP

Now for the difference of percent power sent to the wheels:

([347/394.38] - [367/423.67])*100% = 1.36%

The centrifugal supercharger setup loses 1.36% additional power before the wheels.

So: 0.0136*423.67HP = 5.77HP.
This is the power required to turn the S/C turbine. :smokin:
(yeah that would be a little less than 90HP)

I give you props for the math approach. I like that. I'm not even going to ATTEMPT to go through it all right now cuz I've been drinking all day and I'm leaving soon, but I will later.

I'm also sure you're all aware that a centrifugal s/c turbine can also be changed...

You mean compressor...there is no turbine on a belt or gear driven S/C. That's true, but you have more size and variation options (many more when you start playing with the turbine side as well as the compressor side) with turbos. Due to this versatility, turbos can be set up MANY different ways and can match and exceed a S/C efficiency and/or power out put under any circumstances or conditions. Plus, a turbo'd car will usually get better milage than a S/C due to the turbos being load dependant...not only RPM dependant.

As for the warranty issue. That's kinda up to whoever comes across this dilemma. I wouldn't really consider it because I couln't imagine the techs at the dealership NOT being able to tell there was a S/C on there...if nothing else, they'd probably be able to tell where bolts and screws were removed and turned and so on.

LancasterWannaBe
07-30-2004, 08:25 PM
You mean compressor...

:bricks1: Yeah my bad.

As for the warranty issue. That's kinda up to whoever comes across this dilemma. I wouldn't really consider it because I couln't imagine the techs at the dealership NOT being able to tell there was a S/C on there...if nothing else, they'd probably be able to tell where bolts and screws were removed and turned and so on.

I know a guy with a 01 dodge 5.9 R/T. He bolted a supercharger onto it and sure enough - due in part to dodge's amaizing engineering abilities *sarcasm* - he blew the engine. I don't recall what went wrong, but it was one of those small things that wrecks everything - you know, a dodge thing :lol2: ...

Anyway, he removed the entire kit carefully and took the truck back to dodge. The techs didn't notice anything, so he got a new motor.

I'm sure you could do the same thing with a turbo kit, but it would be so much harder. I dunno, if I end up getting a Z, maybe I'll turbo it also since Nissan are built better than dodge.

Does anyone on this board have a turbo'd 350Z? If so, I'd like to hear what they have to say, especially if they did the work installing it.

LancasterWannaBe
07-30-2004, 10:19 PM
How much boost are the twin TD05H 18G turbo's capable of when used with the VQ35?

Assuming you ran with some 104+ octane boosters or something (assume detonation is not a problem), how hard could you push them?

Also, how is the mileage affected with the piggy back comp controlling the car?

chippowzer
07-31-2004, 09:24 PM
whats better a 5 speed or 6 speed for drag

longlivetheZ
08-01-2004, 04:37 PM
Yo lancaster...look up the Greddy 350ZTT...friggin awesome. Running mid 4 seconds to 60mph on VERY low boost...that should give you some idea of what a TT'd VQ35 is capable of.

whats better a 5 speed or 6 speed for drag

Depends on the car's power output and the gear ratios being used. A race designed auto trans is better in some ways...look at the Buick Grand National...

How much boost are the twin TD05H 18G turbo's capable of when used with the VQ35?

I'm not sure...I'll try to find out.

Assuming you ran with some 104+ octane boosters or something (assume detonation is not a problem), how hard could you push them?

Depends on how much boost the turbos are capable of.

Also, how is the mileage affected with the piggy back comp controlling the car?

Turbos have the potential to increase a car's mileage if the driver stays out of the throttle. Again...it depends on the driver.

Shabbyflamingo
08-12-2004, 02:04 AM
Undoubtly APS TT kit and intracooler are the most powerful TT for a Z. They posted something like 432HP from stock Z. Thats nuts! I plan on saving up for a good little bit to get that 7,000 bone kit but the first time I hit 3,000 RPMs I just know Im gunna have to re-apolster my seats..lol

Add your comment to this topic!