2003 bmw m3 vs 04 cadillac cts-v

which would you rather have? performance is about the same the caddy runs 13.4 in the 1320 same with the m3. skidpad is .87 for the m3, and .87 for the caddy, we all know both are very luxorious. so pick :smile:

http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/Oto-Xe-may/2003/04/3B9C6F0D/CTS-V1B.jpg

http://www.engine-power.com/img/specs/bmw_m3_01.jpg

Well since they are eachothers equal as far as performance goes.........The M3; better looking, less doors and I trust that the handling would suit me far more than that of the CTS (Which is relatively impressive in lowly 3.2 form)

you know i think i might go with the caddy just to be a little diff from the crowd as far as performance. i doubt there's gonna be lots of caddys at the street races lol, but yeah i'd try the cts-v also because of the nice sedan looking image with 4 doors and you have no clue that i'd out run your 350Z. no what i mean, just almost a sleeper in manys eyes plus i'm a fan of the caddilacs interior and always have been, nice comfortable car, never sat in this one yet but i could imagine.

M3. Every day of the week, and twice on sunday.

M3. Every day of the week, and twice on sunday.


Being from Detroit I'd hate to agree with but I'm going to. The design team at Cadillac is smokin' crack cause that dam thing is ugly! The BMW is gorgeous though.

i like the styling of both of the cars, but it comes down to the doors. so i would take the m3. but it will still be fun to pull up to a 50th anniversary corvette and be able to keep up with him in a sedan. the look on his face would be the greatest ever.

What the hell do you call that silver "thing" It looks something like a dried up turd with 4 Licorice allsorts stuck one at each corner, not very well proportioned, that styling is.

If it's not faster than the M3, then why bother???


So yeah, the M3 thanks, in any color but that putrid Yellow.

From the C&D comparison the M3 was slightly faster than the CTS-V but the CTS-V was faster than the M5. Personally I would go with the M3 simply because you just cannot say no to BMW engineering. I drove my friends dad's M3 and everything about it is perfect. On the other hand its hard to say no to a big V8 and I dunno about where you people live but I know CTS-V's are extremely rare in my area.





DM

Welcome to the forums Mason :)

I'd have to pick the M3 based on looks. As a side note - Isn't the CTS-V more comparible (in performance) to the M5 then M3?













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i'd go m3. a 6 cylinder making 67 less hp than the 5.7L caddy but running similar times if not better.

bmw m3 333hp 0-60 in 5.0 1320 in 13.5@105 top speed 155mph
cadillac cts-v 400hp 0-60 5.0 1320 13.4@109 top speed 163mph
bmw m5 394hp 0-60 4.8 1320 in 13.3@108 top speed 155mph

these are stats from road and track, seems as if that cts-v is a nice highway runner

Would I rather a BMW or a Caddy? You've got to be kidding.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!

Let me catch my breath.

I guess the equivalent of that is the Holden HSV 300 GTS here in Australia. That or an M3? Do you really have to ask?

Would I rather a BMW or a Caddy? You've got to be kidding.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!

Let me catch my breath.

I guess the equivalent of that is the Holden HSV 300 GTS here in Australia. That or an M3? Do you really have to ask?
They are actually dauntingly similar to the HSV- same engine, same gearbox, similar layout and design.

Only difference is the styling and the luxurious nature of the CTS.

don't you mean the "LACK OF STYLING"? I mean it's a matter of personal taste but the GTS looks a lot better to me than that pile of crap in the picture.

Anyway, pushrods? Please. GM have really got to get with the times. Even Ford uses OHC's now. The new BA Falcon XR6 turbo is the only car in Ford and GM's entire range I respect. I hate V8's. Especially that 5.7L block of garbage from the 'Vette they shove in everything.

yeah you know those pesky pushrods.

Who wants a 5.7 ltr with 29 mpg gas milaeage and 350hp.

I woudl much rather take my 4.6 SOHC with 260 hp and 25mpg

No questions there.

Sorry, must correct myself. I love the DB9. But I know for a fact that Dr Ulrich Bez did not allow anyone from parent company Ford to meddle in the project. Otherwise I would never consider it.

I dont know about the CTS Type V man...It did get beat by a saturn Ion Redline around the Nurburgring by a minute so how hot can it be?

The stats between the CTS-V and the M3 are about the same, but the true beauty of BMWs lies not in power or torque, but in its handling. I've said it before and i'll say it again, unless its a Porsche, nothing handles like a BMW. 1/4 mile times and 0-60 are great on both cars, but on a track you would look rediculous driving a Caddilac, even the CTS-V against a M3.

Besides being a better track car, the BMW will simply be more fun on the road then a CTS-V. I see the CTS as a closer competitor to the M5 since it has more of a family car image then the sporty M3. The only people I could see buying a CTS-V are the "hardcore must buy American" types, men whos wives want a 4 door instead of a 2, or confused old people.

That Cadillac is incredibly ugly, I could not in good concience even consider one of those.

I'd take the M3.

Sorry, must correct myself. I love the DB9. But I know for a fact that Dr Ulrich Bez did not allow anyone from parent company Ford to meddle in the project. Otherwise I would never consider it.


First off I love the 5.7 vette block it kicks ass! Second sorry you hate anything let alone V-8s. As far as Aston Martin goes Ford does a good job of letting it's satelites do what they want I don't think Bez had any say so. Unlike though I'd hate to say it GM who had every chance to make Lotus into something but instead chose to force them to make an Isuzu based Lotus (complete with a joke front drive chassis). I personally choose the BMW because the Caddy is (as all current caddies are) uglier than the bastard children of Zsa Zsa Gabor and the Elephant man. Even if you hate V-8s don't go talkin' about anything FWD, I love V-8s (not all) however there are many non V-8s that I like as well the Buick turbo 3.8-4.1, Ford 2.3 turbo 4, any Ford Cosworth 4, Ford Aussie I-6s OHC, Ford SHO 3.0 Vulcan, the new GM I-4-5-6 family found in the trailblazer and Colorado, and the Mazda rotaries 12A & 13B to name a few. A good engine is a good engine my friend.

And how do you define good Sanchez?

The engines I admire are:

S70/2 (BMW built for the McLaren F1), V12
S54 in the E46 M3, inline 6
RB26 from the R33 and R34, inline 6 TT
2JZ from the Supra, inline 6 TT
B16B from the Honda Civic EK-9 Type R, inline 4
M96/03 B6 from the 996 Carrera, flat boxer 6
F140 from the Enzo, V12
5.7L V10 from the Carrera GT (don't know the designation)

How do they compare to your list?

I do hate V8's. And I admit my hatred of ALL V8's is irrational. They just typify the "Bigger capacity more power and forget better engineering" mentality of Detroit muscle cars.

I won't ever consider a 360 Modena or the current M5 because they're V8's. Even though their engines are works of art. But I'm happy in my irrationality.

However, when it comes to the 5.7L V8 from the Vette, don't get me started. The M3 has a 3.2L NA inline 6 that produces 343 bhp (Aus spec) and is far more fuel efficient. It's even more reliable. How can you compare the engineering?

And looking at Munich v.s. Detroit in the future, the new Viper has a 8.3L V10 that produces 500 bhp. The M5 will have a 5L V10 that does the same. 3.3L difference, that's a decent sized whole other engine.

kudos to you v8slayer (except the ferrari part). that is the main reason why i dont like american muscle, they have to have big engines to get power. like ferrari is making a 4.0-4.3 L engine and it will make around 500hp for their next mid-engine exotic, and then you look at the new ford gt with a 5.4L supercharged engine that only makes 500hp, that is kind of sad if you ask me.

kudos to you v8slayer (except the ferrari part). that is the main reason why i dont like american muscle, they have to have big engines to get power. like ferrari is making a 4.0-4.3 L engine and it will make around 500hp for their next mid-engine exotic, and then you look at the new ford gt with a 5.4L supercharged engine that only makes 500hp, that is kind of sad if you ask me.

First off the GT makes much more than 500hp they just say 500, and yes I agree with the old Detroit mentality of making it bigger to get more horsepower was one I didn't agree with either. However now they're getting tuned over with modern technology and brought up to date. The old days of some guy with a mullet saying let's just shove a 454 Chevy in it are over thankfully. I'm currently in the process of building an aluminim 351 Ford small block stroked to 454 displacement small block wieght (actually aluminium even lighter) with big block power. Now as far as good goes Mr. Slayer a good engine is a good engine period! BMW makes a very nice V8 found in their Z8, hadn't thought of V12s thought and assumed you hated anything with 8 or more cylinders (my bad). As far as those engines you mentioned I love the Supra 6's and Skyline 6's as well however I won't sport wood and do a dance when you drop their names like preteens of today.Ferrari makes some great V8s as well Austin Martin,Mercedes etc etc etc however something tells me you just mean V8s from red white and blue manufacturers. Oh yeah don't even get me started on reliability factor!? BMW!? I have a friend who is a BMW mechanic good lord valve problems galore my friend gets them in all the time, (Though BMW backs their products with excellent customer service I'll give them that) all the time my friend. Last but not least the engines you mentioned above for the most part are good (see I admit good when I see it) except the Honda, good for an everyday engine the kids around here though race them all the time and get run! In a word OVERRATED.

Hi everybody,i'm new here...
:newbie:
Sorry for my poor english,i' just an italian raw boy.
:naughty:
Are we talking about the E36 M3?
in my opinion also the 4door E36 m3 would be better than the cadillac cts,the cad probably could even be better on a highway or on a lamp-to-lamp acceleration...
to get the truth watch the nurburgring timings!
:grinyes:

M3

/no other words required

M3....don't like how the CTS-V have corners and are angled unlike the roundness of the M3

Well Sanchez, you see, good to me means engines that are well designed, that use state of the art technology to achieve maximum power and torque output. They strive to put that power and torque into usable revs. And they are reliable.

I live in Australia, so I have very little exposure to American cars. From what I hear, you don't want to compare their reliability against anyone's. When it comes to reliability, no one beats the Japanese. But please, when you knocked BMW's reliability, are you actually saying American cars have better reliability than BMW's? If that's how you feel, I don't think there's anything more to discuss. Because you wouldn't be from Earth. BTW, I've owned an E46 M3 for close to 2 years, touch wood, no problems. I also have a friend who's a BMW mechanic, and he raves about BMW engines.

And with regards to Detroit Muscle using "MODERN" technology? What do they have exactly? 4 valves per cylinder? Direct injection? Dry sump lubrication? Double Vanos? Twin clutch gear boxes? Quattro? DSG? FSI? Aluminium chasis or space frame? Carbon fibre? Dynamic drive? Active steering?

And lastly, you say they've gone away from the bigger capacity, more power mentality. So what's the new Viper, the Cien, the C16?

Well Sanchez, you see, good to me means engines that are well designed, that use state of the art technology to achieve maximum power and torque output. They strive to put that power and torque into usable revs. And they are reliable.

I live in Australia, so I have very little exposure to American cars. From what I hear, you don't want to compare their reliability against anyone's. When it comes to reliability, no one beats the Japanese. But please, when you knocked BMW's reliability, are you actually saying American cars have better reliability than BMW's? If that's how you feel, I don't think there's anything more to discuss. Because you wouldn't be from Earth. BTW, I've owned an E46 M3 for close to 2 years, touch wood, no problems. I also have a friend who's a BMW mechanic, and he raves about BMW engines.

And with regards to Detroit Muscle using "MODERN" technology? What do they have exactly? 4 valves per cylinder? Direct injection? Dry sump lubrication? Double Vanos? Twin clutch gear boxes? Quattro? DSG? FSI? Aluminium chasis or space frame? Carbon fibre? Dynamic drive? Active steering?

And lastly, you say they've gone away from the bigger capacity, more power mentality. So what's the new Viper, the Cien, the C16?


Not completely away from, adding technology to an modernizing as well as developing smaller engines in addition too (that means as well) The Cien? Have you seen a production Cien? or C16? Viper yes Ford GT = revolutionary space frame chasis, 4 valves, direct injection. Sorry your all over hating american cars my friend, and yes have a 99 F150 Ford truck 125,900 miles no problems. By the way having a carbon fiber front clip made for my 65 stang good stuff.

As well don't think you answered me about V8s from Mercedes, and your beloved BMW? You also seem to be a bit of an upity snob my friend, could be wrong you're most likely a hell of a guy.

how about this
http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fascination/bmwm/index.html?content=automobiles/classics/m3csl_2003.html

BMW M3 CSL (2003)
360hp NA from a 3.2 liter inline 6, about 112hp per liter, carbon fiber, n glass fiber all over inside n out, now that is a GREAT CAR

did you honestly just say "putting the power at usable revs"???

low end torque and hp means you don't have to down shift to get into the power band, there is always power.

with that, you don't need to rev high to get power...

FYI:
there are, and were, v8's that came stock in the 60's and now, that revved to over 7k. and made tons of power.
and were reliable.

get off your " i hate v8's kick".
it makes everything else you say sound completely irrational.

i'd hate to have a car with engine technology that has consistently wiped tracks with other cars' engines for over 50 years...
i'd hate it.

and come on, who wants a car with proven race winning history in its blood, let alone in its motor? riiiight.

You need to calm down a little flylwsi.

I believe getting a flat torque curve is always a priority in engine design. That's why the Porsche GT3 design team and the Audi LM design team both put a lot of effort into it and made a big deal out of it in their press releases. Walter Rohl cited the low end torque as one of the virtues of the Carrera GT.

I'm free to dislike and hate anything I feel like. V8 engines happen to be one of those things. Why that should matter to you is beyond my comprehension. If you're interested in having a polite debate about the virtues of various engines, I welcome that. If you're simply wanting to trash my opinion, I see no point in continuing.

FYI, the new 5L V10 in the M5 and M6 is rumoured to rev to 9000rpm and produce 500bhp. And I don't see any Ford or GM cars that comes remotely close to matching these kinds of figures.

And I love cars with race winning history. That's why the two manufacturers I respect the most are BMW and Porsche.

BTW, there is an American car I respect. The GT40.

My dear friend Sanchez.

What makes you think I'm a Snob? Just curious.

Anyway, I think I've already confessed to being irrational in my hatred of V8's. I've said the V8 in the current M5 (same engine as the Z8 I believe), and the V8 in the 360 Modena are works of art. But I dislike them just the same.

With regards to Mercedes, I have very little respect for their engines. Their 5L V8 only produce 306 bhp, where as BMW's new 4.4L V8 has 333bhp. I believe that until recently, they were still stuck on 3 valves per cylinder. And they've always had to resort to bigger capacity or forced induction to match BMW's power output.

Old E55 AMG, 5.4L V8 - 354 bhp
C32 AMG 3.2L supercharged - 354 bhp
New E55 AMG 5.4L V8 supercharged - 476 bhp

compare that to BMW
Old M5, 5L V8 - 400bhp
M3, 3.2L inline 6 - 343bhp
New M5, 5L V10 - 500bhp

No contest.

My dear friend Sanchez.

What makes you think I'm a Snob? Just curious.

Anyway, I think I've already confessed to being irrational in my hatred of V8's. I've said the V8 in the current M5 (same engine as the Z8 I believe), and the V8 in the 360 Modena are works of art. But I dislike them just the same.

With regards to Mercedes, I have very little respect for their engines. Their 5L V8 only produce 306 bhp, where as BMW's new 4.4L V8 has 333bhp. I believe that until recently, they were still stuck on 3 valves per cylinder. And they've always had to resort to bigger capacity or forced induction to match BMW's power output.

Old E55 AMG, 5.4L V8 - 354 bhp
C32 AMG 3.2L supercharged - 354 bhp
New E55 AMG 5.4L V8 supercharged - 476 bhp

compare that to BMW
Old M5, 5L V8 - 400bhp
M3, 3.2L inline 6 - 343bhp
New M5, 5L V10 - 500bhp

No contest.

True you do admit to irrational thinking, it just seems all the bashing was on Detroit iron. At least this time you've actually mentioned Mercedes. However Mercedes takes all of their HP ratings at a set RPM level unlike other manufacturers who take it at peak including BMW, and not that I'm taking Mercedes' side over BMW, but Mercedes is a much more reliable machine than BMW.

What do you think of the V8 offerings from Japan?

Yes but mercedes don't put the same attention on track-days attitude that BMW puts in it's car, spending much more time testing in the nurb...

mecedes is a more classy and mature people directed mark,and some mercedes can also say something when power is needed,but nothin to do with BMW,the 2nd sport mark in germany after porsche.

imho.

Yes but mercedes don't put the same attention on track-days attitude that BMW puts in it's car, spending much more time testing in the nurb...

mecedes is a more classy and mature people directed mark,and some mercedes can also say something when power is needed,but nothin to do with BMW,the 2nd sport mark in germany after porsche.

imho.


Oh I like BMW better than Mercedes, I just think Mercedes is a well build machine worthy of respect. However given the choice I'd take the BMW equivalent every time.

what gives you the idea that Merc's are more reliable than BMW's Sanchez?

In my experience, Merc's don't break down very often but that's only because they change a lot of parts at regular services and stick you with a hefty service bill. At least my dad's had a bit of trouble with his. My friends say the same thing.

But like I said, Japanese cars are the most reliable. Everything else is not quite up to their reliability standard.

BTW, I know very little about Japanese V8's. But like I said, if it's a V8, I won't like it. I don't care who makes it.

hey... ya all know who win the lemans this FEW years? the chevy... the old skool pushrod 2v per cylinder small block V8 chevy... ofcoz i got no doubt about the european engineer... they push the i6 3.2L to 360hp. but stop here... thats it my friend... thats all u get... i dare u won't break into the engine and DO SOME WORK... however what we have here is a everyday v8... as long as it has 4 bolt at the bottom... all that truck u see everyday outhere, all the camaro/firebird out there with proper tuning... can smoke u in no time my friend... what is that u buy from bmw? i can buy all the part from summitracing and built a 600 horse 350 chevy camaro and godamn race it EVERYDAY in scca my friend. who need a car that u can't afford to run? who need a m3 csl that u and me can't buy?... hey!!! get to know the american v8 before u say something about engine... okay? buy a carcraft mag or hotrod mag first!!! o.... by the way... im juz a 20yrs old student from hong kong,china... i drive a 81 vw rabbit...

I'm sorry, I see a Bentley, three Audis, a BMW, a McLaren, and four Porsches winning Le Mans for the last ten years. Where's this Chevy?

I have an E46 M3. I'm having new filters, new chip and a titanium exhaust installed now.

A friend who's a BMW mechanic says AC Schnitzer has an engine management and transmission management system that can rev the engine to almost 12,000rpm and modify the SMG II to match that. He'll try to get it for me when he's in Germany this June. If not, we'll make do with a Motec (spelling?).

I'm having carbon fibre bonnet, boot lid and doors installed, rear seats ripped out, 8 and 4 piston Brembo brakes front and rear, new dif put in, new adjustable suspension, 20 inch magnesium alloys. And if I'm lucky and my local Michelin buddy can swing it, the new Michelin PS2's that are made for the Carrera GT.

That'll bring the weight down below 1400kg and I don't even dare to think what sort of power I'll get. So don't give me this 360 bhp and that's it crap. The 2002 European engine of the year can handle a lot more than that.

And after all those mods, it's a car that'll handle beautifully on a track. Now like a metal block with rockets attached. I have no interest in having a drag car that can't turn a corner.

Yeah I didn't hear anything about a SBC winning Le Mans?

http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/lemans/cars/gts-chevrolet-corvette-c5r.htm
dun get me wrong... im not saying the M3 is no good.. the handling... everying is perfect!!!... and i know dinan also carry products for the E46, and they are great too... im not trying to say the m3 is crap... juz... i can't stand that u people keep saying the american v8 worth nothing, juz when u get to know the chevy ford chrysler pontiac... or even Holden more... u will find theres tons of aftermarket parts for them... from small parts like piston rings.. to the big engine block... and these car... even a high skool kid can afford... like.. how about 2000 bucks 80's camaro with a USD$3200.30 440hp 350chevy vortec small block engine (from carcraft mag sept 2002 pg.66) in it? and these car.... they can turn my friend.... lets skip the vette... the mustang run the trans am in the 60's- 70's... and the 3 gen camaro... from stock car to road racing... u name it ... ha ha... drag car?... i hate it too!!! with some underbody chassis bar... which offer from alot of company or may be even full cage... they can be stiff as fxxx man.
i know money is good... but not everyone has it... motec engine managment... hey.... how about the one from magneti marelli... with full ap brake system( with the cylinder.. proportioning valves) performance friction brakes' rotor... tilton carbon clutch... ohlins 46 hrc shocks with 3 pcs bbs gt wheel M3? juz to name a few....... damn it... um... + custom LV monogram leather wrapped recaro pro racer spa carbon seat... HAHAHAHAHHA PEOPLE.... pay some respect to the v8( or i say american car) please.... thats is juz stupid to say "I have no interest in having a drag car that can't turn a corner."
have to sleep now.... have school tomorrow..... bye bye hahaha

o.... sorry.... not in the LMP 900 class HAHAHAHA... in the GTS class... which race with the Ferrari 550 Maranello.... HAHAHAHA hey.... that engine block and head the c5r using... u can buy it right from the gmperformance parts dealer... which is your local chevy car dealer... and also the sb2 too.. which in the winston cup... isn't that great !!!!

I'm sorry, I see a Bentley, three Audis, a BMW, a McLaren, and four Porsches winning Le Mans for the last ten years. Where's this Chevy?

I have an E46 M3. I'm having new filters, new chip and a titanium exhaust installed now.

A friend who's a BMW mechanic says AC Schnitzer has an engine management and transmission management system that can rev the engine to almost 12,000rpm and modify the SMG II to match that. He'll try to get it for me when he's in Germany this June. If not, we'll make do with a Motec (spelling?).

I'm having carbon fibre bonnet, boot lid and doors installed, rear seats ripped out, 8 and 4 piston Brembo brakes front and rear, new dif put in, new adjustable suspension, 20 inch magnesium alloys. And if I'm lucky and my local Michelin buddy can swing it, the new Michelin PS2's that are made for the Carrera GT.

That'll bring the weight down below 1400kg and I don't even dare to think what sort of power I'll get. So don't give me this 360 bhp and that's it crap. The 2002 European engine of the year can handle a lot more than that.

And after all those mods, it's a car that'll handle beautifully on a track. Now like a metal block with rockets attached. I have no interest in having a drag car that can't turn a corner.
Nice mods. My colleague is tuning his Hartge H 50 (lightened M3 with an M5 engine) to over 520bhp. But hey, Schnitzer, Hartge, it's all good :naughty:

http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/lemans/cars/gts-chevrolet-corvette-c5r.htm
dun get me wrong... im not saying the M3 is no good.. the handling... everying is perfect!!!... and i know dinan also carry products for the E46, and they are great too... im not trying to say the m3 is crap... juz... i can't stand that u people keep saying the american v8 worth nothing, juz when u get to know the chevy ford chrysler pontiac... or even Holden more... u will find theres tons of aftermarket parts for them... from small parts like piston rings.. to the big engine block... and these car... even a high skool kid can afford... like.. how about 2000 bucks 80's camaro with a USD$3200.30 440hp 350chevy vortec small block engine (from carcraft mag sept 2002 pg.66) in it? and these car.... they can turn my friend.... lets skip the vette... the mustang run the trans am in the 60's- 70's... and the 3 gen camaro... from stock car to road racing... u name it ... ha ha... drag car?... i hate it too!!! with some underbody chassis bar... which offer from alot of company or may be even full cage... they can be stiff as fxxx man.
i know money is good... but not everyone has it... motec engine managment... hey.... how about the one from magneti marelli... with full ap brake system( with the cylinder.. proportioning valves) performance friction brakes' rotor... tilton carbon clutch... ohlins 46 hrc shocks with 3 pcs bbs gt wheel M3? juz to name a few....... damn it... um... + custom LV monogram leather wrapped recaro pro racer spa carbon seat... HAHAHAHAHHA PEOPLE.... pay some respect to the v8( or i say american car) please.... thats is juz stupid to say "I have no interest in having a drag car that can't turn a corner."
have to sleep now.... have school tomorrow..... bye bye hahaha
Type properly please. Im getting a headache looking at that.

sorry my english is poor....

http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/lemans/cars/gts-chevrolet-corvette-c5r.htm
dun get me wrong... im not saying the M3 is no good.. the handling... everying is perfect!!!... and i know dinan also carry products for the E46, and they are great too... im not trying to say the m3 is crap... juz... i can't stand that u people keep saying the american v8 worth nothing, juz when u get to know the chevy ford chrysler pontiac... or even Holden more... u will find theres tons of aftermarket parts for them... from small parts like piston rings.. to the big engine block... and these car... even a high skool kid can afford... like.. how about 2000 bucks 80's camaro with a USD$3200.30 440hp 350chevy vortec small block engine (from carcraft mag sept 2002 pg.66) in it? and these car.... they can turn my friend.... lets skip the vette... the mustang run the trans am in the 60's- 70's... and the 3 gen camaro... from stock car to road racing... u name it ... ha ha... drag car?... i hate it too!!! with some underbody chassis bar... which offer from alot of company or may be even full cage... they can be stiff as fxxx man.
i know money is good... but not everyone has it... motec engine managment... hey.... how about the one from magneti marelli... with full ap brake system( with the cylinder.. proportioning valves) performance friction brakes' rotor... tilton carbon clutch... ohlins 46 hrc shocks with 3 pcs bbs gt wheel M3? juz to name a few....... damn it... um... + custom LV monogram leather wrapped recaro pro racer spa carbon seat... HAHAHAHAHHA PEOPLE.... pay some respect to the v8( or i say american car) please.... thats is juz stupid to say "I have no interest in having a drag car that can't turn a corner."
have to sleep now.... have school tomorrow..... bye bye hahaha
Yep, you'd better go to sleep... And be up bright and early for school, at least with a bit of an education behind you I'll be able to comprehend the points you are making :confused:

Well Sanchez, you see, good to me means engines that are well designed, that use state of the art technology to achieve maximum power and torque output. They strive to put that power and torque into usable revs. And they are reliable.

I live in Australia, so I have very little exposure to American cars. From what I hear, you don't want to compare their reliability against anyone's. When it comes to reliability, no one beats the Japanese. But please, when you knocked BMW's reliability, are you actually saying American cars have better reliability than BMW's? If that's how you feel, I don't think there's anything more to discuss. Because you wouldn't be from Earth. BTW, I've owned an E46 M3 for close to 2 years, touch wood, no problems. I also have a friend who's a BMW mechanic, and he raves about BMW engines.

And with regards to Detroit Muscle using "MODERN" technology? What do they have exactly? 4 valves per cylinder? Direct injection? Dry sump lubrication? Double Vanos? Twin clutch gear boxes? Quattro? DSG? FSI? Aluminium chasis or space frame? Carbon fibre? Dynamic drive? Active steering?

And lastly, you say they've gone away from the bigger capacity, more power mentality. So what's the new Viper, the Cien, the C16?

I consider engineering to be results/cost. At their specific price points, the LS1, LS6 and the Viper engine are by far the best naturally aspirated engines available. The LS6 can put down 470-490rwhp naturally aspirated, stock displacement. This engine is available in a 50K car. Please enlighten me on to a car/vehicle combo which is able to do that at the same price point. THAT IS ENGINEERING. I don't care if you can make 150hp/L in a stock, production car engine. If the engine displacement is 3.0L and the car costs 400K(assuming a weight which is normal for the class/price point) I will not be impressed if another car as the same power/weight ratio(and used a low tech small block V8) and has a price of 300K. The design team did an idiotic move from a performance standpoint, why should I value that?

Oh, btw, do you think the 3.8L V6 OHV Turbo engine that GM made in the 80's is a good engine?

M3 Euro

CTS American

Easy. M3 all the way.

I disagree Mr Payne.

I don't care about the cost at all. Better is better. BMW spends ridiculous amounts of money on the engine they supply to Williams. They spend a lot more than say Cosworth. But their engine is still "BETTER".

Besides, there's more to a car than power:weight ratio. Such as the handling, reliability, creature comforts, the brand and the undefinable "STYLE". I personally much prefer European styling as opposed to Detroit styling (or there lack of).

yea, due to the price point, you can't compare the ls1 to the s54, gm engineer has to keep it pushrod is because they have to use the same base engine in all the truck they sell too... the simple clean 2v head design keep the torque curve smooth, and reliability, but still... with this engine layout, they have push it to 406 hp in a corvette Z06... which is impressive on what u pay...
and afterall... thats the comparison of what the manufacture offering...
to the aftermarket tuning... i still think the ls1 is the way to go... also i think the ctsv handling would be amazing too

I disagree Mr Payne.

I don't care about the cost at all. Better is better. BMW spends ridiculous amounts of money on the engine they supply to Williams. They spend a lot more than say Cosworth. But their engine is still "BETTER".

You misunderstand the logic. The engine might be more powerful, it is not neccessarily better engineered though. That isn't to say that the Cosworth is better engineered though. If the Cosworth unit makes 850hp and has a R&D budget of 30 million and the BMW makes 900hp and has an R&D budget of 60 million you can't make a judgement either way. One does not know how much that extra 50hp cost to develop. However, in a street car it becomes very evident because the basic cost structure along with the 'results' is known to the public. The LS6 is a better engine for the task at hand than the S54. More powerful, very compact, more modable, cheaper mods, low weight, similar cost, etc... Engineering always occurs with limited resources. Cost/resources is ALWAYS an issue.

Besides, there's more to a car than power:weight ratio. Such as the handling, reliability, creature comforts, the brand and the undefinable "STYLE". I personally much prefer European styling as opposed to Detroit styling (or there lack of).

Never heard of a CTS having a "lack of styling" though. I think you might be going for "overstyled". My main problem with it is the heighth of the car. Very unbecoming of a sedan, especially a sport sedan. The CTS-V racecar is much more attractive than any M3 racecar I've seen.

Well Mr Payne, I guess I'll have to take your word over that of Martin Brundle and James Allen and countless other F1 experts and accept that the P80 series of BMW engines aren't the best in F1. NOT!!!

They are the best.

And I fully get your point. But I disagree. I'll say it again, BETTER IS BETTER. F**k the R&D cost. Sort of like faster is faster.

A Toyota Camary, 0-62 in about 10 or 11 seconds (I have no idea) costs about $25,000. A 360 Modena, 0-62 in 4.6s, costs about $440,000. So according to your logic, it's not necessarily faster? Of course it's faster. Who cares what it costs.

Mr. Payne, remember that when you reply you need to be very very very clear as to what you say. People generally tend to be very closed minded on the web, and as comprehensive as a 5yr old when trying to understand other controversal points against their argument. That or their just being ignorant. :grinno:

Well Mr Payne, I guess I'll have to take your word over that of Martin Brundle and James Allen and countless other F1 experts and accept that the P80 series of BMW engines aren't the best in F1. NOT!!!

They are the best.

And I fully get your point. But I disagree. I'll say it again, BETTER IS BETTER. F**k the R&D cost. Sort of like faster is faster.

A Toyota Camary, 0-62 in about 10 or 11 seconds (I have no idea) costs about $25,000. A 360 Modena, 0-62 in 4.6s, costs about $440,000. So according to your logic, it's not necessarily faster? Of course it's faster. Who cares what it costs.

A 360 Modena costs about 160K, not 440K. What the hell are you thinking? Your reading comprehension appears to be low, so I'll be clear on this issue. I said that results/cost is what engineering is all about. A car that gets 0-60mph in 4.1 seconds and costs 50K is better than a car that gets 0-60mph in 4.1 seconds and costs 150K. However, if that 150K car gets to it in 4.0 seconds then it's not neccessarily worse engineered (in the aspect of straight line speed) because we don't know how much it would cost the other developer to get that extra .1 second of speed. Although general consumer logic would say go for the cheaper product because such a small difference in speed is not worth the price. Your post showed a clear misunderstanding of what I was saying. I never said that any particular car was faster or slower than another. However, I stated that if a car is faster than another and costs less then it better engineered in the aspect of straightline acceleration. This is not a hard concept.

Under your logic, as demonstrated by your retort to my post, being faster is a sign of being better engineered. You consider all these cars to be superior to a 360 Modena. Viper, Ford GT, Mosler MT900S, 911 Turbo X50, GT3...it is also concievable that in straightline speed that Z06 is also faster than the 360 Modena. So because these cars are faster they must be better engineered?

Oh, and BTW, the BMW isn't the best engine this year at least. Maybe a tie between BAR/Ferrari/BMW.

"Who cares what it costs."
If you don't think cost is an issue then you are an idiot. Product design is made to fit certain cost criteria. To think otherwise would be idiotic.

I live in Australia. A 360 Modena F1 with an upgraded exhaust system costs $440,000 Australian Dollars. What the hell was I thinking? I was thinking not everyone is as arrogant and presumptuous as you are. And most people know that the U.S. is not the only country that sells Ferrari's.

Before you knock my reading comprehension, why don't you read my posts again. Where do I say Faster means Better Engineered? I was making a point with the 0-62 times.

With regards to better engineering, let me make another example. Ferrari's F1 budget is several times that of Jordan and Minardi. Is there anyone in the world who would argue that the Ferrari is not a BETTER ENGINEERED F1 car? I don't think so.

So I'll say it one last time for the cheap seats: F**K R&D COSTS, BETTER IS BETTER.

I live in Australia. A 360 Modena F1 with an upgraded exhaust system costs $440,000 Australian Dollars. What the hell was I thinking? I was thinking not everyone is as arrogant and presumptuous as you are. And most people know that the U.S. is not the only country that sells Ferrari's.


Excuse me, I think only in Euros or Dollars.

Before you knock my reading comprehension, why don't you read my posts again. Where do I say Faster means Better Engineered? I was making a point with the 0-62 times.

With regards to better engineering, let me make another example. Ferrari's F1 budget is several times that of Jordan and Minardi. Is there anyone in the world who would argue that the Ferrari is not a BETTER ENGINEERED F1 car? I don't think so.

So I'll say it one last time for the cheap seats: F**K R&D COSTS, BETTER IS BETTER.

"I was making a point with the 0-62 times."
Not a visible point, I assure you.

Let me ask you this question. If Ferrari was running a Minardi sized budget, do you think that they could match Minardi? Oh, and I'll argue that Ferrari is not the better engineered car. I won't say that is a worse engineered car either. Just that it is unknown whether it is better engineered or not.

I don't understand this constant repetition of "BETTER IS BETTER." I could use the same line in my argument...

You lose sight of the original point. What is engineering to you? "The use of state of the art technology?" Ok, why is the S54 which is available in the M3 better engineered than an LS6? I can get more power at the same price while still meeting all the driveability and emissions requirements. Here is my point I suppose, the M3 would be a better performing car with the LS6 in it. As far as engines are concerned, that is better engineering.

The constant repetition of Better is Better was my attempt at pointing out that you can't measure things by a per dollar basis.

If you don't think the Ferrari's are better (or better engineered) than Minardi's then you're the only one I know of. And I'm sorry, but that's quite possibly the most idiotic statement I've ever heard. And you'll notice the FIA agrees with me, not you. Ferrari have the last five constructor championships. They didn't have a "biggest lap time improvement per dollar spent" award.

And I'm not forgetting the original point. But my point is, if you have a car that you spent $100,000 on and I spent $200,000 on mine, and I beat you in a race, then my car is BETTER than yours.

I completely disagree that the M3 would perform better with the LS6. First of all you'd have to fit a 5.7L block in place of a 3.2L. The weight distribution would be upset. Holdens use the 'vette block (LS1) here in Australia. Their breakdown rate is scary.

And I'm not an engineer so I can't define better engineering. But how many International Engine of the Year awards has the LS6 won? Or are all those judges wrong too and we should still take you word?