B16 V.s B18 V.s H22

Which engine do you recomend for a 88' crx
And wich one is the fastest

You know what I'm going to say. :p

If you don't B16.

I'll make it quick and simple. B16s are cheap, and super-good platforms for building a quick 4G. Make sure you get a good transmission. YS1 with an LSD is prime, or a S1/J1 will do the trick too. HAsport makes a kit now that allows you to use a newer hydraulic transmission on older cars, so you could even pick up an LSD equipped newer hydro tranny and do the swap with that.

B18 is a nice motor. B18C is even nicer than a B16A, but a lot more money. B18a/b are a good strong motor with lots of torque, but relativley low HP numbers. If you're not planning on boosting its probably a lot cheaper to build a fast B16A than B18a/b. And if you're going to boost low amounts I still think the B16 will be faster.

H22 is a heavy swap that requires quite an amount of work to do to get in. I'm not too sure if anyone makes a mount kit for it yet, but I don't think so. Your car would be quick as fVck, but for all the work invovled I'd still scratch it off the list. If you had a 92-00 Civic then I would be saying differently, but as far as old Civics go, its just a little too big I think.

There's going to be about 5 guys jumping at me because I said B16A over B18a/b but thats just the way that it goes. Do searches on Honda-Tech.com that topic has been discussed over and over and over and over. (here too)

A lot of people are opting to to NA builds now becuase they're not so expensive and involved as boosted setups, and the B16A makes it nice. After basic bolt ons (I/H/E/Type-R cams/R intake manifold, etc.) you're going to have a decently quick car with not too many mods done to it. To me, the next logical step seems to be build a bigger block (over a period of time for me, because I'm poor) and just rock out on the stock 1.6 block for the time being. Lots of people swap B18a/b blocks, GSR, ITR, and CRV to get more power. Sure, if you had a B18 or something like that you'd just need to build the head, but the block is what needs to be built up for LS/CRVTEC swaps. And then once the block is ready, if you've already got the B16A in there the wiring is already there for you.

Bah, thats it for now.. Just waiting for 100 people to get angry about something I said....

Did Siz just say that b16a has lots of torque? Then why do they call it the "Torqueless Wonder" My sohc vtec has 5 less ft/lbs than a b16a. Im not a fan of the B16's. If you want to go B series I like LS motors!

I've never said it had lots of torque, but I've never called it a torqueless wonder either. People who say that about B16s are people who've never driven one about 99% of the time. They're just people who are internet racers, who race numbers that they find online.

Say what you will about it being a 1.6L, it makes more than adequate HP to make up for the lack of torque.
An LS motor has 14 more lbs-ft of torque than a B16, but 20 less HP. And the way the tranny is geared you won't even notice having less HP in the low rev range because you're always above 6500 when you're racing anyway.

im personally building a B18 for turbo and its costin me out the ass for it but thats what i wanted but if you wanted to i would say go LS/vtec it is prolly your best bet for HP and TQ if you got the cash but if not then find a B18A1 at a yard or even build a D16 up if you want something easy then the D will bolt right in no new mounts no new tranny and 126 HP with the D16Z6 which is prolly your cheapest swap

the ls is good and all if you want to add vtec. but if you are talking just going b18a/b vs. b16, i would go b16.

i dunno, the b18b strikes me as a ZC with more torque.

ZC
Power: 137 bhp @ 6800
Redline: 7200 rpm
108 lb-ft @ 5700

B18B1
140 hp @ 6300
Redline: 6800 rpm
121 lb-ft @ 5200

according to honda hybrid http://tech.hybridgarage.com/tech/specs.htm

I believe place racing makes a half as* weld in kit for the h22a into a 88-91 chasis. But its like 400-450 and i heard its not really good. b16 or b18 whatever u want they are both good in their own way!

If you wanna drag, then i believe it's the h22, but you want to autoX, then it's the b16, just my opinion.....

might as well do the k series motor!

I agree, k20a2...acura rsx-s motor.

Pricewise: B18C > B16A or B20/B16 hybrid.
If you have the money then K20 or K24 with K20 head
Forget the H22 - it's too big and heavy for an ED and from what I've seen requires cutting into the crossmembers.

BTW - anyone who says a B16 is torqueless doesn't understand the torque/hp relationship and shouldn't be trusted with a spanner. See the FAQ thread for why - they just dont understand the design principal of a B16A/B18C motor compared to a D series.

An LS motor has 14 more lbs-ft of torque than a B16, but 20 less HP.
That's a little off, the b18b has 16 more ft-lbs of torque than a b16 and 18 less HP.
But, I've seen both dynoed stock and the b16a seems to lose alot more HP through the drivetrain as compared to the B18. The b16 is usually dynoed at 115-118 WHP whereas the B18 is usually dynoed at 118-125 WHP.

the b18b has 142 HP and 127 TQ Ratings. The B16A has 160 HP and 111 TQ. I'm personally a fan of the B18. If both motors had an ls tranny attached to it, the B18 would win. The only reason that the b16a might be a hair faster is because of its closed geared tranny as opposed to an ls's longer geared tranny. If one hatch had a b18b and another hatch had a b16a but both hatches were running the b16a tranny, the b18 hatch would win.
Theoretically, if you could race engine vs. engine (no tranny or vehicle involved), the b18 would win.
It also depends on what ur plans are. I would not boost on a b16a. For 2 reasons: the b16 is not capable of handling as much boost as a b18 and the b16 tranny is not good for turbo. The b16 is nice if ur going all motor but if you wanna go turbo, i say get the b18. I got my b18b with 80k on it for 450. Not bad if u ask me. I can't wait to smoke some b16 powered hatches/rexes.

I was just wondering.... has anyone been successful in dropping a K-series motor into a 4g chassis yet? or even a 5g? If so, I would like some info or would like to see some pix, if possible, instructions would be awesome. I've heard of civics with K-motors but have never really seen one....

there was a red one on ebay for sale not to long ago for i think 7500. It looked good. I'd rather have a k than an H anyday.

I agree, k20a2...acura rsx-s motor.

word!

But, I've seen both dynoed stock and the b16a seems to lose alot more HP through the drivetrain as compared to the B18. The b16 is usually dynoed at 115-118 WHP whereas the B18 is usually dynoed at 118-125 WHP.

Huh?! I think you're a little off.. Stock B16s generally dyno around 135.. I don't think I've ever seen one dyno as low as 120s. That wouldn't be right. You're going to have to show me some of the B16 vs. B18 dynos before I'm just going to believe you becaus that seems like a load of crap to me.

I got my b18b with 80k on it for 450. Not bad if u ask me. I can't wait to smoke some b16 powered hatches/rexes.

$450 american for a B18B!? I see 1st gen B16 longblocks going for around $5-600cdn. quite often.. Doesn't sound like that good of a deal to me.
I can't wait until you ACTUALLY get the motor done and in and realize that a B16 hatch/rex is still whooping on you.

I can't wait until you ACTUALLY get the motor done and in and realize that a B16 hatch/rex is still whooping on you.


:grinno: common guy i know we have had our share fair of history, obviously im gonna favor the b18 because i have one and have whooped up on every b16 powered car i have raced including hatches, crxs, si's

my times speak for themselves most guys on here with b16 swaps were runnin 14.8-15.0 i believe with basically the same mods as me, if you put a better tranny on the LS is a way more complete motor all around it has more torque and with a shorter geared tranny it pulles a hell of alot harder than a b16 crx/hatch yes even from a roll



and ami your numbers are way off, i dont find that site to be a good source at all the ls redlines at 7 grand and they are giving the dohc zc way more hp than it really has, look at chuckhatch's dyno numbers with i/h/e they are not bad

:grinno: common guy i know we have had our share fair of history, obviously im gonna favor the b18 because i have one and have whooped up on every b16 powered car i have raced including hatches, crxs, si's

my times speak for themselves most guys on here with b16 swaps were runnin 14.8-15.0 i believe with basically the same mods as me, if you put a better tranny on the LS is a way more complete motor all around it has more torque and with a shorter geared tranny it pulles a hell of alot harder than a b16 crx/hatch yes even from a roll

and ami your numbers are way off, i dont find that site to be a good source at all the ls redlines at 7 grand and they are giving the dohc zc way more hp than it really has, look at chuckhatch's dyno numbers with i/h/e they are not bad

:werd: my brothers old b18a hatch with a b16 tranny, beat many b16a hatches in the 1/4. but i would consider either of those motors a great choice. the b18a has a way better torque curve than the b16a though. and why do people think the zc has 137 hp? and my b18a redlines at 7200. i guess people who never had this engine always assume too.

Your times are quite suprisingly decent in your CRX, but there's lots of B16 powered cars running just as fast or faster than that with the same mods. Really.

What kind of tires are you running to hit a 2.1 60'?
Azenis!? What tranny?

the b18a has a way better torque curve than the b16a though.

Ya, but where?! In the low rev range. A B16 transmission is going to hold you within 1500rpm of the rev limit.. You're telling me a B18A has a better power curve in the 2000+ rpm than a B16?!
I don't get it.

In this months issue of "honda tuning", there is an SiR hatchback, a true JDM b16a RHD Hatchback. This guy chose to keep his car completely stock. The only thing he added to the engine was a CTR intake cam and an ITR exhaust cam. The BEST quarter mile he could ever pull with this Sir is a 14.86. I'm guessing that would mean that a stock b16a powered hatch would run the 1/4 in about 14.9-15.1....which is not fast at all.

Also, when I say "STOCK" dyno numbers I mean STOCK. No header, intake, cams, exhaust, etc. That number i pulled for stock B16a's was actually a generalization because I saw one dyno of a STOCK B16a. Maybe his engine had some gremlins in it who knows. But after some searching. It appears that B16a's make 125-133 WHP BONE STOCK. But, they seem to barely push over 100 ft/lbs of torque. The average for this is 95-101 ft/lbs of torque on a BONE STOCK B16a motor. That's not impressive at all IMO. I prefer torque over HP anyday.

also, the bigger difference between the b16a and the b18a/b is the trannsmissions. If you were to bolt the same tranny to both engines(any tranny, ur pick...) the b18 would win in a 1/4 mile.
I also prefer my 99 B18B that I got for 450 U.S. dollars because it's only 4 years old and it only has 80k on it. Those B16a's are high mileage and they can be 16 years old. Also, you never know which one you are getting; one from an Rsi or Xsi or rarely a SiR B16a.

You're telling me a B18A has a better power curve in the 2000+ rpm than a B16?!

YES!!! B16a's put down about 88 ft/lbs of torque at 2000k RPM!

P.S.
Siz- please don't have any harsh feelings towards me because I prefer a B18...I got love for you and anyone else putting money into his/her 4G and keepin' it alive!

no i do not have azeni's i have regular old michillen tires with a ys1 non lsd tranny ive seen people do slightly better times with their b16's but they were also in 88-89's and non si's

In this months issue of "honda tuning", there is an SiR hatchback, a true JDM b16a RHD Hatchback. This guy chose to keep his car completely stock. The only thing he added to the engine was a CTR intake cam and an ITR exhaust cam. The BEST quarter mile he could ever pull with this Sir is a 14.86. I'm guessing that would mean that a stock b16a powered hatch would run the 1/4 in about 14.9-15.1....which is not fast at all.


14.8 with a real SiR?! Do you know how heavy SiRs are? They're a couple hundred more pounds more than the Sis.
Thats one of the things about the B16A, the parts for modding are everywhere for them. I see used ITR cams for sale for $400cdn. all the time on local webboards. You're not going to get gains out of the LS motor as easily and as cheap as that.

I also prefer my 99 B18B that I got for 450 U.S. dollars because it's only 4 years old and it only has 80k on it. Those B16a's are high mileage and they can be 16 years old.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're telling me a B18A has a better power curve in the 2000+ rpm than a B16?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YES!!! B16a's put down about 88 ft/lbs of torque at 2000k RPM!

I don't even think that 1st gen B16As come over with as many as 80k on them?!?!

And about the power curve, you misunderstood and I misspelled. I meant the last 2000+rpm of the rev limit on a B18 compared to a B16. When you're racing with a B16A transmission thats where the revs are kept.

ok ok ok, siz...i believe you have run your car at the track right?

what did you run? what were your mods? 60'? tires?

aight since we are on the subject is the ZC DOHC better or worse than the B16? What would be the next step up from the ZC DOHC for the next swap? I just bought this 89 HB with ZC swap couple months ago. Seems pretty peppy to me. Only mod I have is CAI. What would be the next (cheapest) best mod to get some more performance out of it?

ok ok ok, siz...i believe you have run your car at the track right?
what did you run? what were your mods? 60'? tires?

Yes I have. My first time out I ran a 15.0something @ 92.somethingsomething mph. My only mod is an exhuast, and I had my 16s on with Kumhos.. They were just jumping like crazy.. The best 60' I could muster was a 2.2something. Full interior + stereo (wich needs to go).

I can update you soon with more accurate info. The track just opened here for spring again and I should be going the Friday after this one.

What size tires did you have? I'm curious.. I'm thinking taller sidewalls and lower tire pressure will stop the bouncing problem I had. A 2.1 60' would be really nice. ;)


lithod02 - Don't even start comparing a B16 to a ZC.. About the performance question, exhuast would be next, then a header, then you're stuck without spending big $. :p

So, I take it from your reply the ZC is slower than a B16?

:evillol:

Yes I have. My first time out I ran a 15.0something @ 92.somethingsomething mph. My only mod is an exhuast, and I had my 16s on with Kumhos.. They were just jumping like crazy.. The best 60' I could muster was a 2.2something. Full interior + stereo (wich needs to go).

I can update you soon with more accurate info. The track just opened here for spring again and I should be going the Friday after this one.

What size tires did you have? I'm curious.. I'm thinking taller sidewalls and lower tire pressure will stop the bouncing problem I had. A 2.1 60' would be really nice. ;)


lithod02 - Don't even start comparing a B16 to a ZC.. About the performance question, exhuast would be next, then a header, then you're stuck without spending big $. :p
The ZC is about 125hp and the b16 is about 160

First of all, there is no way a b16a only dynoes under 120 hp.I have seen multiple dyno sheets of stock b16a (intake, exhaust) dyno 140+ easily. I have a b16a gen 1 out of a 89 integra XSI with lsd ys1 tranny. Now, I just raced (on saturday in philly) a crx with a b18b ls with intake, header, exhaust, and fuel work, i launched on him like half a car length, he started catching me in 2nd just a little bit , his nose was at my front fender when I shifted into 3rd, thats when I jumped a full carlength through 3rd and he stayed with me all through 4th. ALL i have done is intake and exhaust, no fuel or header, with flywheel and clutch. I have much respect for ls motors as they are about even with the b16 but:

WHOEVER SAYS THE B16A IS A TORQULESS WONDER, CANNOT DRIVE A B16A. Although it does lack on torque, if you launch right, you dont need torque. When I get a good launch and bleed the clutch, I never fall below 6,500 rpms through each gear. If you can use the horspower right, its a lot faster car. Then again, If you bog at all at the line, every gear after that will feel like its lacking. When it comes down to comparing what engine is faster in what car, its all about the drivers and the components chosen. To each his own, but the b16a is by far the most bang for your buck and is the most fun to drive.

ED6 88 dx with b16a w/ lsd
White with ZC carbon firber hood
Fresh black bumpers
jdm sidemarkers
gutted
function 7 billit rear control arms (1.5lbs each)
eibiech sportline race springs with KYB GR2's
KEEP IT CLEAN

In this months issue of "honda tuning", there is an SiR hatchback, a true JDM b16a RHD Hatchback. This guy chose to keep his car completely stock. The only thing he added to the engine was a CTR intake cam and an ITR exhaust cam. The BEST quarter mile he could ever pull with this Sir is a 14.86. I'm guessing that would mean that a stock b16a powered hatch would run the 1/4 in about 14.9-15.1....which is not fast at all.

You dickhead - an EF9 weighs 1030 kilos. They are weighed down with a sunroof, power steering, and power everything else. Compare this to a USDM or Euro or Austral-asian Civic and you will see that the SiR gives away over 100 kilos in weight to all of them, sometimes more depending on the model. For example, my twin-carb GL weighed in at 880kilos, that's 150kg difference between it and my SiR with only 60bhp difference between the D15B and the B16A.

A stock SiR will NEVER break into the 14s unless it is the factory stripped, minimalist version and they were quite limited in numbers.

First of all, there is no way a b16a only dynoes under 120 hp.I have seen multiple dyno sheets of stock b16a (intake, exhaust) dyno 140+ easily.

LOL. you just contradicted urself. It's not STOCK if it's got Intake and exhaust. Those are worth about 10 HP or more on a B16.

Although it does lack on torque, if you launch right, you dont need torque.

You've gotta be kidding me right?

Think about it, if u had an ls tranny bolted to ur b16, then the b18 with the ls tranny would win. The only reason the b16 may be a little faster stock is because of the tranny. The motor isn't better, stronger, or faster. It's just that the b16 has a better geared tranny. A B18 with a B16 tranny would spank a B16 with that same B16 tranny. Get wut I'm saying? You guys are forgetting about the importance of the transmissions.


Also, Setanta, there's no reason to call me a Dickhead man. I haven't called anyone names here, like i said, i got love for all 4gers regardless man.

You dickhead - an EF9 weighs 1030 kilos. They are weighed down with a sunroof, power steering, and power everything else. Compare this to a USDM or Euro or Austral-asian Civic and you will see that the SiR gives away over 100 kilos in weight to all of them, sometimes more depending on the model. For example, my twin-carb GL weighed in at 880kilos, that's 150kg difference between it and my SiR with only 60bhp difference between the D15B and the B16A.

A stock SiR will NEVER break into the 14s unless it is the factory stripped, minimalist version and they were quite limited in numbers.

you dickhead we use pounds here in america

common there was no reason to call him a dickhead

this forums has suffered enough from assholes, lets not contribute *meaning everyone even me* since most of us have been here for awhile and most of the "og's" have gone elsewhere

i can get jer's b16 off the line with my d16y8 :uhoh:


...then i shift and he goes flying by :spit:

you dickhead we use pounds here in america

common there was no reason to call him a dickhead

this forums has suffered enough from assholes, lets not contribute *meaning everyone even me* since most of us have been here for awhile and most of the "og's" have gone elsewhere

a) no one in the rest of the world gives a fuck about the archaic measurements you use. He is trying to make out a SiR weighs the same as an ED6 to sustain a false allegation about the B16A.

b) he is a dickhead if he is assuming that a SiR weighs less and is faster than a B16A powered ED6. Maybe he should get his facts straight. Hell, even checking Honda's history site to see that a SiR when factory tested wont pull less than 15.3

Personally, I'm sick of all the BS that gets sprouted about how wonderful the EF8/9 are when it's total crap. They are a solid car, well engineered, but an ED6 with the same moter will toast one if in the same mod-range.

BTW: WTF is an "OG". If you are talking old-timer - it's prolly because they got sick of all the stupid, ill-informed idiots that have hit these boards on and off.

c) If being an asshole is getting people to pull their heads in, lay off the crack pipe and get a reality check along with a BS-test then I think this forum needs more assholes (by your definition), not fewer.

I'm an Aussie - we talk straight and we call a spade a fucking spade, not a multifaceted digging implement. We don't suffer fools either. So I guess he can just suck it up or cry a river. Check Ami's sig for what I think about cry-babys

Cheers

goto Hater-Tech.com oops i mean Honda-Tech.com if you want to be an all out asshole

everyone was a "noob" once

why not just correct someone when it's needed in an adult way and be an asshole when needed but i dont think it was needed here

me and siz dont fight like we used to we debate, theres a diff.

also, im no newb. People in my area come to me for engine swaps and wiring conversion expertise. I made a simple mistake of not realizing that the SIR's weigh more. No big deal, it's not the end of the world. You don't need to untie ur shoes and put on the gloves because of it. Grow up.

http://www.4thgenerationcivic.com/images/icons/badassbuddy_com-getangry2.gif :grinno:

are we done now?

i can safely say no og's left because of Setanta's abrasive approach to the education of SiR 101. they leave for various reasons, the most 2 common are sold/wrecked car and repeat questions

lack of use of the search can drive a person crazy :banghead: :swear: :comprage1

if you want to do a swap forget a b16 and a b18 if you want something fast go with a h22 with a lsd transmission. in a 1/8th my hatch runs 8.8 on street tires spinning. i want to see you take a slow b16 and b18 thants only got a intake and exhaust and run 8.8s.

if you want to do a swap forget a b16 and a b18 if you want something fast go with a h22 with a lsd transmission. in a 1/8th my hatch runs 8.8 on street tires spinning. i want to see you take a slow b16 and b18 thants only got a intake and exhaust and run 8.8s.

thanks!!! for bringing up a old thread that definately entertained the shit out of me!!!

damn archaeologists. always digging up old and useless stuff.

LOL. you just contradicted urself. It's not STOCK if it's got Intake and exhaust. Those are worth about 10 HP or more on a B16.


You've gotta be kidding me right?

Think about it, if u had an ls tranny bolted to ur b16, then the b18 with the ls tranny would win. The only reason the b16 may be a little faster stock is because of the tranny. The motor isn't better, stronger, or faster. It's just that the b16 has a better geared tranny. A B18 with a B16 tranny would spank a B16 with that same B16 tranny. Get wut I'm saying? You guys are forgetting about the importance of the transmissions.


Also, Setanta, there's no reason to call me a Dickhead man. I haven't called anyone names here, like i said, i got love for all 4gers regardless man.

no jordan, you gotta be kidding me :p it's not about the tranny, it's about how good of a driver you are. Who's d16y8 beat the b20? :p yeah yeah yeah, i know i know..stock b20 motor with intake and exhaust yaddy yaddy ya :p you had a better tranny than me though ;) just playin wit you bro. I'm down with the b16's since its getting ready to be slapped into the rex after it's painted. I do believe my b16 will beat your b20 ;) we'll run it after it's all done jordan...that's if your not turbo'd yet haha. I impressed a lot of people with that little d16 motor, i'm gonna do it with the b16 ;) .