Tell me what is wrong with hondas.

They should have stuck to motorcycles.

I think it's because Hondas are so common, everyone gets tired of seeing them.

Kind of like how everyone hates Jeff Gordon in NASCAR, or how a lot of people hate the Yankees for winning. They see and hear about them so much every year, they get sick of it and start to hate them.

I drive a Honda Prelude, and it's a real good car, but I'd never try to fix it up or anything. Because then I'd be too much like all the other people around here with their crappy "hooked up" Civics and Accords.

Honda's arent bad. If you want a fast honda, get a CBR1000.

I use a civic as a daily driver, and a 7 as a weekend warrior! Civics, accords, what have you, are just a dumb idea to "hook up". IMO

They've built a plane now, the HondaJet.

Its small, slow and ugly.

Seems they've built the aviation version of the Civic.

Yea, I can never dis on Honda Bikes, my pops, who's a muscle guy, has two muscle style ones. They have good ATVs and etc. In fact I'm sure the make decent cars, here's the problem...
Honda's are made to be budget economy cars... I'm tired of poeplegoing around thinking their Honda's are fast... y not brag to me about your high fuel economy. And then when poeple rice out their honda's and think they are sooo hot/fast... that is the most annoying thing. Tell you what, it's these assholes that are ruining it for you regular honda guys.

I think it's because alot of honda owners over-rate and brag about hondas. But for me, there's just something different about it, hondas seem to have this tinny, plasticy, toy-like feel about them, and I still can't put my finger on it, but it really is what makes me not like them - it's hard to describe.

I think it's because alot of honda owners over-rate and brag about hondas. But for me, there's just something different about it, hondas seem to have this tinny, plasticy, toy-like feel about them, and I still can't put my finger on it, but it really is what makes me not like them - it's hard to describe.
I get the feeling when I hear of a Saturn. Especially with these new dent proof doors.

I think it's because alot of honda owners over-rate and brag about hondas. But for me, there's just something different about it, hondas seem to have this tinny, plasticy, toy-like feel about them, and I still can't put my finger on it, but it really is what makes me not like them - it's hard to describe.
Yeah, right on the money. I get the same plain, toy-like vibe when I think about Honda cars too. Not to anger the Honda enthusiast, but to me they seem like plain vanilla point A to point B cars, and honestly I think for that purpose they more than perfect. But in my opinion, they don't give off any excitement to drive them. And to me, excitement to drive a certain vehicle is what "cool" cars and everything else. But just like everything else, what puts me off on Hondas may be what turns other on.

Not to anger the Honda enthusiast, but to me they seem like plain vanilla point A to point B cars, and honestly I think for that purpose they more than perfect.


Ha, I'm not mad at you. :p I, an acclaimed Honda fan, actually agree with that statement. When I first bought my Civic, I only had distant notions of turning it into a Ricemobile. I had only bought it for everyday transportation, and it took me 2 years to make it what it is now. Some people think that if they take a Honda (an extremely reliable car)and add horsepower, they get the perfect car. This is often not true. Souping up a Honda is a priveledge, not a right. :nono:

I don't hate Hondas, its just that ricers boast them as great racing machines, so I have to make fun of them to balance it out.

me too

Honda's are like an annoying sister. Lots of complaints, but everyone has one.

Honda's are like an annoying sister. Lots of complaints, but everyone has one.

Honduhs are like opinions... everyone's got one and they all suck!

:lol: just fuckin around.... :uhoh:

I like the Hondas that are all go & no show.Not the fart can exhuast having,sticker wearing,no perfomance,3 foot wing having,wastes of money on meaningless add-ons that don't amount to sh&^.Don't get me wrong,I've seen Cavaliers,Neons(lol),XR2's,Probes,Mustangs(v6's),C amaro's(v6 ).People want to have their rides look nice.But,all those examples are of extreme and costly add-ons that don't mean jack.

becase there is nothing one can do to a honda that hasn't been done before. lambo style doors, engine swaps, neons, whatever. it's all been done before. i've even seen a old ass civic hatch with a chameleon paintjob. i don't even bat an eye.

It's not all hondas though, just the mainstream econobox's. civics, accords(non v6), del sol's, crx's, integra's. well come to think of it that's about all of them sans s2000, prelude and crv.

there just really common, hell i don't like base mustangs, actually i'd rather have a honda than a v6 mustang. i love v8's though. anyway there are people souping up all kinds of cars that don't even need to be but japan made a bunch of aftermarket parts for honda's so if you want speed you can get it. yes you can run with the big v8's if you wanna spend 6 grand. nothing wrong with wanting your car to have a litle more juice, if your thinking that you can outrun supra's then your an idiot but actually if you talk to these guys they know there not fast but they were givin the car and they like to race and there's aftermarket parts so i'll add a little and race some other civics etc. mostly when you see a honda tryna race a v8 its simply cause they wanna see it go, they know they can't win.

I don't really think there is a reason people hate honda's aside from ignorance. I can see hating the tastelessly modded cars that stain the reputation of a true enthusiast, but not all hondas. I too hate these fools.

I grew up in a muscle car family, with muscle car friends. I own a '65 chev pickup with a small block 327 in it. While it's very fun to drive, it gets to be a hassle, and isn't very practical with rising fuel costs, upkeep, and traffic.

Since then, I purchased the 1992 honda prelude you see in my avatar. While it's power might be modest, it weighs less than my truck and gets a hell of a lot better gas mileage. That's not what sold me on the car though. What sold me was the feeling that came with the awesome handling of the car. This was something I could never get out of my truck. Many of my muscle car friends really didn't realize this until they rode in my car. I constantly hear, "wow, my car could never take a corner like that..". Now they are a bit more open minded about Japanese cars, and in my opinion, better people.

I don't really care if your 454 chevelle can take my prelude in the quarter mile because not all roads are straight..

I think that's Honda drivers other problem, they didn't stick to corners, V-8's own the straightaways, and always will, there is no replacement for displacement, but Hondas are fucking sweet ass handlers.

I have a honda and I love it, It is good on gas, and gets me from point A to point B and I could care less what people say about hondas, if they are bad or not, because it is just a car, people are not going to spend the rest of their life living in it, You either hate them or love them

I like Preludes n S2000s for the most part, Accords even along w/ CRX's, it's just that for the import scene, everyone seems to have one, they all look alike, people brag about thier 100 somewhat hp after adding an exhaust and intake. Just gets old, I hate anybody that does that, so it's not really the car. It's the Honda owners and how they talk, but I do like them. Civics are just old.....

true it is the Honda Owners that brag

I think it's because alot of honda owners over-rate and brag about hondas. But for me, there's just something different about it, hondas seem to have this tinny, plasticy, toy-like feel about them, and I still can't put my finger on it, but it really is what makes me not like them - it's hard to describe.

exactly. Honda's are just so practical and boring. Reason why it's like a toy car is because... It has no personality. People who get em are lemmings, just like everyone else.

Civics and Accords are just cheap grocery getters, and suping it up is like getting lambo doors on a neon, don't try to make it what it's not meant to be. Or else you are just going to be a wanna-be. And it's also the people. I go to the civic forums and these people are so immature (not saying all of em are). But a large portion are. They brag this and that and really bent on the idea that Civics are better than anything else. Also that if they got an engine swap, they are somehow better than you.

I had a 92 Civic before too, I could have put a fast engine in it, but it still woudn't feel like a real car. It would still always be known as the cheapest car out there and what cheap people drive, whatever engine or mods done to it. So I just saved up and bought a more unique and IMHO better car (95 Nissan 240sx)

, don't try to make it what it's not meant to be. Or else you are just going to be a wanna-be. . (95 Nissan 240sx)

True, but everyone has their own style and option, most of the people whom drive hondas are asses, My brother had the one I have now back 1994 when hooking cars up was not too commen, and did the work to it then, a few things have been modified, but I never brag about it, I could care less, it seems like now a days everyone is hooking up a car no matter what it is, the reason why people do civics is because they are cheap, I dont think that will ever change though, buit everything has been done to a civic, there is nothing else to do, you are right

^ well I guess everyone does have their own style and opinion, and what people do to their own car is their business, but at the same time it is kind of annoyin how they think they have a badass car when it's worth $2000 but they put a big ricey wing. It's the aura around them.

^ well I guess everyone does have their own style and opinion, and what people do to their own car is their business, but at the same time it is kind of annoyin how they think they have a badass car when it's worth $2000 but they put a big ricey wing. It's the aura around them.

I own a honda, and I have a factory spoiler. My point is that it's the bad apples that give everyone a bad name. The only problem is that there are many more bad apples in the japanese bucket... the apples have been spoiled by the cheap aftermarket. There are, however, some good apples left that get shit from EVERYONE because are from the same tree as the bad apples. You follow?

As for honda owners thinking they have a badass car... you could say that about anyone. I've personally heard people complain about the holier-than-thou 240 owners in here being assholes to them for asking simple questions. Well why are they so fucking great? By the car value logic that publicenemy imposes, I am $2500 cooler than most of them, because my car is worth that much more. The car is not what defines someone.. it's their attitude and charisma.

By the way.. I don't judge anyone from the 240 crowd just for being from the 240 crowd.. However, I do judge them for not trying to help out some kid that really wants to learn. That's the type of shit that crushes someones spirit. Probably makes them question why they'd want to be a part of that..

Maybe not.. just ignore my dribble.. I hate hondas too sometimes. Hate the cars, not the people, I guess..

Well, Like it has been said before, Too many of ricers.I think properly tuned hondas are cool, without any body mods and shit. If they are riced i just laugh.

I love it when they try to get around me off a stop light in my 99 Dodge work van with a small V8. It's loaded down with ladders, compressors, generators, tools and test equiptment and they still can't do it. Maybe they need to invert the wing so it can fly!

[QUOTE=publicenemy137]exactly. Honda's are just so practical and boring. Reason why it's like a toy car is because... It has no personality. People who get em are lemmings, just like everyone else.



So the Question is, why can they not just run off the nearest cliff?

:iceslolan

No cliffs around me..

Well, my neighbors have HOndas, a boxy civic, wagon a ccord, and a newer civic which is really sweet for a show car which ois what it is. He doesn't brag about it, he takes it to NOPI and put sit out as a show car so that's peace but his boxy one, damn, it's fast...sleeper if it weren't for the decals. It's sweet, bnut they don't talks a lot of shit ya know. Like i said, it's not the car, it's the people that own them.....

Honda's are a lot like V.D. :puke:
You don't want one, but you probably have one.
Everyone else seems to have them.
There are plenty of ways to avoid it but nobody seems to listen.

It's not the cars.
Honda's are good cars. They have great engines (the V-TEC is a sweet one), they get good gas milelage, and are very reliable.
The problem is more in the following behind the cars. It may be your first car, it may be your fifth. People can't except the fact of what Honda's are (commuter car).Why do you want to "pimp" out your econo-box ride. :gay:
Everything has been done to death on them, and it rarely looks decent.
Everybody feels the need to throw on some twenties and put six 15's in the trunk with 10,000watts to be different from the rest of the crowd. When if fact it is just blending in to the crowd (because they're freakin' everywhere).
Honda's just are too plain.
And ricing them out doesn't do anything to help. :2cents:

People can't except the fact of what Honda's are (commuter car).Why do you want to "pimp" out your econo-box ride. :gay:
Everything has been done to death on them, and it rarely looks decent.
Everybody feels the need to throw on some twenties and put six 15's in the trunk with 10,000watts to be different from the rest of the crowd. When if fact it is just blending in to the crowd (because they're freakin' everywhere).
Honda's just are too plain.
And ricing them out doesn't do anything to help. :2cents:

Oh man.. seriously.. I wish I had big ass "twenties" and six "15's" in the trunk of my car..

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/244000-244999/244687_52_full.jpg

..definitely what i want in my trunk.

Not all Honda is rice, and not all rice is honda:

http://www.isber.ucsb.edu/~randall/vw/www.vwmkiv.com/img/rice/br1.jpg

Whatever compels people to put those on and in there car anyways?


If that 'Vette picture is legit things are in far worse shape than I had previously imagined.

Whatever compels people to put those on and in there car anyways?


If that 'Vette picture is legit things are in far worse shape than I had previously imagined.

People are compeled by the desire to be the best at what they love. Or just have loud music. Many cars today have very good stereos, but they lack low end bass. I have to admit that being in a car with enough bass to shake your testicles is pretty cool, but it's not for me. Too much weight in my "boring honda".

I thought of something while sitting on the can reading my "honda tuning" magazine. Some of you might have been alive when Carol Shelby, or whoever did it first, put a small block in the cobra and it dominated motor sports. Same concept with a civic. Put a bigger motor, like an H22 in and it's fun as hell to drive. A low 14/high 13 second car with just a motor swap.. hmm.. no personality?

As for the vette.. it has a bit of a central american look to it.

People hate Hondas because Honda drivers take gas-saving engines, put them into groccery getter chassis' and run 1/4 mile times similar to that of a 2001 Porsche 911 Carerra.


And another thing, whoever said building a fast import cost more than building a fast domestic does'nt know shit about imports.

It's not gonna save much gas when you're trying to race that Porsche.

It's not gonna save much gas when you're trying to race that Porsche.

But the porsche will use more trying to race that honda..

I'd still rather have a porsche though. :smile:

Why would the Porsche use more?

The porsche uses more due tot he fact that it has 2 more cylinders, larger injectors, larger displacement, and is a sports car.

Peopel dont hate Honda's. Rather they hate the kids that drive them. A stock Honda is a great day to day car. good on gas, but in no way is it a race car, or sports car, (S2000 and NSX are exceptions)

Just seeing if anyone was paying attention.
Good job FDTT. Your point on the drivers being more the problem than the car bodes well with me.

And noley god that Corvett is ungodly. What a wast of a nice american car.

And noley god that Corvett is ungodly. What a wast of a nice american car.

Amen.

The idea of honda downfall with being the drivers of the cars is a good reason... but personally, I use to drive my friendz civic EX and the car was a piece of shiet.. it only had 3,000 milez on it (pretty much new) i couldnt stand driving it.. i just think the car doesn't equate up to a german or american car. civic's just plain suck.

Yo, where is that Wall of 15's from???

Yo, where is that Wall of 15's from???

Just some random photo on google image search..

i don't care if they put on bodykits and soupem up and make run 12 sec with 6 grand. and not all honda tuners you see are thinking there cars are the fastest, actaully were i live most don't think like that. hell i've been almost beatin buy a teg. its all about what you like, and i'm not downing on anyone who's taste is diff then mine

Oh man.. seriously.. I wish I had big ass "twenties" and six "15's" in the trunk of my car..

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/244000-244999/244687_52_full.jpg

..definitely what i want in my trunk.

Not all Honda is rice, and not all rice is honda:

http://www.isber.ucsb.edu/~randall/vw/www.vwmkiv.com/img/rice/br1.jpg
true dat :)

let me tell you why i hate hondas....first off....the majority of them (mabye all, im not real keen on hondas) are 4 cylinder peices of junk....yet people go out and buy them to race. they add wings, stickers, neons, and a coffee can to their car and hit the road.....they drive around like they're hot shit, pretending they're car can go fast....and theres nothing more annoying than the noise of a honda trying to race....you know, its like a high pitched squealing....makes me want to vomit....anyway...hondas suck

Nothin' wrong with hondas. Theyre just not race cars-I don't care how big a fart can ya stick on it-it ain't a race car.

Hondas are good reliable and relativly fast cars. They save gas. Ricers suck. period. :evillol:

Nothin' wrong with hondas. Theyre just not race cars-.

Exept for the Integra type R, or the Civic type R, or the NSX-R. Maybe even the Integra GS-R.

Integra type Rs are built for saving gas just like the Ford F-150 Lightning was meant to be used as a work truck.

Exept for the Integra type R, or the Civic type R, or the NSX-R. Maybe even the Integra GS-R.

Integra type Rs are built for saving gas just like the Ford F-150 Lightning was meant to be used as a work truck.

Y'uh-huh. 'K.. If you say so ;)

Y'uh-huh. 'K.. If you say so ;)

What's that supposed to mean?

Y'uh-huh. 'K.. If you say so ;)
you smokin crack? :smokin:

let me tell you why i hate ricers....first off....the majority of them (mabye all, im not real keen on anything) drive 4 cylinder peices of junk....yet they go out and buy them to race. they add wings, stickers, neons, and a coffee can to their car and hit the road.....they drive around like they're hot shit, pretending they're car can go fast....and theres nothing more annoying than the noise of a ricer trying to race....you know, its like a high pitched squealing....makes me want to vomit....anyway...ricers suck

fixed it for you. :smile:

argh this is why I hate hondas: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=115218

gay ass altezza taillights

argh this is why I hate hondas: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=115218

gay ass altezza taillights

Hmm.. there's a honda badge on my car.. but i see no altezza taillights...?

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/451000-451999/451956_6_full.jpg

^ well hondas with altezza taillights. And keep in mind, it's not the cars I hate, it's the people who rice em out and act great about it. I owned a civic before and my family owns more hondas than nissans (and lexus, but we only have one of those)

why do people think those look nice??? They are fugly

why do people think those look nice??? They are fugly

I don't think it's that they love them, it's that they suffer from a lack of knowledge about cars. They have the desire to modify their vehicles, but lack the necessary cash and brains to do it tastefully. Clear taillights are cheap, easy to install and, sadly, are a 'gateway mod' for many peoples cars. This is my theory on ricers anyway...

I will admit that when I was 16, driving my $400 1984 civic hatchback, I looked for clear taillights for it. Mostly because the existing lights were broken though. Then I found forums, which led me to better mods.

What, like a new car? :lol2:

What, like a new car? :lol2:

Yea.. actually. Part of the reason I bought the prelude was because of the people on the forum here.

..then you started typing. :rolleyes:

I don't think it's that they love them, it's that they suffer from a lack of knowledge about cars. They have the desire to modify their vehicles, but lack the necessary cash and brains to do it tastefully. Clear taillights are cheap, easy to install and, sadly, are a 'gateway mod' for many peoples cars. This is my theory on ricers anyway...



Exactly my stance on Hondas and "ricers". It's the optimistic viewpoint, if you will. Even though I own a 240 and like to go sideways instead of straight more often nowadays, I can still appreciate a nicely done Honda. Especially a Prelude...I see you own a 4th Gen Lude too. I'm considering getting a 4G VTEC and building an all motor monster. I would boost it...but I find alot more integrity and respect in a NA car. Well a NA Honda with drag racing in mind at least, as opposed to a boosted Honda built for dragging.

ok, so i drive a honda prelude too (3rd gen si) and i love it. sure, its a little plasticy on the interior, but hey, for 3000, ill take it.

and yeah, ive made mods, but there is a difference between mods, and style. no wings, no lights, no body kit, no aftermarket rims (though a set of 16 inch five spokes wouldnt be bad) no funny colors or stupid stickers. i even considered sanding the beast down and spray painting it flat black just so it would be less the ricer.

and ill be the first to admit my 4 banger b21a isnt the fastest engine in the world, but ive shown my tailights to more than my fair share of v-6 camaros and mustangs pulling up on me because they think their car is fast simply because of the name on the bumper.

its not the car that is hated, its the additude of the driver. car pride is one thing (i'll defend my car against any insult or attack) but car stupidity is another (no, your civic does NOT need a 4 foot wing on the back...indy cars dont have wings that big)

ok, so i drive a honda prelude too (3rd gen si) and i love it. sure, its a little plasticy on the interior, but hey, for 3000, ill take it.

and yeah, ive made mods, but there is a difference between mods, and style. no wings, no lights, no body kit, no aftermarket rims (though a set of 16 inch five spokes wouldnt be bad) no funny colors or stupid stickers. i even considered sanding the beast down and spray painting it flat black just so it would be less the ricer.

and ill be the first to admit my 4 banger b21a isnt the fastest engine in the world, but ive shown my tailights to more than my fair share of v-6 camaros and mustangs pulling up on me because they think their car is fast simply because of the name on the bumper.

its not the car that is hated, its the additude of the driver. car pride is one thing (i'll defend my car against any insult or attack) but car stupidity is another (no, your civic does NOT need a 4 foot wing on the back...indy cars dont have wings that big) I don't dislike hondas.They are very economical cars. I'm just curious.You bought the car for $3000.00.How much would it cost to make it really fast???

define really fast.

i have no trouble defeating other NA four bangers and many NA 6's. even beat a v8 once (dodge truck, on the highway, no big deal)

all this with only (quick estimate) $350 dollars worth of intake, headers, and exhaust work.

plenty fast for me.

but if you mean to make it run 12's or 11's....jesus man, we're looking at another 5-6 grand for the h22a swap, then another 3 grand for the turbo kit, a grand or so in suspension upgrades.....etc etc etc

point being about 3500 down the road ive got a quick car, that still gets 35 miles to the gallon (in the city no less) and IMHO looks pretty nice (please note, it is still BONE STOCK in appearance, if you dont notice the flowmaster muffler, which most people dont.)

sure, it wont outrun a GS-T, but im only 19 and still in college. ive got awhile to go. lord knows i wont be driving this car all my life.

A Turbo H22 still gets 35 mpg, think you'd better check on that!

sorry, i think you misunderstood me.

my car currently (thats $3500 including mods) gets 35 mpg.

sorry for the confusion. im not THAT stupid

oh, my bad

i hate honda's cause some of them are black. Does that make me a racist or a riceist?

My truck is white, White Power!

Yes

wtf are you talking about

I can see why people hate Hondas. First of all, Hondas are imports that are affordable and popular among teens. Younger people tend to "sup" up these cars becasue their cheap and look "cool." Second they are the most stolen cars in the United States. Personally, I think Hondas are OK. But what I hate about them is that people think that their little "rice rocket" can outrun a Ferrari or Lamborghini. A while back, Some guy in his Civic was saying shit that his Civic can eat my Subaru. Turns out I beat him easily.

of course

I like most cars anyways. Hondas arent that bad


the only thing I hate about them is that everyone has one(well,almost)

so do you hate hondas, or do you hate everyone for buying the same brand?

I can see why people hate Hondas. First of all, Hondas are imports that are affordable and popular among teens. Younger people tend to "sup" up these cars becasue their cheap and look "cool." Second they are the most stolen cars in the United States. Personally, I think Hondas are OK. But what I hate about them is that people think that their little "rice rocket" can outrun a Ferrari or Lamborghini. A while back, Some guy in his Civic was saying shit that his Civic can eat my Subaru. Turns out I beat him easily.

I agree with you. I hate when kids in thier rice rockets think there so hotshit. It's funny to see how they think they're the best with thier hondas!

I agree with you. I hate when kids in thier rice rockets think there so hotshit. It's funny to see how they think they're the best with thier hondas!

You could say that about any car owners.. except for maybe the pagani or mclaren group..

I don't hate hondas (that much) it really depends on if they are way too Lookish...but there is nothing wrong with it.

I don't haye Honda's either...I just hate the cars that have bigger stickers than wings and tha jack-ass half brain spoiled little bratt driving it and claiming to have the fastest car because of a couple of gt-r and type-r badges.

so do you hate hondas, or do you hate everyone for buying the same brand?
I said In my last post that I dont hate hondas. Hondas are cool with me :smile:

People hate Hondas for one reason. To be trendy and disguise the fact that they know nothing.

Most people over look the fact that Honda along with Alfa Romeo and Peugeot/Citroen and most recently Ford/Mazda (focus, KA, Fiesta, Mondeo, 2, 3, 6), have pioneered the entertaining Front-drive chassis.

Even a base model Civic provides an entertaining drive, with dynamics far better than any other Front-drive Small-Medium Japper. Except maybe the Mazda3.

Or how about 250 bhp out of a 2.0 16 valve N/A 4 Cylinder motor?? Very few have matched that.

Nothing wong with Honda at all, only Ferrari and BMW can out-engineer them.

Even a base model Civic provides an entertaining drive, with dynamics far better than any other Front-drive Small-Medium Japper. Except maybe the Mazda3.


The TS Corolla is a fuckload more fun to drive than any Civic I've driven (which is pretty much all of them, from the new 1.7L ones to the dirty old "Hondamatic" ones, and the b16A powered SiR.)

As for the honda-hating thing, some of it is ignorance, and some of it is fueled by stupid Honda-owning ricers who talk a lot of shit, like the guy at my work who to this day claims he beat an EVO5 on the motorway in his DC2 integra (which is a really nice car by itself, but not quite evo5- wasting material.
Honda makes some of the worlds best N/A engines, its a shame it gets a bad name as a result of stupid people buying their cars.

^ their only good n/a engine is the S2k, other than that all the other ones are made for fuel efficiency. the NSX"s engine is good too but way too much for it's price.

Are you saying they didnt have any good performance-oriented engines before the S2000 came out?

What n/a 2.0L has 250HP??? The S2K has 240

Are you saying they didnt have any good performance-oriented engines before the S2000 came out?

compared to other engines, not really. H22A's aren't all that great, b18c's aren't that great either. non-turboed four bangers that get good mileage, get 15s in 1/4 mile, aren't considered good performance-oriented engines. And any FWD car isn't considered a performance oriented racing car either.

Honda's very first cars were sports cars, the S500, S600, S800. The engines offered decent output for their size.
Even their non-performance cars offered rather good outputs, the N360 giving good ammount from 360cc, though much higher revving than it's 2-stroke competitors, and less well behaved (but less smoke too!)
They didn't make the highest powered engine in the 360 class, that goes to Mitsubishi, but they were one of the first companies to believe that buyers of small cars might want some more fun, and took aim at the younger section of the market, otherwise Subaru would've probably continued dominating Japan's small car market.

the h22a isnt that great eh?

lets not forget there are NA H22's running low ten's

thats not a half bad engine if you ask me

compared to other engines, not really. H22A's aren't all that great, b18c's aren't that great either. non-turboed four bangers that get good mileage, get 15s in 1/4 mile, aren't considered good performance-oriented engines. And any FWD car isn't considered a performance oriented racing car either.

Hey man.. at least Honda didn't have to use boost to get there.. [cough]GS-X/GS-T[ccough/] As far as racing is concerned, reliability is an issue as well. :biggrin:

As far as FWD is concerned, I know you can pull a g on the skidpad with minor suspension work in a prelude.. I can't say the same about the teg, but being lighter, and having a bigger aftermarket, I wouldn't imagine it's much different. I have personally shook a few cars, that'd be faster on the straight, through the corners.

Wont a 200hp ITR take a 220hp Silvia stock for stock anyway?

^ Maybe an Integra Type R can take a SR20DET-powered silvia but the sr20det is a lot cheaper than the b18c type r engine, and almost the same speed. I'd say balls out performance engine is the VQ35DE engine (287 out of a 3.5 liter V6 with a lot of possibilities is pretty damn good), RB26DETT, LS1's, 2jz's, 4g63's (not too reliable though), and F20c's. I'm not saying the H22C is a bad engine, quite the opposite it's good, but it's not balls out performance designed. It's a 4-banger gas efficient engine also, which isn't a bad thing. My KA24DE engine is also a 4-banger gas efficient engine with a lot of possibilities, but I won't say it's an all-out performance engine.

most of those you mentioned are either huge displacement or boosted.

the h22a is fuel efficient due to its small (well, relativly) displacment, and efficient fuel system, not its performance

anything that can run a NA 10 second quarter is a pretty balls out engine.

I'd say balls out performance engine is the VQ35DE engine (287 out of a 3.5 liter V6 with a lot of possibilities is pretty damn good), RB26DETT, LS1's, 2jz's, 4g63's (not too reliable though), and F20c's.

The C30A put 270 out of a 3.0 liter V6 engine..
The C32A put 290 out of a 3.2 liter V6 engine..

I'm glad nissan is catching up though, and making it affordable, for I love their cars.

The RB26DETT is a wonderful engine, as well as the 2JZ.

The 4g63 is the engine I was talking about in the eclipse GSX/GS-T. You know.. the one that needs to be boosted to get up to the H22A and B18C5/6/7.

I know honda engines aren't the greatest ever, but please don't say they aren't very great compared to other cars in the same class. It makes us riceboys feel bad.

^ the C30A and C32A's are also ripoffs, the NSX car is a hugely overinflated price for speed. 90k for a car that puts out 290 hp?? 350z costs far less than half it's price and puts out 3 less horsepower, not to mention has more torque. But yes I know NSX owners don't get it for speed only, it's the whole quality of the car, great suspension, interior, and engineering, but I still think it's a ripoff for $90k.

I left out a lot of engines designed entirely for performance, I just gave some examples. The C32 is definetly a great engine. I guess honda engines rn't bad but it's more of the car, real performance cars aren't FWD 4-bangers but some riceboys try to make it one. But whatever people do what they want with their money so I don't care, I just think it's a bad move and waist of money.

I'd just like to say I am sick of all the arrogant Honda owners with their over-inflated egos. I have an '02 LS! Camaro and am sick of $1K Hondas telling me they can smoke me, blah blah blah. Even a Type R in a hatch or the H22 shouldn't be able to touch me, Y can't they just be realistic about their cars... I don't go around tellin Z06, Viper, Porsche owners I can rip them... It's very immature.

^ exactly, be modest about your car. Don't say it's the next best thing since sliced bread. Don't say just b/c it's a honda it's the best car ever. And definetly don't try to step up to better cars and say you are faster when you have a crappy Civic.

When it comes to life I consider myself a realist rather than an optimist... the glass is neither half empty of half full... it is 50% fluid 50% air. Y in your right mind would you tell a car with double or over double your HP and triple your torque you ca smoke them? It's simple Math here.

They've built a plane now, the HondaJet.

Its small, slow and ugly.

Seems they've built the aviation version of the Civic.

HAHA hilarious!

I would never drive any Honda except for a motorcycle or an S2000, oh and an NSX... none of the others are FWD or AWD so they suck in my opinion...

I think everyone hates hondas for the same reasons as I do:
1. WAY TOO COMMON!!
2. People put on a muffler and think their car is fast
3. Neons seem to be popular among honda drivers
4. They are all FWD(except the 2 previously noted)
5. Too many posers have hondas

that pretty much sums it up

Werd. I think for 90k, the NSX should come with a hi-po honda V8. Would that be the first production v8 honda makes?

if I were to ever stoop to the level of getting rid of my rotary and buying a V8, I deffinately would not buy one from Honda... I mean think about it... Honda=4cyl

Hmm i wonder why Japanese cars don't make V8s, if they can get incredible out of 2.0 inline 4s (S2k - 240 hp) and 3.2-3.5 V6s (350z - 287 hp, NSX - 290) imagine what they could do with a big block V8 engine like a 5.5. They could finally make japanese muscle n/a engine power without use of a turbo. I wonder why they do'nt just create one vehicle that does that. What is the highest hp a japanese car makes anyways?? The only one I can think on top of my head right now is the 350z, 287 hp. Or the NSX, 290 hp.

The technology to build a big block v8 is totally different than that used in smaller engines... that is Y we v8 owners laugh when honda owners say "120hp/Liter, ha, so if we made a 5.7L just imagine how powerful...blah blah blah" This is untrue, the enginering of the S2K motor cannot be duplicated on a larger scale, and BTW it only makes all that "Power" because it's damn redlind is at 9K. So the feat of small Jap engines cannot be duplicated in bigger blocks. And they have a few v8s, in Toyota and Lexus trucks for example. Obviously they've seen no reason to apply that motor to their Supra. To me, the Japanese believe in making power through speed rather than through strength (Revs vs. Torgue, TTs vs. V8s).

The reason they probably don't make V8s is because they can get the same power out of an I6 or V6 or even a 4cyl. The new evo and STIs are making 300bhp from a 2 liter inline four. They have what is called a turbocharger now. That little snail shaped thing that replaces displacement...

V8s weigh too much, probably wouldn't be as reliable, and aren't as fuel efficient. You can make almost 1000hp on the stock bottom end of a 2JZ.. Why would you want a V8 in a small japanese car? Maybe if you had a lug around a big truck, and need the torque.

When it comes to life I consider myself a realist rather than an optimist... the glass is neither half empty of half full... it is 50% fluid 50% air. Y in your right mind would you tell a car with double or over double your HP and triple your torque you ca smoke them? It's simple Math here.

It's called power to weight ratio. By your logic, a 100hp motorcycle shouldn't be able to beat a 200hp car, but it will. It's simple math here.

Not to mention the money invested in either car. Sure, if you spend 50k on a 'real' sports car you will have a nicer car stock. Take the same amount of money and put it into your 3-5k used honda and you have something great (while paying less insurance). Same can be said for any old used car.

Most of the time, when people hate a certain car, they do so from the experiences they have had with the drivers of the said car. For example, there has only been one 240 owner I have ever met that hasn't been a cocky asshole. It's really disappointing. :disappoin However, I wouldn't mind owning a 240. They have much potential, and a strong aftermarket.

I bet the majority of people that trash hondas have never driven a decently modded one.

I'm not saying the H22C is a bad engine, quite the opposite it's good, but it's not balls out performance designed. It's a 4-banger gas efficient engine also, which isn't a bad thing. .


If they designed it to be more "gas efficient", they would've made it an open deck engine. Your ka24 does'nt have shit agiasnt an H22. The only advantage it'll have is that it's in a RWD chassis which makes for a better launch. But then agian, an H22 in a civi will probably launch on your 240.

If they designed it to be more "gas efficient", they would've made it an open deck engine. Your ka24 does'nt have shit agiasnt an H22. The only advantage it'll have is that it's in a RWD chassis which makes for a better launch. But then agian, an H22 in a civi will probably launch on your 240.

That's why he mentioned that his was a gas efficient engine too later on, and not a performance engine.

If they designed it to be more "gas efficient", they would've made it an open deck engine. Your ka24 does'nt have shit agiasnt an H22. The only advantage it'll have is that it's in a RWD chassis which makes for a better launch. But then agian, an H22 in a civi will probably launch on your 240.

I never said my KA24 was a performance engine, it's pretty much designed the same as an H22, gas efficient and low on insurance. I never said my 240 was a super-car either. I am going to be realistic and say it's slow compared to other cars, and yes even slower than an H22 in a Civic and probably in a prelude also. But I don't like Hondas anyways, 240s has more advantage than just that. It's a lot more unique and different, I see preludes and Civics everywhere, ppl who own em are lemmings. That and 240 is a much more fun car to drive, better handling, near 50/50 weight distro, and lets not forget one of the best drifters out there, something no Honda can do.

It's all preference though, Preludes and Civics with H22's are faster than my car, but I'd rather take the advantages the 240 has than just owning a Honda.

If they designed it to be more "gas efficient", they would've made it an open deck engine. Your ka24 does'nt have shit agiasnt an H22. The only advantage it'll have is that it's in a RWD chassis which makes for a better launch. But then agian, an H22 in a civi will probably launch on your 240.

another thing is, I can say the same. An RB26DETT in my 240 will launch anything on any honda, I don't really see where you are getting at. I never said KA24DE's were the shit

[QUOTE=Prelewd]Most of the time, when people hate a certain car, they do so from the experiences they have had with the drivers of the said car.QUOTE]

this is very true for me... like I said a lot of honda drivers seem to think they are the coolest dude with the best car or whatever, but not all are like that, just the idiots make a bad image for the rest of the honda guys.

then theres mustangs.. late 60's mustangs I love, but anything newer basically I hate... partially because they are way too common like a civic or the such. also most new mustang drivers seem to be dick heads and full of themselves, and I really dislike stuck up people and rude people and most mustang drivers I have met/talked to seem to be that way... although I will say that mustangs have the best rear end, the gears are far better than any others... even my friend with a camaro wants to put a mustang rear end in his camaro because its so good... and he hates mustangs as much if not more than me

Even if it has 50/50 weight weight balance, does'nt mean it has better handling than a Civic. A Civic with 60/40 weight balance can have better handling than a 50/50 RWD car. You read Car&dDriver too much. You listed things that you think make your 240 better but they really don't mean shit.

It makes a better drifter?!? WOOWW, but look, civics have more trunk space! (sarcastic) .

A more fun car to drive? It might be more fun for you, but not more fun to me, that's just a matter of your opinion, and it's can't be taken as a fact. You might as well explain to me why red it better than blue.

you have a point that fun is opinion, but when you say a 60/40 FWD civic handles better than my 50/50 RWD rx-7 I laugh... hard! RWD handles much better than FWD which is why it is so widely used in all kinds of racing. and 50/50 weights ratio makes a car handle a lot better... its just a fact, you can't argue with facts man... you can say you like the way your FWD handles better than a RWD does but I guarantee that a RWD handles better than a FWD

^ yep, and being a good drifter does mean shit. It means it has great handling, great control, near 50/50 weight distribution, and a great solid chassis. To say your FWD can handle better than a 50/50 distro RWD is stupid, car and driver is probably more factual correct than whatever you are reading.

And you are right, a fun car to drive is opinion, but I am sure the vast majority would think a RWD 240sx that can corner like no other be more fun to drive than a FWD Civic that understeers.

Look, you two are arguing behind a fuckin computer screen. I was at a race today where the Civic that we have on our race team is about 60/40 weight distribution, and it takes on miatas all day. a 60/40 balanced fwd car can do better than a 50/50 balanced fwd OR rwd car. For RWD, 50/50 is good, but for fwd, 50/50 is not neccasary, the driver on our team preferrs more weight on the front end and he likes to toss the rear end around, it's his driving style. What you read in motor-trend and Car&driver about 50/50 bieng perfect does'nt apply to all cars.

Soyo, laugh all you want when I say 60/40 can sometimes be better than 50/50, but what I'm laughing at is how you're acting like you know suspension setup. You can't really say RWD will handle better than fwd in every situation. If it was like that, Mustangs would outhandle Civics, but that's unlikley. And the for the opposite, fwd won't always outhandle rwd. It's like saying v8s are always better than v6s because they have more power, it does'nt mean there are'nt v6s more powerful than v8's. So pull your head out of your ass and start talkin when you know what the fuck you're talkin about you little dipshit.

BTW, I don't read what Car&driver have to say about weight balance and crap, what I talk about comes from expierience, it comes from helping build a class winning N.A.S.A Honda Challenge Civic.

50/50 means a perfect balance, but like I said, fwd with more weight based on the front can handle just as good as perfectly balanced rwd cars assuming the fwd still has a good setup. It's like saying a 300 HP car will always beat a 200 Hp car because it's more powerful, but what if the 200 hp car is much lighter???

EDIT:

Miata. RWD. 50/50 balance= .95 G's on the skidpad
Evo8. 4wd. 60/40 balance= .95 g's on the skidpad

But what went wrong? according to you, the 50/50 miata was supposed to do better than the 60/40 Evo. I guess you were wrong.

Obviously power to weight comes into play, but most normal street cars are within 1000lb. of each other, which is say a + or - 40% while HP varies by 200% or 300%. I do believe even w/ an H22 my LS1 will still have a better power/weight ratio than a civic hatch, so it is still illogical for the immature honda owner to get up in my face about how badass his car is.
BTW, an I6 with TWO turbos weighs about THE SAME as my ALUMINUM 350 LS1.
The days of unreliability are over, my enigne is just as reliable as yours as long as I maintain it properly.
Another acurate figure to look at would be Torque to Weight ratio, since torque is the actual force the moves the mass (weight) of the car... last time I checked, my V8's was vastly superior.

yup, and whats even better is i saw a test once where a camaro kept up with and beat supras, 240's and preludes on a road course. ill see if i cant find it again.

now, lets drop that ls1 into something that doesnt look like a door wedge... :D

now, lets drop that ls1 into something that doesnt look like a door wedge... :D

..and lets see them do it with an inline 6.

I like the look of the newer camaros though.. except the nose and the side mirrors.

EDIT: and the gawdy interior.

^ yea the interior is very cheap in American cars sports car (well F-bodies and mustangs) which I don't like at all. My friend's firebirds and camaros have plastic ugly interiors, very cheap lookin.

Anyways domestics will be faster than imports fully modded, I don't like to admit this either but they are. You say small engines have turbo to match their V8 engines, but they can be boosted also. My friend goes to this track all the time in Flordia, where the richest people are. The fastest cars are domestics, they had a Corvette made out of fiberglass and ran 6s in the 1/4 mile. Last week he said he saw a mustang and firebird go at it, the firebird got 7.3 secs while the mustang got a 7.0 flat. The firebird had a 700ci engine in it. They only have domestic cars there that go this fast, the fastest import there was recorded at 8.8 seconds, which was accomplished by a Supra. There really is no replacement for displacement.

But I really don't care because I don't want a car that fast, 12 seconds and I'm happy. An import can accomplish that without too much effort, plus I like the styling of it a lot more than domestics, generally has better handling (than the F-bodies, and stangs), and I don't know American cars has a cheap feeling to me. Like someone else said, American cars are "cheap hp." They have the best value for speed, but they lack in other areas. Cheap interiors, engines that don't last as long (yes I know they can last long joseph, but if you visit import vs domestic forums, the american car owners have a lot more problems still and don't last as long). And I dunno, when I get in an American car and drive one, it doesn't feel the same as my Nissan. I can't control it as well and doesn't seem like I'm one with my car, my sis agrees, she calls it a "toy car." But it's all opinion, when you want to feel speed it definetly gets that accomplished. And I'm sure others think American cars are much more fun to drive than imports just b/c it has a big V8 engine rumble with speed. It all just depends which each person

But Prelewd, you can't admit that it is true, a v8 will always be better? Today they are just as ligght as I6 TTs, just as powerful, more Torque, more displacement (for which there is no replacement), higher top speeds. My car weighs about the same as a Supra might be a few lighter, has more Torque, more power.
I like to "feel" my power, like neck-snapping, rather than drive an S2K where it is all rev power, but I guess that is personal taste... but now waht if my LS1 redline at 9K, I'd still be snapping my neck off the line, and my peak HP would be 525!!!
I don't think my car is CHEAP. The interior in Integras, 240s, Civics, are all pretty much the same, if not cheaper!!! I've sat in all these to know. The only car that might have a better interior is a Supra, but with a $40K price tag it better, and I know the Vette has a much nicer interior than my camaro... you get what you pay for!

Torque is overrated. Torque is nothing without RPM.

what if import car makers (lets keep in mind, imports dont just come from japan) used the same effeciency as they do now, but had 350 CI to play around with. could you imagine the 350 that honda would put out? my right foot is itching at the thought.

^ they aren't going to, and like joseph said, dynamics are different. If it wasn't different then they would have made a V8 with tons of hp by now. I think 240 interiors are nice, a lot nicer than my friend's camaro. I like how the vents are on the side of the doors, and the dash is slopin with the center console. All for a very cockpit-sleek feel. The material is also high quality vinyl.

The F-bodies the material is all plastic and cheap, and there's really no design also. It's just there to get the job done. And civic interiors suck, cheap cars anyways you can't compare. INtegra's are nice

I can respect your opinion, but my friend's s13 interior is pretty much the same as mine IMO. I didn't ever really notice if it is plastic or vinyl. My car's is mostly plastic, i mean, all the cars in tihs range have pretty much the same s*it. Your 240 pretty much has the same options I have... I have a driver's power seat and that's about it, no heated seats or wood grain or anything.

Oh, One thing I can thing of is that making an S2K style v8... well, first I think it would require too much energy and stress to have all those parts, bigger parts, moving that fast. They also move w/ a lot more force (torque).

^ oh wait yea s13 interiors aren't that nice, they're normal. I have the s14, that's when nissan tried to make it more of a luxury appearance.

Either way man.. I have both :smile:..

327 with a carter 650, 3/4 race cam and oversized heads in a '65 chev pickup. While it's fun to drive, it's not practical at all. That's why I bought a honda.

^ what do you mean you have both? both what?

Both a v8 torque monster (in the truck) and a 4 cyl. in the Prelude, I'm assuming.
Prelewd... I just hope you are not like the as*hole honda owners around here that aren't logical. It's as simple as a performance car isn't FWD, even honda knows this (S2K and NSX). Everyone has their taste, I've always like sports cars, and since I could never have a Vette, I got what Chevy intended as its alternative. But a Civic hatch w/ a B18 or an H22 is by NO MEANS a sports car... why can't they just get it.

Both a v8 torque monster (in the truck) and a 4 cyl. in the Prelude, I'm assuming.
Prelewd... I just hope you are not like the as*hole honda owners around here that aren't logical. It's as simple as a performance car isn't FWD, even honda knows this (S2K and NSX). Everyone has their taste, I've always like sports cars, and since I could never have a Vette, I got what Chevy intended as its alternative. But a Civic hatch w/ a B18 or an H22 is by NO MEANS a sports car... why can't they just get it.

and i hope you are not one of those ignorant camaro owners around here that aren't logical.

FWD cars can be made to handle. they can be made to compete in autocross events, and larger sanctioned track racing events, both of which (last time i checked) are sports. many even compete against similarly tuned BMWs and win.

they might not be a true sports car, but the definition of which is relavant to how you were raised, and what you have driven in the past. personally, i can't afford an NSX, so i drive what honda intended as it's alternative: the prelude.

like i have said before, do not discount a car based merely on the fact that it's FWD.

No, in fact, I can respect a Type R, it really is a honda race machine. But there re Honda owners out there w/ BASE model cars no less, slapping on intake and exhaust, maybe wires and plugs, and talking shit to me. Like I said, I don't talk shit to Viper or Vette owners, Y can't these guys do the same. Even a Prelude or a Type R has virtually no chance...
Ok, let me say this... If someone comes through with a really built up honda, he has my respect... this kid around here has a red hatch w/ two racing seats, and some kind of custom built LS-Vtec w/ spoon parts, his older bro owns the nearest Honda performance shop. I can't touch him, but I can admit that. But they rest of these guys. Then they think that by dropping in a Type R or an H22 they will beat me. And all the rest of the ricers who have slow cars back them up, "ooo, it's FAST". But then Y is it these guys are never up street racing w/ the 5.0s and such. It's such BS, you tell me?

Oh, and they think that my car is a GIANT piece of metal and that they weigh next to nothing in their small lane-zipping imports... the most they could have on me is what, 800lb. They act like they have a ton.

No, in fact, I can respect a Type R, it really is a honda race machine. But there re Honda owners out there w/ BASE model cars no less, slapping on intake and exhaust, maybe wires and plugs, and talking shit to me. Like I said, I don't talk shit to Viper or Vette owners, Y can't these guys do the same. Even a Prelude or a Type R has virtually no chance...
Ok, let me say this... If someone comes through with a really built up honda, he has my respect... this kid around here has a red hatch w/ two racing seats, and some kind of custom built LS-Vtec w/ spoon parts, his older bro owns the nearest Honda performance shop. I can't touch him, but I can admit that. But they rest of these guys. Then they think that by dropping in a Type R or an H22 they will beat me. And all the rest of the ricers who have slow cars back them up, "ooo, it's FAST". But then Y is it these guys are never up street racing w/ the 5.0s and such. It's such BS, you tell me?

I couldn't tell you because I'm not one of them.

And 800lbs is quite a bit of weight.

But you see my point, it's those people that lead to threads like these... and 800lb. isn't so much when I have 3X's the Torque they have.

I'm goin to have to agree with Joseph, american's out of the factory come with a lot more hp than any Civics, H22As, or Type Rs. And with a little bit more money, it will kill any h22a or b18c type r's, the honda engines will have to be modded quite a bit. and FWD aren't true sports cars, they do have some advantages that u stated prelewd, but that's not why they were made that way. They were made that way to be practical, economical, insurance saving.

But whatever floats your boat, if you like FWD preludes, fine.

I'm goin to have to agree with Joseph, american's out of the factory come with a lot more hp than any Civics, H22As, or Type Rs. And with a little bit more money, it will kill any h22a or b18c type r's, the honda engines will have to be modded quite a bit. and FWD aren't true sports cars, they do have some advantages that u stated prelewd, but that's not why they were made that way. They were made that way to be practical, economical, insurance saving.

But whatever floats your boat, if you like FWD preludes, fine.

Personally, I'd rather have a RWD Z car, but it's something I can't really afford right now. I know american "muscle cars" come out of the factory with more hp and torque. That's what they were built for. If this was an America vs. Japan thread, I'd bring up Cavaliers, focus', and neons.

I don't feel like you guys understand what I'm saying, and as a result, are labeling me one of those idiots that puts plug wires on his car and expects a huge gain.

Drive a well built honda and you'll see what I mean. It doesn't even have to be the motor that's built.. just some minor suspension work. It's like everyday, I go go-karting, and I love the hell out of it.

i don't see what everyones deal is with Hondas....well i kinda do

itz the same with those few other car owners that do a lil to their car and go out and try and race....the only difference is that hondas a re cheaper and easier to come by and that there is a huge aftermarket...

but a lot of honda owners get on my newvers like a few other car owners who buy an exhaust and som lights and think they have a hooked up ride...stupid in my opnion...when i had my civic i had my car lowered, 2-1/4" exhaust with a turbo muffler and upper and lower braces....u may say that's not much (wich is isn't in a straight line) but i used mu honda where it benefited most....in the corners....it handled like a champ...

but most people forget that yes hondas aren't sports cars...they're like sports "compact" cars and i commend those that hook up their cars and choose function over form...yes it takes money to hook them up but any project you enjoy...u pay....and that's with any type of car....

but the whole thing with people hating on hondas and their owners is completely retarded...itz a car...and the car reflects the owner...if u wanna hate on anything....hate on the owners taste and not my grandma b/c she drives a civic

I don't hate it that much, it's the dellusional assholes that I hate. I can respect true enthusists, like the one I mentioned or Erick's racing 10 sec hondas all-motor. If I had mad money to play w/ I'd probably try one for my next car... y buy another muscle car, been there, done that, still love em though. The Type R is prety good for what it is, and built up will run w/ older v8s. I told you I just can't stand the ignorant owners and their dellusions.

I don't hate it that much, it's the dellusional assholes that I hate. I can respect true enthusists, like the one I mentioned or Erick's racing 10 sec hondas all-motor. If I had mad money to play w/ I'd probably try one for my next car... y buy another muscle car, been there, done that, still love em though. The Type R is prety good for what it is, and built up will run w/ older v8s. I told you I just can't stand the ignorant owners and their dellusions.

Neither can we man..

Tell me what is wrong with hondas.

I do not hate Honda but there are several things wrong with Honda's, japanese cars and other products, and Japan itself.

First problem is that Japanese companies grease the press. We call it bribery but they call it something else. Whatever it is it gives the consumer a distorted view of reality. What author could resist a 300% bonus for favoring one product over another similar one. Grease works to cloud our vision.

Secondly, they grease the politicians to pass favorable laws. For example the British politicians passed a law requiring all motorcyles to shift on the Japanese instead of the British side. Stupidity? ...no it was grease!

Thirldly these companies use industrial espionage on a regular basis and even have agents in competing companies. These fifth columnists cause massive damage. Remember this the next time you see a massively stupid corporate decision.

Last thing is, and this is obvious to me way up here in Canada, what does the future hold. After they have destroyed yet another one of your industries will they still be making nice to you? Japanese products are made using "just in time" production. That can only work long term with "just in time" consumption. They can only ensure that with legistation. Very soon you will have to replace your car with a new one ever four years because anything older will not pass inspection.

The great mystery to me is why so many people in North America are so trusting of companies that come from a country that we were at war with only a few decades ago. Is there any chance that all has not been forgiven?

Think about it.

Last thing is, and this is obvious to me way up here in Canada, what does the future hold. After they have destroyed yet another one of your industries will they still be making nice to you? Japanese products are made using "just in time" production. That can only work long term with "just in time" consumption. They can only insure that with legistation. Very soon you will have to replace your car with a new one ever four years because anything older will not pass inspection.



what do you mean by "just in time" production? japan makes arguably the world's most reliable cars. My very good friend here does vehicle testing for the past 7 months - about 20 cars a day and he has NEVER failed a japanese car newer than 1999. Seeing as hes only had his WOF license for a short while and is paranoid of losing it, he follows the (reasonably strict) rules religiously. He has however, failed more than their fair share of Ford Mondeo, Falcon, Holden Commodore etc...The whole reason why the Japanese are getting more popular is because of their price/quality...maybe the other manufacturers should follow suit, before its too late

"just in time" is an efficient means of production, that gets rid of time and space wasting warehouses - parts arrive where they need to be "just in time" instead of waiting around in warehouses. Obviously, MB has no idea what this system is because of the way he refers to it, and the ideas he holds about it.
Secondly, the Japanese government ENCOURAGES the Japanese people to buy foreign products, especially products from America.
Thirdly, all companies keep an eye on what their competitors are doing! To not do so would be plain stupid! All corporations do it, not just the Japanese - there are some major misconceptions being passed around here.
I may also add, that many Japanese companies operate on principles invented by an American... Edward Demming. The Japanese, eager to rebuild their industry and economy in the 1950s adopted his ideas - the American companies who were having a fine time, saw no reason to adopt his ideas for better corporate management, a decision they began to regret much later. Ford even had Mr. Demming come in to give them advice, he left frustrated because they didn't really want to change, so he left... and the Japanese companies continue to prosper...

"just in time" is an efficient means of production, that gets rid of time and space wasting warehouses - parts arrive where they need to be "just in time" instead of waiting around in warehouses. Obviously, MB has no idea what this system is because of the way he refers to it, and the ideas he holds about it.
Secondly, the Japanese government ENCOURAGES the Japanese people to buy foreign products, especially products from America.
Thirdly, all companies keep an eye on what their competitors are doing! To not do so would be plain stupid! All corporations do it, not just the Japanese - there are some major misconceptions being passed around here.
I may also add, that many Japanese companies operate on principles invented by an American... Edward Demming. The Japanese, eager to rebuild their industry and economy in the 1950s adopted his ideas - the American companies who were having a fine time, saw no reason to adopt his ideas for better corporate management, a decision they began to regret much later. Ford even had Mr. Demming come in to give them advice, he left frustrated because they didn't really want to change, so he left... and the Japanese companies continue to prosper...

I'd just like to add that "just in time" production cuts overhead. So does Demmings TQM that 2strokebloke mentioned, in that it effectively reduces the number of recalls and, in turn, saves the consumer time and money. There's a reason for japanese reliability, and it starts with a bunch of letters: TQM, SPC, QC, JIT just to name a few.

There is not going to be much savings with "just in time" if the unsold assembled automobiles must be kept in inventory. Assembled, the parts actually occupy a larger volume. This is what I meant originally, sorry for any confusion.

Japan is going to be nice to you only until they destroy the local industry. Then you will pay through the nose for your cars.

Already Toyota is the #1 automaker in the world by market value and Chrysler has been gobbled up by a German company. The other two probably only have a few years left. Who the heck wants a car that needs major work at 50,000 miles. Sadly, these are only the end of a long list of industries that have already been destroyed by the Axis powers since the war. These clandestine, conspiratorial industrial attacks must be stopped while there is still something left of America's main industry.

Step #1. Buy an American brand even if you know they are not better.

Step #2. Get politically smart and start asking the hard questions. If something looks stupid then you have almost certainly found corruption. Stupid people rarely come into positions of power, but smart con artists often fake stupidity.

There you have it. A simple two step process that you can do or have your economy die. The choice is yours.

I will not buy an american car(unless muscle). It is proven that american cars are sucky compared to european and japanese.

I'm not going to "buy American" just because it's not as good as what other countries make. That's silly, and stupid. It's your money, not a corporations, you might as well get the best you can for your money, instead of settling for something less, just because Nostalgia clouds your judgement.
The American companies are where they are now, because of their own mistakes. It's easy to blame others who do good for making you look bad, but the truth is, way back when the seeds for failure were planted, the companies were set on their paths because management reasoned that Americans would buy American products, even if the quality and reliability wasn't so good, because American consumers were more interested in good looks than they were in quality. That the ugly little VW was doing so well should have told them otherwise, but by the time the Japanese really started doing good, it was getting late to make changes - and many still held the same beliefs that they did in 50's and 60's. It's their own fault, and I'm not going to let them cry on my shoulder.

There is not going to be much savings with "just in time" if the unsold assembled automobiles must be kept in inventory. Assembled, the parts actually occupy a larger volume. This is what I meant originally, sorry for any confusion.

Japan is going to be nice to you only until they destroy the local industry. Then you will pay through the nose for your cars.

Already Toyota is the #1 automaker in the world by market value and Chrysler has been gobbled up by a German company. The other two probably only have a few years left. Who the heck wants a car that needs major work at 50,000 miles. Sadly, these are only the end of a long list of industries that have already been destroyed by the Axis powers since the war. These clandestine, conspiratorial industrial attacks must be stopped while there is still something left of America's main industry.

Step #1. Buy an American brand even if you know they are not better.

Step #2. Get politically smart and start asking the hard questions. If something looks stupid then you have almost certainly found corruption. Stupid people rarely come into positions of power, but smart con artists often fake stupidity.

There you have it. A simple two step process that you can do or have your economy die. The choice is yours.

GM and ford are still the biggest automakers in the world, bigger than any japanese company. and buying japanese cars is still good for american economy, reason is b/c japanese cars are being built here and puts american workers at work. Like 2strokebloke said, it's your money, don't let marketing or corporate loyalty cloud your judgement. I only buy quality stuff, therefore, i buy japanese makes.

I was confused about that statement about Toyota, as far as I know, by sheer Volume, GM is the largest Corporation in the World... period. No danger for them there.
I like American sports cars better, so I guess I'd buy them, as for other cars, american sedans etc are looking stupider and stupider.
On the topic on economics, the issue is two-fold.
The cars are built here in North America (some in Canada, some Mexico), but since they are produced by a Japanese company, the money goes back to Japan, it contributes to Japan's GNP, not ours, and adds to our negative balance of payments.

I was confused about that statement about Toyota, as far as I know, by sheer Volume, GM is the largest Corporation in the World... period.

Please let me clarify my statement. Thirty years ago GM was the world's largest automaker by all measures, volume, market value and profits. Today it is only the largest by volume with Toyota having a higher market value and better profits. GM is still strong in the low end with but that will soon change. Too much low-priced Detroit Iron now need major (>$500) repairs at 50 or 60 thousand miles. The U.S. automakers have been unsuccesful in convincing their customers that this is "normal wear and tear" and they are switching to other brands.

My sweetie who comes from an all Ford family has a sweet little 1995 Mystique. It has only 60,000 miles and was properly cared for. Neverthess it has cost, in addition to normal service fees, $1200 for repairs that are supposedly "normal wear and tear". For the first time in her life she is now looking at Toyotas.

I'm sorry but I don't see GM being #1 in anything five or ten years from now. This is sad because I come from an all GM family. My first car was a '62 Parisienne and my favorite car was a '69 Wildcat. Today I own a '97 Grand Am but am worried because it made the list of the world's worst cars. Apparently it has all the faults of a Lada or a Hyundai Pony but cost three times as much. This is not how GM got to be #1 and I expect that multi-billion dollar bailouts will soon follow unless they sell it off to foreigners.

Ok, what does it mean that Toyota has Higher Market Value??? And GM will always be the largest due to sheer size, no company is larger.

I think he means higher market value per unit. The depreciation isn't as high in Toyotas as it is in GMs.

Why Murray is telling us to buy GM is beyond me, especially after he clarified why most of us do not purchase GM. All they have to do, and they are working on this, is build their cars better. Take a note from the Japanese automakers.

The repair costs is so high because they do not design their cars to be worked on. Anybody who has torn apart a Honda and torn apart any american car knows what I'm talking about. Hondas are FAR easier to take apart and put back together.

Ok, what does it mean that Toyota has Higher Market Value??? And GM will always be the largest due to sheer size, no company is larger.

There are five measures commonly used to rank companies; sales, profits, assets, market value, and sometimes, the number of employees.

As I understand it the market value of a company is the total of the shares/debentures times their dollar value. An accountant or investment advisor would know more about it than I do.

At one time GM was #1 regardless of the criteria used to rank it. That is no longer true.

Why buy American when the cars are so lousy? Simply, because the banks do not have your money. They invested 90% of it in "blue chip" stocks like GM and IBM. If everyone buys foreign then the companies will collapse and the banks will put up signs saying something like "Closed - never to reopen" just like they did 70 years or so ago.

Everything in North America is interconnected and the real cost of buying foreign is much higher than you think.

P.S. My sweetie has just purchased a Ford Windstar. Guess we have just gotten too old to change our ways.

Hondas are FAR easier to take apart and put back together.


I agree.It takes no more than 30 minutes to change a Civic radiator, it took me and another friend 2 hours to change the radiator on a Ford Focus.

I agree.It takes no more than 30 minutes to change a Civic radiator, it took me and another friend 2 hours to change the radiator on a Ford Focus.
Well, that's probably because Ford has some of the weirdest ways of putting their cars together. My dad and I fixed an older body style Crown Vic and had to take the entire, and I mean ENTIRE dash out to change--are you ready?--a light and a fuse.

Honda's are good, rice is bad. Put them together, oh what a FAD!!!!!!!

Tell me what is wrong with hondas.

Nothing is wrong with Honda's except for the owners who turn themselves into brand nazi's are think that it is the best brand in the world and judge you negatively if you dont think the same. This can apply to owners of all brands....every group has their brand nazi's in them.

A REAL car enthusiast can be loyal to a favorite brand but can still appreciate what others have to offer. An elitist does not.

True car guys don't hate Honda, we hate rice. Try visiting anti-rice.com forums. Even though many members have RWD US built muscle cars there are many that have imports too. The site has nothing against imports, just dumb looking cars and fake performance products. :smile: Fast is fast, period. Looking good and going fast is all in the eye of the beholder.

Honda's are made to be budget economy cars... I'm tired of poeplegoing around thinking their Honda's are fast... y not brag to me about your high fuel economy. And then when poeple rice out their honda's and think they are sooo hot/fast... that is the most annoying thing. Tell you what, it's these assholes that are ruining it for you regular honda guys.

Everybody should drive an acura or a lexus. that would surely ruin the rep that these cars have built

Nothing beats a riced out GS300

wow, that was needlessly incendiary.

people love to hate hondas cuz they are superior in quality but not in styling and performance. Kind of like that smart geek in class.< but nobody hates him:)

Yes they do.

Yes they do.

HaH! I knew people hated me. And now I have proof

You're girl are'nt you?

The problem with Honda like everyone said are the ricers that own them. It is sooo annoying to hear the 70% of the Honda performance community brag about how there car is the fastest thing around and how they own everything blah blah blah, then you get on the forums or something like that and you see posts like "Shooting for 16's, any suggestions?" :screwy: That is the only thing that annoys me.

Where I live is like the epitomy of ricers; body kits, 4" exhaust, rear wing, blingin chromes....but oh? whats that? no work on the motor??


I personally respect anyone who puts hard work into their car to make it fast; I dont judge until I have all the facts, unfortunatly; not too many tuners around here, just ricers :disappoin

i find it humorous the changes we see given the region. here in arkansas, i see more toyotas and mitsubishi riced out than i see hondas (though we have our fair share of slow, winged civics..usually 88 models and older)

and back in dallas, i actually saw more slow domestics (especially 6 banger 'stangs) riced out than i did civics. in fact, there's some serious "sleeper rice" in that area. I pulled up on one girl in a four door civic just plastered with stickers and a huge wing, and the tin can exhaust thinkin "this is gonna be easy" and i about shit myself when she tore past me. the last thing i remember before i made a hasty right turn was her tailights and a blow off valve. pretty embarrasing.

anyways, yea, what were talking about?

define really fast.

i have no trouble defeating other NA four bangers and many NA 6's. even beat a v8 once (dodge truck, on the highway, no big deal)

all this with only (quick estimate) $350 dollars worth of intake, headers, and exhaust work.

plenty fast for me.

but if you mean to make it run 12's or 11's....jesus man, we're looking at another 5-6 grand for the h22a swap, then another 3 grand for the turbo kit, a grand or so in suspension upgrades.....etc etc etc

point being about 3500 down the road ive got a quick car, that still gets 35 miles to the gallon (in the city no less) and IMHO looks pretty nice (please note, it is still BONE STOCK in appearance, if you dont notice the flowmaster muffler, which most people dont.)

sure, it wont outrun a GS-T, but im only 19 and still in college. ive got awhile to go. lord knows i wont be driving this car all my life.
Sorry it took so long for the reply. I forgot about this thread. But, it's still going. $3500.00 is impressive for quickness. I know alot of the imports are pretty fast. I just can't get past that sound they make, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. To each their own I always say. By the way, graduate from college. I dropped out at 23. Now, I need to go back to make any kind of real money.

Hmm i wonder why Japanese cars don't make V8s, if they can get incredible out of 2.0 inline 4s (S2k - 240 hp) and 3.2-3.5 V6s (350z - 287 hp, NSX - 290) imagine what they could do with a big block V8 engine like a 5.5. They could finally make japanese muscle n/a engine power without use of a turbo. I wonder why they do'nt just create one vehicle that does that. What is the highest hp a japanese car makes anyways?? The only one I can think on top of my head right now is the 350z, 287 hp. Or the NSX, 290 hp.
Japanese companies do make v8's, I'm not sure if they put them in any of their cars. But, they put them in the Tundra,
(Toyota.) Nissan has a v8, ect. I don't doubt they could do amazing things if they really wanted to.Why they don't "just do it", is a mystery to me.I'm waiting to see what domestic and import companies do next.

There is not going to be much savings with "just in time" if the unsold assembled automobiles must be kept in inventory. Assembled, the parts actually occupy a larger volume. This is what I meant originally, sorry for any confusion.

Japan is going to be nice to you only until they destroy the local industry. Then you will pay through the nose for your cars.

Already Toyota is the #1 automaker in the world by market value and Chrysler has been gobbled up by a German company. The other two probably only have a few years left. Who the heck wants a car that needs major work at 50,000 miles. Sadly, these are only the end of a long list of industries that have already been destroyed by the Axis powers since the war. These clandestine, conspiratorial industrial attacks must be stopped while there is still something left of America's main industry.

Step #1. Buy an American brand even if you know they are not better.

Step #2. Get politically smart and start asking the hard questions. If something looks stupid then you have almost certainly found corruption. Stupid people rarely come into positions of power, but smart con artists often fake stupidity.

There you have it. A simple two step process that you can do or have your economy die. The choice is yours.
Have my economy die, hahahaha!!!!!!! There are quite a few import factories in the united states. They actually provide jobs to american citizens. I have an American car. Is it any better than the imports I have owned??? No, not really. I've had good and bad in both classes. I won't complain about my car. Although I've had really stupid problems with my domestic at lower miles than any import with high miles I've ever owned.

Step #1. Buy an American brand even if you know they are not better.

how about...no :disappoin that defeats the purpose of consumer spending...instead of askin to "us" to by a cheap quality american product...why not make "us" want to buy it by making the quality better

Would you want an engine with 500 LBS of torque but it would only spin to 1000 RPM??? NO, because an engine like would only make 92 HP.

Yeah, but it'd be the best damn 92hp around! Hell, at 1000rpm? It could climb hills in top gear at idle!

It would be good for a truck, but it probably would'nt make a good racing engine.

It would be able to haul, but not accelerate... HP and Torque work together.

Why would you want to race with such an engine?

It would be able to haul, but not accelerate... HP and Torque work together.

Torque and rpm work together, HP is just the sum of both rpm and Torque.

Torque is overrated, RPM is often ignored. If one engine made the same Hp as another, but had more torque...then the other one has more RPM.

Hey, use muscle guys don't hate all hondas, just the queers who talk shit all day long, and then when you see if that queer wants to race they say something like, i don't do drag, it's gay well, your the one that was saying that you would tear my 400 horse power nova to shreads, and now you back down, or sometimes they say that there car is set up for drifting, FUKN NEWSFLASH, you can't drift a front wheel drive car, at least not corectly

i think u mean...drift in the way u think is right...and yes fwd cars can...seen them do it on a vid from japan where they drift as good as rwd cars...continuous drifts...

but i can beat a 400hp nova...just walk past it when itz parked :lol2:

I don't mind Honda. Their quads, anyway. They probably pull harder than their cars...

I dont hate hondas I just prefer nissans. :biggrin:


Actaully I do like hondas like the NSX. Thats a honda to be reckond with.

Alot of people make fun of Hondas because they don't have 'torque'...they have a crapload of RPM which makes up for the lack of torque.

Hondas are pretty in yellow. They look and sound like a bumble bee as they speed past me and into a light post.

anybody know why he/\ got banned?

i can name a few reasons...

name away

go look at his last couple posts...

I did, nothing really bad stands out to me

Hahaha... all this arguing between domestics, importts... V8's and 4 bangers, honda and.. everything else, is all so useless and stupid!!!












We all know rotaries are the best ;)

Hahaha... all this arguing between domestics, importts... V8's and 4 bangers, honda and.. everything else, is all so useless and stupid!!!












We all know rotaries are the best ;)

yea! Pistons are for brake calipers!!!!1 j/k

Check out the RO_JA civic, civics like that are what we need to see. Instead we see civics with, faded bumpers, neons, stickers of stuff they dont have, and no horsepower or tourque. Also faggots watch the fast and furious movies and now all want skylines, evos, or rx7's. When our generation of import fans, and I mean the true ones, move on, our footsteps will be followed by those same little kids. Its a shame

The cars are built here in North America (some in Canada, some Mexico), but since they are produced by a Japanese company, the money goes back to Japan, it contributes to Japan's GNP, not ours, and adds to our negative balance of payments.

negative...
you're figuring wrong....
my wife and I both work at manufacturing plants here in the US, but we make foreign cars.
you say all the money goes back to Japan...
that's simply not true, not by a long shot....
all the income that my wife and I are paid, (over six figures), and the hundreds of thousands of americans employed by these corporations, spend their money right here in the US. If you still do not understand, consider the money we spend to pay our mortgages, kid's tuition, parents medical bills, car payments, etc., etc. That's money I made here and spent here at businesses that are established here and owned by people from here. Also, we can't forget about all of the american suppliers and vendors that does business with these same companies. We are all a part of the operating cost of these corporations, which is supported by the their total revenues. The average company worldwide, tries to make at least a 10% profit margin which is divided amongst the owners and re-invested. That leaves upwards, (on average), about 90% of revenues to pay for the cost of running their business.

hmm interesting thread.

navy ic, check time of last post, dont bring back old threads.

navy ic, check time of last post, dont bring back old threads.

the last post in this thread was TWO years ago,
but this TWENTY year old argument never died...

the last post in this thread was TWO years ago,
but this TWENTY year old argument never died...


if you feel like this really needs to be discussed then start a fresh thread and see how far that goes; not to mention that the response that brought this back up wasn't even to do with the original post, instead being a respose to a not so related comment made along the way.

in the mean time, go have a read of the forum guidelines (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/guidelines.html).

i'm going to close this one as it has served its purpose and then some.

in any case, it's always nice to have people who actually work within the industry, no matter at what level, to give a little insight to how things really are.