Turbo


xToRQuEx
02-07-2004, 05:56 PM
Whats the best watercooled turbo? anyone know out there???

SkylineUSA
02-07-2004, 06:26 PM
Best for what? Cooling? Power? Spool time? Lasting? Torque? Street power?

xToRQuEx
02-07-2004, 08:47 PM
overall best, ability to push me from 402whp to 800 with a lil help from other parts i drop in. (after engine rebuild and tranny,cams etc)

not doin this anytime soon but id like to be doin my research.

SkylineUSA
02-08-2004, 02:03 AM
You want 800 to the wheels?

Your going to need a heck of a lot more than just a turbo. I do not know why people get stuck a high horse power numbers.

If you build a 800hp car, and if its set up like all those Supra dyno queens. I could build a 600hp GTR and kick is butt.

Don't get caught in in the numbers.

What is your goal?

Best bang for the buck turbo wise are the HKS 2530s. If you want to do engine work, the HKS GT-RS are probably the way to go.

If you really stuck on the 800hp thing, a big T88 will probably get you there, but cars built like that are too laggy for me, plus more crap will break.

You could always use a shot of N2O to get you there. Direct port of course.

xToRQuEx
02-08-2004, 12:16 PM
Well this is way off in my plans. im plannig on getting a tranny that can comfortably hold more power first, then the engine rebuild. Then i would shoot for the turbo upgrade with the outlet pipes and what not at that time.

if at all possible get 800 with no lag, and no nitrous considering id rather not have it. this isnt set in stone tho, playin with options and information, still have time on my hands.

R33
02-08-2004, 07:43 PM
You want 800 to the wheels?

Best bang for the buck turbo wise are the HKS 2530s. If you want to do engine work, the HKS GT-RS are probably the way to go.

.

Sky, I heard that the GT-SS is about the same size (maybe smaller than GT2510) but cud give a 2510 output. Is the GT-RS about the same size as GT2530 but with greater power output potential? Wud appreciate your help.

xToRQuEx
02-08-2004, 09:10 PM
are either of these water-cooled?

R33
02-08-2004, 10:20 PM
I don't think so. They are oil cooled.

Ebola 33-t
02-08-2004, 10:32 PM
With an oil cooled turbo, are the lubricating and cooling sections kept seperate, or does it all run off the engine oil? Secondly, am i right in guessing that my T04 is water cooled, but uses oil from the engine to lubricate?

SkylineUSA
02-09-2004, 12:42 AM
Sky, I heard that the GT-SS is about the same size (maybe smaller than GT2510) but cud give a 2510 output. Is the GT-RS about the same size as GT2530 but with greater power output potential? Wud appreciate your help.


I do not know from personal experiance, but I have read on more than one board on the subject. This is what I know. The GT-SS is like between the 2510 and the 2530, but with its more updated design will spool quicker than the 2510, and produce more power than the 2510, but it will not produce more power than the 2530. The power band is a little better than the 2530, but the top end power of the 2530s are much greater than the GT-SS.

GT-RS is compared to the 2540, but with a bigger top end, and spools quicker, but in order to make that power you have to go into the engine and dump a lot of cash. With the other 3 (2510, 2530, and the GT-SS) they are almost just plug and play.

The GT-RS will need and ECU controller of some sort, just like the other ones, but it will need a much bigger cam for breathing, port work, much bigger injectors, and you will have to run a stroker for the volume. Yes, it will produce a lot more power on top, but the power band will not be as good as the first 3 mentioned. I am all about the power band :naughty:

Personaly I would take the GT-SS out of all the turbos mentioned, but I would not build the engine like the typical tuner. I think a little different.

Why are you wrapped up in the water cooled turbo stuff? They will last just as long as the typical oil cooled turbo.

R33
02-09-2004, 01:46 AM
Yep. That's what I heard too. GT-SS looks like a nice idea! A friend of mine had them installed on his 33GTR. Nice power band, as you said. Spools up really quick...in 5th it starts boosting at about 2300rpm (if I remember correctly) and by just above 4000rpm, it achieves full boost! Sounds really good actually. Am thinking of them if I have to rebuild my engine or for this endurance race (if I manage to buy a 32...which is so darn difficult to find around here!).
Thanx for the explaination.

SkylineUSA
02-09-2004, 02:05 AM
See, in order for the 2.6 to make a lot of power you have to spin that sucker. High RPMs, and you know what Rpms stand for? Ruins People's Motors :evillol: That is why I would not go for the 2540s or the GT-RS.

R33
02-09-2004, 06:31 PM
High RPMs, and you know what Rpms stand for? Ruins People's Motors :evillol:

Really? And I thought thsy meant "revolution per minute" :biggrin:

xToRQuEx
02-09-2004, 08:44 PM
Why are you wrapped up in the water cooled turbo stuff? They will last just as long as the typical oil cooled turbo.

Prefer water cooled because they need no turbo timer. :) small but a reason

R34 GTR
02-11-2004, 06:04 PM
All of the above mentioned turbos are water cooled IF you make use of it! When I had my 2530's in my car they were oil & water cooled. The turbo's water in/outlets were the same fit as the stock turbos so no need to fabricate new water pipes. So why not use it as extra precaution?

On my friend's 2835'ed Supra, he has not use the water cooling option as the stock water pipes weren't the same fit and he has a turbo timer! :grinno:

R33

I am going to use the GT-RS's this time round in my new engine as got used to the power of the 2530s :smile: . They are suppose to be suited to a 2.8L stroker kit. Anyway, they are going to be matched with high lift 272 cams. From my guess after seeing them, it looks like they are a hydbrid of 2835 & 2530 turbos:

2835 compressor wheel
2530 turbine wheel

Here's a pic:http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid103/p0f365fefde9c364a5049cd1dd1cf0b3f/f9a5b90d.jpg

R33
02-11-2004, 06:10 PM
R33

I am going to use the GT-RS's this time round in my new engine as got used to the power of the 2530s :smile: . They are suppose to be suited to a 2.8L stroker kit. Anyway, they are going to be matched with high lift 272 cams. From my guess after seeing them, it looks like they are a hydbrid of 2835 & 2530 turbos:

2835 compressor wheel
2530 turbine wheel

]

That would completely rock the place! :evillol: I have spoken to a mechanic over here about the GT-SS and GT-RS. It appears that the GT-RS is even bigger than the 2450 and is capable of churning out more power than the 2540. But as it is the newest of the GT series, it spools up as fast as, if not faster, than the 2540. I am getting a photocopy of the specs from him soon. Will post them once I get them.

R34 GTR
02-11-2004, 06:20 PM
From the HKS Goods Master:

GT2540 - 350ps
GT2540R - 370ps
GT-RS - 400ps

So it looks like these RS's will make more power and spin up quicker have a smaller turbine side!

SkylineUSA
02-12-2004, 01:08 AM
Vincent,

It sounds like you are well on your way of having a very powerful beast.

I was at Option the other week, and they were building a GT-RS engine in a Silver R33 GTR. All I can say is you might want to invest in a parachute:)

The top end power is going to be awesome, but I am not sure about the lower rpm power? When you get her done, please post what you think of the whole marriage of the parts and its ability to produce a broad power band.

R33
02-12-2004, 01:59 AM
Ok. Here's the deal:

Model Inlet wheel size Wheel trim size AR (comp) AR (ex) Power
GTSS 46.6mm 60.1mm 0.60 0.64 280ps
2510 47.7 60.1 0.60 0.64 300
2530 47.7 60.1 0.60 0.64 320
2540 51.7 76.2 0.60 0.64 350
GTRS 51.2 76.2 0.50 0.64 400

That's it.

R34 GTR
02-12-2004, 07:09 AM
Vincent,

It sounds like you are well on your way of having a very powerful beast.

I was at Option the other week, and they were building a GT-RS engine in a Silver R33 GTR. All I can say is you might want to invest in a parachute:)

The top end power is going to be awesome, but I am not sure about the lower rpm power? When you get her done, please post what you think of the whole marriage of the parts and its ability to produce a broad power band.

Tony

No problem, will report once the car is finished and 'run in'.
Its just a matter of time when its put back together. The only weakness now is the gearbox. The synchros are a bit crunchy specially going into 3rd.

btw - My tuner says because its a JUN engine and they supplied the new block, they have done some sort of treatment to the bores of the cylinder and using JUN pistons, there's really no need for running the engine in!! I'm not too sure about this so I'll take it easy for the first 1K miles or so to be on the safe side!

SkylineUSA
02-12-2004, 11:48 AM
Tony

No problem, will report once the car is finished and 'run in'.
Its just a matter of time when its put back together. The only weakness now is the gearbox. The synchros are a bit crunchy specially going into 3rd.

btw - My tuner says because its a JUN engine and they supplied the new block, they have done some sort of treatment to the bores of the cylinder and using JUN pistons, there's really no need for running the engine in!! I'm not too sure about this so I'll take it easy for the first 1K miles or so to be on the safe side!

Vincent,

Yep, I would do the same thing.

R33,

Good info, thanks.

Derby
03-08-2004, 07:42 PM
Can some one explain to me how the AR relates to power/spooling/efficiency?

Does HKS use the Garrett GT series as basis to tune.
The GT series preforms well enough as far as i've seen

Derby

SkylineUSA
03-09-2004, 03:23 AM
I pulled this off of www.turbomustangs.com this is the best turbo site on the net, point blank. A bunch of very smart guys willing to type, and help.

Go there, you will not be dissapointed.

A/R is mearly a mathematical calculation!! It has more to do with RPM relationships for a given application than anything else.

The larger the A/R the more time it will take a given compressor wheel to create pressure.(in the case of the compressor) Or how long it will take a given volume of exhaust gasses to generate a certain amount of pressure or kenetic energy on the turbine wheel to achieve a certain RPM. (in otherwords spool-up time when putting both together)

The smaller the A/R the faster the compressor wheel can generate pressure in the compressor housing and the faster a given amount of exhaust gasses can generate a certain pressure to drive the turbine wheel to begine spinning the compressor to make possitive manifold pressure.

Now, Yes A/R ratios have an impact on HP potential. Simply by deciding where in an RPM range the engine will generate boost and reach optimal airflow.

For example, you have a given compressor wheel and A/R Compressor housing, lets use and example of a T64E. This turbo has a compressor wheel that roughly measures 2.5" Inducer, 3.28" Exducer and has a E housing with a .60 A/R. We then have a turbine side consisting of a P-trim wheel and a .69 A/R turbine housing. This turbo on a given 302 will generate say 9psi by 3,000RPM. It will them make say 450RWHP at about 4,800-5,200RPM.

We then replace the turbine side housing with a .81 A/R. It would then reach full boost at about 3,200-3,300RPM and make a HP peak in the 5,300-5,500RPm range at about 475HP.

Ok, so now lets take the same turbo, add a Q-trim wheel in the .81A/R housing. It will spool up at about 3,400-3,600RPM and generate about an additional 10-20HP at about the same RPM, maybe a tad higher.

So you can see A/R has an impact on power production but more importantly it mearly determines the RPM range in which a given set of wheels will operate on a particular application.

More important to flow is Compressor and Turbine wheel SIZE. The physical size of the wheel has a huge impact on flow capability. The larger the wheel, the more flow.

For example, we will use a T04 with a E .60A/R compressor housing. Both with a .69A/R turbine and P-trim wheel. One will have a 57trim wheel the other the aforementioned T64E which uses a T66 wheel. What would be the difference in these turbos? How would they perform comparitively on a 302?

I think pretty much everyone will agree the 57trim will have a tad better esponse (less inertia in the smaller wheel) and offer much less flow potential.

My point is, before buying a turbo of A/R this, A/R that, have who ever it is that is selling it measure the wheels. That is just about the most critical aspects of turbo sizing.

SkylineUSA
03-09-2004, 03:31 AM
Derby,
I know you know this, but for some of the other guys.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=85581

SkylineUSA
03-09-2004, 03:43 AM
So basically it has to do with volume, velocity, and wheels size. Bigger the A, less volume/velocity more time it takes to spool. Changes the power band. It all depends on the engine, and where you want the power?

Its a marriage of a bunch of equations, to get it right!

Derby
03-09-2004, 07:04 PM
my appreciation is huge.

there are so many things in engine technology that keep me thinking.

Like the backpressure. Everyone knows something but put it all together and you know nothing more then when you started.

But skyline usa...big respect. how is your stang doing?

Derby

BTW http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/ rules big time.

*why didn't i find that sooner... :mad:

R33
03-09-2004, 10:02 PM
Sky, excellent info. Actually it all make sense. In short, it's about rpm. If I want peak power at low rpm, go for smaller AR. And vice versa. Of course there are other consideartions, like cam degree n lift etc. But the single most important factor is, IMHO, rpm. I now hv a new equation, which is:

big ASS turbo + short ratio 6 speed seq = really good lap time! :)

SkylineUSA
03-10-2004, 01:08 AM
Derby,

You can spend days there, reading up on some very good info. I am getting ready to sale the Stang. I need money for my project car. Right now I am sorting out the wires. Splicing the two harness together. It takes a while, but it should a one of kind when I get done.

R33,

Yes, RPMs play a huge factor, but like you said there are other considerations.

Are you still running 2540s?

R33
03-10-2004, 03:25 AM
Sky, I am still running the 2540s. But I suspect they are damaged in some ways now as I could hear them whistling. On the dyno, the peak power keeps on spiking up and down as the boost spikes as well. And there's always a sec or two before they spool at full steam at some rpms (some hesitation). I have checked the boost controller/actuator etc and they are okay. I think it's the shaft hitting the housing. But the power is still there when it comes.
Anyway, I have purchased a set of 2530s. I will start rebuilding the whole thing sometime this year, probably after the endurance race in August. I want better response around the corners/turns and about the same top end this time. That's why I hv opted for 2530s after some research and your advice as well. I will prolly ditch the 264in 272ex cams as well. I will prolly use a set of low lift 264s this time around. We will see how it goes.

SkylineUSA
03-10-2004, 03:31 AM
With my limited knowledge on the subject, it sounds like you are going in the right direction. That would be the way I would go.

PM me, if there are any parts that you are going to sell;)

Derby
03-10-2004, 06:28 AM
big ASS turbo + short ratio 6 speed seq = really good lap time! :)


Sorry r33 but think about the peak torque. it will be at high rpms. in combo with the close ratio it will generate a lot of wheel spin. and that isn't always the fastest...and shifting is breaking the power distribution so no accelaration for some time. (i know it is short but it will get longer if you shift more) on the other hand you get keep it in a thight power band.

try to make the ratios ina way that when you shift on top power you will get down at top torque. so from peak to torque to peak power and again top torque. that is the fastest accelaration.

Derby

R33
03-10-2004, 09:39 PM
Derby, that's excellent advice! Never thought about that! :p Looking at my dyno chart now, my peak torque is at about 6400rpm while my peak power is at around 7400rpm. The car is self limited at 8500rpm. I suppose I could shift at 8000rpm in every gear. With shifting rpm diffrence at around 2000rpm, I will end up at 6000rpm upon upshifting. Just about nice....

SkylineUSA
03-11-2004, 12:59 AM
R33,

So, for every shift you have 2000rpm difference? I know you know more about this stuff than I do, but it seems to me, that 8000 would be a litttle out of your power band?

Can you post your dyno sheet?

From looking at your car specs, I would have figured your power band would have been a little higher, shows you what I know :loser:

R33
03-11-2004, 02:42 AM
Sky, I don't hv a scaner. But here it goes:

4000rpm: 130hp power/23kg-m torque
4500rpm: 190/31
5000rpm: 255/37
5500rpm: 340/41
6000rpm: 410/49
6600rpm: 460/51 (peak torque)
7400rpm: 480 (peak power)/46.5

All figures are on all four wheels using Dynojet at 1.3 bar of boost utilising F Con S. It doesn't look that pretty but is pretty responsive from 4000rpm. It's lovely around the long sweeping corners (turn 3/5/6/7/8/12/13 and of course on the back n front straight at the F1 circuit. (Go here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/circuit_guide/3517461.stm for a turn to turn guide by Jarno Truli around the circuit.)
But along the tighter corners, the car does bog down a bit especially at the very tight turn 9 (almost 180 degree uphill!).
By the end of the year, thge 2530s will be in place, hopefully!

Derby
03-11-2004, 12:47 PM
So that dyno chart looks pretty awesome.

responsive from 4000 is good. for a tuned engine it is.

shifting at 8000 isn't the best strategy. use your boost, so shift a little earlier. torque proppels the cars forward. and the torque is pretty high at low revs (thanks to the boost) and climbs very hard up to 6000 after that it drops very hard a rpm range you don't want to be to long.

In general it is usual to shift late (after peak power) with NA engines and at peak power with charged engines.

I'm looking forward to the charts with the 2530's

Derby

R33
03-11-2004, 09:06 PM
Thanks Derby 4 the comment. On the track, I normally stay below 8200rpm, even on the straights. Actually, I am not a "greedy" person! :p I don't hv much complain about the power range and delivery of my car. Except there are corners which I really struggle (eg turn 9 uphill, which immediately swerve to another right turn! - the Evos always gimme a wave around here! :mad: )
The 2530s will prolly be set up by the end of the year. I will prolly use a different set of cams to improve response. Will keep u all posted.

SkylineUSA
03-12-2004, 01:50 AM
R33,

What tire size do you use?

Have you talked to anyone about the CAMs selection? If so, what was the outcome?

Cam selection should be based on the heads ability to move air. % wise, from what the intake side can move, compared to what the exhaust side can move. My only problem is I have never seen the actual flow rate of the RB26 heads.

R33
03-14-2004, 07:11 PM
Tyres are 275/35/18.
I hv spoken to 2 mechanics about the cams. One says to mix them like my current combo ie 264/272. The larger exhaust cam keeps out the gasses better and should improve response.
Another mech suggests a pair of 264s but with only 8.4 (or is it 8.5?) degrees of lift to ensure good response. I know a guy who uses that cam on his R33 with TO4R...good response...even better than my current 2540s!
Still undecided though. As for the flow rate, well, as I had said b4, I know almost nuts about engines! And it goes without saying that I am unable to help u in that regard! :p

SkylineUSA
03-15-2004, 02:36 PM
The smaller cam will drop your shift point, not by much, but it should drop.

To tell you the truth, you might just want to change out the exhaust cam. I know the is a huge science when it comes to cams, which most of the GTR world is in the dark, but you will not see any major difference in a 9.1 lift, and a 8.5 lift when it comes to throttle response.

I have seen RB26s set up in all ways. The same cams, bigger on the intake, bigger on the exhaust. These are cars set-up by TUNERS. Which is correct, I do not know?

I always revert back to turbo Mustang thinking. Funning thing there is, they do the same thing.

I do know that a wide lobe sep is good, around 114* or higher. That is always the case.

In N/A cars you always run a bigger exhaust lobe, but in turbos the thinking is different. That is why I would be inclined to keep your intake cam, and go with a smaller exhaust. Is it written in stone some where that this is right, no. For the simple fact that no one really talks about it. With my limited knowledge, that how I would set it up.

Actually, if I were setting up your car. I would do a bunch of things that go against the grain of thinking, but I am a novice. So, take what I say with a grain of salt:)

If you really want to know what I think, PM me.

That one track you mentioned, is that the track you are mainly racing at?

R33
03-15-2004, 08:51 PM
Sky, thanks for the advice. You are right, it's like some kind of black magic. Some says small intgake bigger exhaust and some say otherwise. Say go with lower lift and some don't! Just yesterday, I met a mechanic who told me to maintain my current cam set up! However, I value all advices, although I don't really understand what they mean sometimes! :p I will of course PM you when I am about to finalise the rebuilding later in the year. Thanks for the offer.

That track is the Sepang F1 track, about 40 minute slow drive away from the capital. You can see it on TV this weekend as the F1 race will be held there. It's a highly technical track with 2 straights but with wide track and so it gives a lot of opportunity to overtake even around the some of the long sweeping corners. That makes the track very challenging. And yes, that is where I race.

SkylineUSA
03-18-2004, 01:35 AM
That link you posted is awesome.

With so many different opinions on cam set up, I wonder if anyone has really tested all the options. In the US, we have mag articles left and right, of them doing swap out, on the same car, same dyno, same engine, so you can compare each to a given engine set-up. I have never seen or heard of anyone being able to that with the RB26. It probably has been done by many people, but they keep the figures to them selves.

Personnaly, I would look to see how the big guys are doing it, top secret, NISMO, and copy what their set-ups are. They would be the guys that have done the test, but just do not publish the results. At least that is my thinking.

Derby
03-18-2004, 06:32 PM
Speaking is silver, saying nothing at all is gold.

Of course they don't tell the cam setup. It is to magical to give that info. It is like putting the ECU tables on the net for download. They have to be better at something then the normal 'tuner'

Gt-power suite is a computer simulation program for intake and exhaust systems.
I have taken a look in the graphs of a friend of mine who is playing with cams for his turbo engine. He was looking for the best overlap. and after doing some simulation runs. (12 degrees 30 and 42) he came to the conclusion that it doesn't make a big difference. the only thing that differ was the VE at high revs. After the top-VE.

He did not play with different opening and closing times. But with the good programs the home-tuner can have the same data as a top secret.

Is there nobody who ever ordered a cam and did some measuring...?

Derby

flylwsi
03-18-2004, 06:55 PM
in regards to having a water cooled turbo so you don't have to use a turbo timer, where did that come from?

the oil is still in there for lubrication, and if you just turn the turbo off, without the timer, you're still going to coke the oil in the turbo, and kill it, regardless of whether it's water cooled.

so if that's your only reason, you need to rearrange your priorities.

SkylineUSA
03-20-2004, 06:29 AM
Speaking is silver, saying nothing at all is gold.

Of course they don't tell the cam setup. It is to magical to give that info. It is like putting the ECU tables on the net for download. They have to be better at something then the normal 'tuner'

Gt-power suite is a computer simulation program for intake and exhaust systems.
I have taken a look in the graphs of a friend of mine who is playing with cams for his turbo engine. He was looking for the best overlap. and after doing some simulation runs. (12 degrees 30 and 42) he came to the conclusion that it doesn't make a big difference. the only thing that differ was the VE at high revs. After the top-VE.

He did not play with different opening and closing times. But with the good programs the home-tuner can have the same data as a top secret.

Is there nobody who ever ordered a cam and did some measuring...?

Derby

Its not the that the lobes have not been checked, its the fact that to get a true comparioson, you need to be able to swap 5 or 6 cams in one day, on the same car, on the same dyno.

You can swap a 302 cam in about 2 hours, but I would imagine it would take a little longer to do a RB26 cam.

Derby
03-20-2004, 06:45 PM
oh in that way...sorry misunderstood...

yeah that is pretty hard to do...for sure...

Maybe this is a noob reaction but it is an overhead cam right? chain driven? or belt? then 2 hours should do it right...but you probably have a better view at things...


Derby

dannyvd
04-05-2004, 01:10 AM
My mate has a r33 gts-t with a 3037 on it running about 18-20psi. or there abouts. Insane turbos i reckon.. it would be my choice

550hp33vspec
04-19-2004, 04:41 AM
I originally put this info on who here actually owns a skyline in relation to a ? from skylineUSA, but I think it belongs here for some very basic info.

The GT Le mans turbos have steel exhaust wheels and therefore will never spool up as quickly as ceramic (this I'm sure u know). But the turbos themselves are not that much larger than stock (but they are larger, so I had trouble with my actuators going past .8kg of boost, thus the electronic boost controler) so they still spool up fairly quickly and with extensions you can take about 500rpm off of that. They are also very durable (they're made for 24 hour races in a much better GTR than I will ever own) and efficient beacuse of the 360 degree thrust bearing (not sure, but I think that normal turbos have a 270 degree). Anyone that is planning on getting some, please be sure to check the serial numbers for authinticity; I've heard of people dumping lots of money into fake ones.

And I'll try to get some photos of my car on here when I get off my ass and load them.

SkylineUSA
04-19-2004, 12:27 PM
550hp33vspec,

I hope you get off your butt, I would really like to see you ride:)

Daidae
05-23-2004, 12:53 PM
I know this is a month old, but I have a question that falls right on this turbo topic.

Out these 3 turbos which one will have the best response (little or no lag), and yield 500-600ish HP Rating?
The Nismo N1 Specs OR HKS GT2530 OR GT28RS "Disco Potato" ?

Or is there something better than all three?

SkylineUSA
05-23-2004, 01:01 PM
That is an easy one, the GT-SS :iceslolan

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