I know this has been posted a million times, but what would be the best to turbo? Isn't the GS-R at 8 psi the same as an LS at 12 psi? And ins't vtec better.

I know im getting an Integra with a costom turbo kit, hondata, intercooler, and all the extras, but I still haven't made up my mind on the LS or the GS-R. Please help me!

And would a GS-R with a well tunned hondata and turbo setup at 8psi, get 250whp? Without upgraded internals? and would this be mildly safe?

The LS, no question. Already at a lower compression ratio. That is why you might see higher gains from less PSI on the GS-R. However, play it safe and go with lower compression. At higher compression there is less room for error and the engine will be VERY high strung. I have heard that Vtec and Turbos don't play well together, but I am not sure, just what I've heard.

You should be able to run 8 PSI intercooled on the stock LS engine no problem. However, I don't know if you will be making 250HP to the wheels, and that is very unlikely. You can only expect about 10 HP max per PSI on a stock Integra.

damm it polygon u beat me to the punch again....
i second what you just said i was gona type the same idea..
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So I could run 8psi daily and boost to about 10psi for racing? that would bring me to about 240 at the crank and 215-220 at the wheels on an LS?

And with a upgraded bottom end I could easily see 250whp right?

There is just something about the vtec that turns me on though.

250whp is hard you really need to tune the hell out of your car to see that hp, i will getimate about 210 if you lucky. more likely 190whp, if you have proper fuel managment you can see 250hp.
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for that I would rather get a GS-R and run 4-6psi and get more hp out of that, and upgrade the internals down the road. Wouldn't that be as safe as an LS with 8psi?

you would get less hp out of a gsr with 4-6 psi then a ls with 8psi, the ls with 8psi will make more hp and same psi, l.s lower compression and 2.0l gsr hi compression and 1.8l, the ls is a better motor to turbo
1

The LS, no question. Already at a lower compression ratio. That is why you might see higher gains from less PSI on the GS-R. However, play it safe and go with lower compression.

The compression difference between the LS and the GSR is 8 tenths of a point (9.2:1 vs. 10:1), 10:1 isn't a ton of compression. If he's running hondata, and has it tuned well, there is no reason that his motor can't run very well with 10:1 compression. In fact, JE makes 9.8:1 pistons designed for turbo cars, the added compression will make the motor more responsive off boost and it will spool quicker.

At higher compression there is less room for error and the engine will be VERY high strung. I have heard that Vtec and Turbos don't play well together, but I am not sure, just what I've heard.

I agree that with high compression there is less room for error, but he has plans for a good EMS (hondata) and provided he takes it to a good tuner, he will have no problems. I know a guy who lives in Arkansas, has a 10:1 compression 84.5MM GSR, runs 14 pounds of boost on pump gas all day long, and made 414 WHP like that. It's all in the tune! For the vtec head and turbos bit, that's probably some misinformation you heard on the internet. Yes, having lots of duration for a turbo motor is bad, lots of overlap is bad. But the stock B16, GSR, CTR, or ITR cams are simply not big enough to cause such great overlap that you get a loss of power. Everybody on here says to stay away from vtec like it's the devil, saying overlap is bad. But, think about it, if overlap was bad, how come people with Supras, DSM's, and SR20DET's are running HKS cams with 272 degrees of duration, and making big power with em? Those cams are a lot bigger than stock honda vtec cams, and HKS sells them only for turbo motors. The vtec head simply flows a LOT better than the non vtec head, and you will make a lot more power with it. I don't even know how the "vtec doesn't work with turbo" bit started in the first place.

You should be able to run 8 PSI intercooled on the stock LS engine no problem. However, I don't know if you will be making 250HP to the wheels, and that is very unlikely. You can only expect about 10 HP max per PSI on a stock Integra.

Hell, there are people running 14 pounds of boost on a stock LS motor, but you would see a lot more power out of a GSR. Depending on weather or not he has to pass emissions, he could make a ton of power. Hell, i've seen a GSR-swapped hatch with a drag gen 3 kit (only change to the kit was upgraded to a tial 38MM gate, doesn't have much to do with power production anyways) and hondata make 325 WHP @ 12 psi, stock block, on pump gas. I think you know what my choice is!

I agree with you, boosted331. But everyone on this forum says go LS. I think I will get a GS-R. Thanks for your input.

If you already have an LS though, I wouldn't bother swapping motors, I'd just do the LS/vtec conversion. They make dowel pins for the conversion now so you don't have to worry about drilling anything, and it will make a lot more power than just an LS motor.

The compression difference between the LS and the GSR is 8 tenths of a point (9.2:1 vs. 10:1), 10:1 isn't a ton of compression. If he's running hondata, and has it tuned well, there is no reason that his motor can't run very well with 10:1 compression. In fact, JE makes 9.8:1 pistons designed for turbo cars, the added compression will make the motor more responsive off boost and it will spool quicker.

That is true; the higher compression will make the engine more responsive in vac. However; most turbo-charged cars from the factory run between 7.8:1 and 9:1 compression. There is a reason for that. I don't care how good your fuel management system is and I don't care how well tuned your car is at a 10:1 compression ratio you're playing with fire if you're running on pump gas. Even if you are running 93 octane gas stations sometimes get some bad fuel. At a 10:1 compression ratio if you get some bad gas the detonation will be bad enough to crack a piston, snap a rod, or snap a valve. With good tuning and fuel management I would say you're pretty safe if you're running strictly on 100 octane fuel and up, and I am not talking 93 octane with some octane booster.

I agree that with high compression there is less room for error, but he has plans for a good EMS (hondata) and provided he takes it to a good tuner, he will have no problems. I know a guy who lives in Arkansas, has a 10:1 compression 84.5MM GSR, runs 14 pounds of boost on pump gas all day long, and made 414 WHP like that. It's all in the tune! For the vtec head and turbos bit, that's probably some misinformation you heard on the internet. Yes, having lots of duration for a turbo motor is bad, lots of overlap is bad. But the stock B16, GSR, CTR, or ITR cams are simply not big enough to cause such great overlap that you get a loss of power. Everybody on here says to stay away from vtec like it's the devil, saying overlap is bad. But, think about it, if overlap was bad, how come people with Supras, DSM's, and SR20DET's are running HKS cams with 272 degrees of duration, and making big power with em? Those cams are a lot bigger than stock honda vtec cams, and HKS sells them only for turbo motors. The vtec head simply flows a LOT better than the non vtec head, and you will make a lot more power with it. I don't even know how the "vtec doesn't work with turbo" bit started in the first place.

Either you're friend is very lucky or you're bullshitting me. All the people I know running 10:1 compression on a turbo-charged engine are running it as a race only setup. Also, at 14PSI you're buddy had to have swapped his internals or his is begging to put a big hole in the side of his engine. As for the Vtec comment, I am no Vtec expert; I simply post in here because I do know about forced induction. That is why I said that it was only what I'd heard. So if you have experience otherwise I would trust you as you probably know a lot more about Vtec than I do.

Hell, there are people running 14 pounds of boost on a stock LS motor, but you would see a lot more power out of a GSR. Depending on weather or not he has to pass emissions, he could make a ton of power. Hell, i've seen a GSR-swapped hatch with a drag gen 3 kit (only change to the kit was upgraded to a tial 38MM gate, doesn't have much to do with power production anyways) and hondata make 325 WHP @ 12 psi, stock block, on pump gas. I think you know what my choice is!

Yeah, that is why I said that he could do 8PSI intercooled no problem. However; at 14PSI I am sure some of them are smart enough to be changing their internals. I would still go with the LS if you want this car to be streetable. Running 10:1 compression is risky and if something goes wrong you'll be out an engine.

gsr w/ turbo at 8 psi
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/80346turbogsr20.jpg

ls w/ turbo at 10 psi
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/80346usls4.jpg

dyno's don't lie. ls, enough said.

their both running on different psi, i'm sure b18c1 could run on 10psi without detonation if the person knew what he was doing. Therefore i say B18c1 if your going to tune properly, and LS if you want to be safe. Plus the turbo kits you shown are both different, they probably have two different turbo's on them.

http://www.importreview.com/dyno/turbo/gsr.jpg
241HP and 170TRQ on 7psi.. another 1psi and that'll probably be around 248hp and 178trq

their both running on different psi, i'm sure b18c1 could run on 10psi without detonation if the person knew what he was doing. Therefore i say B18c1 if your going to tune properly, and LS if you want to be safe. Plus the turbo kits you shown are both different, they probably have two different turbo's on them.

ok, say the guy does know whats he's doing, which i doubt and does make it run 10 psi on a stock block, he could've still done the same for the ls, so instead of 12, he might even reach 14 psi.

since the ls block can run to 12 psi it would still beat the gsr on 10 psi due to the amount of torque being produced. just look at the dynos, who has the better power band? hp is good, but without torque to help, its not good enough. hmmm, what psi does the gsr have to be to even reach 200 lbs of tq? .

another thing, you said they have different turbos, that is correct, but if u don't know the gsr is the one with the better kit. the ls has the drag, which produces an average power gain from a turbo, nothing spectacular. put a rev hard on the ls and it would be no comparison. again like i said earlier, the ls.

as previuosly stated high compression and boost are a very dangerous combination. Even if you tune it perfectly. And often to tune a car with high compression and boost you'll have to pull some serious timing and run quite rich which will cost you a lot of power.

The lack of torque (gsr dyno) in the tran_nsx's post is probably due to retarded timing.

Plus you need quite a bit of an error margin to account for octane variations in pump gas.

Bottom line: i think the dyno sheets tran_nsx posted tell a clear story the ls is better for turbocharging (remember you accelerate along your torque curve)


So my advice is: go with the ls unless you plan to lower the compression in the gsr.

Okay, first off, to Teggy Pwnage. It sounded fromt he first post you wanted a GSR more, so why ask? You clearly did not really want the LS, it seemed more of an "I am hoping" question.

Secondly, anyone that knows me on here KNOWS I agree with tran_nsx and Neutrino. The LS's lower compression ratio does indeed allow for a larger manrgin of error than the GSR's, especially on pump gas, where you never the variations of "92 ocatne" gas can vary dramitically. Not all gas is created eqaul. One crappy tank of gas, that won't be a good thing with a Higher C/R...remember, less margin of error. JE may make a 9.8:1 c/r piston for "turbo" but remember, ALMOST ALL pistions for turbo apps are in the 9.2:1 or lower range. Just because it's made for a turbo app doesn't make it the best choice around for a turbo app.

The LS's lower C/R, which is better for turbo apps, and the quench area of the head should help a little more with the detonation aspect as well. I do know people who have boosted a GSR, and done it fine. However, even stock, the LS outdoes the GSR in torque. Granted, there is a 1 ft/lbs differnece towards the GSR, but it's a full 1100 rpms higher. The LS has a lbetter torque curve, stock and boosted. The LS hits peak torque stock @127ft-lbs@5200rpm, versus the GSR's 128ft-lbs@6300rpm. That does make a difference. Torque is what is going to pull you up to speed off the line, and low torque makes a big difference. On the street espeically, you'll miss the added low torque the boosted LS will bring.

Also, as Boosted331 stated, the vtec is not recommended for boosting is due to the overlap. Vtec cams have a higher overlap. There is a raging debate on here about how true it is about vtec and turbos. At high rpms it can have an effect to a certain extent. It is possible it could effect the spooling of the turbo due to airflow, resulting in a possible loss of power. Most turbo cams for HONDA'S (for vtec and non-vtec) lower the duration lower, even down past the LS, so take that into consideration when considering all the things you are hearing in here regarding the vtec higher duration on the vtec cam lobe and turbos. Remember, the Supra motor can flow a lot more air than a honda engine anyway, plus it comes tuned for boost, unlike honda's which are not. This makes comparing the duration of the cams between supra's and hondas, to a certian extent, not relevent. Surpa engine tuning differs from Honda engine tuning. Still, either way, a properly tuned LS block can handle 12psi. Normally, a GSR wouldn't want to go above 8psi.

Proper tuning can make a difference to a certain extend, but unless you are VERY WELL versed in this, I don't recommend going down that route (using tuning to eek more out than the stock intenrals/block should hold) unless you know what you are doing. Even then, a crappy tank of gas that close to the edge could cost you a motor.

I'd get an LS, and most others on here would too. If you later decide you want vtec, you can LS vtec the head. A B16A head can take type-r parts, a GSR head can not. Plus, the B16A head has a little more displacment. The LS is better for turbo apps. If you really crave vtec when all is said and done, then slap on a vtec head. As I said, the B16A head can use type-r parts, the GSR can't. Also, the B16A head flows better by 5.25%, though I'll tell you right now that boosted331 will tell you the GSR outflows the B16A. Either way, that is your call on who to listen to. But the fact remains, B16A heads have slightly more displacement and can use type-r parts, a GSR head can not.

eckoman i agree with your statements but please separate that into paragraphs. It is very hard to read


:)


EDIT: Thanks

No, I have not made up my mind on the LS or the GS-R yet.

Its just that with already having 40 more hp and vtec, I thought that the GS-R was better. I dont plan on turboing right away, so I wanted a faster car out of the box. But then again, with the money I save on the LS I could get a turbo setup faster.

Anyway, I have until summer to decide, so thanks for all the input. I will probably go with the LS, even though the GS-R is better. and if I buy a GS-R and get lower compression pistons, It would cost more and defeat the purpose of getting the GS-R for the extra hp.

Or I would get a rear wheel drive car (because its more fun). But there arn't many import rwd cars to choose from in my price range exept a nissan (240sx ect)

Thanks for the replies!

eckoman i agree with your statements but please separate that into paragraphs. It is very hard to read


:)

Firs off, I separated it for you, Nuetrino. I don't really like to leave spaces in between paragraphs, since it interupts the structural flow of the writing (from a journalistic standpoint). However, it was long and hard to read, and since AF won't let you indent at a new paragraph (it doesn't show), I did that anyway for you.



Now, Teggy Pwnage, a GSR has 170HP @ the flywheel, and the LS 142 @ the flywheel. That's a difference of 28HP, not 40 hp, lol. The @ the wheels difference is the same too, about 25-28hp. Remember, HP is a product of torque x rpm/5252. As you can see, RPM plays a big part in the overall hp.

The GSR's higher rev and redline are also part of the added HP, besides just vtec. That's partially how Honda can extract such high hp per liter numbers out of the motors. The high rpm cam lobe, the vtec (variable valve timing electronically controled lift) lob, helps the motor get an added kick out out of the higher rpm. They combined this with a high rpm redline. Since HP is a product of torque and the rpm, a low torque motor can have a high HP output with out an extremely high torque output, if it revs high.

You can see how torque, hp, and rpm are related. I would give up a little redline and hp if I got a broader torque curve. This is partially how honda got the same power out of the bigger 2.2 liter motor in the new S2K, despite a broader torque curve. They increased the displacement, and therefor torque. This allowed a little lower redline, without lowering the overall HP (since the torque is greater).

I know how the hp to torque works, but I guess I never looked at that very long. I ment to say 30 but I must have been thinking 140 and 40 IDK :screwy:

I really didn't bother reading any of the posts except for eckoman's book there. And I'm gonna have to go with the GSR. The LS is a great motor to boost because of it's nice torque curve, and lower compression. But I think that the GSR is just a better base to build on. It has a better flowing head and IM than the LS and oil squirters on the block. Not only that, the GSR will produce more power at the same PSI than an LS will. The LS will make more torque, but how much torque do you really need to get these little Honda/Acura's moving.
The LS/VTEC is a good option, but I always hear about reliablitiy issues and most of these engines not seeing past 30k miles. BTW: B18C block + B16A head = poor man's Type R.
And about the boosting a VTEC motor issue. I had my doubts about this also and had my heart set on a LS motor to boost before I got the deal of a century on the Sentra. Anyways, I did some major research, asked around a lot on the interenet and some local shops. The response I basically got was non-VTEC motors only have 2 bands that need to be tuned (not sure if this is the right terminology), whereas the VTEC motors have 4, thus making tuning a bit of a PITA. However, buying a reliable EMS and having someone who is qualified to tune that specific unit, you won't have any troubles with running or tuning a VTEC engine for boost. I've been recommended to get a Hondata over anything else over and over and to have a Hondata certified technician tune it, although it clearly states that only Hondata trained technicians should tune it on their website anyhow.

I really didn't bother reading any of the posts except for eckoman's book there. And I'm gonna have to go with the GSR. The LS is a great motor to boost because of it's nice torque curve, and lower compression. But I think that the GSR is just a better base to build on. It has a better flowing head and IM than the LS and oil squirters on the block. Not only that, the GSR will produce more power at the same PSI than an LS will. The LS will make more torque, but how much torque do you really need to get these little Honda/Acura's moving.
The LS/VTEC is a good option, but I always hear about reliablitiy issues and most of these engines not seeing past 30k miles. BTW: B18C block + B16A head = poor man's Type R.
And about the boosting a VTEC motor issue. I had my doubts about this also and had my heart set on a LS motor to boost before I got the deal of a century on the Sentra. Anyways, I did some major research, asked around a lot on the interenet and some local shops. The response I basically got was non-VTEC motors only have 2 bands that need to be tuned (not sure if this is the right terminology), whereas the VTEC motors have 4, thus making tuning a bit of a PITA. However, buying a reliable EMS and having someone who is qualified to tune that specific unit, you won't have any troubles with running or tuning a VTEC engine for boost. I've been recommended to get a Hondata over anything else over and over and to have a Hondata certified technician tune it, although it clearly states that only Hondata trained technicians should tune it on their website anyhow.

i bet your one of the guys that vote for the b18c1 for the best forced induction motor for a honda and have no reason why either. next time how bout u read the posts and try to comprehend what most of us are explaining before voting . hell i even posted dyno's as evidence, and i bet u didn't even look at that either huh.

every one else who did read the posts, i want to thank you, and you should also thank yourself. you're now a more knowledgeable person in the field of honda forced induction.

Firs off, I separated it for you, Nuetrino. I don't really like to leave spaces in between paragraphs, since it interupts the structural flow of the writing (from a journalistic standpoint). However, it was long and hard to read, and since AF won't let you indent at a new paragraph (it doesn't show), I did that anyway for you.



As i said thanks for separating.


BTW I asked you to create some paragraphs because with some spaces its way easier on the eyes to read long posts like yours on a computer screen . It was not a critique in any way and it was not meant to be offensive.

Seriously how much TRQ do you need to move a honda. Too much TRQ can be a bad thing especially for FWD cars. I still say go for the gsr with 8psi your in the 250hp range, while 10psi on a LS is around 240. If you can get 10psi out of a stock b16 block safely and net 250whp, i see no reason why you can't do the same with the GSR motor and net 265-275whp

As i said thanks for separating.


BTW I asked you to create some paragraphs because with some spaces its way easier on the eyes to read long posts like yours on a computer screen . It was not a critique in any way and it was not meant to be offensive.

Oh, it okay, lol...I understand...I just wish I could create real paragraphs...from a journalistic standpoint, it would flow better then, lol. I agree though, it is easier to read. I just get to typing and well, you know, lol.

As for the engine thing...this thread proves...ask the question which motor is "better" for FI...and you'll get some facts. Several of us have presented facts. However, then people decide what they want, sometimes they listen to the facts, sometimes they don't really care, etc. The point is, what "is best" is a matter of opinion, so the smartest thing to do is to get the facts, and then decide for yourself what's best for you. No one can tell you what's truely best for you, you know? That's my PC opinion, lol.

Seriously how much TRQ do you need to move a honda. Too much TRQ can be a bad thing especially for FWD cars. I still say go for the gsr with 8psi your in the 250hp range, while 10psi on a LS is around 240. If you can get 10psi out of a stock b16 block safely and net 250whp, i see no reason why you can't do the same with the GSR motor and net 265-275whp

oh man, im not even going to respond to your post :rolleyes:

a guy runing 7 psi on stock GSR internal and get 354hp out of crank....i mean stock... for daily drive and that engine still runs strong based on that setting after 2 yrs...

Seriously how much TRQ do you need to move a honda. Too much TRQ can be a bad thing especially for FWD cars. I still say go for the gsr with 8psi your in the 250hp range, while 10psi on a LS is around 240. If you can get 10psi out of a stock b16 block safely and net 250whp, i see no reason why you can't do the same with the GSR motor and net 265-275whp

That is just laughable.

a guy runing 7 psi on stock GSR internal and get 354hp out of crank....i mean stock... for daily drive and that engine still runs strong based on that setting after 2 yrs...

And this is just plain :bs:

have a talk w/ maxspeed, his b16 in his civic at 10psi gives him 255whp. He says his been running 8-9psi for 2yrs now. Oh, and i don't give a d... if you don' reply to my post.

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/1/web/445000-445999/445776_19_full.jpg
A dyno of maxspeedhonda's B16 stock, turboed at 10psi

have a talk w/ maxspeed, his b16 in his civic at 10psi gives him 250whp. He says his been running 8-9psi for 2yrs now. Oh, and i don't give a d... if you don' reply to my post. Laughable, the only person who laughing is maxspeed, who's my living proof

how about u ask him what is left on the original greddy kit? the only reason he got it so high is because he replaced about everything besides the turbo itself, this is now a custom kit. lets see him run 10 psi on his original parts that came with the greddy turbo. believe me, im not stupid.

as far as not responding to your earlier post, i was more refering to your claim of tq being not beneficial. hmm if tq is not beneficial, then why are import guys using ls/vtec? dude go back and hit your books, don't try to tell me tq is not important. this is the main reason why domestics have the advantage on the strip. :disappoin

i never said trq wasn't important,i just meantioned that to much trq could be a bad thing. Oh, and another thing i've already asked him that before. We weren't talking about a specific kit, but whether 10psi is feesable on a gsr block which would give you more power over a ls.

i never said trq wasn't important,i just meantioned that to much trq could be a bad thing. Oh, and another thing i've already asked him that before. We weren't talking about a specific kit, but whether 10psi is feesable on a gsr block which would give you more power over a ls.

im going to make it short and simple, since i don't want to be here all day. tq is just like hp, u can never ever get enough of it, plain and simple.

by u retrieving data thats been customized this is irrelevant because there are to many lacking variables. if the ls was also customized just like the one shown of course the power rating would drastically increase. the best way to look at it is by using a stock kit with a stock motor, the data u shown is inconclusive unless of course u show me a dyno of an ls with the same mods as maxspeedhonda making less hp and tq.

i bet your one of the guys that vote for the b18c1 for the best forced induction motor for a honda and have no reason why either. next time how bout u read the posts and try to comprehend what most of us are explaining before voting . hell i even posted dyno's as evidence, and i bet u didn't even look at that either huh.

every one else who did read the posts, i want to thank you, and you should also thank yourself. you're now a more knowledgeable person in the field of honda forced induction.

I did give you reasons, re-read my post. Also, I did look at your dynographs and it shows the GSR making more power at lower psi. Like I said, it doesn't take a shit load of torque to get these cars moving. If we were talking about a heavier car, then I would also be concerned with torque, but Integras aren't heavy cars. I'm not saying a lot of torque is a bad thing, but it isn't something that is necessary to make these cars fast. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and have an open mind about things.

To your credit, GScivic7, I respect your opinion, thougt I disagree. I still feel the LS is better choice. However, I respect your opinion becuase even though you admitted the facts I gave were true, you gave us reason why you would still go for a GSR. As I said, even when the facts are on the table, people will take the facts, study them, and come to their own conculsion about what is best for them. I mean, if you are only looking for a low boost solution for your GSR motor, say 8psi, you are not running the GSR high enough to blow it anyway. It will give you decent power, and cost less than buying an LS and boosting that. For the person there in that example, boosting the GSR @ a low boost setting is a perfectly reasonable choice, and most cost effective than swapping it out and boosting a new one would be. I mean, the cost for the little extra HP you'd gain isn't really worth the 3 grand, that GSR could be built to easily handle the extra 4psi of boost for that price. Like I said earlier, the facts remain out there as to what motor can handle what,a nd the benifts and drawbacks of each. What is "best" for each person really depends on each individuals own situation.

I did give you reasons, re-read my post. Also, I did look at your dynographs and it shows the GSR making more power at lower psi. Like I said, it doesn't take a shit load of torque to get these cars moving. If we were talking about a heavier car, then I would also be concerned with torque, but Integras aren't heavy cars. I'm not saying a lot of torque is a bad thing, but it isn't something that is necessary to make these cars fast. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and have an open mind about things.

ok, now i feel like im repeating myself. lets start over and hopefully u understand this time. look at the dynos i've given again, as u can see the gsr is at 8 psi correct? and the ls is at 10 correct? what u don't understand is that the gsr safest boost is @ 8 psi, so in other words u don't want to go higher than this unless u have implemented mods or internal work to achieve higher boost. the ls on the other hand can safely go up to 12 psi, but as you can see it's only at 10 and it's basically even with hp and kills the gsr in tq. my point, if the ls was at 12 psi, the gsr wouldn't stand a chance. now yes because of its compression ratio, the gsr makes more hp at a lower psi, but because of it's c/r it can't boost as high.

about the tq comment, yes due to its lighter weight it doesn't need as much tq (that also goes for hp) to compete against heavier cars, but nonetheless u still need it. when comparing two cars with the same weight, if they both have the same amout of hp, but one has quite a bit more tq, than the faster car would of course be the one with higher amount of tq since this is the most important part of the launch. also don't forget, hp is only a product of tq.

now if u want decent power, by all means turbo the gsr, but again the best stock motor for forced induction goes to the ls.

Ok, I think some people are getting confused. So I want to clear 2 things up:
I do not have an integra yet, so I would not be doing an engine swap (nor would I ever) (I think this is what you might have been thinking trans_nsx, though I may have read it wrong)

And I will be using a costom turbo setup and not a kit, so that is irrelevant.

I still want the GS-R, but I dont have the money to pay for a blown engine. This is going to take all 5 month I have for research

Also, tran_nsx, correct me if I'm wrong but the GSR had a higher flowing turbo than the LS did on those dyno graphs as well? If that is the case, GScivic7, you need to understand that PSI does not necessarily equate power, airflow does. For instance, 10 PSI on a T25 will produce less power than a T03 running at 10 PSI.

Ok, I think some people are getting confused. So I want to clear 2 things up:
I do not have an integra yet, so I would not be doing an engine swap (nor would I ever) (I think this is what you might have been thinking trans_nsx, though I may have read it wrong)

And I will be using a costom turbo setup and not a kit, so that is irrelevant.

I still want the GS-R, but I dont have the money to pay for a blown engine. This is going to take all 5 month I have for research

i wasn't assuming u had an integra already, i just thought u want to know which was better for f/i.

there are two main benefits of from using a custom set up, one can be less expensive, another can be better power gains. now heres the main drawbacks, they aren't alway less expensive, they don't always get better power gains, if something goes wrong then your damn s.o.l.

if this is your first kit then my advice would be to just get a preassembled kit from rev hard, fmax, drag or greddy. everything is there waiting to be installed by their authorized dealer and if something goes wrong, you have the peace of mind that its warrantied. plus if you think that the kit is not powerful enough all you got to do is upgrades the parts and boost away just like what maxspeedhonda did. after fully understanding everything about turbos, its neccesary parts, and the installation then the next step up is too build your own custom kit. again this is what i would do, i rather be safe then sorry.

Also, tran_nsx, correct me if I'm wrong but the GSR had a higher flowing turbo than the LS did on those dyno graphs as well? If that is the case, GScivic7, you need to understand that PSI does not necessarily equate power, airflow does. For instance, 10 PSI on a T25 will produce less power than a T03 running at 10 PSI.

Well stated, there is more to power gains than just PSI alone. Airflow has a lot to do with it. How much CFM is required to achive the HP goal, etc...should be the first main factor when choosing a turbo, not "I want to run x psi."

Also, Teggy Pwnage, tran_nsx is not saying you are going to swap, he is saying fact for fact, when compared accross the board side to side, the LS is the best motor for FI. It can make more power and torque, partially a result of being able to handle more PSI, than any other honda motor. The internals are stronger (in terms of FI) and better suited for FI. This allows the LS to handle more boost, which will give it more HP and torque than the others under ideal conditions (same turbo choice, set-up, used on both). Now, as Polygon said, turbo choice, airflow, can make a difference too, so get a good flowing turbo set-up, boost the GSR to the max safe 8psi and the LS to the max safe 12psi. The LS will have the broader troque curve, the greater torque, and the higher HP. That's because it's better suited for FI. Now of course, if you give the LS a crappier set-up, you can manipulate the output figures back the other way to a certain extent. But in terms of which motor is capiable of handling more boost, and providing a broader torque curve and better HP and torque output stock, the LS is the one that fits the bill.

ok, now i feel like im repeating myself. lets start over and hopefully u understand this time. look at the dynos i've given again, as u can see the gsr is at 8 psi correct? and the ls is at 10 correct? what u don't understand is that the gsr safest boost is @ 8 psi, so in other words u don't want to go higher than this unless u have implemented mods or internal work to achieve higher boost. the ls on the other hand can safely go up to 12 psi, but as you can see it's only at 10 and it's basically even with hp and kills the gsr in tq. my point, if the ls was at 12 psi, the gsr wouldn't stand a chance. now yes because of its compression ratio, the gsr makes more hp at a lower psi, but because of it's c/r it can't boost as high.

about the tq comment, yes due to its lighter weight it doesn't need as much tq (that also goes for hp) to compete against heavier cars, but nonetheless u still need it. when comparing two cars with the same weight, if they both have the same amout of hp, but one has quite a bit more tq, than the faster car would of course be the one with higher amount of tq since this is the most important part of the launch. also don't forget, hp is only a product of tq.

now if u want decent power, by all means turbo the gsr, but again the best stock motor for forced induction goes to the ls.

dude, i know that the GSR can't handle as much boost in stock form as the LS, but anyone who is really serious about making power should really consider the GSR. I just believe it's a better platform to begin with. Also, it's all about tuning. You can just as well have an LS only set at 8 psi, and run like a complete piece of shit and eventually die on you if it isn't tuned properly. Anyone really serious about making power is going to end up upgrading the internals on the motor whether it be GSR or LS making the GSR a better platform to begin with. But, stock form, I will agree with you LS is better to boost.

Also, tran_nsx, correct me if I'm wrong but the GSR had a higher flowing turbo than the LS did on those dyno graphs as well? If that is the case, GScivic7, you need to understand that PSI does not necessarily equate power, airflow does. For instance, 10 PSI on a T25 will produce less power than a T03 running at 10 PSI.

dude, what the hell is the point in comparing the two then. Unless the motors have identical setups and decent tuning on both the dynographs account for nothing. I know it's airflow that really matters. That's the reason why I opted for a T3/T04E turbo instead of going with a T3 before I decided to get a new car. The reduced turbo lag of the T3 was looking really good, but I knew the potential of that turbo was nowhere near what the T3/T04E turbo has.

I think we can all agree, in stock from, the LS can handle more and have a higher max output than the GSR. However, if you are re-building the internals (re-sleeve, pistons and rods, cams, etc), then the best motor choice to boost becomes moot. You can modife the internal to fit your need, and then in the end, it will all come down to the tuning as to whether it will last. Is there pre-detination, etc. Any motor can be made to handle boost if you re-build it. I think what GScivic7 is saying is in stock from, yes, he agree's, the LS is the best motor to boost, if you are leaving it stock. However, if you are re-building the internals, he would rather have the GSR cuz he thinks it's a better platform. I am guessing airflow and vtec (when properly tuned for boost, which not a lot of people do) are possibly some of the reasons why. In the end, no matter the motor, a big part of how much output you have depends on how well it was tuned.

Also, tran_nsx, correct me if I'm wrong but the GSR had a higher flowing turbo than the LS did on those dyno graphs as well? If that is the case, GScivic7, you need to understand that PSI does not necessarily equate power, airflow does. For instance, 10 PSI on a T25 will produce less power than a T03 running at 10 PSI.

yes very true polygon. to get a little specific though, although they both use the same size turbo, whats separates them is the amount of quality and engineering which is put into the rev hard kit to maximize efficiency and performance unlike the drag. some of the parts for the rev hard kit even won awards from the sema convention so it does reflect the quality of products they produce.

dude, i know that the GSR can't handle as much boost in stock form as the LS, but anyone who is really serious about making power should really consider the GSR. I just believe it's a better platform to begin with. Also, it's all about tuning. You can just as well have an LS only set at 8 psi, and run like a complete piece of shit and eventually die on you if it isn't tuned properly. Anyone really serious about making power is going to end up upgrading the internals on the motor whether it be GSR or LS making the GSR a better platform to begin with. But, stock form, I will agree with you LS is better to boost.

this was what this whole debate was about if im not mistaken, teggy didn't say anything about modifying it to it's max capabilities. even if he did, the answer would be in a very gray area, what i do know is the winner is the one with the deepest pockets. if your saying the gsr is the best after all that mods then i hope u have some proof to back that up, im not say either one since like i said earlier that is a gray subject and how much a person is willing to spend.

yes tuning does have a lot to do with the results, that is part of the process with f/i so there was no bother mention it, well i thought there was no reason for me to mention it.

heres a dyno of an ls with some really extreme mods u might just as well call it a monster. if u multiply that by 15% and add that to the dyno whp, this would be around 770 at the crank!!!!!!!!!!!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/80346turbonovtec.jpg

Oil squirters, block girdle, plus a better flowing IM and head are the reasons I say the GSR is a better platform to start out with if you are serious about tuning. If a GSR motor was bored out with internal work to handle 32 psi, plus the little extra kick that VTEC will give it, I will bet it will out perform that LS engine. It is all about how much money you have to spend. But mod for mod, I don't think an LS will produce the same numbers as a GSR.

Well I believe tran_nsx eckoman and polygon made their case pretty well. So I will not add to that.


However I would like to point out that saying that torque doesn’t matter as much is a big NO NO. The torque curves across the rpm band its all that matters. Hp is just an arbitrary derivative of that.


Here is an article ilustrating that:

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

Well I believe tran_nsx eckoman and polygon made their case pretty well. So I will not add to that.


However I would like to point out that saying that torque doesn’t matter as much is a big NO NO. The torque curves across the rpm band its all that matters. Hp is just an arbitrary derivative of that.


Here is an article ilustrating that:

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

Oh, thanks, I was looking for that link to post it.

Oh, thanks, I was looking for that link to post it.

Yeah, I was trying to find it again too. I erased the link from the computer awhile back on accident without saving it. This time I'll make sure not to erase it, lol.

if this is your first kit then my advice would be to just get a preassembled kit from rev hard, fmax, drag or greddy. everything is there waiting to be installed by their authorized dealer and if something goes wrong, you have the peace of mind that its warrantied. plus if you think that the kit is not powerful enough all you got to do is upgrades the parts and boost away just like what maxspeedhonda did. after fully understanding everything about turbos, its neccesary parts, and the installation then the next step up is too build your own custom kit. again this is what i would do, i rather be safe then sorry.

This is my first turbo kit, but i think im pretty confident on what to get, and the other thing is that I live in minnesota. I don't think there are any dealers around here, or none that I know of anyway. I could save a $1000 on a costom kit and use that to have it tuned, and then I wouldn't need to upgrade parts either, so I would save $2000, thats a hondata with good tuning.

I could get an LS for $7k and a turbo setup with tunning and hondata for under $4k. and then a year later i could upgrade the internals. Thats what im shooting for, but i still need to get a job.

So i figure for $15k, i could beat my friends 3000gt vr4 and my other friends neon srt-4, and have spent less money than both of them.

but, there cars are brand new.

but, there cars are brand new.

The Dodge SRT-4 Neon may be brand new, but the Mitsubishi 3000gt vr4 is not brand new by any means.

yea, my bad i don't know what i was thinking.

just be careful with that srt4. those answer to small mods like nothing. less than 2k and he will be in the mid 12's

Oil squirters, block girdle, plus a better flowing IM and head are the reasons I say the GSR is a better platform to start out with if you are serious about tuning. If a GSR motor was bored out with internal work to handle 32 psi, plus the little extra kick that VTEC will give it, I will bet it will out perform that LS engine. It is all about how much money you have to spend. But mod for mod, I don't think an LS will produce the same numbers as a GSR.

im not trying to be a dick here but lets really think about this for a sec., if the gsr is was modded like the ls shown, theorectically it should make more power, correct? one thing u forgot which was vital was the compression ratio, for the gsr to run at 32 psi, lowering the ratio to an ideal turbo c/r is definately a must. so now the the actual hp will decrease somewhat similar to the ls and what it boils down to is tq, which again is what the gsr doesn't have enough of over an ls. unless someone have found a way to run a high c/r on a turbo i would love to see some proof.

Give me a little time. There is a guy with an ITR that is looking for 600+ hp and 10 second time slips on a boosted B18C5 engine. I pmed him asking for compression numbers, engine internal mods and his turbo setup

heres one, check the c/r:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0302scc_uscc2_05/

Give me a little time. There is a guy with an ITR that is looking for 600+ hp and 10 second time slips on a boosted B18C5 engine. I pmed him asking for compression numbers, engine internal mods and his turbo setup

I am sure he is. However, I am sure that it is a race only setup. I am also sure that he will spend a lot of time rebuilding his engine. I knew a guy with a Civic hatch running 32PSI on a 10:1 compression ratio. The car was not even close to being able to run on the street and the only thing stock about the engine was the block. He spent a lot of time and money keeping that car running.

Hell, my GTC's engine and internals can handle 30PSI stock, but at an 8:1 compression ratio and it is an extreemely over built engine.

this guy was pushing 400 hp and his car was daily driven...i'm not sure about the streetability of his new setup, but you guys never said anything about streetability. I thought this was just a debate of whether these high compression motors can handle boost.