While I appreciate all the free advice given here by the GM techs, I can't help but wonder why the #1 car manufacturer in the world continues to put substandard cars on the market. I can't begin to tell you how frustrated and downright mad I am. I work hard for my money and try to buy american. But I will NEVER buy another GM product as long as I live. The 98GA I bought 5 months ago had the same chronic intake gasket problems I have read about here numerous times. I replaced them only to find out the engine was toast. Why does GM continue to use this piece of @*&# in its engines? So honest hard working consumers have to keep paying to fix them? This car had 80000 miles on it. The gauge never showed it got hot! My last car was a 85 Prelude. I put 265000 miles on it and it was still running fine when I sold it. I never had any major engine problems with it. As far as I am concerned GM is nothing but a money grubbing corp. that cares nothing for its consumers. The way they rip people off should be a crime! Everytime I tried to ask a dealer service tech a question I got the same line of crap, bring it in, we have to look at it, for an overrated fee, of course! They wouldn't even tell me how to see if the car I bought came with keyless entry. I found that out here. Suffice to say this is my last post as I will never need to ask about any of GM's lousy, rotten, piece of SH*T lemons AGAIN!!!!

Well first off sorry to hear about your bad experiance. Second if use Mechanics gave free advice all the time we would be out of bussiness. There is such a thing as a Lemon LAW. I am sure your car would have been covered in that. I am willing to bet if you would have contacted them, the dealer, and Threatened to get a Laywer They probably would have done something about it. No matter the Maker all Car have problems Some a bigger problem than others. I have only owned GM cars , but I work on all Types, and find GM to be great. So don't let one bad thing ruin your thoughts on a good car company.

I, myself am not a domestic car guy. My family has alway bought Japanese except for our pickup. Japanese cars go forever and they are just great all around cars! never buy american! :nono:

I too quit buying GM cars because of recurring quality issues. GM's simply amazing. They took the number 1 selling car in the 1970's - the Olds Cutlass and improved it to the point that nobody wanted to buy it anymore. A year ago my daughter was interested in buying a new Saturn. On the test drive, a vacuum line fell off the engine and the car quit on us. So much for their quality control. She ended up buying a new Toyota.

Regards:
Oldengineer

I would be inclined to agree. Its infuriating to buy a new car and have it break in an expensive and premature way.
I bought a BMW 733 from a friend who was the original owner, at 120,000 miles. They had dumped many thousands of dollars into it, and I got it for a song. I loved the car, but it had persistant electrical, head gasket and structural problems along with lots of little things that would go wrong.
The dealer had a monopoly on parts and would soak all their customer, so, although none of the problems were too severe, the car was not worth fixing.
My friends new 735 was no better and started breaking in a big way early, to the benefit of the dealers bank balance.

I have found GM is very inconsistent in their product quality. The 3.8 L V6 is incredibly reliable and is excellent. The 2.8 to 3.4 L family of engines is poor due to gasket and camshaft issues.
Customers should not have to do relaibility research to find out what is going to last or not. Everything should be built to meet certain standards. The Japanese companys generally do this. GM does not and is paying the price for it.

The Japanese are not immune either. I bought a new Honda Accord several years back, and, it had so many problems I traded it as soon as the warranty ran out. Two of my kids bought Nissans and both had numerous, expensive problems with both of them. Parts are every bit as pricey as BMW. For example - a distributor replacement for one son's Nissan' Sentra was $1000 at the dealer. My daughter had a Honda Civic. The exhaust manifold develped a crack at 50,000 miles. The parts alone were $800 from the dealer. Anymore - no matter what brand you buy it seems to be a crap shoot. Best advice I can offer is:
1. Avoid the first year after a model has undergone major changes.
2. Buy a few less options and get the extended factory-backed warranty if available.
3. Shop at a dealer who has a decent, competent service department complete with techs that can actually fix something proficiently - hard to find these days.
4. If you have a major problem and the dealer gives you the run-around - don't be afraid to call the factory toll free and get them involved.

Regards:
Oldengineer

well.. id go with chevys, they last forever ive had my corvette since I graduated high school.. thats over 30 years without having one problem.

I'd agree with you that your Vette is a great car. However the Chevy 4's and V-6's on the market pale in comparison to Chevy's V-8s.

Regards:
Oldengineer

There is some merit to buying an older car in really good shape and fixing it yourself. This is not an alternative for most people, but its worked for me.
I find my '88 Pontiac is very straightforward to repair. Even though it has electronic fuel injection, it is far more simple than a more modern car. Most of GM's electronic controls were common across their entire line, for many years, so the skills one learns are adapatable to many vehicles.
Of course, cars up to the late '70's seem rediculously simple and easy to repair, by comparison.

I agree with you. I picked up an old 1983 Chevy S-10 pick-up several years ago. The thing is so easy to work on - no electronics at all except for distributor. The old 2.8L V6 still has a plain old 2bbl carb sitting on it.

Regards:
Oldengineer

Sometimes it is as much the particular model you buy as the car company that made it. The Grand Am is just a disaster, has beem through every redesign actually. Everytime someone I know buys one I ask what in the hell they were thinking.

Every company has ther good products and bad products. Everyine fro m GM to Ford Hell even the coampy I work for Caterpillar. Nothing is designed perfectly. Now saying that you would never buy certian brand car just because of one mess up. I think is kinda fast to jump to conclusions.

HyPsi did a better job of making my point than I did. I would never buy a Grand Am unless GM went to extreme measures to prove to me that a new one was superior to the old. However, my mom recently bought a clean, low mileage 97 Catera based largely on my advice. (she loves it btw) Same car maker, totally different car.

I built Toyota's once upon a time, and I can tell you from experience that everybody throws out a "loser" or two. The Camry's designed and built during that time.....sorry, no way am I gonna buy one. I have seen what they are made of an how they are made. And, it frightens me.

If they make somebody else happy cool. That's all that really matters. However, I just advised my sister to buy a Land Cruiser without hesitation. Same maker, different model....As I said, model matters as much as brand.

You're right - The Catera is a totally different car because it's basically a German Opel Senator at heart. All Caddy did was make some cosmetic changes and stick their name oni it. It should give years of good service.

Regards:
Oldengineer

GM is a piece of shit period. No quality. Look at the corvettes interior for example, fucking ugly. Gm sucks!

Okay, let me clarify something. If it just so happened that my GA was the only model or year with this problem, I would not be so quick to crucify GM. However, since GM uses this motor and its lousy, plastic, chronically failing intake gaskets in a number of models and years, I feel they know there is a problem. Since they have done nothing to improve the problem (I have heard from owners of various models from year 89 to 03 with this exact same problem) I can say without reservation that GM doesn't give a flip about quality and I will not purchase from them again. How else do you explain the fact that they can't seem to fix a problem that has been around so long? Lack of technology? I don't think so. One more thing, I have owned many cars, GMs, Fords, Chrysler/Dodge, AMC, Jeep, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. This is the first time I had a car with chronic problems that were the result of defective or substandard parts. The other GMs were all pre 75 and I had nothing like this happen with any of them. My point is, that GM's quality has deteriorated over the years. Not just in the GA but it seems in many of their cars.

I'd agree with you that your Vette is a great car. However the Chevy 4's and V-6's on the market pale in comparison to Chevy's V-8s.

Regards:
Oldengineer

3.8 3800 is a great engine.

Okay, let me clarify something. If it just so happened that my GA was the only model or year with this problem, I would not be so quick to crucify GM. However, since GM uses this motor and its lousy, plastic, chronically failing intake gaskets in a number of models and years, I feel they know there is a problem. Since they have done nothing to improve the problem (I have heard from owners of various models from year 89 to 03 with this exact same problem) I can say without reservation that GM doesn't give a flip about quality and I will not purchase from them again. How else do you explain the fact that they can't seem to fix a problem that has been around so long? Lack of technology? I don't think so. One more thing, I have owned many cars, GMs, Fords, Chrysler/Dodge, AMC, Jeep, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. This is the first time I had a car with chronic problems that were the result of defective or substandard parts. The other GMs were all pre 75 and I had nothing like this happen with any of them. My point is, that GM's quality has deteriorated over the years. Not just in the GA but it seems in many of their cars.
Seeing that you own a Grand Am, the engine isnt that great to begin with. HOWEVER, the other engines such as the 3.8(as mentioned above), the 5.3, as well as the great 5.7 are all wonderful motors. Also, I work at a Pontiac dealership, and the problem you refer to, I haven't seen very much of over that past 2 and half years Ive worked there. Now, when you say GM is a joke, so mean to say that Cadillac is a joke? or that Saab is a joke? Perhaps even toyota? Because the first two are run through GM and the third deals with GM quite a bit; what do you think th VVTi engine is? that's right, toyota. Granted, GM has had their fair share of problems, but you can't expect an auto manufacturer to not have at least one car that isn't exactly the best in the bunch.

GM is a piece of shit period. No quality. Look at the corvettes interior for example, fucking ugly. Gm sucks!
corvette z06 is a great car, and quite well made.

I said look at the interior. Not the car in general. The interior looks shit crappy. Crappier than my fugin civic and its 40,000.

Ok - Pontiac mechanic - what you're saying in essence is: Stick to GM engines designed in the 1950's and 60's, or, made by some other manufacturer, and you'll have an Ok car. The basic problem is - the newer GM cars seemed to be engineered by a bunch of damn accountants. That's why Oldsmobile is now on its deathbed.

Regards:
Oldengineer

Swigz
You work for GM? Okay then you tell me why they continue to use the same substandard piece of @#*& parts when they know the parts are @#*&. And, AGAIN! The motor with this problem is used in more models than just the GA. Defend them all you want. They should fix the problem. My reference to GM being a joke is in the context of their lack of customer service and total failure to stand behind what they manufacture. I would be ashamed to work for a corp. that continues to blatantly disregard a major flaw in workmanship. They are a money hungry corporation that cares little about customer satisfaction. They are indicative of everything that is wrong with virtually every large American Corp. Money is concern 1, not the customer. This is why I will not buy from GM again. I'll buy a honda and still be driving it when your GM is in the wrecking yard. Tell me why GM can't build a vehicle that runs like any of the 3 Hondas I have owned. I drove those cars for a minimum of 230000 miles and NEVER had one single engine problem. Just routine maintenance. When GM can build a car that can compete with Honda in durability, fuel economy and performance, I'll take back every bad thing I've ever said and run out and buy one. Till then, GM IS A JOKE!!!!!!

Swigz
You work for GM? Okay then you tell me why they continue to use the same substandard piece of @#*& parts when they know the parts are @#*&. And, AGAIN! The motor with this problem is used in more models than just the GA. Defend them all you want. They should fix the problem. My reference to GM being a joke is in the context of their lack of customer service and total failure to stand behind what they manufacture. I would be ashamed to work for a corp. that continues to blatantly disregard a major flaw in workmanship. They are a money hungry corporation that cares little about customer satisfaction. They are indicative of everything that is wrong with virtually every large American Corp. Money is concern 1, not the customer. This is why I will not buy from GM again. I'll buy a honda and still be driving it when your GM is in the wrecking yard. Tell me why GM can't build a vehicle that runs like any of the 3 Hondas I have owned. I drove those cars for a minimum of 230000 miles and NEVER had one single engine problem. Just routine maintenance. When GM can build a car that can compete with Honda in durability, fuel economy and performance, I'll take back every bad thing I've ever said and run out and buy one. Till then, GM IS A JOKE!!!!!!
Do you want my honest opinion? I agree that the 3.4 is a substandard engine. Honestly, if I had my way, the 3.8 would be in the grand am, just as it is in the Grand Prix, but I can't control that now can I. I own an 89 oldsmobile, and it has 88k on it right now; there is a man that brings his buick into the shop for regular maintenance that has 310k on it, not all GM vehicles are bad, and they are both on series I 3800's. The GN engine was a series I 3800, modified to fit a turbo, and you know what? It's considered one of the best performance V-6's ever produced. Now, I'm sorry that you've had so many problems with your vehicle, and I am also sorry that you have also dealt with assholes(from the sounds of it anyways)as far as service goes. In my place of work, the customer comes above all else, if they aren't happy, then we figure out what we messed up and we fix it. Bottom line. By the way, I never said I was a technician. I am only 18, however my father is a ASE certified and GM certified Master Technician, and he would side with me, and you as well, that the 3.4 is substandard and is a blatant piece of shit. I can't change that, and GM must be making some amount of money off of it, though I wish they didn't.
Now, I understand that not everyone is going to like GM, or Ford or Dodge, or whatever, and that's fine. I can't do a damn thing about what you think except defend certain aspects of the company that I feel should be defended. Notice that I only argue certain points? Not all the brands owned by GM are complete flops, if you know who is owned by GM I'm sure you could at least find one amoung the group that you don't find to terribly bad. Again, I am sorry that you have been treated in such a way when dealing with service and your car.

Swigz,
I am not attacking you personally. Yes, the experience I had was bad. Worst ever. I am still angry, as u can see. However, you stated your position well. I understand that not all GMs are garbage. I have owned several that were great cars. But those were all pre 75 models...66 Impala, 71 Pontiac T37, and a 72 Camaro. I guess I just hate the idea that a corp that made such great cars back in the day turns out crap like the 3.1 now. I bought the GA last July, it failed in December. I now own a $5000 oversized paperweight. Can't afford a new motor, still need a car. Actually I am going to look at a 72 Nova SS a friend of mine has. I still like the oldies, just have no faith in the new ones.

Swigz,
I am not attacking you personally. Yes, the experience I had was bad. Worst ever. I am still angry, as u can see. However, you stated your position well. I understand that not all GMs are garbage. I have owned several that were great cars. But those were all pre 75 models...66 Impala, 71 Pontiac T37, and a 72 Camaro. I guess I just hate the idea that a corp that made such great cars back in the day turns out crap like the 3.1 now. I bought the GA last July, it failed in December. I now own a $5000 oversized paperweight. Can't afford a new motor, still need a car. Actually I am going to look at a 72 Nova SS a friend of mine has. I still like the oldies, just have no faith in the new ones.
I apologize if I gave you the inclination that I was offended as I was not at all. I completely understand why you are angry, and you have every right to be as well. I do agree with what you say about GM having produced such great cars a while back and now producing such things as the 3.4, and it yes it is sad. Also, I believe GM is coming out with a new inline 5 engine which is a 3.5 litre, I'm not sure if they are getting rid of the 3.4, but if they do, I will not be distraught. If you really want my honest opinion, buy a Nissan; they are great cars and are known for their quality. I would personally buy a Nissan sedan over any Pontiac sedan.

3.8 3800 is a great engine.

Just to make it be known. The 3800 series II engines in all GM products are made by Buick. :icon16:

Out of all the cars I've owned, I have had better luck with GM than any of the others. Out of the 7 cars I've owned, all being GM, except a Honda Civic, and an 02 Eclipse. I put more money into repairing the Honda than all the GMs combined. The Mitsu, quite a few problems, and I have to take it back for still several more warranty repairs. Biggest problem I had in any of the GMs was in an '86 Cavalier Z24, had to put a tranny in it, but that is part my fault, I was 16, and it couldn't hold the numerous neutral drops. Other than that, cooling problems in a '92 Custlass Supreme with a 3.1L was the biggest. The Honda, 2 distributers ($500 each), coil, igniter, clutch, wheel bearings, sunroof track, and other minor problems. A month after I sold it to a friend of mine, the transmission differential locked up. The Mitsu, sunroof track, trim piece coming loose, leather flaking, cd changer quit working, warped rotors, and still have to take it in for bad hatch struts, headlights clear coat flaking on inside of lense and rainbowing, and paint on wheel centercaps peeling. So, no matter what car you get, you are going to run into bad ones here and there. I believe Hondas are good cars, even though I had extremely bad luck with the one I had. I would be hesitant on buying another one, but I might some day. As far as dealerships not helping you out, that is a dealership to dealership situation. There is a GMC, Olds dealership that I have dealt with for year that has the best service I have ever seen. My mom had a 90 GMC Safari AWD. About 2k miles out of warranty the ABS computer went out. Dealer or GM paid for the computer, she paid labor. About 6 months after that, the paint started peeling. Typical with a blue color around that year. No cost to her, but had the entire van repainted. We have bought 3 vehicles from that dealership and have always received excellent service. I wouldn't count out GM just for one bad vehicle or one bad experience at a dealership.

I quit shopping GM after 4 bad cars in a row. My last one, a 1985 Chevy Celebrity Eurosport Wagon, was a doozy. In 36,000 miles the car was towed in 6 times for major electronic engine control failures. The dealer fixed the same oil leak 3 times. Then, at around 30,000, the rear suspension broke while my wife was driving it, and, almost wrecked her. The car was so unreliable that we could not chance taking it on any sort of trip - it's favorite trick was to back-fire and quit, usually on the interstate. The dealer, one of the best here, tried and tried to fix it, but, to no avail even after several thousands of dollars in replacement parts.. As soon as it went out of warranty, I dumped it and switched to Ford and Chrysler. Have run 14 Chryslers and Fords up to 100K without major problems. My current Chrysler is problematic, but , not as bad as the Chevy's and Oldsmobiles were that I used to buy.

Regards:
Oldengineer

Still, you are just one of how many people who bought GM? Not every vehicle is going to be a winner, it just so happens you had the misfortune to get more. Anyways, I think I'm just going to bow out of this argument because no matter what I say, or how much I defend my stance, it's not going to have any impact on you or your stance on GM, so I might as well not even bother.

Don't take it so hard. I was a engineer for Delco from 1968 - 1978. We in the component divisions could see what the corporation was doing to cut costs, and, gravitate to the series of "clone" cars that started to appear in the late 70's. Not only did they stick me personally with some bad vehicles, they tanked the price of my GM stock when they started to loose market share and profitability. What they did to Olds, Pontiac, and Chevy through the 1980's was a crime, and, opened the door wide for the Japanese. Even today, I'd consider buying a Buick with a 3.8 for my business use, but, the dealer here has a pathetic service dept and a horrid reputation. I'm not fond of rice-burners, and, would love to see GM burn them for a change with some innovative, high quality, affordable product. The new Caddy line is showing signs of life, and, is getting good reviews. I'd dearly love to see Buick and Pontiac go head to head against Toyota and Honda across the board as well.

Regards:
Oldengineer

GMs process of making vehicals just does not work. They are still mass producing on a line while other companies like Toyota are using a cell structure to make the different cars. This allows toyota to find defects and repair them much quicker and allows for greater customizability. GM also still deals with suppliers on a 1-2 yr contract basis last time I believe. They give the supplier the contract because of price not neccassarily quality. Toyota has long term contracts with suppliers, thus the better products them make to supply toyota directly affects how many products they get to make and sell to toyota. Thus the suppliers try to innovate their products each year and make them better. Ever heard of TQM? They have less to lose and a lot to gain. SInce the suppliers to GM only have a short term vested interest which is to make a cheap part to have a low bid, then they get low quality parts. This also allows for less innovation. Most japanese companies follow the Toyota way, well its actually called the keiretsu system. Companies are switching over quickly like DaimlerChrysler.

Sometimes it is as much the particular model you buy as the car company that made it. The Grand Am is just a disaster, has beem through every redesign actually. Everytime someone I know buys one I ask what in the hell they were thinking.
You are right, the G/A is junk.The 2.4 is an evil motor that should be sent back to hell.I'm not even sure what motor they have in them today.But,I say"Be afraid,be very afraid(of major repair bills.)

I, myself am not a domestic car guy. My family has alway bought Japanese except for our pickup. Japanese cars go forever and they are just great all around cars! never buy american! :nono:

Toyotas, nissans, honda's etc. are the best. After owning a Tahoe, Blazer, and other GM's i would have to say that they are all pieces of s*it.

My wife had the Blazer :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: - when we brought it home and pulled in the garage, it was crooked, :screwy: the whole truck was out of alignment. 10000 miles later - the raditator died. At 20000 miles, the raditator died again. The tires where wearing unevenly - it would go back (we leased it) before it needed new ones. By the time 36000 miles came, no speakers worked, the tach was dead, and there were numberous other problems with it. :banghead:

The Tahoe was mine. 40000 miles, the transmission went. :banghead: The tires were wearing unevenly, and the radio couldn't receive a signal if its life depended on it. It had to be towed a countless number of times for little falures here and there. :banghead: It just wasn't realiable. I only put about 75000 on this truck

Ever since i have boughten imports. I have a Rav4 (the company car) a 2000 Land Crusier (which i am going to sell) the 4Runner, and the BMW X5. I also had a 97 Land Crusier 40th anniversery eddition. None have ever had any problems. The 97 Land Crusier had 90000 miles when my lease was up. The 00 Land Crusier has 130,000 miles on it now. I still drive it time to time. Never replaced anything - and got about 100000 miles out of the tires. That shows a perfect truck. :biggrin: The X5 4.4i is nice but the only reason why i bought it was because it was fast, and i am not a huge fan of the Sequia's styling. I needed something somewhat big and i really liked the Bimmer.

I have never really been a Ford fan, and all the freakin recalls really bother me. The Explorer has got to be the worse assembled truck on the market. (I don't know about the new ones, but the 95-00 were aweful)

That is just my opinion/experiences. You don't have to agree.

GMs process of making vehicals just does not work. They are still mass producing on a line while other companies like Toyota are using a cell structure to make the different cars. This allows toyota to find defects and repair them much quicker and allows for greater customizability. GM also still deals with suppliers on a 1-2 yr contract basis last time I believe. They give the supplier the contract because of price not neccassarily quality. Toyota has long term contracts with suppliers, thus the better products them make to supply toyota directly affects how many products they get to make and sell to toyota. Thus the suppliers try to innovate their products each year and make them better. Ever heard of TQM? They have less to lose and a lot to gain. SInce the suppliers to GM only have a short term vested interest which is to make a cheap part to have a low bid, then they get low quality parts. This also allows for less innovation. Most japanese companies follow the Toyota way, well its actually called the keiretsu system. Companies are switching over quickly like DaimlerChrysler.

Absolultly.

I'd agree with you that your Vette is a great car. However the Chevy 4's and V-6's on the market pale in comparison to Chevy's V-8s.

Regards:
Oldengineer
I agree with the v6 comment.But,my 98 Cavalier(4banger) is still going.Quite well too.It,had its share of small problems early on.But,I bought the extended warranty.It saved me some money.Now I pretty much have had 0 problems.

gm knows those gaskets are shit and they leave them on there to weed out dickheads like you. if you know anything about gm cars the first thing you do on a 3.1-3.4 is the intake gaskets. i know people who have had those gaskets leak for months without replacing them and not have any problems. i bet when you were done with the gaskets you started the car and it was knocking. i would go as far as to say you didnt mark your intake/exhaust pushrods. i would even venture to say you didnt know that they are different sizes and if you cross them up the valves hit the pistons.
i would even venture to say gm doesnt care if you dont like there cars. i would also say that they dont want people like you who dont know shit about cars to work on there cars.

3.8 3800 is a great engine.

Yea - its a great engine - made by Buick, not Chevy.

Regards:
Oldengineer.

this thread is still going?

american power at its finest.......

I cant complain about my truck. A 97 Sonoma with 129K miles on the clock. The 4.3 has given me years of reliable service. Some of the engine accessorices have been replaced and it's on a second transmission (due to the transmission fluid cooler rupturing) but I've been very pleased with it.
I look at my mom's Impala, which was tinkered with by the Dealer before we even bought it and it's had countless problems... headlights, transmission gasket, and horrible front suspension problems. I'm not sure who to blame on the Impala, but the thing is a joke.

I bought a GMC 4x4 SL Sierra, with the 350 and trailoring package. To date is only has 90,000KM on it. I have had my share of problems, but what infuriates me is the inability of GM's Goodwrench garages to fix my problems the first time. Problems occurs too many times, and it takes too many trips to the garage to fix each problem. You argue with the shop manager that it is warranty work, and he says it is now. My wife has a Honda Civic, with 150,000KM, and to date we have replaced the muffler cause we had too, and the timing belt cause I wanted to.

GM is in the business of SALES, selling cars, not making them. Hoever this short sighted vision is costing them market share big time.

While I have owned two other trucks prior, and also had disappointing results, I will document only the truck I currently own.

(1) Gear selector stick very very hard to move up and down. This problem came from the factory. I am amazed and wonder why the mechanics who previously drove the truck never reported it as a "problem found during routing maintence". Anyway, when I pick up the truck, it is so easy to move I can shift using my baby finger. Anyway I pull out of the GM parking lot, and drive down the street. I hit a pothole and the stick fell down into 1st gear. My tires did the lock up and bounch thing, my rpm gauge hit way up. I turned the truck around and took it back to the garage. After the second trip they fixed it. Their offical answer was that something broke when I hit the pothole. Bullshit... it was like that when I started it in the GM parking lot.

(2) Truck is pulling to the right. The first two trips to get it fixed did nothing. The 3rd trip I was happy, or so I thought. My truck was pulling straight as an arrow. Anyway I drove to Nova Scotia, then to Maine, and then back to Ontario. Two days later when washing the bugs of the truck I happened to look at my front tires. OH MY GOSH!!! The outside of each front tire was gone!!! The rubber was worn down to nothing, a bit more and the wire would of starting sticking out. I had my suspicisions.... and took it to a 3rd party wheel alignment specialist. He confirmed my suspicisions. The alignment or "toe" was set inwards 7 degrees on one tire, and 7.5 on the other.!!!!! I drove over 5000KMs on two tires that were scuffing inwards thus grinding away the outisde. I went to the GM garage, and argues and yelled, and to make a long story short, I was wrong as far as the manager is concerned when I accused them of deliberatly setting my tires like that. The 3rd party told me that for both tires to go 7/7.5 degrees, could only mean one thing....humans hands did it. So I bought new tires, plus paid for four wheel alignments.

(3) A few months later I had a new problem. My anti-locks would kick in, when I put the brakes on. The GM garage informed that the beerings on the left side were shot. I said only after 30,000KM they are shot already!!! If you had screwed up my wheel alightment this would not of happened, there would not habe been all that strain on the beerings. He said' that is your opinion and that is not what happened". So I asked what are the chances of the right side going soon. He said "nope we checked it, and it is rock solid".

(4) Two months later antilocks started kicking in again. Went back to gargage and right tire bearings were gone!!! Hmmm imagine that!!!

(5) Took my truck in to get detailed, washed, waxed, etc. Cost me 80$ bucks. Picked it up, and it was completly dirty as I left it. Went back inside and the manager asked "did we miss a spot"?? Unbelieveable.

(6) Picked out a set of medium sized mudflaps for the truck, with the lettering GMC. Picked up the truck, and find Chevy on my truck!

(7) Got a antifreeze leak on the engine block towards the drivers side rear, and it drips on the exhaust below. Picked up the truck and was told "your truck is fine, it is not leaking". I popped the hood, pointed, and asked "why is my resovoir bottle empty then?"...answer.... "I dunno".... then I looked underneath and pointed, and "whose coolant is that on the ground?" and he said "probably someone elses". I just paid an hour of labour to be told this??

I only got 90,000 KM on the truck!!! Today, My wipers have an intermittent electrical problem, and I noticed that sometimes the little yellow light on the Air Cond button stays on even when the fan switch is turned to OFF. My starter freezes up in the winter time, and today I got a new one. I turned the key and my starter failed to engage properly. Instead the thing sounded like a circular saw trying to cut metal. I have another problem that I'm not sure is a problem or is it is normal....I have never notives it before so I think it is another new problem. If I don't drive the truck for two weeks, it is very hard to start. I can turn that engine over for a minute and nothing happens. I let the key go, and listen and notice that the whine from the fuel pump is not there. Try the key again, and then 30 seconds later the truck starts. Turn the key back and then forard again, and now I hear the fuel pump.

Meanwhile my wife's little ar keeps on going, no questions asked. I hear this from everyone that has owned a GM too. Too many problems too often, and unbelievable crappy service at the garage.

I am waiting a few years, cause I hear Honda is making a SUV/truck type vehicle. Hopefully it got 4x4. If they make this, then I will buy it, if not maybe another Honda, or I might try a Volvo SUV with all-wheel drive, or maybe their S60.

Regardless, no more GMs for me, and guess what....my dad has stopped buying, his bothers and their sons have stopped too!! ....and what do you think we will tell our sons when they wanna buy a GM......?? That is why GM is losing market share!!

I agree with your last statement and the reasons, but it seems as if your local garage is at fault in most of these circumstances. If its still under warranty, use a different dealer. If its no warranty, go anywhere else.

I agree with your last statement and the reasons, but it seems as if your local garage is at fault in most of these circumstances. If its still under warranty, use a different dealer. If its no warranty, go anywhere else.


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Sorry dude, my problems with the truck mentioned about span three different GM garages, and my previous truck will add another two GM garages.

I will probably trade the truck in soon for a Honda or Volvo. Its too late for anyone to suggest me a reason to buy another GM.

--------

Sorry dude, my problems with the truck mentioned about span three different GM garages, and my previous truck will add another two GM garages.

I will probably trade the truck in soon for a Honda or Volvo. Its too late for anyone to suggest me a reason to buy another GM.

I am not going to defend GM; they have dug their own hole, for a variety of reasons. I am saying that the problems you have are not GM, they are mostly the result of poor service and repairs outside of GM's responsiblity.
Sure, blame the crappy garages. That is where the blame lies. But all you seem to have had is a stiff shifter from new and some minor electrical glitches after 90,000 km.Thats not doing too badly. Unless there is stuff you have not said, everything else is the result of the independent garages and dealers.

I am not going to defend GM; they have dug their own hole, for a variety of reasons. I am saying that the problems you have are not GM, they are mostly the result of poor service and repairs outside of GM's responsiblity.
Sure, blame the crappy garages. That is where the blame lies. But all you seem to have had is a stiff shifter from new and some minor electrical glitches after 90,000 km.Thats not doing too badly. Unless there is stuff you have not said, everything else is the result of the independent garages and dealers.

I would have to agree people dont take care of there cars for whatever reasons start forming opinions about different companys anycar can last a long time if you take car of it any little problem can become a bigger proplem if you dont take car of it and not to mention people shop around for car service and most people would go to the mom and pop place where they do a half ass job then the the owner sells the car and bam the proplem happens all over again and the does not even half 75K miles on it!! my point is just take care of your cars people and learn about the one you want to buy before you buy it

GM's profit were due to its PORN peddling biz according to Sep-05-04 "60 Minutes". Their cars are losing money. Anyway, great American car builders work for Honda, Toyota and Nissan. That is why Ford and GM had to buy into hybrid car design from Toyota and Honda. MAy be four more years will pollute America so that doctors and their drug pushers will profit enormously. Buy thier stocks, not their car -- because of upcoming tax loophole that will alllow Enron type profiteering, IMO.

politics

GM's profit were due to its PORN peddling biz according to Sep-05-04 "60 Minutes". Their cars are losing money. Anyway, great American car builders work for Honda, Toyota and Nissan. That is why Ford and GM had to buy into hybrid car design from Toyota and Honda. MAy be four more years will pollute America so that doctors and their drug pushers will profit enormously. Buy thier stocks, not their car -- because of upcoming tax loophole that will alllow Enron type profiteering, IMO.
What the hell are you talking about? Porn biz?
You have six wild claims there, n00b. So before we falsely accuse GM and libel the entire medical and pharmeceutical industries, lets see some intellegent analysis backed up by facts, or STFU.

Yeah... American cars sure do sux

Buy European/Asian

yea.... newbe know it all

I have owned and still own GM`s, both have done very well. I have a 92 astro with 218,000 mi on it and it`s drivetrain is original, still runs and drives great. I also have a 98 2 dr tahoe that has 88,000 mi and it still runs and drives great. I went to the chevy dealer the other day to test drive a trailblazer , I thought I was going to love it. It turned out to be a big dissapointment. It was a $40,000 peice of junk. Sorry, just my opinion. I would still buy a full size GM truck, but not one of their smaller ones. It looked like they cut corners on quality everywhere. Didn`t have enough power and was not nimble at all. I expected a whole lot more from GM. After all it was $40k. I am in the market for a midsize suv for my wife, I test drove a Honda Pilot and it put the trailblazer to shame for $10k less. It`s a shame I have to go to a import car company for a better midsize suv. What`s GM thinking? I tried to stay loyal but can`t justify paying that much for that little.

have you tried the saturn vue its belived to have a honda engine but the name is not at all on the car not even the engine and guess where that engine came from???.... yea the pilot I think people need to see the full spectrum of things before they judge I think GM is great but not all there cars are awesome and the same would go for imports I own a 91 caprice with 203,000 thousand miles on it ..drive train all original as well 1 experence should not influence the way you think about any car company if the cars suxs then the company dies why is GM still alive?? if imports sux why are they still alive???? the cars have to be good in order to stay in competition plain and simple

Owned many excellent GM cars and trucks over the years. Don't know of any other make that looks, drives, performs as well for the money. However, our last Blazer will be our last new GM vehicle. Developed an internal coolant leak at 12K miles. Two dealers later it and the only repair provided under warranty was the cooling system sealer tabs from GM. Sawdust. Never seen such a level of incompetence in dealer service. We purchased this new with an optional 6/60 warranty - wish I hadn't since I could now get it fixed right and not worry about voiding the warranty. Real mess. Lesson learned.

as far as dealer service in my opinion they try to make the most money out of you and do a poor job so people can keep coming back

as far as dealer service in my opinion they try to make the most money out of you and do a poor job so people can keep coming back
It's a shame that a bad dealer experience can break a manufacturer's reputation.

The problem is that the manufacturers really view the dealers as their customers, not the end consumer. They sell to the dealers and they try to keep the dealers happy.
Part of the problem is that GM is not controlling or correcting the bad dealers.

in the long run that theoy or fact can hurt an automaker big time man that just blows major ass air up the consumers and that goes for ALL automakers not just Gm... to bad we dont live in a perfect world where cars can last forever and ever and all you have to do is just drive

You guys who are complaining about your Sentras and Grand Ams having problems,before you buy it you got to take into consideration...there cheap,bottom of the line automobiles.Thats why there so cheap.You can almost say there made to have problems.There built with poor materials and thats why you pay so little for them.You want a trouble free car,be prepared to have your wallet emptied.Were talking Mercedes Benz,Cadillac, and Audi just to name a few.Those cars are pretty much problem free until they get old.But like I said,you spend 18 grand for a new Grand Am or even less for a Sentra or Cavilier or Corolla,you can't expect the car to be touble free.Its going to have many problems.Thats why there cheap.

Might want to talk to a couple Caddy owners about this too. Rear main oil seal leaking, looking at 3 - 4000 dollars to remove engine. Engine destroying coolant leak, 7000 dollars for a new engine. Only difference between the low cost GM cars and the high dollar machines might be the cost of the repairs. I only know what I've seen, no expert here.

Thats one Cadillac.I didnt say there all going to be flawless.I AM a Cadillac owner.Have been since I have been able to drive,and thats all my family owned when I was a kid.There great cars.How old is your Cadillac?Year and mileage?

man I love cadillac

Might want to talk to a couple Caddy owners about this too. Rear main oil seal leaking, looking at 3 - 4000 dollars to remove engine. Engine destroying coolant leak, 7000 dollars for a new engine. Only difference between the low cost GM cars and the high dollar machines might be the cost of the repairs. I only know what I've seen, no expert here.
I like Caddys too, but you are correct. An expensive car is NO guarentee of a reliable car. There are some reliable Caddys and there are some truly steaming piles. Fortunately they all seem to be good these days.

It's not just Caddy, either My BMW and my friends 2 Audis all have been unreliable and viciously expensive to repair.

It's posts like these I see everywhere that affirm my opinion that I will NEVER buy an american car.

I am a guy who is partial to Japanese cars. The first car I ever had was a 1986 Toyota Corolla with a manual transmission. The thing is still alive and kicking...the body has rotted out, but I never had any mechanical problems with it. Change the oil, replace the timing belt every 100,000 km, and replace the clutch as needed.

I went looking for a replacement vehical this fall. Japenese cars are great, but expensive. I was looking at buying a used Honda or Toyota. Pricy indeed... For costs sake I got myself a 2003 crown victoria police interceptor. With the ford I got heavy duty everything on a fullsized luxury car. I paid about half the price of some late 98-2000 Hondas and Toyotas and got twice the car.

Domestic cars are pretty good for people who don't have the initial investment to afford an import.

Long live the imports, and I pray that my domestic holds together. :smokin:

Paul

That sounds like some car, Paul. At least nobody will pass you on the highway. They are very reliable, but if its a decomissioned cop car, its got about a half zillion miles of ticked-off officers driving it with an "its not my car" attitude.

Hopefully you got a new one; it will last a long time.

I'm so glad to see this topic...saves me the trouble of having to start it :biggrin: . I bought a Century 2000 earlier this year, and suffice it to say it is the first and LAST GM product that I will buy. I can't say that I hate American cars, because I owned an Intrepid that went to 177,301 miles, and I don't really have any experience with Ford. But after this car I'm convinced of several things.
1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars.
2) Not only this, but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems.
3) I get the impression from GM that they will try to fix your car once, and if that doesn't work, then screw you, stay away.

My mom drives an Odyssey, and her transmision went at 80,000 miles...way too soon. But it was replaced, with a brand new one, at no cost to her. The service was excellent. Honda really stands behind their products -- it shows that they know when they've made mistakes (as many Odysseys were recalled for tranny problesms) and stand behind their customers.

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

I'm 22 years old, at the beginning of my car buying career, and have already written off any GM product. I know there are plenty others like me. GM can't build/fix cars, and they can't satisfy their customers. No wonder they're losing market share, I hope Toyota crushes them :iceslolan .

1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars

What makes you say this...give examples

but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems
Dealers are independantly owner franchises...did you check to see if the dealer has met its GM training requirements.
What were the problems you were having? What were the repairs?

I get the impression from GM that they will try to fix your car once, and if that doesn't work, then screw you, stay away.

Give us an example

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

What were the problems? Did they offer you the choice of a repair or replacement?
Why should they recall the transmission?
Why should they help you out? You purchased a 3-4 year old car with a questionable service history


No wonder they're losing market share, I hope Toyota crushes them

Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

Not quite, but they have had some combined ventures. Consider that At $136.1 billion, Toyota's market value exceeds those of Renault, Volkswagen, DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM combined.

1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars

What makes you say this...give examples

but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems
Dealers are independantly owner franchises...did you check to see if the dealer has met its GM training requirements.
What were the problems you were having? What were the repairs?



Give us an example

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

What were the problems? Did they offer you the choice of a repair or replacement?
Why should they recall the transmission?
Why should they help you out? You purchased a 3-4 year old car with a questionable service history




Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

Okay I'll give you my story. Yes, I bought this car used with 52,000 miles. Clean car, clean carfax history. Being used, I didn't expect it to be "problem free", however, I didn't bargain for what I got. When I bought the car, the alignment was off -- it's used, so whatever. I took it in to a GM dealership for an alignment. The wheel, however, was still cocked to the left after the alignment -- regardless of whether or not there was road crown. I took it back to the dealer and described the problem and inquired if this was normal for Buicks, as the only other car I've owned was an Intrepid, and the steering wheel was always "straight" so to speak, when I was not turning. Well, some mechanic said that the steering wheel should not be like that and would correct the problem. So he did, but still, the steering wheel is crooked. I decided that this was irritating at worst and would probably do no mechanical damage to the car itself, so I decided to give.

Strike 1 -- GM can't get the steering wheels straight on their cars? Aren't alignments basic services? That's pretty bad.

The power window motor burned out on the driver's side at 59,000 miles. For comparison, the auto window motors didn't go on my Dodge until 135,000 miles. Again, discouraging.

Transmission problems. While accelerating quickly (i.e. merging on an interstate) the vehicle started to shudder. That same day, the car slammed gears when upshifting, I was kind of afraid to drive it. This was at night, and my reliable GM service department was closed. So I took the vehicle in the next day. Dealer ran a diagnostic on the car...bad PC Solenoid valve. Apparently, there is a TSB on the 4T65E transmission for this issue. Cost $615.00 (Really glad I have that warranty!) But the car wasn't right even after this. No, couldn't be...my ultradrive shifted way smoother than this. I thought to myself "Goddammit." The problem was that the car still shifted kind of harshly on up-shifts. I say "kind of" because it wasn't as bad as the night it really slammed gears. The upshifts shudder worse when the car has warmed up. Many owners, if you go to the Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick forums have reported the same problems with their 4T65E equipped vehicles (this is why I say GM can't engineer cars, there seem to be many owners who have the same problem).

I planned on bringing it back...but not on a tow truck. I was driving, making a turn, going maybe 10 mph. The car began vibrating and making a grinding noise...coming from the engine area :( . I pressed the brakes, but the car kept bucking. I STOOD on the brakes, and finally the car came to a halt. Pulling it off to the shoulder was difficult, because turning the wheel was like steering through cement. So the car was stalled. I restarted it, put it in gear, and it died again. I did this several times, to no avail. So I had the piece towed. This was around midnight, so I dropped the keys off at the dealer overnight. Two days later I hear from the dealer. "We can't find anything wrong with your car." Yeah, now I'm irate. I go to the dealer. They said when they started it in the morning it stalled once, but then they restarted it and it didn't do it again. I was livid. I explained that I had just had work done on the transmission and wanted it fixed. The top dog over the sevice department (who was at least humble) explained that the car didn't "throw" any codes, so they could not work on it. I told him how awful I thought this car was. He apologized, but other than that didn't seem to care.

So now I have this car which may or may not make it from point A to B. Oh, but don't worry, there's nothing wrong with it.

That's my story. My grandpa had a LeSabre a while ago that went through four transmissions...I thought things had changed at GM, but I guess not. My dad's 2005 Envoy has had tranny issues right off the showroom floor.

Yes, this car was used, but it was well maintained. No car in this day and age should have these problems (transmission) at this mileage. Reading all of these posts, there must be a lot of cars with this flaw. Has GM stopped using a yestertech four speed auto with problems? No.

Yes, I bought a warranty, good thing. When the warranty is up, this car is gone. I'm just so disappointed. I was told that Buick was a quality car line, but I no longer believe that for a second. It's discouraging to know that everyone around you has a more reliable car than you, as well.

Dude your car is a lemon.Every manufacturer has them.Some people are unlucky and get them.That doesn't make the manufacturer junk.Buicks are a great line of vehicles.You just got a lemon.If your trying to convince me that GM's are junk,it isn't working.Owned them all my life.Ive never gotten a lemon.My 1990 winter beater Cadillac has almost 400,000 miles and is problem free.I bought it used of my dad,whom never had a problem.Your car is also used.Did you check carfax before you bought it?It could have at one time been in an accident.Which would affect your allignment,brakes,tranny,and many other things if not properly repaired.GM's are great cars my friend.By the way,not all mechanics can fix cars.Dealer or not.When it comes to fixing a car it all depends on who you go to.If your car is having the problems that you say it is and your dealer mechanic tells you that he can't find anything wrong with the car,then take the hint...your dealer mechanic may very well be a mental retard.Id try taking it to someone else.Just because your a mechanic at a dealership doesn't mean your mechanically brilliant.

Im shocked about your Dodge.Know several people that own them and do nothing but bitch about what a POS theirs is.A guy that I work with has an '03 Town and Country...on its fourth transmission.Older brother works at a Chrysler dealership.He went out with a customer on a test drive in a '05 Cherokee,got back to the dealership in a flatbed.Tranny went in a Mobile Station parking lot.Neighbor,'01 Intrepid,engine gone at 40,000 miles.Brother says new 300's are in all the time for new AC compressors.They refuse to make a recall on the part.My point here,don't brag about your Dodge.You probably bought that used to no?

And warning,whatever you do,stay away from Ford...

Strike 1 -- GM can't get the steering wheels straight on their cars? Aren't alignments basic services? That's pretty bad

It wasn't GMs fault that the steering wheel wasn't straight.
You took your vehicle in for an alignment. part of any techs diagnosis and conformation of repair is to test drive the vehicle before and after the repair. If the vehicle was test driven after the repair, the tech would have noticed that the wheel was off center and should have corrected the condition before you got your vehicle back.
You should not have given in but demanded that your vehicle be returned to you in a repaired condition or a refund for work that was not properly done.

Transmission problems. While accelerating quickly (i.e. merging on an interstate) the vehicle started to shudder. That same day, the car slammed gears when upshifting, I was kind of afraid to drive it. This was at night, and my reliable GM service department was closed. So I took the vehicle in the next day. Dealer ran a diagnostic on the car...bad PC Solenoid valve. Apparently, there is a TSB on the 4T65E transmission for this issue. Cost $615.00 (Really glad I have that warranty!) But the car wasn't right even after this.

Yes there is a TSB on this concern. Als once a repair is done to the trans, the tech should have reset the trans adapts. Once again the vehicle should have been roadtested to confirm repairs


Many owners, if you go to the Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick forums have reported the same problems with their 4T65E equipped vehicles (this is why I say GM can't engineer cars, there seem to be many owners who have the same problem).

Misery loves company! You will find more people will complain about something then will give praise...a ratio of about 14 to 1
As many 4t60 and 4t65 transmissions that have been built over the years, I see a small number complaining.


I planned on bringing it back...but not on a tow truck. I was driving, making a turn, going maybe 10 mph. The car began vibrating and making a grinding noise...coming from the engine area . I pressed the brakes, but the car kept bucking. I STOOD on the brakes, and finally the car came to a halt. Pulling it off to the shoulder was difficult, because turning the wheel was like steering through cement. So the car was stalled. I restarted it, put it in gear, and it died again. I did this several times, to no avail. So I had the piece towed. This was around midnight, so I dropped the keys off at the dealer overnight. Two days later I hear from the dealer. "We can't find anything wrong with your car." Yeah, now I'm irate. I go to the dealer. They said when they started it in the morning it stalled once, but then they restarted it and it didn't do it again. I was livid. I explained that I had just had work done on the transmission and wanted it fixed. The top dog over the sevice department (who was at least humble) explained that the car didn't "throw" any codes, so they could not work on it. I told him how awful I thought this car was. He apologized, but other than that didn't seem to care.

A vehicle doesn't have to set a code to have something wrong with it. Sometimes it takes a little listening to the customer, training and experiance to know where to look. From what you described I would say that the TCC stuck and caused the stall problem (kind of like coming to a stop in a manual trans car and not egaging the clutch)
This could be caused by a sticking solenoid or dirt in the valve body.
Once again this is a problem on the dealer level.

Yes, this car was used, but it was well maintained. No car in this day and age should have these problems (transmission) at this mileage. Reading all of these posts, there must be a lot of cars with this flaw. Has GM stopped using a yestertech four speed auto with problems? No.

Do you have the maintence records to prove that?
A car is a piece of machinery made by human hands..there is the possibility that it will break at some time (sooner or later)
The 4t60 and 4t65 transmissions have been around since the 80s (they were called the TH125C)

You just got a lemon
No what he got was a used car with a questionable past. Carfax only shows major concerns with a vehicle (and they miss some of those)

I guess my point is this:
Buying a used car is a crap shoot, I agree My Dodge had 108,000 miles when I got it, so I thought that the Buick, with 53,000 miles, would be sturdy (2000 Century, recommended by CR, plus the Rental Regal was highly rated recently). Now look at this scenario:
I owned a car from manufacturer A. This car did not have problems until 135,000 miles when the power window motors went out. It had more problems down the road in the 140,000s-170,000s, however when I paid for repairs that was it, I had no more problems with those parts or the car.

I own a car from manufacturer B. This car had severe problems at 59,000 miles. Despite repairs, these same parts seem to still have problems.

Now, I know GMMerlin and Handofdoom -- you two are obviously GM fans. That aside, on the face of my scenario, wouldn't it be logical to say, don't buy another car from manufacturer B, when clearly I've had better luck from another manufacturer?

That said luck plays an interseting role in brand loyalty. GMMerlin and handofdoom obviously have fantastic GM products. My family, not so. Grandpa going through four transmissions on 1980s LeSabre, my Century, Dad's Envoy has tranny issues off the showroom floor, dad's Phoenix had rusted through (literally, you could see the road through the floorboard :uhoh:) after only 8 years, Grandma's Chevette...well, I don't have the time, same goes for my mom's Vega and other grandma's Citation.

My family has good luck with Chrysler products. Dad's Durango is a beast, and great off-road, too.

I also have a question for GMMerlin and Handofdoom: Would either of you take any GM product over any other car? Are you blindly loyal to GM? Just curious, it's nothing personal...I just don't know of many people who only buy from one manufacturer. I like Chrysler products, and while there's a good chance I'll buy another one, they are not the only manufacturer I will buy from.

I also have a question for GMMerlin and Handofdoom: Would either of you take any GM product over any other car? Are you blindly loyal to GM? Just curious, it's nothing personal...I just don't know of many people who only buy from one manufacturer. I like Chrysler products, and while there's a good chance I'll buy another one, they are not the only manufacturer I will buy from.

I have worked for a GM dealer for 22 years...And I will still purchase their products..that says alot right there about the quality.
If I thought they were junk don't you think I would be driving something else?
Some of "car problems" are mental...let me explain
My Dad is a hard core Ford man..that is all he will buy. Before he retired, his company gave him cars to drive..all Chevrolets..he always complained that they had nothing but problems..mean while his Ford was in the shop so much even the techs knew me by name (I was 8,9,10 years old)..but that was a great car in his eyes.
Does GM have some problems...I would be an idiot if I said no...but a majority of the problems are at the dealer level.
Dealers are losing experianced techs faster than they can replace them. it takes a tremendous amout of time and money to train a new tech. To save money, dealers are letting techs learn the job while they work (trial and error)..this means there is a good chance that your vehicle will not be repaired to your satisfaction.
Because some dealers don't meet training requirements, they are not allowed to extend things like courtesy warranty extensions to customers who have concerns shortly after the warranty period expires.
This boils down to a senerio where the customer is not satisfied with the service and most likely will not come back....
Where I work we carry a 200% training score and run around a 85-90% customer satisfaction score (we too have some inexperianced people working with us)..the dealer across town runs a 40% training and a 50% customer satisfaction score......where would you take your vehicle?

Hey GMMerlin, thanks for the inside scoop on why dealers have service problems. But question -- do you know if there is any particular reason why so many of the experienced techs are leaving? Retirement, better job offers? When you say GM is cutting costs by having the techs train by trial and error on the job, I believe it. Of course, if GM is doing this, then I bet other car manufacturers are as well. Hell, I don't even work in the automotive industry (any longer) and I can see this sort of thing where new people get hired, and are told, "this is your job, do it." It's ashame...causes problems for customers and other employees.

Hey GMMerlin, thanks for the inside scoop on why dealers have service problems. But question -- do you know if there is any particular reason why so many of the experienced techs are leaving? Retirement, better job offers? When you say GM is cutting costs by having the techs train by trial and error on the job, I believe it. Of course, if GM is doing this, then I bet other car manufacturers are as well. Hell, I don't even work in the automotive industry (any longer) and I can see this sort of thing where new people get hired, and are told, "this is your job, do it." It's ashame...causes problems for customers and other employees.

Why are we leaving? lack of respect, cuts in warranty times, the high cost of tools, injuries, cuts in maintence services..just getting fed up with the BS to name a few.
GM is not the one cutting costs with training..the dealers are charged a flat fee every month to cover training..the dealer is not pushing the training because (in their eyes) it takes away from shop productivity..the loss in training expense is made up for by profit.
techs are not going for training because the guys who are trained get the shit work while they get the gravy.
What a lot of people don't understand is the cost involved in being a tech..usual layout for tools runs 20-70k (tools are not supplied by the dealer)
GM cuts warranty times to the bone and pays little to nothing for diagnosis.
Lack of respect from the public...you see it right here on AF
Lack of respect from the dealer....techs are a dime a dozen..we are uneducated monkeys
Injuries..22 years of this has left me with a sore back, 2 bad knees, deformed hands and who knows what I have breathed in for the last 22 years.
I could rant on for hours.

GM definatly has some issiues with quality and reliability of their cars. But they do make great SUVs (Escalade, Tahoe, Denali) My mom use to drive a 2003 Trailblazer and had no problems with it at all. Cadilacs are great cars too. Its just their low end cheap cars that you should stay away from. just my :2cents:

Buy used

Actually buying used is not a bad deal. Save 50% on a two year old low mileage car that has had the initial defects fixed, someone else had the nightmare of getting the service department do the warranty repairs. Still get a very decent car if you shop smart and the vehicle would probably look like new too. It's a shame though, the American Dream is a new car and a house in the country or something like that, but these days that new car sure can be a nightmare. We've been buying new GM since 1977, our next will be a non-GM or a used one for sure. That's a radical departure for me.

I agree with GM is a Sh*t Company. I have a 2003 Chevy Cav. LS. The car runs Great, get good Gas Mileage, Great with Vision. I change the oil every 7000 miles as GM States. I use only Syn. oils( Amsoil, Mobil 1). The last oil change( 72,345 Miles) I notice White specs in the oil. Oil have a Light Choc Milk look to it.( I'm thinking Head Gasket) I called the dealer where I bought the car and asked if the Head GAsket is under Warrenty. He said Yes. ( I brought the extended Warrrenty for up to 120,000 miles.) He then Said I'm not under warrenty because They have not serviced the car. I told him I do all the Servicing. That is not good enought. Screw them, I'll buy a Toyota or Honda or Hyundi.

Seems like any excuse they can come up with to refuse a repair, they'll use it. Consider that dealer servicing would have nothing to do with a head gasket, and the coolant was not due for changing at this point.

i'm a new member, and i found this thread kind of funny... i used to be a finance guy at a huge gm dealership here in k.c. (i quit i figured the bad karma was bound to get me sooner or later)... anyway yes it is true gm cars suck... now the trucks are a differant thing. what people need to realize is that gm makes the vast majority of their money from truck sales, but due to CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) laws they need to sell fuel efficient vehicles i.e. cars. they are a means to an end... that being said, i own a brand new pontiac, but you can bet your butt i also bought an extended warranty (yes they really do pay off). the way i look at it, any idiot knows a honda will generaly be more reliable than a pontiac, but they also cost considerably more (especially with the gms thing they're doing now) it's a total cost thing pontiac with warranty < honda....

stinky 2000 what kind of extended warranty did you buy... i might know someone.

GM is a piece of shit period. No quality. Look at the corvettes interior for example, fucking ugly. Gm sucks!

I don't care for a lot of their cars, but they are improving.

check here for the new 2005 Corvette Z06

New Z06 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=420611)

check here for the new Chevrolet Cobalt

New Cobalt (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=406056)

The new Cobalt has won two races in Grand-Am Cup

check here

New Cobalt wins (http://grandamerican.com/News/Article.asp?ID=4476)

Pontiac won the 24 Hours of Daytona this year.

check here

24 Hours of Daytona (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=406051)

Two factory-backed Corvette C6-Rs went 1-2 at the 24 Hours of Le Mans this year despite the best efforts from two factory-backed Aston Martin DBR9s, one Ferrari 575 GTC, and several Ferrari 550s.

check here

Corvette racing (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=421913)

Check here for the 2006 Pontiac Solstice

New Pontiac Solstice (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=377526&page=1)

The 2005 Saturn Aura concept shows what is to come.

check here

New Saturn concept (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3191622)

check here for the 2007 Saturn Sky

New Saturn (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379645)

GM's 4.2 liter 275 hp I-6 has been one of Ward's ten best engines since 2002.

check here

4.2 liter I-6 (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/12/15/304690.html)

check here for the 2006 Cadillac STS-V

New Cadillac (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379966)

Yeah... American cars sure do sux

Buy European/Asian

How does a Duesenberg suck?

check here for Duesenbergs

Made in the USA (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=380174&page=1)

GM cannot build, nor engineer cars.

So GM can't build the 2006 Corvette Z06 nor engineer it?

Please check here

New Corvette Z06 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3192081)

Now who on this good green earth in the middle class would buy one of those cars for a daily driver?

What car?

2005 Corvette Z06 or a Duesenberg

GM is crap....even the new cars...seats are "like a rock" and...just fall apart. The other day a newer cadillac catera drove by me while i was filling up my truck, and the sounds coming from it, sheesh. And my dads 05 colorado, it sprung a leak in the 4x4 thing, and anyways, leaked and....my dad used the 4x4 and..wrecked at, and gm wouldnt repair it, it costed my dad a little over a k.............sheesh..................... gm.....

Duesenburgs are awesome!

i my self am a huge GM fan, i have a 92 pontiac bonny thats i gotta admit really crappy on the out side, but for a 92, it runs incredibly well, i think every one here needs to lighten up!, thats what think

lets say
2003 dodge neon srt-4
0-30: 2.3
0-120: 20

vs.
2003 Honda s2000
0-30: 2.3
0-120: 26.5


i got this from carstats.com, they only had the 0-30and 0-120 for the s2000, so thats alli got for the neon, and it looks like a GM came out in front of the honda!

say any thing yopu want this is what i found and im stickin to it! :iceslolan