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Ford 427 SOHC VS the 426 Hemi


carbmustang302
01-15-2004, 01:01 PM
Well I was reading the tread on the hemi vs the 454 chev, and everyone was saying the 427 sohc fomoco was not a production motor or option in a production vehilcle, heres a link

http://www.me.mtu.edu/~prater/galaxie.html

to prove that it was a factory produced motor and better yet that it was reliable and therefore would stomp on the NOT SO MIGHTY HEMI, the hemi was a powerfull motor but had nowhere the equivilant power to the 427 sohc which was fomoco rated at 616hp@7500rpm with a single 4 barrel carb and 658hp@7500rpm with 2 4 barrel carbs, and the so called elephant hemi produced a whopping 425hp and 450ft lbs tq, heres a link

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/dyno-test.html

http://www.426-hemi.com/hemi/info/tech/426/specs.htm

So if you still want to debate that ford was not upto the challenge of racing engines back then and in the present, I am just a post away

This is just my opinion on the debate, and I`m sure evryone has there own opinion, but I am just stating the obvious and if you don`t understand that, then no more needs to be said.

By the way I am in know way bashing Mopar or Chev I am just tired of fords name always getting bashed when they have produced so great engines and vehicles just as mopar and chev have.

I apologize for making it sound like I was bashing, I was just venting and got carried away with my typing, just tired of people bashing ford.

Neutrino
01-15-2004, 01:18 PM
your to use to driving a moparslowcar or a lowpower bowtie ....

By the way I am in know way bashing Mopar or Chev I am just tired of fords name always getting bashed when they have produced so great engines and vehicles just as mopar and chev have.


hmm...that looks like bashing to me...so future posts please keep it more proper

also do please use the edit button to avoid double posting

Have a nice day and thank you for posting with AF.

The management :)

Polygon
01-15-2004, 01:55 PM
Let me say right off that I am not bashing Ford. The Cammer was a good idea. However, that link does not say what years the Galaxie was produced with the Cammer. This leads me to believe that the engine was simply a dealer option meaning that you could order the car with that engine but it wouldn't come from the factory with one. The Cammer was NOT a production engine and if it was why would they only put it in a Galaxie? Like I said before, the Cammer was also not reliable. You know, they did make a DOHC Hemi that made over 900HP? It was a one off deal and the engine wasn't at all reliable. Overhead Cam technology was just too new for high power applications back then to be reliable. Also, the 426 Hemi runs a single 4-barrel carburetor and it is putting out well over the factory rated horsepower. They lied to keep insurance rates down, so give me a break, Ford and Chevy did it as well. If the Cammer was so much better and still reliable, why is the Hemi the only engine used in Top Fuel drag racing?

No question, I would take a Hemi any day over a Cammer. The Hemi, IMO, is better in every way.

On a side note, you were bashing Chrysler and Chevy, donít try to make it seem like you werenít. That is like me calling a Ford a fucked over rebuilt Dodge and saying I was giving Ford a compliment. :rolleyes:

carbmustang302
01-15-2004, 02:31 PM
Well if you did as much reasearch as mouthing off you would go into the site link above and see they did put the 427 sohc in cars like the mustang, cougar, galaxie, ect.. heres just one link.

http://www.me.mtu.edu/~prater/cammer.html

And as for ford being a rebuilt dodge, dodge could only wish to be half
as reliable and powerful as a ford, take a 50s and 60`s ford, they would start when a dog pi**ed on its wheel or a rain cloud was in the sky, try that with your mighty mopar

So until you do some research and open your eyes, dont knock what you don`t know about, I have driven in several hemi cudas\challengers and 427 sohc FACTORY installed galaxie as well as a 427 sohc mustang, all cars with 4 gears, and there is no comparo, the ford would walk all over the hemi in a race anyday of the week.

Polygon
01-15-2004, 03:59 PM
Good hell!

1. Screw you! I was not mouthing off. I was simply making a comparison with my opinion and some facts, the same damn thing you're guilty of with your first post. If anyone has been mouthing off here it has been you. If you don't want to hear contrasting opinions then I suggest you sign your ass off the Internet and never come back.

2. I never called a Ford a fucked over rebuilt Dodge. I used that statement to make a point. Why don't you go back and read my entire post instead of picking things out and reading only what you want to read.

3. The engine was NOT production. Ford will even tell you this. You could special order it to come in a car from the factory, but it was NOT a production engine. You could not get it in a car without ordering one with it. That is NOT production and that is why they couldn't use it in NASCAR as well as the reliability issues.

4. I never said the Hemi was more powerful. In fact the 426 Hemi is in the mid 500HP range, about 100HP less than the Cammer. You need to realize that it is a pushrod engine. Make it a SOHC and watch the power go way up.

The Cammer might have been a more powerful engine, but it was not a production engine, but you could get it special ordered from the factory. You need to learn the difference. Like I said before, if it is so much better, why was it not used in NASCAR or Top Fuel? I'll tell you why, it wasn't reliable and it wasnít a production engine.

Also, keep in mind that this is a discussion forum and other people are allowed to have their own opinion without being insulted. So stop being ignorant and chill out.

carbmustang302
01-15-2004, 04:18 PM
You would need to be the one who needs to chill out, and yes everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and my posts are my opinion, and being the cammers could be ordered from the dealership and were factory installed they are a PRODUCTION engine and did come with factory warrenty.

The reason nascar would not let them run was, 1. they had to much power and it was before they did alot with restrictor plates, 2. they`re technology was to far advanced and deemed unfair to the other auto makers.

As for reliabilitly issues, tell me one automaker who dont have a service center, they all breakdown they all have bugs, and no one company is in actuality better than another...

But if you want to make it fair, compair the 427 pushrod production motor to the 426 hemi, oh and wait the results are in, it still has more power than ur infamous hemi

This is a little FYI from a website

Though Ford sold the required number of units to homologate the design, the Cammer was prevented from running against the Chrysler hemi at Daytona in 1965 due to NASCAR rule changes. Many Cammers found their way into Mustangs running A/FX Factory Experimental drag racing.

syr74
01-15-2004, 05:32 PM
Okay, I knew the 427 SOHC versus 426 Hemi debate was coming. I also knew it was going to degrade into a pissing contest faster than either engine could hope to accelerate a go-kart to 60mph.

Okay, as for the Cammer being a "production" engine or not. Ford built more than enough cammers and offered them for sale that the engine can be rightly called a "production" engine. HOWEVER, and I think this is likely Polygon's point, many folks argue that the engine was never a "regular production" option in any Ford except for the 64-1/2 Galaxie. (Yes, that's right, not the 65 and 66, but very late in 64-1/2) And, I cannot comment on how many 64-1/2 Galaxies were built with this option, or even if any actually were. (BTW, take a picture. This may be only time that you see me pointing out that one of Polygon's posts has some merit.)

And no, I don't care to look into it any further to try and find out. I would have to guess this option was deleted pretty quickly when NASCAR gave Ford the big "nope" for an answer as to the Cammer's eligibility for NASCAR racing. To my knowledge this car is in the same category as the 67 X-code Mustangs and the Shelby Cobra Dragonsnake Stage III. You could conceivably get one, but nobody has ever produced an example proving that a car was ever actually built. If by chance you know somebody with a factory-line installed 427 SOHC 64-1/2 Galaxie might I advise early retirement for your buddy.

And, as for that NASCAR issue. Production numbers had nothing to do with the Cammer's ineligbility for NASCAR. Ford was more than happy to produce the required number of Cammers for NASCAR racing eligibility. But, NASCAR said "You can't race that" so there was no point in Ford building a lot more of it. Pretty simple.

Generally speaking, Holman and Moody installed 427 SOHC engines in the 65 and 66 Galaxies are "factory" or "production" engines. Since, by that time, Holman and Moody was basically just Ford's racing arm and you could indeed "order" the car that way. H&M then installed the motor before the car ever saw a dealership lot. (This really isn't much different than how ASC modifies Ram Air T/A's. And, if those cars aren't production then neither are the 4th gen Ram Air f-bodies.)

However, as I mentioned earlier a lot of people will argue with you about "regular production" versus just "production" and this is the case with these cars. My personal opinion, who cares. It is really all just splitting hairs.

Ford also did the above mentioned with some 427 SOHC Falcon factory race cars. However, the Falcon's were race cars just like the Super Stock Dodge Darts, and were never really intended for street use.

As I have said before in other threads, the 427 SOHC left drag racing when rules prohibited that engine from competing plain and simple. Some racers felt it was reliable, some did not. The engine was indeed successful during it's drag racing tour of duty, as was it's OHV cousin. The SOHC Ford was also the first engine to break the 200mph barrier through the 1/4 in a rail.

Chrysler's prototype DOHC Hemi engine has, at times, been rumoured to have made 800-900hp. But, nothing has ever been leaked from Dodge then or now that in any way shape or form proves this. We now know that the 427SOHC is generally in the 650hp (as it was then rated) neighborhood by todays standards. That means it was about 100hp or more under-rated by that days standards which wouldn't make the 800hp claims on the Hemi too outrageous. And, as the DOHC Mopar was strictly a prototype, there is no telling how close to a "production" engine those specs were. In the same range as the 427SOHC would have been a safe bet IMO.

The DOHC's of the Mopar offered no real advantage as they still only actuated two valves per cylinder. Having a seperate camshaft for intake and exhaust does offer improved cam specs. But, the offset in reciprocating valvetrain mass takes away that advantage. DOHC's need 4+ valves to offer a real advantage over SOHC's.

The SOHC engine was certainly a much rarer piece than the Hemi Mopar, and the Mopar is likely more "fairly" compared in the area of power to the 427 medium and high riser, 428CJ/SCJ, and 429CJ/SCJ Fords. I personally feel that the 427, 428, and 429's all did quite nicely on the street back in the day, and compare to the Hemi just fine. And, every engine mentioned did very well indeed on the track in one form or another.

Just as Polygon feels that the Hemi was superior to the Ford in every way. I, personally, believe that the 427 Ford's in SOHC and OHV were better than the Hemi. I am sure as hell no Mopar guy, and no big Chrysler Hemi fan either. But, to come in here bashing with no provocation whatsoever is just asking for trouble. At least wait until provoked....lol

Let the pissing contest resume.

Polygon
01-15-2004, 06:28 PM
Yes take a picture, because I never thought I'd be posting this syr74. I read your entire post and I want to thank you for actually reading mine and understanding my point. I agree with your post fully and would also like to thank you for being civil about it.

I want to say that I was never trying to bash the Cammer. Everybody that has been here long enough knows that I am a Mopar fan and I love the Hemi. I think that the Cammer is one of the better engines built, I just feel the Hemi was better. The Cammer was a better performer and I only wish that there was a SOHC Hemi to compare with. I just heard from guys that drag raced them that they loved the Cammer but used the Hemi because it was more reliable. It is just a matter of preference.

Like I said. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest but you're being too damned defensive carbmustang302. Youíre attacking me simply because I have a contrasting opinion. I think you're ignorant and that you need to wise up. Syr74, while I don't always agree with him, makes his point and makes it well with information to back it. He also is civil about his posts and actually reads their entire post and understands what they are trying to say. Learn from his example.

carbmustang302
01-15-2004, 07:55 PM
Well I can see that I cant get my point across, so I will stop trying, The 427 was an option for many ford from 64-67 and was put in many cars but know one seems to agnolage that.

I was not trying to be ignorant or bios towards anyone, so if you took offense to my opinion, sorry for the mistake.

syr74
01-15-2004, 08:49 PM
Well I can see that I cant get my point across, so I will stop trying, The 427 was an option for many ford from 64-67 and was put in many cars but know one seems to agnolage that.

I was not trying to be ignorant or bios towards anyone, so if you took offense to my opinion, sorry for the mistake.

Hey man, I think I understood what you were trying to say just fine. You were in the comparisons forum standing up for your favorite brand, FoMoCO, a position I find myself in from time to time. I was just trying to help you find a better way to say it.

I gave you some info on the Cammer that you may or may not have known. The reason I posted those facts is because not many people know them and generally I like to think this forum can from time to time help people learn a little bit. If you noticed, I even pointed out that the 64-1/2 Galaxie technically offered the Cammer as a factory option, and that the 65-66 Galaxie's offered it as well.

Although, people argue from time to time wether the 65-66 was a "regular production" offering as Ford had a Ford racing garage shoehorn the thing in there. I believe I made my position that I consider it a "production" option fairly obvious. But, I also pointed out why some disagree (including Polygon). You could have ordered a full size Mercury this way as well, but I did not mention it because I have never heard of one being done.

There are a LOT of different definations as to just what makes a car a "production" car. And, there are a lot of little sub categories (production, regular production) to debate over as well. Every now and again somebody is going to take you to task on something, debate with knowledge as much as possible. Flaming just limits the number of people you can "acquire" knowledge from. Dont get me wrong, you WILL be in your fair share of unfriendly arguments. And that is kind of my point, don't go out of your way to piss off the "other guys" as this happens often enough on its own.

Other than those previously mentioned Galaxies, and a few Falcons that were Ford's answer to the Super Stock Dodges, the Cammer ended up in nothing by Ford's hand to my knowledge. (Full blown race cars like AFX Mustangs not included in that statement) The main reason for that is simple, it just wouldn't fit in any of Ford's midsize cars without some major hacking. The thing was way too wide.

The Cammer was never an option on anything but a fullsize car, and damn few of them ever saw the streets period. I have little problem with this, as good things often are very rare.

Don't get worked up over things in here, it just ain't worth the stress. And, you aren't the only one in here willing to defend the blue oval. I just believe peaceful negotiations are preferable to full blown war...lol. Stick around, go easy on other folks, you may learn a lot of things you didn't know.

carbmustang302
01-15-2004, 09:09 PM
Thanks syr74, for the info and not taking sides, the galaxie I was reffering to riding in I believed to be a factory installed, but I wasnt born then, so I didnt see where it was put in, so I can not say it was or wasn`t the guy was told it was but we all know how people will say anything to sell a vehicle, as for the heated discussions about everything and anything, I hear ya I belong to many automotive forums, and I know what you mean, I am not trying to step on anyones feet, just dont like people bashing the blue oval.....

Neutrino
01-15-2004, 09:43 PM
Thanks syr74, for the info and not taking sides, the galaxie I was reffering to riding in I believed to be a factory installed, but I wasnt born then, so I didnt see where it was put in, so I can not say it was or wasn`t the guy was told it was but we all know how people will say anything to sell a vehicle, as for the heated discussions about everything and anything, I hear ya I belong to many automotive forums, and I know what you mean, I am not trying to step on anyones feet, just dont like people bashing the blue oval.....

you think ford its getting bashed....just hang around to see the dodge coments...they are far worse...especially the srt4

GTStang
01-16-2004, 03:01 AM
you think ford its getting bashed....just hang around to see the dodge coments...they are far worse...especially the srt4


Like I'm gonna cry for the SRT4. They are just gettin a small taste of the shit Mustang owners have put up with for years.

Neutrino
01-16-2004, 03:07 AM
Like I'm gonna cry for the SRT4. They are just gettin a small taste of the shit Mustang owners have put up with for years.


well i was talking about AF..dodge seems to be far more bashed around here than ford..at least from what i can see...i might be wrong :dunno:

GTStang
01-16-2004, 11:46 AM
I was talking about on AF. Dodge does get bashed unfairly at times but it doesn't compare to how many Mustang suck, Ford sucks, etc.., I see on here by idiots. And I'm talking about random noobs not good standing members who are respectful of all cars.

Polygon
01-16-2004, 02:28 PM
I was talking about on AF. Dodge does get bashed unfairly at times but it doesn't compare to how many Mustang suck, Ford sucks, etc.., I see on here by idiots. And I'm talking about random noobs not good standing members who are respectful of all cars.

I just think it is ignorance that Chevy, Ford, and Dodge guys have to deal with. I think the big three get plenty of crap around here that isn't deserved.

Kurtdg19
01-16-2004, 06:13 PM
I just think it is ignorance that Chevy, Ford, and Dodge guys have to deal with. I think the big three get plenty of crap around here that isn't deserved.

I'll second that. People love to hate the domestics. Generally speaking, all cars need a level of appreciation reguardless of where its built. Whether its a Mustang, or a Civic, they all influence new trends of products in the automobile industry.

72_R/T
01-21-2004, 12:25 AM
Polygon said it.
Mopar unrated the Hemi..
The Cammer isnt a Production engine.
And the two are in 2 completly different Classes..
Are you going to compare a Geo Metro to a Viper Next?

Corn Dog
01-21-2004, 11:16 PM
ok i'm a new guy on here first off, second i only bothered to read the first few of your posts so excuse me if i cover material that u two finally agreed on. Ok, to start i am a Ford guy, but the Cammer was not production, because in order for it to be production it has to be made in the vehicle themselves off the assembly line. And about the Cammer not being reliable, it was far from unreliable, and to correct you, the NHRA at the time this engine came around, 1965-1970 abouts, they were partial to Hemis, and that dodge complained bc they had actually had their asses handed to them, once they got beat the whole association pretty much banned them, but as far as legalities go, the cammer was perfectly legal in all aspects back then. Granted that the hemi is a great engine, and reliable, it is still true that the cammer was its only competition back in the day, and about that supposed hemi that put out 900 HP, tell me where u find that, and wether it was a project engine or actually for sale, bc that would most definetely be illegal. Theres my input, and like i said sorry for covering things already discussed if they were. And u want the Facts to back this stuff up, start investigating, bc i found them and so should you!

Neutrino
01-21-2004, 11:29 PM
welcome to AF...hope you enjoy your time here.



about the last part though
And u want the Facts to back this stuff up, start investigating,
bc i found them and so should you!

it would be nice if you would post links or references to your sources since this is a car forum and we are all here to learn more, and what better way to do that than by sharing

not to mention that by bringing proper references your point becomes that much more valid


:)

Corn Dog
01-22-2004, 01:16 PM
i guess that is true, i'll get them as soon as i can actually get my favorites back. thenwe'll see

Polygon
01-22-2004, 01:34 PM
Yes, because I would love to see some information about Chrysler bitching about the Cammer and getting it banned. As for the 900HP Hemi, it could be street legal, but the one I was referring to is just rumor and speculation. It was said to have been a project engine and only one was every built. I was never planned for production.

Kurtdg19
01-23-2004, 02:35 AM
Does anybody have an idea to which engine was pushing the most hp as a standard production model in the muscle era? Since just about every engine was underated, lets not throw in the 'claimed' manufacturer's rating because we all though how reliable those numbers are.

syr74
01-25-2004, 07:56 PM
Hey, as long as were on the topic of factory freaks.....Ford designed a 427ci, dual under-head cam, 3 valve per cylinder V-8 to put into the GT40 race cars back in the day. (heeeey, wasn't Chevy talking about doing something like this for a new smallblock once upon a time?) Only two were ever made, and only one of those was ever finished. However, the rules changed and limited displacement soon after development of the first two mules started and this engine became illegal and was therefore abondoned.

And as for the 900hp Hemi...I cannot verify the hp rating and tend to believe it is lower than that (think Ford Cammer type hp levels IMO), but the engine does exist. It is in some entusiast's garage on it's own engine "platform" with a radiator and full blown cooling system.

Why? Because the sucker runs, thats why. Only one in existence if I am correct. BTW, no I don't have a link and since I am a Ford guy I sure as HELL ain't looking for Mopar info. I just remember having read an article on it in Hot Rod or PHR several years back and the guy actually cranked it up for them.

Now there is an engine that needs to find it's way into a Superbird that has a non original Hemi in it.

Mercracer
02-26-2004, 08:22 PM
Hello All!
I am new to the board and thought that this would be a good time to chime in.
Regarding the SOHC 427 being a production option, that is absolutely not true. It never made it into a production car. This can be verified my contacting Kevin Marti at Marti Auto Works. He has exclusive rights to the Ford production database.
Sources in print start out with the Ford Master Parts Catalog which has ZERO reference to SOHC parts.
Pord Performance by Pat Ganahl states the fact that it was not a production option.
Hot Rod Magazine January 1965 Page 30 has an excellent article on the engine development.
December/January 1997 Musclecar Review Page 54 has a great article on the engine. It tells the story of the rise and problems trying to get it approved for Nascar.

http://www.wrljet.com/engines/427sohc.html is a web site with an engine description.

There is no reputable source which will state that it was ever a production engine.


Regarding comparing it to other engines, it was nearly unstoppable when it was set loose on the drag strip

QUOTE:
"This all changed in 1966 when Ford introduced its 427-cid Ford single overhead cam engine. Pete Robinson (above) won the NHRA World Finals with one in Top Fuel and "Dyno Don" Nicholson and "Fast Eddie" Schartman (right) enjoyed 85-percent win ratios in their revolutionary "flip-top" Mercury Comet Funny Cars.

In 1967, Connie Kalitta stormed Top Fuel with consecutive wins at the AHRA, NHRA, and NASCAR Winternationals. Hot on his heels was Don "the Snake" Prudhomme with a win in Lou Baney's Ford SOHC Top Fuel dragster at the NHRA Springnationals in Bristol, Tenn.
"

Corn Dog
05-09-2004, 06:02 PM
yes polygon the cammer was for racing, but it also didn't have any more problems than the 426 did, the only reason that dragsters use the hemi is that if your lucky enough to find a 427 Cammer, then you have quite the luck, considering that there were no more than 150 of them made, and they were made for only at the most 2 yrs, and ordered over the counter not many people knew about them. nothing against a hemi, i mean yea i'd love to have one myself but it deserves just as much credit as the hemi in power output. i was forutate to get to see a 427 at an auto show in a ford maverick, and it had balls. either way both are great engines that define "American Muscle".

Neutrino
05-09-2004, 06:18 PM
Thread is 3 months old. Please do not revive any more old treads.

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