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88 LeSabre won't start when cold


fribergb
01-13-2004, 02:54 PM
All,

Yes, it's old... but it runs great and starts like a champ when it's above 50 degrees... and I've already installed a heater in the garage but the weather can change pretty quick here in CO and I hate to be stranded....

It coughs and gags and backfires up through the air filter when it tries, and if I don't mind putting a year's worth of wear on the starter I can usually get it started after trying for ten minutes or so. But when it's warm it starts immediately!

Do any of you know what componant I would replace first to solve this? It already has a new fuel pump and the gas is clean... new alternator and new battery... new fuel filter...

Thanks much!

-Bryan

pcv
01-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Seems like the perimeters of one or more of your vehicle sensors is changing when the temperature drops. To get around it, I'd scan the vehicle when cold to determine which sensor is fault. I suspect the coolant sensor but I could be wrong.
Another thing could be that you may need is the basic, tune up.
Do you have spark and fuel when the vehicle refuses to start? If you have both, replace the spark plugs.
The temp over here is around -20C and vehicles have been towed due to no start and all my guys have been doing is dry the cylinders and plugs and start the vehicle.
Good Luck.

RABarrett
01-14-2004, 02:52 PM
This is likely an issue of fuel pressure. I recommend, under any circumstances, to have the problem properly diagnosed. Remembering that the fuel demand rises as temps drop, the fuel pressure issue would be the first place to look. If the vehicle has over 60,000 miles on the pump, it merely raises the probability of pump problems. Ray

buddytopdog
02-02-2004, 06:27 PM
I have 202,000 miles on my 3.8 motor and have the same problem. Slowly changing sensors. Crankshaft position sensor,fuel pressure regulator Egr valve, etc. Cleaned idle control motor. Could be coolant sensor. Replaced fuel pump and sending unit awhile ago. New fuel filter too. Have always used premium gas since 140,000 miles. I still get 25 mpg on the highway at 55 mph in Pennsylvania. Wouldn't start for a week. Changed two year old spark plug wires and is starting better but, not like it should. First start of the day, I tuen key off and on three times and then it will start. Also, have a new starter and oil sensor guage put on. Oil sensor lets fuel pump know there is pressure built up. Hope this helps. I plan on getting new coolant sensor next or another engine pretty darn soon.

1989Buickguy
02-03-2004, 07:11 AM
I had the same problem on my 89. Changed wires and plugs, now it's ok. Camshaft sensor is inoperative due to magnet falling out, but it runs ok. Starts right up in cold weather now.

RABarrett
02-03-2004, 08:16 AM
Something to consider here, guys, is the timing chain issue in these engines. These engines are prone to eating timing chains. As they wear, they become increasingly out of time. If the fuel pressures are up to par here, I suggest remembering this fact. You might possibly save the engine; some of them are interference. Ray

O.P
03-02-2004, 01:48 PM
I have the same problem and continue to battle it as we speak, I've replaced crank sensor, coolant sensor, fuel pressure regulator, plugs, wires, fuel pump and it still back fires thru the air filter on the first cold start of the day. After it starts the first time, it will runperfect. Until it cools off.

buickmastermind
10-10-2004, 11:08 PM
"This is likely an issue of fuel pressure. I recommend, under any circumstances, to have the problem properly diagnosed. Remembering that the fuel demand rises as temps drop, the fuel pressure issue would be the first place to look. If the vehicle has over 60,000 miles on the pump, it merely raises the probability of pump problems."
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Not a chance!

The issue is with the ignition/spark plugs and wires. Some ignition coils, when old or poor quality, fail to work under certain temperaturs.
Also, as was said before, the motor does have a timing chain issue, but that only applies to the 86-87 3.8l v6. The timing chains, when they would jump a notch, would make it so the valve heads hit on the cylinder heads, and get bent. That was the reason for the upgrade to the less powerful, less efficient 3800.

jwe124
10-11-2004, 04:57 PM
????????????????????????????????????????????
Not a chance!

The issue is with the ignition/spark plugs and wires. Some ignition coils, when old or poor quality, fail to work under certain temperaturs.
Also, as was said before, the motor does have a timing chain issue, but that only applies to the 86-87 3.8l v6. The timing chains, when they would jump a notch, would make it so the valve heads hit on the cylinder heads, and get bent. That was the reason for the upgrade to the less powerful, less efficient 3800.


Thank goodness for this message. My mom's 89 LeSabre exhibits the same problems in the winter time. My dad still swears up and down it's the fuel pump. Yet, he's changed it at least 5 times since we got the lemon in 1999. He still swears up and down it's the fuel pump since allegedly there was a faulty design causing a weak pressure, flooding and hard starting.

I knew it was something else because his explanation made no logical sense.

keepingitontheroad
11-09-2004, 10:54 AM
I have a '90 Lesabre with 211,000 miles. Exhibits the same problem, will not start when cold. Depending on how cold, it will either eventually start after cranking a while (spitting and coughing through the air filter) when mildly cold to it won't start at all untill the engine is heated up when really cold. Speaking of backfiring through the air filter, I actually blew a hole through the top of the air filter housing and had to replace. If I plug in the block heater it starts no problem, when its warm it starts no problem. Once the car is started it runs fine. Has anyone that has posted to this thread who has had this problem been able to solve. I have changed wires and plugs more than once.

keepingitontheroad
11-09-2004, 11:47 AM
I have a '90 Buick Lesabre with 211,000 mile with the same problem. If mildly cold, around freezing, will start after cranking for a while. The car coughs and backfires through the air filter while trying to start (in fact I actually blew a hole through the top of the air filter housing and had to replace). When cold the car will not start period, until the engine is warmed, either by plugging in the block heater or bringing inside to heated garage. When the weather is warm or the block heater has been plugged in it starts no problem and runs fine. I have replaced wires and plugs more than once. Has anyone with this problem who has posted here been able to solve?

buickmastermind
11-09-2004, 06:16 PM
Same thing I stated above about the coils. You also might want to make sure the battery has the correct voltage when cold. When it runs, is it smooth, or does the motor vibrate?

rustbucket
11-10-2004, 07:23 AM
Sounds to me like the spark timing. Anyone replace the cam sensor?

buickmastermind
11-10-2004, 09:00 AM
It isn't the cam sensor because the computer only uses the reading from it after the motor has warmed up.

rustbucket
11-10-2004, 10:38 AM
My manual says that below 400 rpm (cranking) the spark is controlled by the crank sensor and the ICM. Above 400 the ICM yeilds spark control over to the computer. It must use all the appropriate sensors to control the spark. If the cam sensor is goofy till warm up, it could cause the problem. I wouldnt rule it out.

buickmastermind
11-10-2004, 11:45 AM
Yes, the CRANK sensor is used, but not the CAM sensor. Two totally different sensors that are used to measure two totally different values don't perform the same operation. I would rule it out the CAM sensor because:
The cam sensor is only read by the computer above 400 rpm and below 1200, when the ICM is in Closed Loop Operation. That means that the motor has to be warmed up first before it uses the inputs from the cam sensor, the O2 sensor, and others that don't apply to mine that do to the newer ones.
A motor is usually going to idle at 1200 rpm for a few seconds when you start it cold. As the motor warms up, the idle slows down, until it reaches about 800 rpm. At that point, it begins to use the different sensors not used at startup. When the car has been driven for about 10 miles, the motor heats up more. Under this condition I have seen a 455ci v8 idle at just over 500 rpm, but never less.

keepingitontheroad
11-10-2004, 01:59 PM
Same thing I stated above about the coils. You also might want to make sure the battery has the correct voltage when cold. When it runs, is it smooth, or does the motor vibrate?

Sorry about the double post!!

Although I haven't actually measured I beleive the battery voltage is good when cold, I will test. When the vehicle runs it runs smooth. The only times it ran rough I was able to replace plugs or wires to correct. One note, it doesn't seem to take long after replacing the plugs that I need to replace again (6 months). The old plugs look fine but there will be a noticable improvment in how the car runs. I also seem to have replaced faulty ignition wires before they should have needed to. Having said that, replacing plugs and wires have never made the car start any better when cold. I've had this sypmtom for 5-6 years at least, just seems to have to be less and less cold for the car not to start.
When you talk about the ignition coil you are refering to just the coils and/or the ignition module?

Thanks

avatar307
11-10-2004, 02:21 PM
The coils are the little units mounted on top of the Ignition Control Module base. If your plugs are needing to be replaced that often to get the engine to run right, I'd expect at least one of the coil packs isn't putting out the needed voltage.

Since the engine is only having problems running when cold, and most of the sensors on the the engine are not monitored until the engine warms up, I would suggest checking the EGR valve. It should be open when the engine is cold to introduce hot exaust into the intake. This increases the efficency of the fuel/air mix.

If it is not opening, or the passage ways are blocked by carbon build up, this could definately be your problem. As it is a 1988, the EGR should be controlled by vacuum pressure alone, and the solinoid is likely not monitored. Thus, the engine assumes that below a certain engine temp the EGR will be open. If it is not, the engine would be sending the wrong varibles to fuel injectors and such.

As the EGR is most likely controlled by vacuum pressure genrated by the intake manifold, you should check all your vacuum lines for leaks and such. Depending on how the manifold is laid out, one vacuum leak can affect multiple systems simultaniously.

buickmastermind
11-10-2004, 09:06 PM
To my knowledge, the EGR valve is suppossed to be open only when the tranny is in gear, but that may be different for the 3800 than mine. I would also make sure that the O2 sensor is working correctly, but the main thing would be the coil(s).

keepingitontheroad
11-23-2004, 10:59 AM
Just wanted to thank Buickmatermind!!

I replaced the Ignition coil and the module (bought one from auto wreckers) and the difference in how the car ran was immediately noticable. I was able to start the car this morning (temp was couple degrees below zero overnight) no problem. Even at this temp in the past I had real problems starting if I could get it to start at all. It will be interesting to see how the car starts when it gets real cold (-30) as we get in the winter, here's hoping.
I will post a follow up later this winter.

Thanks again

avatar307
11-23-2004, 12:13 PM
*shudder* Everytime it drops below 0 F here, I have to buy a new battery. Oh well, doesn't cost me much more than the frustration. It's Texas after all... it doesn't drop below 0 but once every 5 years. LOL

Jed Rule
11-26-2004, 06:55 PM
I used to use starting fluid on my 88 when it was cold and then I found there is an up-dated PROM for 1988 that enriches the fuel mixture when cold. Check with your local dealer. Easy fix. Not too $$$

O.P
11-29-2004, 01:35 PM
I still havent fixed mine, has anyone fixed their problem?

keepingitontheroad
11-30-2004, 12:05 PM
I still havent fixed mine, has anyone fixed their problem?

I too had the same symptoms you described in your previous posting.

I took the advice of "Buickmaster" and replaced the ignition coil and ignition module (I have '90 lesabre 3.8). I got the coil and module from a wreckers for $90. At the same time I replaced plugs and ignition wires. My car is now starting great. Last night it was down to -7c (20F) started no problem. It would never have started before. Time will tell wether it will start as good when it gets real cold (I'm in Ottawa so we get -30 and lower in the winter).

Bottom line - so far the car is starting (and running) better than it has in 5-6 years.

O.P
12-01-2004, 09:22 AM
Keepingitontheroad, did you get any trouble codes before you fixed the problem?

keepingitontheroad
12-01-2004, 10:54 AM
I checked trouble codes several times and never had any!!

buickmastermind
12-01-2004, 11:14 AM
O.P, are you getting any? That might help resolve your problem if you did.

psycotic
12-21-2004, 06:32 PM
I'm having the same problem with my 88 lesabre. I've had the car for 5 years, and it was a graduation present from my grandparents. This car came from florida. Everytime it gets below 25 it starts really hard, under 10 it almost refuses to start. I've thought about a heater, but decided against it as i have no place to plug it in at work.

One of the guys at autozone told me that maybe the computer module was to blame as it came from florida and they may not include the programming for cold weather for the choke.

i changed the icm in july thinking that was the problem but now its december and it didn't help. i get good spark, fuel, and all the other junk. once started the car runs fine, but if sat for 8+ hours it doesn't want to start.

I'm wondering if i am not getting enough gas to the plugs. thats the only thing i can think of.
i'll check the coil pack.

sallisonbrown
12-21-2004, 06:43 PM
Sounds like you need new wires (and maybe new coil packs). I don't think GM has any compensation in the computer mods for area weather. Generally we just compensate by using different grade oils.

psycotic
12-22-2004, 11:33 AM
its actually got new wires and plugs. i get good spark on the coil pack. so idk.
is there a possibility that the computer uses the temperature sensor to determine the amount of fuel needed to start the car, if so maybe thats bad.

sallisonbrown
12-22-2004, 12:02 PM
its actually got new wires and plugs. i get good spark on the coil pack. so idk.
is there a possibility that the computer uses the temperature sensor to determine the amount of fuel needed to start the car, if so maybe thats bad.

Yes, I think the computer reads the input from the Temp Sensor to adjust the air/fuel mix. It could be faulty but I don't think so. Does the engine just crank and crank at normal speed (when trying to start at low temperature)? Or does it crank slowly? If it turns over normally, then it's probably related to fuel delivery or coil/spark output, if it turns over slowly look to the battery, starter or alternater. Reread all 30 of the previous posts to eleminate alot of guess work.

Have you tried some dry gas or switching to high test on these really cold days?

Steve

robertp124
12-26-2004, 11:44 PM
Thanks for the coil tip...
Every year for the last few my 89 LeSabre staopped starting when it got cold. It would turn over at regular speed, sound like it was going to start and then backfire through the air cleaner. It started about 3 years ago when I had to plug in the block heater at -25 or it would not start, a year later -20, this year -15.
- scanned, no codes
- wires were fine, spark was good, sensors all tested OK
I also noticed that in the summer and when it was warmed up it wasn't starting with the usual 2 seconds of cranking, I assumed it was just getting old.
Read your thread and picked up a new coil at UAP for $65.00. This morning it was -20 and the car would not start, changed the coils and it instantly started, no problems.

Thanks!

Bluthunder
02-01-2005, 02:09 PM
My 1991 Lesabre does not start when cold. This seems to be a common problem found in the coil pack. What is the difficulty in coil pack replacement? Can it be done under $100 if diy? The also "stutters" when accelerating from 55 mph to pass another car. Thanks for any help.

Go Illini beat the Spartans

buickmastermind
02-02-2005, 04:10 PM
I've only replace type 2 coil assemblies (three separate coils). You would be hard-pressed to get three good quality replacement coils for $100. There is a lot of good info in this thread, so read the previous posts if you have the time. Not difficult at all to change coils.

chevelleman
02-03-2005, 06:27 PM
my car used to do the same thing i have an 89 oldmobile eighty eight with the same vin C 3800 when you tried to start it up in the cold it would crank over fine and would fire and back fire but wouldn't start for a long time and once it was warmed up i was fine it turned out being the coil pack you can check to see if the coil pack is the problem on your cars by checking the resistance between the coils with the wire off the coil and the key off spec is from 10k to 13k of resistance when i checked mine my bottom two were around 12K but my top one was around 30k when cold out and would come down to around 20 after it was warmed up. i replaced the coil pack and no problems since it also runs better, sounds better, and gets better mileage good luck

jms92
12-28-2005, 06:26 PM
I have this exact bug on a 1990 Lasabre that I got up for my son. Car runs great all year long but now that it's cold, it won't start easy. Once the car starts, it runs and restarts just fine. I have no idea what was ever done to the car because the owner passed away. I put plugs into it today, for my first guess. Old ones probably were OK...?? I have wires that I haven't put in, was thinking wires for guess number 2..??? But after reading this I am leaning hard toward ignition coil. I was going to inspect the coil, but can't find it... Where is it located????? The ignition control module is the black box that the spark plug wires connect to, right??? Is the coil located around where the ignition control module is located????

Thanks in advance. This is a car that I don't want to put alot of money into. But its a great first car for a teenager.

birkey1956
12-30-2005, 09:49 AM
Hello folks. I have a 1989 that I got from my dad. It's in well maintained shape with 130,000 miles. Last winter it started fine. This winter it's starting exactly as discribed above. That's what brought me to this site! Glad I found it.
After a lot of reserch I figured it might be the coils or idle air contol valve. I started with the iac valve since I thought it would be cheaper. Wrong........... $87.00 at Napa. But so far it's starting! The same time I did this it has warmed up and hasn't gotton much below freezing.
If this dosen't fix it I'll try the coils.
I've also noticed a drop in fuel mileage since this symptom has come about.

These are great cars in my opinion. And I like the fact I have no payments!

jms92
01-25-2006, 06:13 AM
You guys are great!!! You saved me about $$$$$10,000. I was starting to worry that I may have to replace my son's 1990 LeSabre due to the hard starting when cold issue... I replaced the plugs with no luck, and have been waiting for it to get cold enough to continue trouble shooting. Well it cooled off some and we where still having hard starts. I went to Auto Zone and got a coil pack for $65, installed it, and that is the fix!!!!!! Thanks a bunch!!!! The old pack looks fine, I did not meter it but I intend to. Maybe I'll read the resistance of the coils, then put it in the freezer over night and meter it again. If I find the answer I'll post it......

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