99 4cyl 2.2L Loud whining noise when cold


Bill_H2003
12-01-2003, 11:34 PM
Hello,

Just bought my first 1999 Camry. Nice car. However, as soon as weather turned cold, I have a rather load whining noise from the engine belt side for the first 5-15 minutes when the engine is cold in the morning. Toyota changed a slightly worn belt tensioner pulley and idler pulley. Found nothing else wrong with the car.

The noise is no better since the pulleys were replaced. In addition, I now also hear a hissing or light whining sound when stepping on the gas in neutral when the engine is warm. Toyota says that both these noises are completely normal for the 99 Camry. They insist everything is fine.

In the members' opinion does this sound normal for a 99 Camry engine?

Question 2 - Do snow tires cause my Camry to loose some gas mileage. Since I put them on I believe my gas comsumption has increased. I'm asking in case this might tie into the above situation. I have not mentioned the gas increase to Toyota yet.

Thank you,
Bill

csaxon
12-03-2003, 11:01 AM
#2 Yes snow tires can effect gas mileage.
My son has a '99 camry..no noise. Could be misaligned pulley and belt. Could be a vacuum leak. Look for cracks in vacuum hoses etc

Bill_H2003
12-05-2003, 11:33 PM
#2 Yes snow tires can effect gas mileage.
My son has a '99 camry..no noise. Could be misaligned pulley and belt. Could be a vacuum leak. Look for cracks in vacuum hoses etc


Thanks for your help. Problem is now corrected by Toyota. Turns out the water pump was the source of the noise. The engine now sounds more normal when started cold and after it warms up.

Take care,
Bill

frankjc
12-08-2003, 01:22 PM
those cars eat water pumps

Bill_H2003
12-11-2003, 08:46 PM
Update: Toyota has missed it again. The replaced water pump failed to solve the loud whining noise when the engine is cold. This is really getting frustrating. I don't understand why it is so hard for class A machanics to locate the source of such a loud noise.

If the problem was a vacuum hose as suggested by one of the members, would I not see a check engine light come on? Could the problem be comming from a hole in the exhaust pipe at the front of the engine underneath that silver protective hood? If so, would the noise stop when the engine warmed up as it now does?

Any further suggestions would be appreciated. Toyota is not very helpful with this particular problem.

Thank you,
Bill

frankjc
12-12-2003, 02:49 PM
power steering pump? V6'S go thru p/s pumps. is yours a 6 or 4?
if it's a front pipe, you are looking at between $1000 and $1300, depending on the engine, for the pipe alone.

Bill_H2003
12-12-2003, 07:28 PM
It's a four cylinder 2.2L. Would a worn power steering pump produce a loud whining noise when cold? Also, would I not notice the car hard to turn as well?

Where in the collection of pumps and pulleys is the power steering pump located? I believe the water pump is directly below the alternator and I think the air conditioning compressor is the next down from there.

I am amazed that the exhaust pipe at the front of the engine under that protective hood would cost $1000.00 - $1300 min.

Thank you,
Bill

frankjc
12-12-2003, 10:20 PM
i'm such a dope, you said it was a 2.2 4cyl in the title of this thread, doh!
yes, it is possible that a worn p/s pump could whine, and you could find it hard to steer. is it? are there any leaks?

your water pump is driven by the timing belt.
your alternator and a/c compressor are driven by the same belt.
and the p/s belt is driven by the smallest, thinnest belt.

it's hard to say, without actually hearing the car...my first guess would have been the water pump.

masic_2000
12-16-2003, 09:17 PM
I also have a slight whining sound when the car is cold (2000' 4 cyl.). Seems to disappear after 10 min. Not sure what it could be, but reading these threads has got me wondering. stay tuned.

Bill_H2003
12-18-2003, 11:54 PM
That is the same noise that Toyota and I have been chasing after for weeks. First 10 minutes when cold. Six service calls, 1 new water pump, 1 new timing belt tensioner pulley and 1 new idler pulley without success locating the source. I was back into the dealership today and scheduled another service call for next week. This time, I am going to drop the car off the night before and then go back in the morning, so I will be there when they start it up cold. Hopefully, with me right there, they will have greater success locating the exact cause.

corvair
12-20-2003, 06:05 AM
if they are using the same timing belt this can be your noise. when ever i do any repair dealing with the timing belt i ALWAYS tell the customer that there WILL be a noise if the old belt is used. for some reason they dont like being reused. no prob. with using them just noisy. AND you might need the power steering fluid changed. Lexus has a power steering fluid conditioner that works every time. and all you v-6 owners if you have had your power steering pump resealed and it makes noise the tech didn't put the vains in the same way they came out.

Bill_H2003
12-21-2003, 11:39 PM
I have told Toyota that I'm bringing the car back in soon for them to once again track down the source of the noise when the engine is cold. I will be sure to mention the timing belt being re-used and also the power steering fluid change.

Would there be any harm putting the Lexus conditioner into the Camry steering fluid as a first try? Some of these dealerships get rather touchy with warranties when you use add-ins. I also wonder if Toyota has a conditioner as well.

Thanks for the helpful information.

Bill

Bill_H2003
12-23-2003, 10:56 AM
I just called my local Lexus dealer and they know nothing about any Power Steering Conditioner.

Any further information you can give me concerning this product?

masic_2000
12-23-2003, 11:35 PM
I think you can get this product fom any auto parts center. I know it is available for Honda -> "Bardahl Power Steering fluid and Conditioner".

smarisetty
01-07-2004, 07:08 PM
I just called my local Lexus dealer and they know nothing about any Power Steering Conditioner.

Any further information you can give me concerning this product?

HI Bill,

Any luck with your problem. I seem to be having exactly the same problem (noise when cold) and appears to be somewhere near the timing belt/water pump etc.

Typically, mechanics go with trial and error and find the problem before they replace the entire car. May be this might help (TSB).

EG001-99 JAN 99 Engine - Revised Timing Belt & Tension Spring

Bill_H2003
01-08-2004, 12:00 AM
Hello,

If you are having this similar problem then you have my sympathy. I have just taken my car in for service call number 7. Still cannot locate the source of the noise and Toyota still suggests that the noise is normal for this engine.

They do not have a response when I mention that the noise was not there before and therefore cannot be normal. They also have little response when I mention that other cars with the same engine do not have the same noise.

To fix this "normal" noise, the dealership has replaced and upgraded the belt tensioner pulley, idler pulley, timing belt and water pump. They have also, at my request, cleaned the throttle body and the injectors. The noise is still there without change.

On service call 7, the service manager and mechanic were both outside with me for this early morning startup. I focused their attention on the front area near the alternator and water pump where the exhaust tubes are under the silver protective hood. I asked if those pipes could be cracked or the gasket leaking to cause the loud noise. They said it sounded more like a bearing whine then air leak. After they felt around with their hands for air movement, they said it was fine and once again claimed that everything was normal.

I suppose service call number 8 is close at hand, but I would sure like some other options as to where I should look for this "bearing whine". So, in the meantime I am still scratching my head as I lift the hood each morning and search.

Should you have some success at locating the source, please contact me. I am extremely interested in how you get along locating this most irritating problem.

Take care,
Bill

csaxon
01-08-2004, 01:01 PM
This from one of my tech manuals. "Suppose a competent tech replaces a 2.2’s t-belt and adjusts it by the book. Then surprise! The new belt seems loose on the sprockets even though all the travel in the tensioner is taken up. Plus, the belt is noticeably noisier than those on earlier 2.2s. Several sources told us they’ve installed an updated tensioner spring Toyota released for this engine, but it had no effect on the noise or the slack in the belt.
If you favor an OE belt, be aware that Toyota finally issued a revised timing belt for the 2.2 that cures most, if not all, of the noise we’ve just described. Note, however, that this new belt has the same part number as the old one! By now, the chances of a parts guy handing you the previous belt are pretty slim, but you never know. When in doubt, Toyota’s serial number will tell you if it’s the updated t-belt. Look for the set of white serial numbers on the belt. For example, the white printing on the belt I have in my hand right now says 10 R0 127 MADE IN USA 382. You’re interested in the characters on the extreme left and extreme right of this serial number:
. •10 indicates the day, so this belt was made on the 10th of the month.
. •R indicates the month, so the belt was made in October (see the following chart):

January V
February U
March L
April C
May A
June N
July I
August Z
September E
October R
November M
December B

. •0 indicates the year (9 means1999, 0 means 2000).
. •382 on the extreme right is the build number.

Any belt manufactured on 01 B 9 (Dec. 1, 1999) with a build number greater than 316 is the revised belt. Furthermore, any belt made after Dec. 1, 1999 is okay, too."

smarisetty
01-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Hi Bill,

I am sorry for you to begin with. I have not see a mechanic yet and hoping to learn from your experience. In general, I have never had much luck with dealer-mechanics in the past with intermittent problems like these. They are very good at doing rountine maintenance jobs and rip your money out. Once I had to go 10 times to the dealer before my problem was identified by a cheap garage mechanic without even looking at the problem, for $0 charge.

In the past, Toyota dealer had me made several trips and I finally identified the problem from the TSB on www.nhtsa.gov. Check this site out and see if there any such customer complaints.

What we are seeing is probably an issue with the timing belt. The mechanics at the dealership are just a bunch of loosers, else they would be doing something else in their life (like having their own garage), waiting to rip-you out.

I will try to fix the problem myself (will learn how do do it), but have to first identify the cause.

sm

Bill_H2003
01-08-2004, 11:29 PM
This from one of my tech manuals. "Suppose a competent tech replaces a 2.2’s t-belt and adjusts it by the book. Then surprise!

<snip>

Any belt manufactured on 01 B 9 (Dec. 1, 1999) with a build number greater than 316 is the revised belt. Furthermore, any belt made after Dec. 1, 1999 is okay, too."

Thank you for this information. I will print this out and take it with me to service call number 8.

However, I have one quick question. Is there anyway I could get a look at the numbers on the belt that is installed on the car right now without removing the belt?

Take care,
Bill

csaxon
01-09-2004, 11:59 AM
The upper timing belt cover and gasket are held on by screws but you might want to call the parts dept where the belt was replaced and have them check the lot numbers of the belts they have in stock. You would think they are using the newer belt but they may have had some of the old.

ratnfested
09-03-2004, 01:49 PM
The wifes 97 makes a noise when cold too. Its a 4cyl, bought with 97k and now it has 166k. It runs good for the most part but has been giving us a bit of trouble lately. I need to clean the EGR, IAC, test the CTS and replace the O2 sensor (code/light for that) and hopefully it will be better.

smarisetty
09-03-2004, 02:01 PM
My problem was root caused to the water pump, which is driven by the timing belt. Don't wait til the timing belt comes off. Have the water pump changed.

My timing belt came loose after the water pump bearing became loose, on the freeway.

Now my car smokes a lot on cold start. Looks like the breaking of timing belt has done something to the heads.

corvair
09-03-2004, 08:45 PM
The breaking of the timing belt / waterpump has nothing to do with the smoke on start up.

You need valve seals or your engine is sludged AND you need valve seals.

corvair
09-03-2004, 08:49 PM
2 things will cause the whine from a timing belt. 1 the timing belt was reused. 2 it is too tight.

smarisetty
09-04-2004, 12:50 PM
the smoking of car at cold start is very severe and started all of a sudden. I know there is a recall on 97 model camry due to engine sludging. Do you think this could be due to this problem.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t191631.html

corvair
09-04-2004, 04:15 PM
yup, and it isn't a recall.

Bill_H2003
09-04-2004, 07:02 PM
2 things will cause the whine from a timing belt. 1 the timing belt was reused. 2 it is too tight.

Toyota seems to disagree with you. My timming belt has a very loud whine when cold and even whines when the engine is hot during acceleration. I have complained to Toyota on several occasions and they claim the whine is perfectly normal.

After reading other replies concerning your same comments, I returned to the Toyota dealership and requested the timming belt be replaced and that I would assume all costs (No warrenty claim). They refused saying that at 63,000kms I was way too early and the whine was perfectly normal.

I have done nothing further and I'm disgusted with Toyota and there lack of interest in this very obvious and easy to hear problem.

jpgardiner
09-06-2004, 05:09 AM
ive had this problem many times at toyota.have they checked the sump for damage or removed the sump to check for a blocked strainer.does the noise sound like a power steering pump with no oil?if it does you can bet the strainer in the sump is blocked or the sump is hitting on the strainer[oil pickup]the oil light does not always come on. the noise normally goes away when warm because the oil is thinner. i work at Toyota Australia and had this problem before when people do not do regular oil changes..without listening it is hard to tell but give this a go and let me know

smarisetty
09-07-2004, 12:10 PM
Bill,

I think your problem may be similar to what I had. The noise was bad at cold. It was the bearing (I think) on the water pump that went bad. Sure, my problem happended at about 60K miles. It is not really the timing belt issue, but the pass over of the timing belt over the water pump.

Corvair: I agree it is not a recall. The problem I have is that I maintain my own car and do very regular oil changes, say every 3 months, no matter what.

How do I produce records to show service/oil change to claim the extended warranty (or what ever you call it) for sludge problem.

Wonder if any DIY successfully got Toyota to take care of this problem. I sure did have lots of problems with my 97, very early on:

1. Front Strut assembly (TBS)
2. Water Pump
3. Now sludge

All of this within 70K miles.

calvic
09-10-2004, 11:09 AM
For what its worth, mine was making a similar noise. Mine was caused by a leaking power steering pump hose. The noise was caused by air in the system. After the thing warmed up air was gone and it was quite. You could check this by turning steering wheel hard left and right while its making this noise. Mine would get noisier. Just something to check.

JJ

corvair
09-10-2004, 12:16 PM
Try this. remove the 2 belts (power steering and alt.) one at a time. and start the car. that will tell you if it is the alt or the power steering pump. the water pump is driven by the timing belt so there is no danger of over heating.

as for the sludge problem go and get yourself a new valve cover gasket and pull the valve cover your self. that will tell you for sure. Jus make sure that the new gasket is installed in the cover by tapping on it lightly with a small hammer to make sure it is even. then make sure that you apply 4 dabs of silicone sealer at the cam cap corners. the tourque spec is 33 ft lbs. and start from the middle two then out a little at a time until you get 33 ft lbs.

and as for smoke on start up you need valve seals. I've replaced lots of them just for that reason and every time it repaired the problem.

If the engine is sludged toyota will remove it and replace any dammaged parts but you will have to bring it to them it isn't a recall it is called a SPA.

you will have to show some sort of record of at least 2 oil changes or oil and filter you have bought within the last year.

If the engine is sludged they SHOULD replace the valve seals also when the sludge is removed. They should also do a compression test to see if the rings are stuck. Make sure that the PCV valve is replaced also.

Camry, Sienna, 4 runner and the Avalon are the only ones covered under the SPA. And it doesnt matter if the car is under the factory warrentee or not.

And I don't think extended warrentee covers sludge.

As for your oil change at every 3k it doesn't matter. I desludged a 4 runner at 40k and the customer ALLWAYS had the oil changed at 3k at our dealership and it was sludged to the point where the oil would not return to the pan from the heads (causing the engine to smoke threw the valve guides via the valve seals) and starved the lower end of oil and toyota replaced the short block free of charge.

IF the dealer that you are dealing with is giving you a hard time about this the next time you go there get the service advisors card and ask them for the 800 number to call AND tell them you need to be informed when the factory Rep. will be at that dealership so you can talk to him or her about the problem.
I asure you that will get things going.

Make a big stink about it and get names of all the people you deal with.

Mr.Toyota does NOT like to have unhappy customers and really doesn't want employees that refuse to kiss your ass.

Hope this helps

Brian R.
09-10-2004, 03:22 PM
As for your oil change at every 3k it doesn't matter. I desludged a 4 runner at 40k and the customer ALLWAYS had the oil changed at 3k at our dealership and it was sludged to the point where the oil would not return to the pan from the heads (causing the engine to smoke threw the valve guides via the valve seals) and starved the lower end of oil and toyota replaced the short block free of charge.

This very rare and not a good example of what happens with regular maintenance. There must have been another problem associated with this engine that was not taken care of. Changing your oil every 3k is conservative and should never result in sludge build up in a 4Runner. Camrys and 4Runners have nothing in common with regard to sludge. Totally different problems with each engine.

corvair
09-10-2004, 04:09 PM
Wrong. The sluge problem has happened to ALL of the cars I had listed that have had ALL of their maintenance done at our dealership 5K, 10K, 15K
etc etc.

If what you are saying is the case how would you explain the stack of Lexus V8 short blocks in our warrentee return area.

The maintenance on these cars is FREE.

At any given time there could be up to 5 sludge engines being worked on at one time.

There was no OTHER problem with this engine.

corvair
09-10-2004, 04:14 PM
And Lexus uses synthetic oil only.

Brian R.
09-10-2004, 07:08 PM
No, right, 4Runners don't have this problem. Problems with Lexus engines and Camry engines have nothing to do with 4Runner engines.

If your right about 4runners, there should be hundreds of other posts that complain about sludge in a 4Runner where the owner has maintained the engine with frequent oil changes. Where are they? Find some. I am interested. You won't find them because they don't exist. It is easy to prove me wrong, but not by talking.

corvair
09-10-2004, 07:39 PM
your right i'm wrong feel better now?

Brian R.
09-10-2004, 07:40 PM
Prove me wrong...

Talk just don't get it. If there is a problem, I want to know about it.

smarisetty
09-14-2004, 10:21 PM
Hi Corvair,

Guess what, I took my smoking Toyota at startup to the dealer and he said that Toyota is willing to pay for the parts worth $700 and I should pay for the dealer labor of $1300. They are going to change the valve seals and gasket.

Any suggestions. $1300 for labor seems like a fortune. They are not willing to cover this problem under the engine sluge TSB.

sm

smarisetty
10-21-2004, 12:31 PM
HI,

After the dealer replaced the value seals, in about a month I am getting check engine light. The dealer says that he we charge me $120 again for diagnonsis and credit me if it were a problem due their earlier repair.

Any suggestions on how I can make sure it is related to their repair, without spending $120. If is unrelated, I would rather fix it myself.

thanks
sm

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