i'm thinking the Z06 can out run it in the 1/4mile but on the twisties, i don't know, you call it.

Z06 in turns, acceleration and braking. No question.

Z06 would take it, but id probably go for the Lotus (after considerable deliberating)

No contest. the Corvette would beat it with no real problem. Now if it were against the Elise...

it would spank the elise

I've seen video around a winding course where the Elise gives a Z06 a run for its money. But it was probably the 385 HP Z06.

The Elise is a great, great little car, but it simply doesnt have enough power to play with a Z06. Unlike an Esprit Turbo.

Which Elise was it anyway? Are you sure it wasnt an Exige?

How much HP does this mythical Elise TT have? The 405HP ZO6 is a tough cookie to match up against...

I've seen video around a winding course where the Elise gives a Z06 a run for its money. But it was probably the 385 HP Z06.

First of all, that was an Exige. Secondly, we have no idea if that was a Z06. Considering Z06 are not prevelant at all in Europe (I don't even think they are sold there), I would guess that Vette is simply a coupe (ie: 350hp).

Are you guys really trying to claim that an Esprit Turbo could be out run by a Corvette? :lol:

First, it was a Z06. the ducts are kind of a giveaway. second, the lotus couldn't keep up but for the turns. The Z06 can--and will, if it already hasn't-- beat most any sports car on the road.

First, it was a Z06. the ducts are kind of a giveaway. second, the lotus couldn't keep up but for the turns. The Z06 can--and will, if it already hasn't-- beat most any sports car on the road.

First, it was not a Z06. I just saw the video again. There are no ducts. None at all. That's right, no ducts. Do you need me to say it again? No ducts.
If that was a Z06(which it is not), it would absolutely slaughter an Exige. Past 100mph, the Z06 would just leave it like no other. You do know that the 04 Z06 got sub 8 minutes on the ring, right?

Are you guys really trying to claim that an Esprit Turbo could be out run by a Corvette? :lol:

Not only out run. I think "decimation" might be a better term. At any single point on the track I would wager that the Z06 speed would be faster than the Exprit TT.

The Elise is a great, great little car, but it simply doesnt have enough power to play with a Z06. Unlike an Esprit Turbo.

Which Elise was it anyway? Are you sure it wasnt an Exige?

which is the elise with the audi engine in it? was from an S4 or RS6 or something like it, a beast of a motor in that little car could give anything a run for its money.

Exige is a hard top. It has the celica engine(similar to the US). Now that I think about it, I think the Exige would sound differently than in the video...has anyone heard the Celica? Does it sound similar to the Exige?

even though the esprit is a beautiful car that is plenty fast, its no match for the Z06. they should top out at around the same speed though ( around 180 mph +) even though the Z06 will out run the lotus in the 1/4 i think the lotus will have a chance at the higher end 100 + mph. but the Z06 will destroy it in the handling and braking department. of course that is because the chassis is a 20+ year old chassis that really had no real changes to it, so its not really fair.

Z06 top speed is limited to 172mph the esprit is more like 186
so then if the Z06 is so much better than the esprit then what about the nsx-t against the esprit

I would guess the NSX-T.

i'm not going for that one, the nsx isn't as fast as the esprit.

even though the esprit is a beautiful car that is plenty fast, its no match for the Z06. they should top out at around the same speed though ( around 180 mph +) even though the Z06 will out run the lotus in the 1/4 i think the lotus will have a chance at the higher end 100 + mph. but the Z06 will destroy it in the handling and braking department. of course that is because the chassis is a 20+ year old chassis that really had no real changes to it, so its not really fair.
But this 20 year old chassis is still superb- Not one of the top chassis' any more and the Elise is really a whole lot better- but Lotus have been for the past few decades, the masters of Chassis and Suspension- GM have had speacialised components for handling designed by Lotus and even let Lotus loose on some of thier cars (Omega Carlton anyone?) and seriously- look at how Lotus tuning turned the Proton Satria (a 12 year old Mitsubishi Mirage) into a fully-fledged track monster in the form of the Satria GTi

I feel inclined to say that the Lotus chassis is far superior to that of the Corvette (Which is disappointing to say the least)- Because I've driven a C5 and a '97 Esprit V8- the Vette wins on brakes- but hey- Lotus haven't tried thier hands at those yet...............

But this 20 year old chassis is still superb- Not one of the top chassis' any more and the Elise is really a whole lot better- but Lotus have been for the past few decades, the masters of Chassis and Suspension- GM have had speacialised components for handling designed by Lotus and even let Lotus loose on some of thier cars (Omega Carlton anyone?) and seriously- look at how Lotus tuning turned the Proton Satria (a 12 year old Mitsubishi Mirage) into a fully-fledged track monster in the form of the Satria GTi

I feel inclined to say that the Lotus chassis is far superior to that of the Corvette (Which is disappointing to say the least)- Because I've driven a C5 and a '97 Esprit V8- the Vette wins on brakes- but hey- Lotus haven't tried thier hands at those yet...............


The Z06 is a completely different beast than a C5. Was this even a C5 with the Z51 option?

The Z06 is still a mass produced sports car designed for soft American Market, its simply not in the same class as an Esprit V8.


And Jim, I think a Lotus reply would be to say "Lotus don't need brakes, they don't need to slow down for corners!"
However they did adress the problem on the 350 sport and the V8 GT.

The Z06 is still a mass produced sports car designed for soft American Market, its simply not in the same class as an Esprit V8.


And Jim, I think a Lotus reply would be to say "Lotus don't need brakes, they don't need to slow down for corners!"
However they did adress the problem on the 350 sport and the V8 GT.


I like your supporting empiracle evidence. I didn't realize .98 G's was for the "soft" American market.

Ever tried driving one on anything but a billiard-table smooth American highway???? Thought not- simply in a word why the Corvettes suspension has trouble coping, because, like most Yank tanks, it can glide over those roads.......

Esprit, I"d rather a car hand-made in England by people who know what they are doing, rather than some mass-made in a Redneck state Yank-tank thank you very much- y'see the Lotus is a true Supercar and given LOtus' reputation is probably a far superior drive as well- but I've driven neither and don't intend to for years more

Esprit, I"d rather a car hand-made in England by people who know what they are doing, rather than some mass-made in a Redneck state Yank-tank thank you very much- y'see the Lotus is a true Supercar and given LOtus' reputation is probably a far superior drive as well- but I've driven neither and don't intend to for years more
I find it humorous that a 'Yank-tank' is still built to compete and outperform (more than likely in this case) these 'hand-made' cars where the people know what they are doing.

Ever tried driving one on anything but a billiard-table smooth American highway???? Thought not- simply in a word why the Corvettes suspension has trouble coping, because, like most Yank tanks, it can glide over those roads.......

That may have somthing to do with the specifications on the tunning of the vettes suspension. I'm sure if they wanted it to be smooth, it could be much more smooth. And since American roads are better than most European roads this may mean that american cars are probably going to be tuned for a better surface verses a rougher surface. How good do you think the ride of a Lotus is going to feel on a rough road? It may be better than the vette....but don't expect it to be anything spectacular.

Ever tried driving one on anything but a billiard-table smooth American highway???? Thought not- simply in a word why the Corvettes suspension has trouble coping, because, like most Yank tanks, it can glide over those roads.......

LOL, so you've driven/ridden in a Z06? This is in Europe....where they don't sell Z06's, right?

I find it humorous that a 'Yank-tank' is still built to compete and outperform (more than likely in this case) these 'hand-made' cars where the people know what they are doing.



That may have somthing to do with the specifications on the tunning of the vettes suspension. I'm sure if they wanted it to be smooth, it could be much more smooth. And since American roads are better than most European roads this may mean that american cars are probably going to be tuned for a better surface verses a rougher surface. How good do you think the ride of a Lotus is going to feel on a rough road? It may be better than the vette....but don't expect it to be anything spectacular.
American roads better????? In quality of surface- yes (Except the LA Freeway, I've been on 4WD trails that are smoother than that) but for actually driving on them, no- European roads have no shortages of mountain passes and winding corners that the Straight (For the most part) American roads don't have.

This generally is why European cars reign superior to those of America in the field of chassis design/engineering- hell I'd like to see someone drive a Camaro in the places I've taken my Alfa.......

Of course I am ridiculous to question the American Skyline (Read: Deemed untouchable by those who don't know what they are talking about) :rolleyes:

I haven't driven a COrvette Z06 on our roads, but a standard Corvette- which was fitted with new tyres (To replace the disastrous stock ones) was enough to put me off the thought of driving one- or any American car on our roads, ever again. Except for the Austrian Chryslers.........

Ever tried driving one on anything but a billiard-table smooth American highway???? Thought not- simply in a word why the Corvettes suspension has trouble coping, because, like most Yank tanks, it can glide over those roads.......

I'm not sure where any of you think thatall american roads are smooth, but you're about as wrong as it gets. There are many, many highways where I live with enough turns to upset MS' stomach and they're far from smooth, but if you ahve to make things up for your side of the argument then whichever, i'm sure some fanboys will believe you.

Moppie, "soft" eh? I didn't realize that outperforming the other car in question made the Z06 "soft", but again, whatever it takes to help you sleep at night...

As for driving my camaro on your roads, about the only reason I wouldn't tkae it on some of them is that it's simply too wide to fit into a single lane, but many other cars would have the same problem as well. It will have no problem taking any of the cars mentioned here recently in any kind of road course, handling ability is far from it's downfall.

well what i think jimster means by smooth is like the curves of hte usual road. like how most american highwyas are very straight, and rarely have back country roads like in england and so on.

well what i think jimster means by smooth is like the curves of hte usual road. like how most american highwyas are very straight, and rarely have back country roads like in england and so on.

It's a pity he can't word things as well as you, but of course any chance he has to take a shot at american cars is too much of a temptation. I can agree to that though, there aren't nearly as many, mostly because the roads were built to eliminate the unnecessary turns. There's several roads here that have plenty of turns and tight lanes, anyone who's driven the saw mill, taconic or 9A would know this. His posts are just assumptions, but by billiard table smooth I take it as smooth surface, especially since he was talking about ride, which by the wya, the Z06 rides just as well as a C5 on rough roads, which happens to be very well for a sportscar, several cars in the same performance category I can think of rode much, much worse.

American roads better????? In quality of surface- yes (Except the LA Freeway, I've been on 4WD trails that are smoother than that) but for actually driving on them, no- European roads have no shortages of mountain passes and winding corners that the Straight (For the most part) American roads don't have.

This generally is why European cars reign superior to those of America in the field of chassis design/engineering- hell I'd like to see someone drive a Camaro in the places I've taken my Alfa.......

Of course I am ridiculous to question the American Skyline (Read: Deemed untouchable by those who don't know what they are talking about) :rolleyes:


So you generally think that the reason that European cars are more superior than american cars (in the field of chasis design/engineering) are because of their poor quality of road surface?

I did make a fairly general statement saying that american roads are better than european roads when in all actuality, I was considering the quality of our roads (which you did correct me in).

I don't think that american cars are more superior than european cars and vis versa. I take all cars into consideration (not only by where they were designed/produced) and try as well as I can to compare them.

The US is a large country, it would make sense that the interstates/intrastates are more straight than they are windy strictly for traveling purposes.

And I (i don't think your refering to me or anyone in particular) don't think that the Z06 is americas skyline. It is just another car out of the many cars produced here.

I just wanted to reflect my opinion. I love almost all cars including the Lotus. I am a big fan of the elise. (who the heck couldn't be)

American roads better????? In quality of surface- yes (Except the LA Freeway, I've been on 4WD trails that are smoother than that) but for actually driving on them, no- European roads have no shortages of mountain passes and winding corners that the Straight (For the most part) American roads don't have.

This generally is why European cars reign superior to those of America in the field of chassis design/engineering- hell I'd like to see someone drive a Camaro in the places I've taken my Alfa.......

Of course I am ridiculous to question the American Skyline (Read: Deemed untouchable by those who don't know what they are talking about) :rolleyes:

I haven't driven a COrvette Z06 on our roads, but a standard Corvette- which was fitted with new tyres (To replace the disastrous stock ones) was enough to put me off the thought of driving one- or any American car on our roads, ever again. Except for the Austrian Chryslers.........

Oh wait........you're actually saying that a base C5 is going to act the same as a Z06.:rolleyes:

"Of course I am ridiculous to question the American Skyline (Read: Deemed untouchable by those who don't know what they are talking about) :rolleyes:"
Fact: Z06's have proven to compete with 911 Turbos.
Do I think it would take a 360 Modena on the track? No, but it would be close.
Do I think it could take a 575 on a track? Yes, but that would be close as well.
Do people ever construe it differently than that?

Perhaps you should rephrase your thoughts on the Z06 from "poorly engineered for European roads" to "I refuse to believe empiracle evidence and I haven't ridden in one so I don't know what I'm talking about."
I'm going to be the first one to admit "tossability" isn't the Z06's strong point, but it is still an extremely well handling car (backed up by objective results and subjective testimony).

errrr a 575 will get killed by a Z06 and a modena. the 575 is like a super fast aston martin. which is a big overweight front engine GT. designed more torwards germans autobaun rather then a super razor sharp track car. in fact even a F355 can take a 575 at a race track.

On the whole American roads are wider and straighter than European roads. It sounds like a stupid thing to say but it's a simple truth.
The cars developed on each of these continents were designed for these particular continents and as a result, generally speaking, European cars are sharper handlers than American ones. Cars like the Camaro dont make sense over here because - sorry - they dont handle. The Camaro is great bang for your buck but throw in a curve or two and outmuscled European sports cars will destroy it. The Z06 does show that America can make very good cars, however too many dinosaurs like the Ford Crown Victoria remain. I dont think there is any European manufacturer that makes a car as bad as that. But that's ok, it's tailored to the States, so its obviously a successful car there.

errrr a 575 will get killed by a Z06 and a modena. the 575 is like a super fast aston martin. which is a big overweight front engine GT. designed more torwards germans autobaun rather then a super razor sharp track car. in fact even a F355 can take a 575 at a race track.

Come again?
Both the 550 and the 575 is faster the 360.
You should get your facts straight....

these comparos are getting really stupid.

why doesn't someone just post the numbers for the esprit tt and the zo6?

i'm pretty sure that the zo6 has higher hp, and better handling. so where's the argument at?

the lotus exige is a small, practically race only ar, with yoko racing tires on it. and it's got see-thru plexi "doors" on it.

the elise is coming here, (stateside) with the celica engine, not the rover based engine.

the elise is quick, 5 second 0-60, faster than most cars that are twice as expensive, but it's not a match for an overall track time against a zo6 unless it's a twisty track. the elise has been deemed one of, if not the best, the best handling cars in the world.

back to the esprit.
tt, 380ish hp. what's it pull on the skidpad?
any comparisons for how it runs on similar tracks to the zo6?
nope...

zo6 is soft. really.

drive one. again, .98 g's is soft. so a porsche 911 gt3 is a rock, right?

amazing. don't claim that a car is soft b/c something that it's "related" to (c5 z51) is "soft" in your eyes. if you've never driven one, which i have, don't make claims.

Come again?
Both the 550 and the 575 is faster the 360.
You should get your facts straight....

from all the road test that i've heard it been thru, they loved the way the 550 and 575 acelerated in the straight but the car was just too heavy to toss around compared to a lighter more nimble modena. the car is still no slouch but i mean i've seen videos of it race compared to other ferraris and all i see is it being left in the dust and all i hear is the driver goin "damn this freakin car is heavy" while he cornering. your a moderator so you should know that its not all about power in road racing. a better balanced car with slightly worse power to weight will come out on top. if you can other wise prove me wrong on how the 575 or 550 is faster in a race track then i'll believe you, but from what i've seen ( from best motoring ) its not at home on a race track compared to a modena.

On the whole American roads are wider and straighter than European roads. It sounds like a stupid thing to say but it's a simple truth.
The cars developed on each of these continents were designed for these particular continents and as a result, generally speaking, European cars are sharper handlers than American ones. Cars like the Camaro dont make sense over here because - sorry - they dont handle. The Camaro is great bang for your buck but throw in a curve or two and outmuscled European sports cars will destroy it. The Z06 does show that America can make very good cars, however too many dinosaurs like the Ford Crown Victoria remain. I dont think there is any European manufacturer that makes a car as bad as that. But that's ok, it's tailored to the States, so its obviously a successful car there.

I agree that on a mountain road the smaller "well handling" European car would likely destroy a Camaro. But on a racetrack? Stock for stock, a Camaro SS can keep up with a lot of machinery......S2000/Boxster S/Etc...

from all the road test that i've heard it been thru, they loved the way the 550 and 575 acelerated in the straight but the car was just too heavy to toss around compared to a lighter more nimble modena. the car is still no slouch but i mean i've seen videos of it race compared to other ferraris and all i see is it being left in the dust and all i hear is the driver goin "damn this freakin car is heavy" while he cornering.
So what you are saying here is that the driver couldn't handle the car?


your a moderator so you should know that its not all about power in road racing. a better balanced car with slightly worse power to weight will come out on top. if you can other wise prove me wrong on how the 575 or 550 is faster in a race track then i'll believe you, but from what i've seen ( from best motoring ) its not at home on a race track compared to a modena.

So you are basing your arguments on a test done on a narrow track with multiple cars racing at the same time with different drivers, against eachother and not the clock?

On the whole American roads are wider and straighter than European roads. It sounds like a stupid thing to say but it's a simple truth.
The cars developed on each of these continents were designed for these particular continents and as a result, generally speaking, European cars are sharper handlers than American ones. Cars like the Camaro dont make sense over here because - sorry - they dont handle. The Camaro is great bang for your buck but throw in a curve or two and outmuscled European sports cars will destroy it. The Z06 does show that America can make very good cars, however too many dinosaurs like the Ford Crown Victoria remain. I dont think there is any European manufacturer that makes a car as bad as that. But that's ok, it's tailored to the States, so its obviously a successful car there.

I'm not arguing either of your first 2 points, as on a whole, as you said, you're completely right. I'm arguing Jimsters notion that all american roads and cars are built for wide open highways without a single turn in there anywhere. While there are fewer of them, there are still plenty of small, tight, windy mountain roads to be found here in NY, and many more in arizona & california, the rocky mountains are reknown for them.

As to your camaro jab, I'll chalk that up to simply not knowing enough about them, which is understandable since I doubt any were shipped over there. I'm not being pompous when I say that my camaro will perform with most any car you can throw at it on a track, and I only say this because I've seen it done and know what the car is capable of. But, believe what you like, I'm not going to make this into another comparison, just be careful about what you say of cars you haven't seen run yourself.

So what you are saying here is that the driver couldn't handle the car?


So you are basing your arguments on a test done on a narrow track with multiple cars racing at the same time with different drivers, against eachother and not the clock?

shouldn't that mean something? and i wouldn't exactly call that track small, i don't know how its spelled but its a famous japanese race track, its pronounced skuba circuit. i mean in a race, the faster more agile car wins am i not right? if the 575 or 550 was that much faster, it could've atleast kept up with the top 3 instead of being dead last.

On the whole American roads are wider and straighter than European roads. It sounds like a stupid thing to say but it's a simple truth.
The cars developed on each of these continents were designed for these particular continents and as a result, generally speaking, European cars are sharper handlers than American ones. Cars like the Camaro dont make sense over here because - sorry - they dont handle. The Camaro is great bang for your buck but throw in a curve or two and outmuscled European sports cars will destroy it. The Z06 does show that America can make very good cars, however too many dinosaurs like the Ford Crown Victoria remain. I dont think there is any European manufacturer that makes a car as bad as that. But that's ok, it's tailored to the States, so its obviously a successful car there.
What about Dacia :naughty: Although they are quite the exotic :D

:rolleyes: at the majority of this third page

flywsi: You can't detremine handling by numbers, in fact the only way it can be detrermined is by which chassis you prefer- and in this case it is quite easily the Lotus for me- and that is my opnion, just like it's whoever elses opinion that the COrvette is a better hanling car. I personally find the Vette to be under-engineered and rushed- maybe the C6 will solve that- only time will tell..............

USing width as a reason not to bring a Camaro to European raods is a cop-out- FIAT Multiplas and S Classes can fit, so Camaros can as well.

And I'm shocked that most people can't comprehend that I was saying that European roads are twisty and windy- and due to us facing these roads reguarly, our cars must be designed to take on these roads, hence why a Peugeot 4O6 handles like a Sports car, while a Buick Regal handles like a wafty luxury car, same thing with 5-Series and Cadillac STS- it contributes to why chassis engineering in Europe is so greatly required, while in America it isn't- the only American cars that are decently designed are ones with the race track in mind- the Corvette does fall under this catagorey and is hence a capable-handling car, but I still feel it falls short of Europes best.


And I don't slag American cars, I simply give crdit where credit is due and as far as I'm concerned- the credit mostly goes to the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep range of vehicles, the Ford Mustang Cobra ('03), F150 SVT Lightning and the Saleen S7, while the Corvette Z06 ranks very highly as well, just not nearly as highly as most European supercars

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Media/magazines/rt9906.htm

Owned? I think yes...
Remember, this is the BASE Corvette, a Z06 gets .98 Gs and slaloms much higher.

What about Dacia :naughty: Although they are quite the exotic :D

:rolleyes: at the majority of this third page

flywsi: You can't detremine handling by numbers, in fact the only way it can be detrermined is by which chassis you prefer- and in this case it is quite easily the Lotus for me- and that is my opnion, just like it's whoever elses opinion that the COrvette is a better hanling car. I personally find the Vette to be under-engineered and rushed- maybe the C6 will solve that- only time will tell..............

USing width as a reason not to bring a Camaro to European raods is a cop-out- FIAT Multiplas and S Classes can fit, so Camaros can as well.

And I'm shocked that most people can't comprehend that I was saying that European roads are twisty and windy- and due to us facing these roads reguarly, our cars must be designed to take on these roads, hence why a Peugeot 4O6 handles like a Sports car, while a Buick Regal handles like a wafty luxury car, same thing with 5-Series and Cadillac STS- it contributes to why chassis engineering in Europe is so greatly required, while in America it isn't- the only American cars that are decently designed are ones with the race track in mind- the Corvette does fall under this catagorey and is hence a capable-handling car, but I still feel it falls short of Europes best.


And I don't slag American cars, I simply give crdit where credit is due and as far as I'm concerned- the credit mostly goes to the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep range of vehicles, the Ford Mustang Cobra ('03), F150 SVT Lightning and the Saleen S7, while the Corvette Z06 ranks very highly as well, just not nearly as highly as most European supercars

"USing width as a reason not to bring a Camaro to European raods is a cop-out- FIAT Multiplas and S Classes can fit, so Camaros can as well."

That's not the point, it's that Camaros aren't sold over in Europe extensively (less than 100 a year for the whole continent, I'd imagine). How do you know that Camaros handle poorly?

"And I'm shocked that most people can't comprehend that I was saying that European roads are twisty and windy- and due to us facing these roads reguarly, our cars must be designed to take on these roads, hence why a Peugeot 4O6 handles like a Sports car, while a Buick Regal handles like a wafty luxury car, same thing with 5-Series and Cadillac STS- it contributes to why chassis engineering in Europe is so greatly required, while in America it isn't- the only American cars that are decently designed are ones with the race track in mind- the Corvette does fall under this catagorey and is hence a capable-handling car, but I still feel it falls short of Europes best."

The Corvette is a street car through and through, a Z06 was designed for the track. So you say it falls short of Europe's best..........please define "Europe's best".......

"USing width as a reason not to bring a Camaro to European raods is a cop-out- FIAT Multiplas and S Classes can fit, so Camaros can as well."

That's not the point, it's that Camaros aren't sold over in Europe extensively (less than 100 a year for the whole continent, I'd imagine). How do you know that Camaros handle poorly?

"And I'm shocked that most people can't comprehend that I was saying that European roads are twisty and windy- and due to us facing these roads reguarly, our cars must be designed to take on these roads, hence why a Peugeot 4O6 handles like a Sports car, while a Buick Regal handles like a wafty luxury car, same thing with 5-Series and Cadillac STS- it contributes to why chassis engineering in Europe is so greatly required, while in America it isn't- the only American cars that are decently designed are ones with the race track in mind- the Corvette does fall under this catagorey and is hence a capable-handling car, but I still feel it falls short of Europes best."

The Corvette is a street car through and through, a Z06 was designed for the track. So you say it falls short of Europe's best..........please define "Europe's best".......
Sorry to tell you this, but the Z06 and standard Corvette are the same chassis- the Corvette is a street car, sure that is true- but evidently- the design brief was clearly "If they may want to take it to the track.............."

Europes best- simply the vast range of exotic cars offered by European makers- the Vette beats each and everyone for Bang for buck, but it simply doesn't make it a better car over all.

and I've driven a small selection of Camaros

one V6 Auto in the US of A
one RHD Z28 (Convertible) Auto in New Zealand
and a Z28 Coupe manual in the USA.

and all failed to do anything for me- the cars are extremely crude- the V6 rating amongst the worst cars I've ever driven, I seriously don't understand why people place the words competent and Camaro in the same sentence. But the Camaro has nothing to do with this thread, so we won't discuss it any further- I simply used it as a supporting reference.

Sorry to tell you this, but the Z06 and standard Corvette are the same chassis- the Corvette is a street car, sure that is true- but evidently- the design brief was clearly "If they may want to take it to the track.............."

Europes best- simply the vast range of exotic cars offered by European makers- the Vette beats each and everyone for Bang for buck, but it simply doesn't make it a better car over all.

Of course a Z06 and C5 Coupe they are the same chassis, the same way a 996 Carrera and Porsche GT2/GT3 are the same chassis. The same way an E36 330 or E46 330 compare to the E36 M3 or E46 M3.

The performance spread between a base C5 and a Z06 is very large, especially in the handling department. Hell, you could even argue that the Chassis is different simply because the Z06 is a hardtop while the base coupe is a targa(is that the right term?). Aside from the chassis itself, the suspension tuning is arguably much better than the standard Corvette. How else could it be as fast a 911 Turbo on the track?

If Lotus is such a god of chassis/suspension tuning, what would explain this article? I thought it would wipe the floor with a Z06.....it looks like it can't even beat a base C5.

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Media/magazines/rt9906.htm

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Media/magazines/rt9906.htm


That article is sadly floored, and Iv only read the second paragraph.
The Esprit V8 is claimed to use the same chassis as all the other models, yet having work on more of them than you have probobly seen in your life I can tell you that the only part it shares in common with the lesser modesl is the upper frount suspension ball joint. The rest of the chassis is totaly new.

Being an American Article you have to admit that it shows more than just a little bit of Biasis.

don't you mean the article is flawed ;) :lol: Evidently it is- and as you- being the experienced Lotus technician you are, have pointed out the starting point of flaws

I'm getting a little bit confused on what you(Moppie and Jimster) consider the chassis. Can you elaborate to what pieces of the suspension are included with the chassis(if any at all).....please educate me.

You understand my point with the article, right?

I'm not arguing either of your first 2 points, as on a whole, as you said, you're completely right. I'm arguing Jimsters notion that all american roads and cars are built for wide open highways without a single turn in there anywhere. While there are fewer of them, there are still plenty of small, tight, windy mountain roads to be found here in NY, and many more in arizona & california, the rocky mountains are reknown for them.

As to your camaro jab, I'll chalk that up to simply not knowing enough about them, which is understandable since I doubt any were shipped over there. I'm not being pompous when I say that my camaro will perform with most any car you can throw at it on a track, and I only say this because I've seen it done and know what the car is capable of. But, believe what you like, I'm not going to make this into another comparison, just be careful about what you say of cars you haven't seen run yourself.
Dont assume i havent seen American cars run. Once upon a time i got on a plane and flew over to the US of A to visit family. Interestingly for me, my uncle that lives out there owns a dealership. Do you see where this is going? I was far from impressed with the Camaro, though i have to say it wasnt me driving it, and it wasnt an SS (as far as i remember). Add to that the fact that the Camaro got some of the worst reviews ive ever seen / read over here, not kicking it down - like i say, its great at demolishing straights, but it wasnt built for twisty roads.

this is wild.
the vette base and zo6 share a chassis. yes.

the vette base and zo6 have different suspensions, however.
consider that people like john lingenfelter upgrade the c5 suspension to zo6 parts for their suspension packages.

there is some major bs floating around in here.

people simply don't like the vette, and are putting it down.

the lotus is by no means (the esprit tt) a narrow car for country roads, any more than a vette is.

put them both on a race track. same track. who will win?

you guys get so damn deep in your technical bs and namecalling that you forget the main purpose of why the thread was started. it wasn't started to dispute facts about a car, it was started to figure out which is, in your opinion, the better car.

for the price, and by the numbers, i'll take the zo6.

why is this so difficult?

so much strutting of technological knowledge, which, sadly, is pretty much irrelevant in most cases.

you guys end up whoring up a thread with these posts that could double as tech articles. yay.

Dont assume i havent seen American cars run. Once upon a time i got on a plane and flew over to the US of A to visit family. Interestingly for me, my uncle that lives out there owns a dealership. Do you see where this is going? I was far from impressed with the Camaro, though i have to say it wasnt me driving it, and it wasnt an SS (as far as i remember). Add to that the fact that the Camaro got some of the worst reviews ive ever seen / read over here, not kicking it down - like i say, its great at demolishing straights, but it wasnt built for twisty roads.

One visit and you say you can tell me how a built and tuned camaro will run? Just like the Lotus article above, you don't have the time nor experience with the cars to determine that. No, a stock camaro isn't built for turns, it really isn't built for the dragstrip either, the only thing that leads people to that is the large engine. If it were built for the dragstrip it would share the mustangs 4 link rear suspension, which plants the rear tires better on straight acceleration, or at least would have a tubular or boxed rear suspension.

The system it does use is a 3 link with stamped steel control arms, panhard bars and such, which is inferior for straight line performance and terrible in strength for roadracing. It also uses a unibody design without any kind of solid connector for the front & rear subframe, anyone who's had my year camaro and put a set of those on can attest to the difference they & a new rear suspension make. Yes it's a good bit of work, but you also have to remember (or learn, whichever) that these cars were built for a market where modifying your own car is the thing, and often the only way to please everyone is to set a low pricetag and allow them to do what they like with it. That causes the cheap setup stock, considering it has the potential to run with corvettes, and thus many other sportscars, when built, the low tag is a fairly good argain if you can modify your car yourself.

One visit and you say you can tell me how a built and tuned camaro will run? Just like the Lotus article above, you don't have the time nor experience with the cars to determine that.
What do you want me to do? live in the damned thing? Besides, we're talking stock, not tuned. Good tuners can work miracles. I mean christ, someone turned the Rover 45 into a good car (MG ZS) :eek: give the man a medal!
So lets stick to stock please.

No, a stock camaro isn't built for turns,
I know... thats what i was saying...

it really isn't built for the dragstrip either, the only thing that leads people to that is the large engine. If it were built for the dragstrip it would share the mustangs 4 link rear suspension, which plants the rear tires better on straight acceleration, or at least would have a tubular or boxed rear suspension.

The system it does use is a 3 link...
I appreciate your technical knowledge but whether or not it was "built for the dragstrip" (what kind of factory car is built for dragging anyway, what a waste of time, resources, hell, waste of everything..) the camaro has straight line speed in abundance. And so you'd expect it to corner. Well I would anyway, regardless or not of tuning potential.

you also have to remember (or learn, whichever) that these cars were built for a market where modifying your own car is the thing, and often the only way to please everyone is to set a low pricetag and allow them to do what they like with it.

Ok, im certain many many owners modify their camaros, but does that mean the manufacturer shouldnt be bothered to give the car a set-up that at least matches its engine? What does that say about Chevy? There are lots of sorted (handling wise), affordable cars that have a large tuning following. Why doesnt Chevy do it in this case? Now these are just my thoughts: cutting costs, of course, and the fact that most buyers will be satisfied with the stock product. I dont have any numbers, i dont know who will, but a lot of people (probably the majority) wont bother messing around with the chassis of this "sports car". If certain parts are so weak, and the car is aimed at tuning freaks, most of these people will upgrade them immediately. Yes, different people have different tastes, but why not use parts of a high standard for those who dont want to mod the car? As you say, the main point of attraction to the camaro is the engine. So why dont they just supply that? Saves them the bother of building the rest of the thing...

Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the car, hell i dream of cheap American performance (corvettes for the price of a full gas tank here in the UK) but with the development of the camaro and many other american cars there just seems to be a laziness and ineptitude that is inexcusable from the 'giants of the global auto sector'.

crazyjay i do understand where your coming from, but I think you've kinda answered your own question as to why these cars can't be tuned with parts of higher standard. The main key im thinking is the fact that its built in an economy which has the highest number of automobiles being built and driven than every other economy in the world. Do you think for one second that if the European market could handle as many cars as the american market handles that the quality would still remain the same?
But if your not satisfied for the base Z28 camaro than you could always buy the SS, or even the Trans Am with WS6 suspension package. A little better as far as using a higher standard of parts, that provides much more stability than the base model. I do belive they put down a skidpad of over .9g's which is pretty impressive if you ask me. Skidpad isn't much of anything these days (although as widley its used you would think otherwise) but its still a comparitive measurment that all cars can be compared to.
But it does all come down to the consumers choice. You can buy a 25k american sports car, or spend at least 50k on a comparable (performance wise) european sports car.

What do you want me to do? live in the damned thing? Besides, we're talking stock, not tuned. Good tuners can work miracles. I mean christ, someone turned the Rover 45 into a good car (MG ZS) :eek: give the man a medal!
So lets stick to stock please.


I know... thats what i was saying...


I appreciate your technical knowledge but whether or not it was "built for the dragstrip" (what kind of factory car is built for dragging anyway, what a waste of time, resources, hell, waste of everything..) the camaro has straight line speed in abundance. And so you'd expect it to corner. Well I would anyway, regardless or not of tuning potential.



Ok, im certain many many owners modify their camaros, but does that mean the manufacturer shouldnt be bothered to give the car a set-up that at least matches its engine? What does that say about Chevy? There are lots of sorted (handling wise), affordable cars that have a large tuning following. Why doesnt Chevy do it in this case? Now these are just my thoughts: cutting costs, of course, and the fact that most buyers will be satisfied with the stock product. I dont have any numbers, i dont know who will, but a lot of people (probably the majority) wont bother messing around with the chassis of this "sports car". If certain parts are so weak, and the car is aimed at tuning freaks, most of these people will upgrade them immediately. Yes, different people have different tastes, but why not use parts of a high standard for those who dont want to mod the car? As you say, the main point of attraction to the camaro is the engine. So why dont they just supply that? Saves them the bother of building the rest of the thing...

Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the car, hell i dream of cheap American performance (corvettes for the price of a full gas tank here in the UK) but with the development of the camaro and many other american cars there just seems to be a laziness and ineptitude that is inexcusable from the 'giants of the global auto sector'.

well, I agree that it could be better, and it should be, but considering that it costs less then half of a corvette at roughly 22K (for those smart enough to buy the Z28 or Formula and not the overpriced SS or TA) you're not going to get much more then a decent modding platform. I suppose you could compare stock to stock, but that'd be eliminating the whole point of the car so of course it won't do as well. You won't get a car built as well as a corvette for half the price, the parts will cost too much.

If you don't want to mod your car, then the F body is definitly not for you. That, unfortunatly, is why the japanese sportscars of the 80s & 90's got so popular, they were built better from the factory, people didn't care they cost more, it was easier to do. It's not the chassis, it's the suspension hard pieces, the control arms, the torque arm, the panhard ar and such. Cheap pieces in themselves, and it only takes bolts to install new ones, or a fairly small sum for a shop to od it, but its still extra effort on their part, and god forbid they actually mod their car themselves.

You're dead on with many customers being satisfied, because the majority don't know handling from the hole in their head, but that doesn't mean it's a poor platform either, it's actually fairly good on a decently smooth track. It simply suffers from bean counters and cost cutting, with those few pieces added it turns into a very competent track car.

crazyjay i do understand where your coming from, but I think you've kinda answered your own question as to why these cars can't be tuned with parts of higher standard. The main key im thinking is the fact that its built in an economy which has the highest number of automobiles being built and driven than every other economy in the world. Do you think for one second that if the European market could handle as many cars as the american market handles that the quality would still remain the same?

I'm sorry, i dont buy that. #1, you underestimate how many cars are sold and driven throughout Europe. The population of the EU is almost 400m, thats more than the US. That doesnt necessarily mean more cars, in fact probably not, but its still a very sizeable market.
And #2, look at japanese companies, they sell staggering amounts of cars all over the world and the quality of their cars (generally speaking) is none the worse for it. It's quite the opposite. With economies of scale you make more cost savings which should be at least be partly invested into your product. I do appreciate that cars are cheap in the US but a lot of these cheap cars are cheap for a reason. I guess there are certain issues troubling US auto comps, such as health care and what have you, but still, a sub-standard product is a sub-standard product.


But it does all come down to the consumers choice. You can buy a 25k american sports car, or spend at least 50k on a comparable (performance wise) european sports car.
And long may there be choice. I simply dont consider many of these american "sports cars" sports cars, if you see what i mean. But hey, if i lived in the US and couldnt stump up 50k, then id be glad to have the american alternatives available. But i wouldnt call them comparable. The emphasis on power i like, but I'd certainly be aware of their shortcomings.

I dont really like most American sports cars...they are just too big/heavy. Even the corvette isnt small.
And Camaros/Firebirds/Mustangs, even though they are extremely fast, are big, and heavy. They handle OK, and get good track times, but, its all about the power.
But then again, most of the cars from Europe that I really do like, arent available here. Take the Elise, for example. No car with 120hp in America can run to 60 in the low 5's. .

And American sedans/average cars, forget about it. Malibum, Taurus, Intrepid, these dont exactly scream excitement.

I'm sorry, i dont buy that. #1, you underestimate how many cars are sold and driven throughout Europe. The population of the EU is almost 400m, thats more than the US. That doesnt necessarily mean more cars, in fact probably not, but its still a very sizeable market.
And #2, look at japanese companies, they sell staggering amounts of cars all over the world and the quality of their cars (generally speaking) is none the worse for it. It's quite the opposite. With economies of scale you make more cost savings which should be at least be partly invested into your product. I do appreciate that cars are cheap in the US but a lot of these cheap cars are cheap for a reason. I guess there are certain issues troubling US auto comps, such as health care and what have you, but still, a sub-standard product is a sub-standard product.


And long may there be choice. I simply dont consider many of these american "sports cars" sports cars, if you see what i mean. But hey, if i lived in the US and couldnt stump up 50k, then id be glad to have the american alternatives available. But i wouldnt call them comparable. The emphasis on power i like, but I'd certainly be aware of their shortcomings.
$22k = approx £13k, which wont get you much in the UK. Ok, so at 22k its good VFM. But only for the idiots who “don’t know handling from the hole in their head”. As we've agreed these people are the majority so surely, from the bean-counting factory’s POV, modding potential isn’t the whole point of the car.. Call me a cynic but I find it hard to understand / believe that only a few cheap parts transform the whole car. Why wouldn’t they be fitted from the start? Then you’d have a $23k car that handles and goes well. Surely the bargain of all bargains...

Many aftermarket type mods arent fitted for a number of reasons;
1) Cost: they are usually more expensive, and they have a price point to meat
2) Emissions: The parts often increase emissions, thereby making it harder for the manufactures to get the car certified.
3) Fuel economy: In some (most cases), it will degrade fuel economy. Since automakers have to meet CAFE numbers, and they cut it pretty close already, so, that presents another problem.
4) Noise: Most high performance parts are noiser. They might sound 'better' to most of us, but, carmakers are burecratic, and they want to keep a certain level of quiet.
5) Manufacturing considerations; It might be much harder to mass produce a car by using interestingly shaped parts, rather than standard fare.
6) Aftermarket tuners have time to tune their specialty parts. Big manufactures do to a certain extent to, but, they have other considerations to.

I'm sorry, i dont buy that. #1, you underestimate how many cars are sold and driven throughout Europe. The population of the EU is almost 400m, thats more than the US. That doesnt necessarily mean more cars, in fact probably not, but its still a very sizeable market.
And #2, look at japanese companies, they sell staggering amounts of cars all over the world and the quality of their cars (generally speaking) is none the worse for it. It's quite the opposite. With economies of scale you make more cost savings which should be at least be partly invested into your product. I do appreciate that cars are cheap in the US but a lot of these cheap cars are cheap for a reason. I guess there are certain issues troubling US auto comps, such as health care and what have you, but still, a sub-standard product is a sub-standard product.

For one the european economy is a collection of many different economies summed into 1 'big economy'. Although europe's population may be greater than the us, like you said, their are probably still less cars in europe being driven than in the us. And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles.

I don't see how the US auto industries cars are 'sub-standard'. Considering that every vehicle produced here has to go through a series of state and federal regulations, and meet specific 'standards' before they can even be certified. I'm sure that the standards in the US are equal, if not better, than the standards in just about every other country. And if this was the case, I could impose that european cars are 'sub-standard' to american cars. Do you see how silly that sounds?

And long may there be choice. I simply dont consider many of these american "sports cars" sports cars, if you see what i mean. But hey, if i lived in the US and couldnt stump up 50k, then id be glad to have the american alternatives available. But i wouldnt call them comparable. The emphasis on power i like, but I'd certainly be aware of their shortcomings.

Their are some european 'sports cars' that I would refer to as 'sports sedans'.
I'm not sure what you exactly mean by the term shortcomings, but i'm guessing it may be enfluenced by the reliability and maintence involved in large displacment engines... Which car would require more maintence and reliability, a Z06, or a espirit twin turbo? I know which one I would rather have if somthing were to go wrong.

You are forgetting something- European makers sell also to Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Middle East, Africa and the Americas as well as Europe- American cars are rarely seen outside North America, so technically there is greater output all together in Europe, however it is spread across many makers, which tends to be why the quality of cars made in Europe is (usually) pretty damn good (Alfa Romeo (not the 147), older FIAT's and Lancia's are the exception here) American cars are also pretty damned basic in design- pushrods, live rear axles (although fast diminishing) etc......Are not uncommon on the cars, though Ford and the Chrysler Corp have switched to Independent suspension and Overhead Cams in thier newer cars for the most part, they seem no better or worse off for it........

ANYWAY- output of vehicles has nothing to do with quality control- Toyota Corolla- it's the worlds biggest selling car ever, how often do they let anybody down??? Not a lot, same with the Honda Civic, Nissan MAxima, Nissan Micra and pretty much every other JApanese made car-line ever made- and these people are literally supplying the whole world, so output is NOT an excuse.

I also hear that the Gen III V8's from Chevy are sometimes disastrous in some cases of reliability- ESPECIALLY when tuned- Holden found that one out the hard way on some HSV and Calais/SS V8 cars, I can't even remember what went wrong, but I have the article in a Wheels magazine somewhere in my 2002/2003 piles, so I'll dig it out.

NB: It could have been HOlden that messed up the V8, not Chevy, but it's suspicious either way...It'd be interesting to see if American sustomers had similar problems

You are forgetting something- European makers sell also to Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Middle East, Africa and the Americas as well as Europe- American cars are rarely seen outside North America, so technically there is greater output all together in Europe, however it is spread across many makers, which tends to be why the quality of cars made in Europe is (usually) pretty damn good.

Sounds closed minded to say that american cars are rarely seen outside north america.
Their is a greater output? Output is equal to production in relation to time, not how many places you can send your cars to...so technically thats incorrect.
Their are more than american cars produced in america mind you. There just happens to be an SIA automotive plant about 10miles from where I live.

ANYWAY- output of vehicles has nothing to do with quality control.
Have you ever worked on an assembly line before?

It's not closed minded, because aside from the Jeep range and a few Chryslers, they aren't seen outside America, for sale new, thats a fact

That must explain why the Saab 9-5 (a division of GM) is considered to be the safest car in Sweden 03' conducted by the Folksam Insurance Company.
Another one of those 'sub-standard' american vehicles...

Everyone, remember, that a car well suited to one environment might be crap in another, and vice versa.
In the states, say, someone needs to drive from their house, to a main road, to a highway, and then take a few turns off the highway to get to work. Thats all that car really has to do. Why would they need more expensive, complicated, suspensions? People who drive like this are more concerned with smooth rides (live axles are good enough for this on highways).
Of course, around a curvy mountain road, said car would be absolute ass.

Different strokes for different folks.

$22k = approx £13k, which wont get you much in the UK. Ok, so at 22k its good VFM. But only for the idiots who “don’t know handling from the hole in their head”. As we've agreed these people are the majority so surely, from the bean-counting factory’s POV, modding potential isn’t the whole point of the car.. Call me a cynic but I find it hard to understand / believe that only a few cheap parts transform the whole car. Why wouldn’t they be fitted from the start? Then you’d have a $23k car that handles and goes well. Surely the bargain of all bargains...

The stamped pieces probably cost in the $1 range for GM to make, more or less depending on the size and amount of material to be made. Tubular ones from an aftermarket company cost in the $200 range for the smaller to $400 for the larger, more complicated ones, so you can see where the bean counters would have their field day.

It's not just a matter of the price, GM has to make a profit on all the pieces, you need to pay for the machines to have them made, the men to run them, and the cost of the material. It's not very cut & dry.

As to the amount of difference they make, well, this is where knowing and modifying the cars comes into play. I'm not going to go too far into it unless people are either going to actually listen, plus I don't want to hijack the thread, but to put it simply... The pieces holding the axle to the chassis on an IRS car are firm, they don't flex, bend or anything and that's good. On the camaro, they can get away with having stamped pieces that flex because there won't be catastrophic failure if the axle moves out of place.

The only things holding it to the chassis deflect and bend when placed under load,a nd I'm sure you know what a dancing rear axle will do to a cars ability to turn, which is where the massive oversteer stigma (and admittedly, problems) come in. Like I said, I can post some pictures and show what I mean, but I'm not going that far into it as I'm sure most don't care.

To Jimster, that obviously is a very biased article, the LS1/6 is an extremely reliable engine and has won many awards from this sites favored magazines. The aussie spec LS1 is the same as the US, since all of them are built here and shipped over to OZ. Here the worst problem we've had with them is some piston slap during cold starts, which as anyone will tell you is harmless and common with large clearance engines, a must with an aluminum block, but many made it out to be much worse then it really is.

For one the european economy is a collection of many different economies summed into 1 'big economy'. Although europe's population may be greater than the us, like you said, their are probably still less cars in europe being driven than in the us. And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles.
So what if it’s many different economies summed into one big one? The US is basically the same thing..
Besides, #1, As Jimmy pointed out, European car makers sell in large quantities in Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc.. and I’d bet my last dollar that many manymore European cars are sold in the US than US cars sold in Europe.
And #2, as I said before, Japanese car makers sell vast numbers of cars all over the world and set the highest manufacturing standards. Producing more vehicles doesn’t necessarily mean your quality has to suffer for it.

I don't see how the US auto industries cars are 'sub-standard'. Considering that every vehicle produced here has to go through a series of state and federal regulations, and meet specific 'standards' before they can even be certified.
I don’t mean those kinds of standards. I mean in terms of the car’s ability, if you like. American roads require easy progress of long distances. Consequently many American cars are still heavy, gas-guzzling beasts that can’t handle. And interior design and quality of materials used – although improving in new models – still leaves a lot to be desired. My uncle, vice president of a large bank - has had a series of American luxury cars that (I thought) had appalling interiors. Thank god he’s finally seen the light and traded in for a bmw.

I'm sure that the standards in the US are equal, if not better, than the standards in just about every other country. And if this was the case, I could impose that european cars are 'sub-standard' to american cars. Do you see how silly that sounds?
I assure you, the standards im talking about are not. On the whole, I believe the average European car is vastly superior to the average American car. However American cars are mostly much, much better vfm.

Their are some european 'sports cars' that I would refer to as 'sports sedans'.
... and some of these sports sedans are far superior drives than some of the so-called American sports cars..

I'm not sure what you exactly mean by the term shortcomings, but i'm guessing it may be enfluenced by the reliability and maintence involved in large displacment engines... Which car would require more maintence and reliability, a Z06, or a espirit twin turbo? I know which one I would rather have if somthing were to go wrong.
The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

That must explain why the Saab 9-5 (a division of GM) is considered to be the safest car in Sweden 03' conducted by the Folksam Insurance Company.
Another one of those 'sub-standard' american vehicles...
Do you regard Saab as an American car? I dont. Has GM's ownership of Saab transformed them into the makers of these extremely safe cars?

The stamped pieces probably cost in the $1 range for GM to make, more or less depending on the size and amount of material to be made. Tubular ones from an aftermarket company cost in the $200 range for the smaller to $400 for the larger, more complicated ones, so you can see where the bean counters would have their field day.

It's not just a matter of the price, GM has to make a profit on all the pieces, you need to pay for the machines to have them made, the men to run them, and the cost of the material. It's not very cut & dry.

Yes, but correct me if im wrong GM is the largest auto maker in the world. Think of the colossal purchasing power! How many Camaros and other GM cars will be able to use these superior components? GM can get these parts for nothing and still make a profit, but as you say, the bean counters ruin it for the enthusiasts.

As long as the pictures you want to post arent too huge, go ahead and post them, im interested in seeing them.

So what if it’s many different economies summed into one big one? The US is basically the same thing..
Besides, #1, As Jimmy pointed out, European car makers sell in large quantities in Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc.. and I’d bet my last dollar that many manymore European cars are sold in the US than US cars sold in Europe.

so is that suppost to mean that european cars are better? I'm not clearly seeing your point.

I don’t mean those kinds of standards. I mean in terms of the car’s ability, if you like. American roads require easy progress of long distances. Consequently many American cars are still heavy, gas-guzzling beasts that can’t handle. And interior design and quality of materials used – although improving in new models – still leaves a lot to be desired. My uncle, vice president of a large bank - has had a series of American luxury cars that (I thought) had appalling interiors. Thank god he’s finally seen the light and traded in for a bmw.

Well I'm sorry if the standards im refering to aren't supporting your bias but once again I still hardly see your point. If american roads require easy progress of long distances, then why would they need to be made with a complicated and more expensive suspension setup when a more basic design can just as easily fullfil the same expectations on the same roads? Merely because european cars will require a more complex and costly suspension system to suit their environment doesn't mean their better. And a interior design of high quality (in materials and craftsmenship) to get you from point a to point b also doesn't mean that a car is better than another. Thats a matter of preference if you ask me. And the gas-guzzling comment...please. I can name a handful of european cars that are far worse in gas comsumption than many american vehicles.

... and some of these sports sedans are far superior drives than some of the so-called American sports cars..

I hope a sports sedan is a far superior drive than a sports car reguardless of where its made.

The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

I'll agree that on average a european car will have a more 'ideal' setup to handle in more situations than an average american car. They need to be considering the conditions they will face vs. the conditions that are faced here. I also believe (as you do ) that a straight line pace is a very weak argument when referring to a cars ability to perform. Not all cars are built to meet a high expectation to perform reguardless of where it was made.


Everyone, remember, that a car well suited to one environment might be crap in another, and vice versa.
In the states, say, someone needs to drive from their house, to a main road, to a highway, and then take a few turns off the highway to get to work. Thats all that car really has to do. Why would they need more expensive, complicated, suspensions? People who drive like this are more concerned with smooth rides (live axles are good enough for this on highways).
Of course, around a curvy mountain road, said car would be absolute ass.

Different strokes for different folks.

isn't that the truth.

so is that suppost to mean that european cars are better? I'm not clearly seeing your point.

This is your own point, how do you not get this? i replied to your argument that:
1. product standards fall as production levels increase, and
2. US produces more cars than Europe.

Remember writing this:
And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles

?
I was just echoing Jimster's theme in informing you that European car makers probably make as many - or possibly even more - cars than US producers. Need we go further on this one?

Well I'm sorry if the standards im refering to aren't supporting your bias but once again I still hardly see your point

you're kidding, right? bias? :disappoin
your understanding of "sub-standard" veered towards telling me that american cars have to meet "federal regulations" and "specific standards"... you dont think european cars have to meet certain specifications, such as emissions, or EuroNCAP?? :rolleyes:
meeting these government-set requirements/standards is taken for granted, after all, all cars must do this to be released so it cant be a factor within the comparison of two modern cars.

what do you think i mean by standard? when i say the standard of a product i mean how it performs, how well its put together, these sorts of criteria... not that it must have seatbelts and 4 wheels...

If american roads require easy progress of long distances, then why would they need to be made with a complicated and more expensive suspension setup when a more basic design can just as easily fullfil the same expectations on the same roads? Merely because european cars will require a more complex and costly suspension system to suit their environment doesn't mean their better.
ARGH!!!! :eek7:
This whole comparison revolved around handling :screwy:
you're repeating something everyone's already said!?!?!
Thats what i criticised, the (typical) american car's handling.
i did acknowledge that american roads do require a car that will go long, straight distances effortlessly... BUT, if you want to call your american "sports car" a sports car, then it had better handle. And some dont. At all. comprende?

And a interior design of high quality (in materials and craftsmenship) to get you from point a to point b also doesn't mean that a car is better than another. Thats a matter of preference if you ask me.
Yes, in a way it is only a matter of preference, but if you want to pass off your car as a "luxury car", it should have a luxury interior. And some of these so called american luxury cars have a shitty interior. Again the consumer wouldnt be happy, at least I wouldnt. I want my sports car to handle, and my luxury car to be luxurious.
Anyway, why shouldnt the consumer expect more? The quality of products used / design / interior features has sky-rocketed in (most) european cars over the last 10 years to the extent where a £7k VW is built like a mercedes benz inside (& out).

And the gas-guzzling comment...please. I can name a handful of european cars that are far worse in gas comsumption than many american vehicles.
no, not "please".. far from it... the point i made was very valid... Name your handful, so what? Compare the number of V8's or large displacement cars sold in the US to the amount sold in Europe. Ish no think so. The most common cars here are 4 pot hatches or 50mpg diesels.

I hope a sports sedan is a far superior drive than a sports car reguardless of where its made
errr.. what? isnt that supposed to be the other way around? :confused:

Different strokes for different folks.
isn't that the truth.
Yes. So lets not compare us to euro handling, since we've so obviously agreed on that one :)

This is your own point, how do you not get this? i replied to your argument that:
1. product standards fall as production levels increase, and
2. US produces more cars than Europe.

I don't recall saying #1. Thats a faulty paraphrase. I said that its tougher to maintain quality when producing more vehicles. Those are two different statements. And if you think that it isn't then your seriously overestimating many factors on an assembly line.
As for #2, I do believe their are more vehicles produced in the US.

As for the rest of it, I'm not even going to bother replying to it. I'm not adding anymore fuel to this fire just so it can be chopped up and criticized to an extent beyond reasoning. Your obviously set on to your opinion on the matter, and i'm tired of reasoning some justification for mine. Lets just try and end this on as good of terms possible.

shouldn't that mean something? and i wouldn't exactly call that track small, i don't know how its spelled but its a famous japanese race track, its pronounced skuba circuit. i mean in a race, the faster more agile car wins am i not right?

No, when you have cars as equal in performance as here, it only means the car in front wins. It's hard to pull fast lap times if you have slower cars in front of you.


if the 575 or 550 was that much faster, it could've atleast kept up with the top 3 instead of being dead last.
I never said it was a lot faster, I simply said it was faster.
Put the two cars up agains each other, on one track, with one driver, on the same day, both the 550 and the 575 will lap a track faster.


And Kurtdg19, STFU! You don't know what you are talking about, period.

Do you regard Saab as an American car? I dont. Has GM's ownership of Saab transformed them into the makers of these extremely safe cars?

the new 9-3 is the best car saab has ever produced, and it rides on a GM designed chassis of amazing stiffness and design, so yes, saab has benefited from GMs ownership. They're recieving superior powertrains and chassis from it, and saabs' european interior designs (which i can't stand) are rubbing off on GM, as seen through the new cadillacs and the new malibu (a great car, no matter what anyone says about it's looks) as well as upcoming cars like the C6 corvette.

GM is fully capable of doing better, the reason they don't is simply because they have the unions to fight with and bean counters to get around. Holden designs have shown this, the new GTO's have very praised interior aesthetics and I've neve heard of anybody knocking their other designs. If they can do it there, they can do it here, and don't think they havent heard what people are bitching about.

First it was gas mileage, they've fixed that, and in many cases surpassed the imports, then it was reliability, they fixed that in a short time event hough the stigma lasts. Now it's interior design, sooner or later people will run out of things to complain about, changing things mid run isn't possible for a large company, the new generation of cars are coming out and they're going to do away with all of these complaints.

The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

My 94 bonneville gets between 28 and 32 MPG on the highway, and roughly 18 in town, excellent numbers compared to what my mothers old 94 accord got, about the same in town and at most 30 on the highway. It also rides nicer then her car ever did and was quite a bit more reliable. They cost nearly the same new, so why would you buy an accord over a bonneville? The interior? please, I hope you dont drive down the highway stroking the dash. I have no rattles nor squeaks and the ubttons all work, the gauges are easy to read and I have a massive amount of interior room. The seats are large and comfortable, and my ass usually can't feel the difference between GM and corinthian leather through my pants, so usually I only care about comfort.

Does the accord handle better then my car? dont know, never tracked either one, but the handling ability in incliment weather was a night & day difference, I would rather drive my RWD camaro then her accord. Both responded fine to emergency lane changes, so any other handling to me is useless as all it does is get me from point a to b.

I never said it was a lot faster, I simply said it was faster.Put the two cars up agains each other, on one track, with one driver, on the same day, both the 550 and the 575 will lap a track faster.

Faster then a Z06? do you even READ what you type before you post it?

to crazay:

http://www.fbody.com/jim/suspension/suspension01.jpg

Here's a link to an Fbody with all of the modifications I spoke of, to give you an idea of the geometry involved. The topmost bar is the panhard bar (PHB), it locates the axle and is what resists it from moving left to right. the silver bar with yellow brackets following the driveshaft sis the torque arm, it's the main support that keeps the axle in place when you're accelerating or braking, transmits forward thrust to the chassis. The yellow square bars are the lower control arms, they keep the axle from rotating in a clock fashion, and the yellow triangular brackets lowest in the picture are the subframe connectors.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=503/25607Aphb3.jpg

Thats a picture of a tubular PHB compared to a stamped one, the LCAs, Torque arm and PHB are all just like it, and as you can imagine, adding any kind of force to that stamped piece would cause the walls of it to flex out and it would basically become useless. If the LCAs flex then the rearend begins to rotate like clock hands, causing rear steer problems. If the PHB flexes, then the axle begins to shift left or right, I've been in a car that bent the LCAs because the PHB flexed so bad that it allowed the axle to shift so far off to the left. If the torque arm flexes then there really isn't a handling loss, but going to an aftermarket torque arm allows me to chosoe how much squat or anti-squat I want, which is key with road holding and throttling out of a turn as i'm sure you know.

The subframe connectors dont even exist unless you have a convertible car, and event hen they're stamped pieces. there are basically 2 small frame sections on an Fbody that are held together by the rest of the body, and I'm sure you realize that not having any good, solid steel bracing would allow each subframe to flex the body in between and do whaever they want.

Even if these pieces cost $5 more a pop to produce, with the Fbody, up until the 4th gen, selling 200+K a year between the 2 models, thats over a million dollars more per year, and I highly doubt that tubular steel or aluminum only costs $5 more then the stamped steel pieces.

It's not the best track car ever made, but the Fbody has alot of potential most people don't realize is there because of the stock performance.

Ok I'm not trying to compare the handling between american and european cars. I was under the impression that you thought that european cars are better than american cars. Having been evolved around these kinds of cars, its kinda hard to just accept somthing else as better. I don't really think its a matter between which is better anyways.(cause in most cases, its a matter of who likes what better)

Is it even possible to compare which has better handling anyways? From what Deakins says, you can't measure handling. And if this is the case, I couldn't see how either could be compared by handling. If you think im wrong, just tell me. Or you can go the way deakins choose to and make yet another insult.

No, you can't measure it.
But if you know what handling is, all it takes is a test drive or two, to decide.

And I stand by my comment, you are wasting precious bandwith.

I don't recall saying #1. Thats a faulty paraphrase. I said that its tougher to maintain quality when producing more vehicles. Those are two different statements.
If saying "it is tougher to maintain quality when producing more vehicles" isnt an attempt of justifying that american cars' standards have fallen due to the highest production levels in the world (which is what you're so stubbornly insisting despite having no facts) we're speaking different languages. So you were just saying that it's a difficult task but one that is readily achieved by the industry? :screwy:

This has gotten silly :disappoin

Faster then a Z06? do you even READ what you type before you post it?


I said it was faster than a 360. Quote me where I said it is faster than a Z06 please.

I said it was faster than a 360. Quote me where I said it is faster than a Z06 please.

I seem to have misread it then, my mistake.