hey i need to know which is better for overall street racing.. i know that awd launches faster.. but fwd/rwd cars will catch up and surpass the awd cars.. but given a sufficient amount of HP/turbo boost any car can be fast.. so anyone know which one is better?

I say RWD...

In the world of auto racing, about 95% of all race cars are RWD.

but the R32 GT-R was undefeated in its debut season in JGTC because it was the only 4wd race car.

I'd have to go with either AWD or RWD for street racing. But if cornered I'll say AWD because you did say "overall street racing" and AWD is a very versatile setup because you get alot more than a good launch. You get much more predictable handling in allroad situations and such...

The downside is that you lose more HP due to friction in AWD than in RWD or FWD. Also, an AWD setup tends to be heavier than the others.

Soooo, I go with AWD.



Then again I'm biased... :grinyes:

RWD for me.

AWD launches are sweet, but they simply lose too much power in transfer for me.

FWD has too many issues to deal w/, and is by far the toughest to get traction, so that isn't really even close.

RWD by an inch...

FWD def isn't in the running.

Between RWD and AWD I say RWD, less weight, less power loss, better weight transfer in a striaght line.

RWD for me because much of the racing I get is from rolls...

I Would Go With Rwd Because Rwd Loses About ~10% Of Flywheel Power And Awd Loses About ~15% Of Flywheel Power.
Now If You Are Going To Tune A High Horsepower Car Were Traction Is Going To Be A Big Problem With A Rwd Setup Than Awd Would Be The Best But Otherwise Rwd Is The Way To Go

Plus A Rwd Car With Wide Rims/tires Gets Plenty Of Traction For Fast Launches!

Plus A Rwd Car With Wide Rims/tires Gets Plenty Of Traction For Fast Launches!

plus, u've got physics on ur side... :biggrin:

AWD
Its more fun
.:C.H.R.I.S:.

AWD of course

Do you spend more time in the 0-40 range where AWD owns at, or the 100+ range where 2wd owns?

Read below or skip to "sumed up" for you lazy bastards.

I'm up for awd because of the badass launches. It might start to loose at the top end, but i don't plan to be going over 100mph to often. You may loose some power and everything thanks to the awd, but you can launch faster and you don't have to worry about traction problems. (Something that has plagued me in my RWD car.) Also, when you launch, you can launch it in fairly high RPM's, which helps to reduce turbo lag :) Toss in a huge turbo and your good to go :) (or am i just smoking to much of my crackpipe?)

But i'm not saying RWD is bad or anything, it's just i prefer AWD. My opinion is probably a little biased because i live where it snows, rains, sleets, icey roads and whatever the hell else the weather feels like throwing at us. So i prefer to have better traction.

To sum it up.

AWD because of the badass launches (i have a video of a high 8's to 9 second talon tsi launching at the drag strip if you guys want. It looks like it was shot out of a cannon. :)), traction and the fact i live in a place where it snowy, icy, rainy and slipery a fare bit of the year.

RWD comes close close close second.

FWD is definatly not the best choice for racing.

Also, isn't there some system out right now that has like 15% power to front wheel and the rest rear. Or have i been puffing to much of my crackpipe lately?

in the dry then its either RWD or MR. but for bad traction i would dream of a AWD. i mean i hate it when my car is undrivable in the winter because of the snow, and i hate it when its super dangerious for me to drive in the rain as well. and its been raining ALOT!!! :mad:

Id say FWD because its plain and simple look at the gm FWD drag car using a 1000 hp Ecotec 4banger running 7's

thx guys now its between awd and rwd, gotta think.. what car to get next.. my accord jus can't cut it.. gotta get a wrx/sti and pay it off.. or a 350z.. well i'll wait a lil more when i got more cash

Id say FWD because its plain and simple look at the gm FWD drag car using a 1000 hp Ecotec 4banger running 7's


1. That has nothing to do with street cars

2. The same setup, but RWD, would be faster.

1. That has nothing to do with street cars

2. The same setup, but RWD, would be faster.


:iamwithst


I do believe, You are right sir.

RWD for me, plus who says AWD will always out-launch a RWD? Slap on some drag radials or slicks and lets see where Mr. AWD is at :p :bananasmi

well if both the rwd and awd had z rated street tires, then as we all know, the awd should out launch it. if the rwd had slicks, and awd had z rated street tires, the awd should still out launch it, but of course it would be much closer.

1. That has nothing to do with street cars

2. The same setup, but RWD, would be faster.


as redneck said.....you be right he be wrong



man I O3nz teh grammer :iceslolan



anyway RWD is much better than a FWD setup especially in drag racing



the only weakness that i see in rwd is during wet icy or snow conditions.....in those case RWD cars are much harder to control

Under normal conditions, the difference in performance between a FWD and RWD car would be so minimal it wouldn't even matter. Around corners, RWD has an advantage over FWD. However, if there were corners, and any amount of slippery stuff (be it rain, snow, ice, or gravel) FWD would pretty much punch RWD in the teeth, and AWD would be the overall winner.

For straight out drag-racing- AWD- by a nose over RWD- FWD isn't quite as good in this respect

BUT!


Show any nicely engineered FWD chassis (As you'd find in Honda, Alfa Romeo, Peugeot or some VW's) a road-course and then it's another story- the FWD understeer can be nearly eliminated by any decent driver (But it still won't round the corner as nicely as something driving the Rear Wheels- but the RWD tends to be more unstable) and generally show up many AWD and RWD Cars at the same time :D

Well thats basically what I've experienced when driving different drivetrains................It all comes down to preferences I guess.


EDIT: OK I was a little optimisitc when I said some FWD VW's- the best ones are still the Mk1 and Mk2 Golfs......:D

You guys are forgetting he's talking about street cars. No drag slicks, or even "street legal" cheater slicks. And you have to be expected to perform in any condition, potholes, gravel, dirt, off camber corners, blind corners, etc, not just racetrack conditions. You have to have a confidence inspiring car, and it has to be forgiving enough that you can easily recover when things do get bad, there's no sandpits and tire barriers on the outside of corners in the real world.

AWD is definately NOT the optimal setup for track racing, but it is on the road. Look at rally, that's probably the only series that actually runs races on real world roads in real world conditions (not all rallies are on dirt). And what's the setup of choice in rally cars?

There's my opinion anyways, on the kind of performance that matters to me. I'm sure some of you could care less about some of the things I mentioned.

You guys are forgetting he's talking about street cars. No drag slicks, or even "street legal" cheater slicks. And you have to be expected to perform in any condition, potholes, gravel, dirt, off camber corners, blind corners, etc, not just racetrack conditions. You have to have a confidence inspiring car, and it has to be forgiving enough that you can easily recover when things do get bad, there's no sandpits and tire barriers on the outside of corners in the real world.

AWD is definately NOT the optimal setup for track racing, but it is on the road. Look at rally, that's probably the only series that actually runs races on real world roads in real world conditions (not all rallies are on dirt). And what's the setup of choice in rally cars?

There's my opinion anyways, on the kind of performance that matters to me. I'm sure some of you could care less about some of the things I mentioned.


i agree with that....in controled track conditions RWD is the better setup but considering that most streets suck and the surface can change anytime on you not to mention rain, snow, dirt, ice etc.....in those conditions AWD is nice to have

awd isn't good on a track
oh, i guess there's no such thing as an evo7 or 8
and i guess those were just fairytales when someone said there was such thing as an sti,
2 cars with some of the best handling out, drivetrain AWD

didn't i sound like a dick when i said that :iceslolan

There are always exceptions, and even so, I could name 50 cars that aren't AWD that handle better than those 2.

Why do you think Porsce drops AWD from it's high performance track models? The high end street models, 911 turbo and 911 C4S, are AWD. The even more high dollar "track" models, 911 gt3, gt2, or gt1, are RWD

i'm calling your bluff :evillol:
name 50 cars for under 50grand that handle better
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
etc.....
btw where at in arkansas do you live, all my fam is from wilmar,arkansas

Id go with rwd, because of the weight issues.

I didn't say under 50 grand. The STi and EVO ARE great bargains, but they're not the end-all be-all of handlers.

I live in Paris, Arkansas.

well of course theres the enzo and gt40 and mclaren
but what about cars that you might actually see on the road
there really isn't none that can out handle the two
now modify a evo8 tothe price of a nsx and it will out handle mostly anything, not tryna get on mods but just the fact that those two cars are perfect examples of awd rally nasty handling capabilities.
unless you go into the $100,000 realm, there really is no car that out handles the two.

first off fwd is the devil. ask any one with a high horse power street car with fwd tractions sucks and you get wheel hop and torque steer. and yes rwd is great on that perfect day in a straight line.
but think about it awd is the way to go. you can do stuff you would never dream of in a fwd of rwd car. how a little less power to the wheels. to make up for it run 3 more lbs of boost and you are set.

by the way go with the evo over the sti you will definately regret it if you dont. and if you arent looking to spend that much money get a dsm.

Well, it all depends on the company. Some car makers have different approaches to making fast cars. Some companies don't like computer aided systems, ABS is known to be better overall in almost any condition...most race cars will not have it. lamborghini makes AWD cars that are top quality. But the company itself distances it self from any forms of racing. What it comes down to is what the customers are familiar with. Drivers feel comfortable in rwd cars with little electronic interference

and yes rwd is great on that perfect day in a straight line.



yes because F1 cars drive only in a straight line and never during rain....

yes because F1 cars drive only in a straight line and never during rain....

Like i kinda said before, it's all about the choice of the drivers and there development teams. Why spend money developing an AWD system when RWD works already? I mean thats the same logic with alot of car makers. Why improve when the current design works well enough for people to buy it.

yes because F1 cars drive only in a straight line and never during rain....

As in most touring car championships around the world, AWD was banned from Formula One a long time ago.

On the street I prefer FWD for traction. I know what you're thinking, traction? What the hell is he talking about. Try driving a RWD car in the snow or rain with big fat tubby tires on the back.

On the strip and track I prefer RWD. Nothing like physics helping you out on the lanuch.

And if I were rally racing then you have to give me AWD no questions asked.

As in most touring car championships around the world, AWD was banned from Formula One a long time ago.

I'm pretty sure that F1 cars were never AWD....i'll post this quetion in the f1 forum to be sure


from my knowlege RWD cars have a better ballance trough corners than AWD and are better suited for track racing

for example the RWD 911 are faster and sportier than the AWD versions...the awd are mainy designed for the average drive that cannot handle a highpowered RWD porsche

even the reason the enzo and the lambo's are AWD is because most buyers have no ideea how to handle such a high perf car...

the F50 and the F40 were much more pure sport cars than the enzo is and they were both RWD

from the super fast cars i can only think of a few cars with AWD...Enzo, Murci, Diablo, 911Awd

whyle the list with RWD is huge.....Zonda, Mclaren, F40, F50, Koenisegg, Viper, zo6, Modena, Maranello, Nsx, 911, 911GT3, Ford GT......and the list goes on and on


so why is that? obviously money is no object for some of this cars so why RWD if its inferior?


don't get me wrong i love AWD and for the street is very practical but on the track the RWD usually has the advantage

There were several awd Formula One cars in the late '60s, the Matra MS84, the McLaren M9A, the BRM P67 and the FF P99.
Whether they gave up on the idea or it was banned back there, I don't know.
But I do know it was banned in most touring car series because of the advantage.

There were several awd Formula One cars in the late '60s, the Matra MS84, the McLaren M9A, the BRM P67 and the FF P99.
Whether they gave up on the idea or it was banned back there, I don't know.
But I do know it was banned in most touring car series because of the advantage.


so interesting i had no ideea that there were awd car in f1....I'm going to do some research to see if they were banned or what happened to them



and its true in certain competitions AWD is banned but could that be because under certain circomstances AWD is better


still why would all those pure sports cars be RWD when they could easily be made in AWD?

And its true in certain competitions AWD is banned but could that be because under certain circomstances AWD is better

It could, but the Audi A4 pretty much dominated most european touring car series before 1997, and as far as I remember, the Nissan Skyline did the same thing in JTCC.


still why would all those pure sports cars be RWD when they could easily be made in AWD?

Bah, purists. ;) I don't know.
The closest I can come to compairing to identical cars, with and without AWD, would be the Porsche 911 Turbo versus the GT2 (both the 996).
Given the GT2 is a fair bit lighter, have more power, less buoyancy and bigger tires, it only managed to lap Nürburgring ten seconds faster.

One of the fastest, if not the fastest street legal car right now is AWD. The Bugatti Veyron :)

yes because F1 cars drive only in a straight line and never during rain....

I hope that was posted in sarcasm because if it wasn't your sooo wrong you'll have to make a u-turn to get near right.

F1 cars definitely DON'T only drive in a straight line and definitely DO race in the rain.

well of course theres the enzo and gt40 and mclaren
but what about cars that you might actually see on the road
there really isn't none that can out handle the two
now modify a evo8 tothe price of a nsx and it will out handle mostly anything, not tryna get on mods but just the fact that those two cars are perfect examples of awd rally nasty handling capabilities.
unless you go into the $100,000 realm, there really is no car that out handles the two.

Just because those 2 cars handle good as AWD, doesn't mean they wouldn't handle BETTER as RWD. The Cusco WRX is converted to RWD, because it simply works better on a prepared track.

i understand what your saying decoy, but the veyron also has 400 more hp than anything on the market, ? is can the veyron run on a track with the enzo, mclaren,koenigsegg and the rest of the big bad boys.
its not out yet, if i'm right and when it is released will it be the track king?

i understand what your saying decoy, but the veyron also has 400 more hp than anything on the market, ? is can the veyron run on a track with the enzo, mclaren,koenigsegg and the rest of the big bad boys.
its not out yet, if i'm right and when it is released will it be the track king?

It also goes faster then anything on the market so of course it has more horsepower.

I doubt it will be a track king because of the Veyron's price. Who would race a car that costs $2,000,000+ AUS ? From my limited knowledge of cars, I believe it would perform fairly well after a few test runs and a good driver. Will it perform as good as cars designed for racetracks? Like the enzo and everything. It's a tough decision, but i doubt it. I don't believe the Veyron was really designed to head to the track with. At least it doesn't look like it'd be the greatest track car.

I believe the Veyron has hit the tracks though, but only to show it off during a lunch break at a race. It was at Laguna Seca. The Veyron flew down the straightaway at a very high speed. But, it was to fast for the first turn and the driver spun the car out. The car somehow managed to miss the concrete wall though :) I think it was decided that it was the drivers fault and cold tires :( So this car isn't a track virgin :)

I guess my comment was not related to the discussion of RWD on race tracks. But I figured i might as well toss it in to support the fact that AWD is used in super cars :)

rwd is the best fwd sucks if u want traction in snow get awd GO RWD MUSCLE CARS!

I hope that was posted in sarcasm because if it wasn't your sooo wrong you'll have to make a u-turn to get near right.

F1 cars definitely DON'T only drive in a straight line and definitely DO race in the rain.

Hehehe, trust me, he was being sarcastic. :biggrin:

rwd is the best fwd sucks if u want traction in snow get awd GO RWD MUSCLE CARS!

Yeah, AWD drive will give you more traction on acceleration and more traction in a few instances, but in most cases turning on ice in AWD is just like RWD and FWD, you're going for a ride. It is thinking like that which gets a lot of SUV drivers around here into accidents in the winter.

yes because F1 cars drive only in a straight line and never during rain....


because i see so many F1 cars flying by me on the way to work!

i believe we are (should be) talking about street racing that was at least what i had in mind when i wrote that. thats what i thought the thread was about because i dont think he has enough money for one of those or could even get the groceries in it. (although that would be the most fun trip i ever took.
btw not trying to be a dick just justifying myself

its funny when suv owners think theyre invincible and get stuck...course that happened to me...it just goes to show u awd or fourwd does not make u invincible!

I hope that was posted in sarcasm because if it wasn't your sooo wrong you'll have to make a u-turn to get near right.

F1 cars definitely DON'T only drive in a straight line and definitely DO race in the rain.

you dare doubt me....were is that banning button...






wait.....poo...i'm not a mod.....













just j/k...yeah i was sarcastic...i was just trying to make a point....there seem to be a lot of people that thing AWD completelly dominates track racing and i was just trying to show that the fastest cars around a track namely f1 are RWD

yeah i totally understand rwd is better on the track. example: I am really into dsms and the big guys doing serious shit convert from awd to rwd. although john sheppard has run 8's in a stock appearring car, all real glass, and only carbonfiber is the hood so. just thought i'd give some useless information.

If by "Street Racing" you mean racing around streets in the dead of night with real live potholes and crappy road conditions then you better look at what you're running first.

If you're running turbo, you damn well better make sure you're running an AWD Grip Racer otherwise once you hit the drift (or you sling your ass around in a FWD using the ebrake) you're going to lose so much pressure off your turbo and you're gonna hit lag drifting around and ultimately your turbo means squat untill you hit the stretches. And if there's not many stretches you're gonna be SOL.

If you're running a supercharger or NA tuning, either or is fine. RWD is a bit flashier and probably a little faster because of your power to weight ratio and a good drift means you lose very little on speed and you come around again with traction without losing power (as you would in a turbo)

But since most street racers these days use Turbos instead of NA then AWD will be the way to go, slap on a few more PSI's and you'll wipe out the competition.

As for track driving, I would still say AWD. It seems the popular thing to do now with AWD is weld your rear diff. or sommat, it becomes more prone to weakening and damage but you gain some power. (or so I'm told)

and I can't say I'm biased but against FF's as I drive a FF Slushbox (for now... untill I get my 86 Corolla :D, or my R32)

:lol2:

:eek7:

If by "Street Racing" you mean racing around streets in the dead of night with real live potholes and crappy road conditions then you better look at what you're running first.

Okay, I'm still with you...

If you're running turbo, you damn well better make sure you're running an AWD Grip Racer otherwise once you hit the drift (or you sling your ass around in a FWD using the ebrake) you're going to lose so much pressure off your turbo and you're gonna hit lag drifting around and ultimately your turbo means squat untill you hit the stretches. And if there's not many stretches you're gonna be SOL.

Now you lost me :lol: OKay hold on here... "AWD grip racer"... you realize an AWD can drift, and a 2wd can "grip", right? And FWD can drift too, they don't have to use the e brake. And since most "drifters", at least the RWD ones, keep the gas pedal to the floor throughout the entire corner, that would actually keep the turbo spooled up better. And please don't tell me you actually street race around corners?

If you're running a supercharger or NA tuning, either or is fine. RWD is a bit flashier and probably a little faster because of your power to weight ratio and a good drift means you lose very little on speed and you come around again with traction without losing power (as you would in a turbo)

A "good drift" is exactly what you don't want to do if you're racing. Drifting is slow!

But since most street racers these days use Turbos instead of NA then AWD will be the way to go, slap on a few more PSI's and you'll wipe out the competition.

"Slap on a few more PSI's" :lol: Gotta remember that one!

As for track driving, I would still say AWD. It seems the popular thing to do now with AWD is weld your rear diff. or sommat, it becomes more prone to weakening and damage but you gain some power. (or so I'm told)

The fastest road racers in the world are RWD. Weld the rear diff? Yeah, if you want your car to handle like soggy butthole. Ever hear an old Chevy truck or something turn a corner, and the tires go "screech screech screech" over and over and the back end hops up and down? That's what happens when you try to turn with a welded rear diff

and I can't say I'm biased but against FF's as I drive a FF Slushbox (for now... untill I get my 86 Corolla :D, or my R32)

Well I'm biased

AWD ownz you

Mediocrity that is so true....


like the other night me my byddies were out street racing and this kid show up...and he was like Yo and we were like wusup foo....and he is like cool homies....and we were like.....3g buys in...and he like...hey i don't have any cash but i'll race you fo slips...and we like cool


so we race....and he takes us off teh line since tah foo was AWD...but i boot up my laptop and hit stage 2 so i get mo boost and check AIM...we of course hit a corner so i pull teh ebrake and do one of them D1 takumi touge drifts and he goes forward and crashes since he welded his rear differential and could not turn

lol

just j/k...yeah i was sarcastic...i was just trying to make a point....there seem to be a lot of people that thing AWD completelly dominates track racing and i was just trying to show that the fastest cars around a track namely f1 are RWD


Well, it's kinda hard to say if they are RWD because it's the best option or is it simply in the name of the sport not to change it. In other types of road racing you will see a mix of different technology, basically everyone has a spin on how to win. But with racing series that really make the big bucks, nascar, indycar, and F 1 they are strictly regulated and major changes are hard to come by. If you want proof look at NASCAR. How you can still call something stock car racing that doesn't have a stock car in it is beyond me

The reason the fastest drag cars are RWD is because when you have a powerful car, when you launch, most of the weight comes off the front wheels. If you have enough power, the front wheels will come off the ground altogether. You can compensate in an AWD or FWD car with wheelie bars to force the front end down, and stiff rear suspension, but you're still going to get weak launches compared to a RWD car with good tires.

When it comes to handling, AWD as a rule of thumb is terrible. Easily 9 out of 10 AWD cars handles like a shopping cart with a broken wheel. You can plant the power a little better on the exit of the corner, but the tradeoff is a much lower cornering speed to start with, because of the understeer. Some cars, such as the LanEvo and the Skyline GTR compensate with various systems. The LanEvo has active yaw control, if I recall correctly, which helps eliminate the understeering characteristics by overpowering the inside rear wheel, and inducing a little oversteer. The Skyline isn't actually providing torque to the front wheels during cornering, so in effect, it's a RWD car during cornering. The 911 Turbo provides about 5% of it's torque to the front wheels, until it loses back traction. It still understeers. Why did Porsche switch the 911 Turbo to AWD? Three little numbers, 9-3-0. Well, make it six. 9-6-4. The original and second generation 911 turbos, respectively Very powerful, very twitchy, very prone to oversteer, both power and throttle off. Many people got killed or injured because they bought these cars without knowing how to drive them, and that's why Porsche switched to AWD, not for any performance gain. In fact, an AWD 993 Turbo is slower than an equivalently tuned 993 Carrera, on the track and on the street.

AWD has clear advantages in the snow, and for people who don't know how to control a RWD car. In the rain, AWD has a slight advantage off the line, but if you're street racing in the rain, you shouldn't have a license...

The reason the fastest drag cars are RWD is because when you have a powerful car, when you launch, most of the weight comes off the front wheels. If you have enough power, the front wheels will come off the ground altogether. You can compensate in an AWD or FWD car with wheelie bars to force the front end down, and stiff rear suspension, but you're still going to get weak launches compared to a RWD car with good tires.

AWD is for traction. Simply tire technology in top fuel drag racing has supersedes the need for an AWD system. Plus I don't know if they could even build a driveshaft to handle 6,000 hp. Besides that an AWD launch is anything but weak. 0 to 60 times for an AWD car is amazing compared to a rear wheeled counterpart. AWD holds it's own in drag racing, money is the reason why you don't see even more of it. Why spend the cash developing an AWD system when they have good results as is?

When it comes to handling, AWD as a rule of thumb is terrible. Easily 9 out of 10 AWD cars handles like a shopping cart with a broken wheel. You can plant the power a little better on the exit of the corner, but the tradeoff is a much lower cornering speed to start with, because of the understeer. Some cars, such as the LanEvo and the Skyline GTR compensate with various systems. The LanEvo has active yaw control, if I recall correctly, which helps eliminate the understeering characteristics by overpowering the inside rear wheel, and inducing a little oversteer. The Skyline isn't actually providing torque to the front wheels during cornering, so in effect, it's a RWD car during cornering. The 911 Turbo provides about 5% of it's torque to the front wheels, until it loses back traction. It still understeers. Why did Porsche switch the 911 Turbo to AWD? Three little numbers, 9-3-0. Well, make it six. 9-6-4. The original and second generation 911 turbos, respectively Very powerful, very twitchy, very prone to oversteer, both power and throttle off. Many people got killed or injured because they bought these cars without knowing how to drive them, and that's why Porsche switched to AWD, not for any performance gain. In fact, an AWD 993 Turbo is slower than an equivalently tuned 993 Carrera, on the track and on the street.

Understeer is just a design characteristic, regardless of setup your going to have physics playing a role. RWD can't grip like AWD. It's just a design characteristic. I think the end of your last quote put everything correct. Most companies don't deal with other "system" or car styles because there public may or may not like it. Could you imagine a FF drive mustang? Well. it was on the drawing board. Mustang people hated the idea. So they just scrapped the Mustang title and called it the Ford Probe. But in actuality for everyday people driving with there heads up there ass FF works out better.

I have and AWD car and the understeer is really not an issue to me. I mean i like the fact that i can come out a corner balls to walls and never chirp the rubber. And the school of racing says "slow in fast out" not "fast in fast out" You gotta slow down, the quicker you slow down for your turn the faster your on the gas for your exit. It's all about the exit speed.

The American EVO 8 does not have the yaw computer....so it must not be that critical, all the magazines says it's on rails. Matter of fact I have seen a few magazines out run Porsche cars on road tracks....humm.

Porsche does not make the fast car standard to me, they didn't have luck with an AWD system. Many other car makers do. But if you want to drop big names lets drop Lamborghini. They seem to have no problem making most of there cars AWD. They approach this decision car by car....some of the best lambo cars are 2wd and some AWD. They build cars for a purpose and they want the car to behave and feel exactly how they dream it up. Personally I love the new lambo, but my old favorite is the Diablo VTTT. Viscous Traction Twin Turbo, Twin T4 Garrett's and AWD. Who could ask for more.

Check out all the Lambo Cars below...even a lot of special non production cars

http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/Cars/index.html

AWD is for traction. Simply tire technology in top fuel drag racing has supersedes the need for an AWD system. Plus I don't know if they could even build a driveshaft to handle 6,000 hp. Besides that an AWD launch is anything but weak. 0 to 60 times for an AWD car is amazing compared to a rear wheeled counterpart. AWD holds it's own in drag racing, money is the reason why you don't see even more of it. Why spend the cash developing an AWD system when they have good results as is?

What keeps AWD out of Top Fuel is durability issues, power-train loss, added weight, and sheer cost. This makes RWD FAR more ideal for drag racing that AWD in any case. Also AWD traction in the turns is minimal in dry conditions and much more apparent in wet conditions.

blah blah blah blah blah.

Drifting in FF is about as effective as grip racing with a FR. You don't do it because it's not a good idea.

And well sure you can drift in an AWD, if you have a 10f/90r power distribution or other some such, but you do better just to avoid trying to drift in an AWD.

What keeps AWD out of Top Fuel is durability issues, power-train loss, added weight, and sheer cost. This makes RWD FAR more ideal for drag racing that AWD in any case. Also AWD traction in the turns is minimal in dry conditions and much more apparent in wet conditions.

It might keep AWD out of top fuel but in no way does it keep AWD out of dragging altogether. Jon Shepherd runs a 91 AWD Talon (stock body except for hood) and has recently run 8.7 in the quarter. Oh and he drives it to and from the strip.

blah blah blah blah blah.

Drifting in FF is about as effective as grip racing with a FR. You don't do it because it's not a good idea.

And well sure you can drift in an AWD, if you have a 10f/90r power distribution or other some such, but you do better just to avoid trying to drift in an AWD.



and why is grip racing such a bad ideea in an FR....i would really like to hear this


and you can drift even with a 50/50 AWD.....have you even heard of AWD drifts?

Also AWD traction in the turns is minimal in dry conditions and much more apparent in wet conditions.


Traction wise in the basic sense of the word you would be right. Either setup has 4 wheels on the road. The change comes during the dynamics of how the weight shifts depending on the turn. For example during braking before entering a turn, your loading the front of the car. This gives the front tires even more tractions simply by physics. Well on a RWD car your taking traction away from it's powersource. This is why RWD cars tend to have Oversteer.

blah blah blah blah blah.

Drifting in FF is about as effective as grip racing with a FR. You don't do it because it's not a good idea.

Drifting, in ANYTHING, is a bad idea if you're racing. It's just slow! Drifting is like figure skating, it's all about show. Some would say it's pretty much just rice. "Gripping" is faster, no matter if you're FWD, RWD, AWD, Left-Wheel drive, etc...

Well sure you can drift in an AWD, if you have a 10f/90r power distribution or other some such, but you do better just to avoid trying to drift in an AWD.

My AWD drifts, and it's 50/50. In fact it pisses me off cuz it slows me down when it starts doing it. Even a pure FWD can drift.

i concur

If you're running turbo, you damn well better make sure you're running an AWD Grip Racer otherwise once you hit the drift (or you sling your ass around in a FWD using the ebrake) you're going to lose so much pressure off your turbo and you're gonna hit lag drifting around and ultimately your turbo means squat untill you hit the stretches. And if there's not many stretches you're gonna be SOL.


I take it you've never heard of heel-toe driving?

I take it you've never heard of heel-toe driving?

I can't live without heel-toeing... and I only drive on the street. hehe

you guys suck...in my car the brake and the acceleration are aranged in such a way that its almost imposible to do heel and toe

you can fix that neutrino.
my mustqang was like that untill I modifyed the pedals. it is easy and well worth it.
Oh, and RWD is faster in every form of racing other than Rally.

you can fix that neutrino.
my mustqang was like that untill I modifyed the pedals. it is easy and well worth it.
Oh, and RWD is faster in every form of racing other than Rally.


guess must be ford messing with us....i don't think i'll be modding my pedals since i pretty much decided to get another car soon....not sure what yet but i have a few candidates in my mind

lemme know what you are considering.
I just helped a friend buy a car and test drove about 40.
plus considering you are into autoX, we probably have similar wants in a car (handling, brakes, etc).

lemme know what you are considering.
I just helped a friend buy a car and test drove about 40.
plus considering you are into autoX, we probably have similar wants in a car (handling, brakes, etc).


thanks...i'm actually very open to sugestions for a new car...

i've tested so far

350Z
Rx8
Srt4
Wrx


but anyway we should take this in another thread or to PM so they won't accuse us of stealing this thread

AWD is for traction. Simply tire technology in top fuel drag racing has supersedes the need for an AWD system. Plus I don't know if they could even build a driveshaft to handle 6,000 hp. Besides that an AWD launch is anything but weak. 0 to 60 times for an AWD car is amazing compared to a rear wheeled counterpart. AWD holds it's own in drag racing, money is the reason why you don't see even more of it. Why spend the cash developing an AWD system when they have good results as is?


You can never have too much traction. AWD gives you longitudinal traction to the front wheels, at the tradeoff of a lack of lattitudinal traction to the front wheels, ergo, UNDERSTEER. Understeer is the worst handling characteristic you can have.

Tire technology doesn't keep AWD out of fast drag cars, the reasons Polygon gave do. That and the fact that when you nail the power hard, the front end of the car has no weight on it. On FWD and AWD drag cars, the suspension has to be completely tuned for drag racing, to keep the front end down under power. This takes weight off the rear wheels, so you're not actually gaining any traction. AWD gives a slight launch advantage on quick street cars, but once you get into serious straightline performance, it disappears and you're stuck with the huge disadvantage of extra drivetrain loss and weight.


Understeer is just a design characteristic, regardless of setup your going to have physics playing a role. RWD can't grip like AWD. It's just a design characteristic. I think the end of your last quote put everything correct. Most companies don't deal with other "system" or car styles because there public may or may not like it. Could you imagine a FF drive mustang? Well. it was on the drawing board. Mustang people hated the idea. So they just scrapped the Mustang title and called it the Ford Probe. But in actuality for everyday people driving with there heads up there ass FF works out better.


RWD can't grip like AWD? Explain to me the physics behind that. :lol: You mean RWD can't grip in a straight line like AWD can? I refer to my last paragraph. You mean during cornering? If you think AWD cars corner faster than RWD cars on pavement, you're dreaming. The only point where AWD has an advantage over RWD during cornering is at the very exit of the corner.


I have and AWD car and the understeer is really not an issue to me. I mean i like the fact that i can come out a corner balls to walls and never chirp the rubber. And the school of racing says "slow in fast out" not "fast in fast out" You gotta slow down, the quicker you slow down for your turn the faster your on the gas for your exit. It's all about the exit speed.


Obviously you have to slow down for corners, the fact is a RWD car can slow down less, get better turn in, hold a significantly faster mid corner speed, and thus exit at that mid corner speed, accelerating. The AWD will be consistently slower at turn in and mid corner speed, before nailing the throttle. RWD is a superior layout for cornering, barring special circumstances such as loose road surfaces and icy conditions.

As for your statement on your car and it's cornering, obviously you aren't all that fast if the understeer is not an issue for you, and you're not even chirping the rubber. :grinno:


The American EVO 8 does2 not have the yaw computer....so it must not be that critical, all the magazines says it's on rails. Matter of fact I have seen a few magazines out run Porsche cars on road tracks....humm.


Find me some times, please, and I'll argue them :icon16:


Porsche does not make the fast car standard to me, they didn't have luck with an AWD system. Many other car makers do. But if you want to drop big names lets drop Lamborghini. They seem to have no problem making most of there cars AWD. They approach this decision car by car....some of the best lambo cars are 2wd and some AWD. They build cars for a purpose and they want the car to behave and feel exactly how they dream it up. Personally I love the new lambo, but my old favorite is the Diablo VTTT. Viscous Traction Twin Turbo, Twin T4 Garrett's and AWD. Who could ask for more.


Porsche does not make the fast car standard to you? That must be a very short list indeed. We're talking about the same Porsche that won LeMans 16 times, a feat that has never even come close to being rivalled. The same Porsche that was making 1300hp out of the 917/30, the very car that destroyed the CanAm series, which was by it's very nature a very loosely limited racing series to showcase the best technology in the world. The same Porsche that was making 300hp 930s that would hit 60mph in less than 5 seconds in 1978? Let's see, the same Porsche that pioneered the use of turbochargers in high performance street vehicles, the same Porsche that held a virtual stranglehold on sports car racing for decades with the 911...

Hmmm, we must be talking about a different Porsche.

Oh, by the way, have you ever seen a Lamborghini on a racetrack? I have, they are embarrassing to watch. They end up eating their tires after a few laps, and understeering right off the track, or spinning out when the driver tries to compensate with excessive weight transfer. Same problem with the Audi RS6 in the Speed World Challenge. A weight of nearly 4000lbs coupled with all wheed drive spells death for a race car.

Traction wise in the basic sense of the word you would be right. Either setup has 4 wheels on the road. The change comes during the dynamics of how the weight shifts depending on the turn.


And how does having your front wheels linked to rotating drive mass, even off throttle, help your front end traction? The weight transfer is exactly the same, it goes to the front of the car while braking, the rear of the car while accelerating, and to the far side of the car while cornering.


For example during braking before entering a turn, your loading the front of the car. This gives the front tires even more tractions simply by physics. Well on a RWD car your taking traction away from it's powersource. This is why RWD cars tend to have Oversteer.

Ok, point one. When you apply throttle at the apex, the weight shifts to the rear of the car. Then you have an already light front end fighting for traction because of power, these are your steering wheels.

Point two. Very few RWD cars tend to have oversteer unless you have tuned your suspension, or you are overpowering your tires. I challenge you to find a RWD car that does not exibit mild understeering tendencies at partial throttle. Off throttle and during braking is where things get busy, and a RWD car will oversteer just like a front wheel drive or all wheel drive car will. The difference is, the front wheels only have to deal with the forces of braking and steering, as opposed to having to deal with drive, and with the additional rotating mass of your drivetrain being routed through them.

I agree with cbass

from Deakins ... a while ago
As in most touring car championships around the world, AWD was banned from Formula One a long time ago.
that's really not fair to say... it was more because it was a lotus that first used AWD in a indy car... (with a turbine engine), and look now! most things that were origonally lotus designed are banned from use in racing

as for the rest of this thread... each layout has its purpose.


fwd, fuel economy
awd, or... all weather drive + rallying/offroad
rwd... i think there's enough on that already.

in a race situation, there's much more than the layout of the car to be considered. a FWD car that is set up to go fast, even if it's a very stock very well sorted car, will usually go faster than something RWD that hasn't been set up beyond how it is delivered. in equal conditions, with equal drivers, on equally setup cars.... as u can see, something that will never happen, we might be able to tell.

IMO, mid-rear is the best setup, very little power loss, slightly rear biased weight which means more on the tires = less loss of traction.

but to say "which is the best" you want the car that weighs the least, can get the most power to the ground, is able to handle like it's on rails... etc.

now... the only car i've ever been in that meets these prerequisites, was a 128 hp 1965 Lotus Elan. well... given, it was the National AutoX champion of a few years back who owned and drove it... but it outran EVERYTHING at the last event, vettes, miatas, mod cars that were there...

i guess the only way to say which would be 'best' for you is: get something that you like. and learn how to drive it for the car that it is. whether you like FF, FR, MR, RR, or awd, it'll only go as fast as you can make it.

ah yes, and street racing sux. too many good cars are lost to it every year.

I know this thread is a bit old, but I say FWD because with left foot braking it's easy to kill the understeer and take off

I know this thread is a bit old, but I say FWD because with left foot braking it's easy to kill the understeer and take off


you try that at auto x and then we'll talk

course I'm talking about Auto X. I'm not a fan of watching a "10 second car" I love to push myself as a driver and see how far I can push my abilites

I would have to go with RWD. In a street race, the traction and accleration is better (not off launch, I'm talking 2nd gear and up), also, if cornering, controlled drifts (not show drifts, the kind of sliding where you turn faster) and grip driving can both performed rather easy, so you have the most control in a corner. However, weather conditions might be a problem (My 2wd Dakota isn't the most freindly with snow or rain).

AaaAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! *Ggrbrrgbrllrlgrlllllll blub* /drowns in the ignorance :chair:

why don't people read the whole thread anymore... but then again did they ever?

yeah, they got a little off topic.
speaking of which...
hey ac427cpe, I was riding with my boss in his lotus europa, and I must say, aside from his TVR, that is the best handling car I've been in in a while.
maybe the fact that he used to be a race car driver had something to do with it though...

It really seem that you are getting into the detail about this 2wd/4wd debate; the corner exit speed, law of physics into handling etc...

but it seem you have forgotten one of the most important factor!

the driving pleasure!

It may be true that FWD (and of course AWD) may be faster than RWD into wet condition, but do you realise how boring it is to drive one? its almost impossible to drift and it can only understeer (in all conditions). Maybe some will say that the handbrake can make a FWD drift into a corner, but do they really know what this word mean??

Because if the only way to make the tail happy is to lose 20+ mph in a corner, id rather not drift at all.

If you have never driven an RWD (or AWD) then you should really sign up for a day in a racing school or go rent your own RWD.

Taking a fast corner with a RWD and feeling the tails thats going off, and then getting it back in the right direction, is a feeling that FWDrivers will never experience.

I had more fun with a 240 volvo RWD than a integra, even if it was 2 seconds slower on the 1/4 mile.

And now my advice for the best street car!

Well it depend!

If you have the money to get a good RWD car like BMW, Porsche , RX-7 or you can accept to have a 16 yrs old car like the corolla GTS and some affordable porsche, then RWD is for you!

But, if you have less than 20k to put on your car or cant enjoy perfect road conditions all the year, then definitly go for AWD. Its usualy cheaper, better in wet conditions and its almost as fun to drive as RWD.

and again, as the basis of this whole thread, it's based off of opinion. Personally I think that FWD is more fun to drive. <Crowds gasps> "Yes yes I know..it's change" My family has a history of buying RWD cars, and it's because of the oversteer I didn't like it so much.

oversteer > no steering bias > understeer

just wondering... ColeIketani... do you know what understeer is?

It may be true that FWD (and of course AWD) may be faster than RWD into wet condition, but do you realise how boring it is to drive one? its almost impossible to drift and it can only understeer (in all conditions). Maybe some will say that the handbrake can make a FWD drift into a corner, but do they really know what this word mean??

Taking a fast corner with a RWD and feeling the tails thats going off, and then getting it back in the right direction, is a feeling that FWDrivers will never experience.

Haven't we already been over this like 4 times in this thread? FWD and AWD can drift! Quit saying they can't!

sure, any car can drift if you really want it to, but why waste the time/tires dirfting?
especially on a track.
tell me the next time you see a real driver drifting on a real track.
I'm sure neutrino can back me up on how "effective" drifting is on AutoX

About his question on understeer. Understeer is not quite clearing the turning radius in a turn , making it unable to make the turn,weight shifts back to the rear drive wheels off of the front turning wheels, leading to a further lessening of the car's ability to turn in. For example, taking a right curve, and the car is still heading toward the left side of the curve. Why do you ask?

I have to say i don't see why everyone disses the fwd. I love mine and i would rather have it than rwd. Thats just my preference though...

Tell me, 94prelude, have you ever OWNED a RWD vehicle to make an honest opinion on that, or did you say that because you love your 'lude and it happens to be FWD?

I love my car yes so i guess im a little biased... i would like to drive a rwd car though... but im satisfied with this

I read the first two pages and the one thing no one had mentioned was price. a RWD will handle more power for cheaper. 600hp in a auto RWD won't have to be beefed up as much as a 600hp AWD.

my :2cents:



marcus

i too didnt read the whole book that came before my post but heres what i think:
for the guys who say AWD loses more through the drivetrain, well, you're right... BUT, with todays technology, you don't need to have a 50/50 power split all the time. subaru's new AWD system acutally allows you to controll power distribution manually. now, what does this mean to us? i means you can have a full 50/50 split in first gear, go to a smaller split in second, and then full RWD when you hit third. now what kind of drivetrain loss are we looking at? pure RWD power with the neck snapping AWD launch. its the best of both worlds, the only reason i could see not going that route is because
1) theres no replacement, for displacement. and subaru's 2.5l doesnt cut it. for me anyway...
2) theres more moving parts in the drivetrain which means more maintenence/breakage
now if this was a completely drag strip car i would say RWD no question since with the right tires/suspension you can make anything hook. but for a street/strip racer i say AWD hands down.

off topic here but ultimate car street/strip car= AWD 400hp LS1 ...holden makes one ::drools::

:2cents:

the fastest drag cars in the world are top fuel. they have a drivetrain similar to formula 1 cars, the fastest roadcourse cars in the world. the similarity? MR, or mid-engine, rear-wheel drive.

now... if the fastest cars in the world have a certain setup, wouldn't that tell you something?

as for AWD, it's perfect for Rally, where traction is at a premium more so than many other motorsports.

as far as i'm concerned, all i'm ever gonna seriously race/modify is rear-wheel drive, and front engine is fine too.

Wow... that was a fun read... all 7 pages of it. All i gotta say is:

1. FWD: Its inferior, and those of you who prefer it havent driven a FR, MR, or AWD. (I used to have a Teg, now i've been shown the light)

2. AWD: With the exception of ATTESA and those like it that take advantage of both AWD and RWD... RWD is better for road racing.

3. RWD: Power is best applied from the rear wheels, and if your engine is in the back, you have less drivetrain loss, a better weight distribution, and better handling.

Gotta love the MR layout... (If im biased....) AWD-esque launching capability, RWD cornering, less drivetrain loss than FR and AWD.

an awd system like the one found in thr GTR is good because it allows for the traction of a hard lauch to be sent through four wheels but switches back to RWD to help the caar rotate around a turn

yeah, they got a little off topic.
speaking of which...
hey ac427cpe, I was riding with my boss in his lotus europa, and I must say, aside from his TVR, that is the best handling car I've been in in a while.
maybe the fact that he used to be a race car driver had something to do with it though...


Your boss is a god. I want a europa.



Front wheel drive will plow off course on fast, decreasing radius corners. All auto-Xers will be able to back this up. Front wheel drive cars transfer weight to the rear wheels on acceleration, like all cars. This same weight transfer takes needed traction OFF of the drive wheels on front wheel drive cars, and ON the drive wheels of rear wheel drive cars. This is why rear wheel drive cars are faster on corner exit acceleration than front wheel drive cars.

There are benifits to front wheel drive. At low speeds, the weight of the engine/transaxle over the front wheels helps them to dig in on stuff like gravel and snow. There are also different types of corners, such as downhill sweepers, that front wheel drive cars thrive on.

Remember the traction circle? When you have reached the limit of your tires grip, any driver input at all, whether it be braking, steering, throttle change - whatever - will push the tires grip over the edge and it will slide. When you have all of these forces, all of them, on your two front tires, and you're at the tire's limit of grip? The next step is understeering straight off the road. Front wheel drive is prominent among passenger cars, because the manufacturers believe it is safer for a car to understeer off of the road instead of spinning into other traffic. Sure, a certain amount of understeer is good for corner entry, but on exit? No thanks.

I don't know what else to say. If people don't know by now, they are either tools, or just plain stubborn. Front wheel drive is fine and good - up to a certain point. You can have fun zipping around in your civic all day long and probably never think about all this. But I will never be able to think of them as serious driver's cars. Rear wheel drive will free your mind. I know a guy that drives an MR2. When he has to drive a friend's honda civic, it gives him a headache. It's not the pine tree air freshener, it's the dynamics of the car.

:2cents:

the fastest drag cars in the world are top fuel. they have a drivetrain similar to formula 1 cars, the fastest roadcourse cars in the world. the similarity? MR, or mid-engine, rear-wheel drive.

now... if the fastest cars in the world have a certain setup, wouldn't that tell you something.

so why do you think buggati veyron went with awd?

seriously, does anyone know? :dunno:

so why do you think buggati veyron went with awd?

seriously, does anyone know? :dunno:

Because the Veyron has 1000hp, is not practical for racing, and has an extremely high sticker price. This means that the people who will be driving it will not be professional drivers on the circuit, they'll be rich playboys, and they'll need AWD to keep from spinning out in every corner from too much throttle.

AWD is for noobs :icon16:

Bunta, my preferred method of turn in is slight trailing braking oversteer, followed by slight countersteering and applying power while crossing the apex to smoothly understeer out of the corner. It's a very fast method of driving, I have found. You can usually make up a fraction of a second in the corner entry and mid corner speeds, and if you're smooth enough, achieve an exit speed that is on par with a "slow in, fast out" standard approach, sometimes even faster.

I take my driving cues from the great sports car drivers of the late 50s and early 60s, before fat tires and downforce became commonplace. :evillol:

In my opinion, however limited, it seems that RWD would be the clear winner. It is just easiest to get proper weight transfer to rear wheels, and the aftermarket support for RWD trannies, converters, rear-ends, clutches, etc. is unbeatable. I find it amazing you can buy a Tremec TKO-600 tranny, which would handle +600 ft/lb, for just $~2500. That is called power handling for a great price.
Road race/autocross may be a different story, and AWD is definitely superior for rally type vehicles, but RWD can also be made to work for a very reasonable price. Also, if you lose it with an FWD car in the corner you can't use power to recover like a RWD.
I personally have 2 RWD cars, because I think donuts and burnouts are COOL! Who doesn't agree!
I also think the FWD cult has got to end. It seems that due to the preponderance of FWD imports, people tend to think they are infalliable or superior. Look at the facts - FWD is typically easier to drive but it just doesn't have the traction capabilities. I didn't say a thing about handling, and those FWD drag cars are HIGHLY optimized for front-wheel traction, in ways that make them un-streetable, not to mention being bad for any sort of handling.
Keep Racing :~)

im goin with fwd cuz thats what i drive :P

This thread is so old, you could have had a baby in the meantime.

Hmm.... I like them all... yup... I like FF and AWD because its good in the snow, I like RWD because its fun to drive, etc.... I just LOVE to drive!

To tell you the truth its all in the way your gonna use it they all have advantages and disadvantages its judt what you prefer.

ooooh man. RWD takes the cake on this one. I seriously regret getting a FWD like I did, but hey, I'm a student so it doesnt matter that much. To be honest....trying to have fun in a FWD car is like trying to win the 100m dash in the olympics when you have no legs - its REALLY hard, but not entirely impossible. AWD launches are fun as hell, and I love them, but for driving overall, RWD takes it by a hair.

RWD cars tend to get the best bang for the buck.It is a lot easier to make a Camaro run 10 second 1/4 miles than a honda civic or integra but an STI on the other hand is already a beast and it would small mods for it to run 10s. I run a camaro with 490 HP to the wheels and it only cost me $5000 to get there but at the same time I cant grab traction so my times are slow for a near 500HP car.

A never dieing thread i guess.