426 hemi vs. 454
'72chargerkid
10-23-2003, 03:00 AM
personaly i think the hemi will whoop any motor's ass, bit i'm a 'par freak so lemme know what you all think
Polygon
10-23-2003, 10:13 AM
All I can say is that I love the Chevy 454, but like you I'm a Mopar nut. The Hemi is the king. They called it the elephant motor for a reason. A lot of the Chevy and Ford guys I know love their motors but they always give respect to the Hemi.
Accelero-Rice
10-24-2003, 04:45 PM
Personally after driving cars with both, stock there is no comparison to the hemi... a friend has a hemi cuda that i have driven a time or 2 and my father used to own a 454 corvette and the performance in the hemi was majorly better... not to mention that the corvette never once lost by less then about 3 carlengths when we ran them.
GTStang
10-26-2003, 01:14 AM
Ford 427 Cammer Motor ownz both those.
hockeygod2787
10-27-2003, 11:27 AM
HEMI
Thats all I can say!
:smokin:
.:C.H.R.I.S:.
Thats all I can say!
:smokin:
.:C.H.R.I.S:.
Polygon
10-27-2003, 01:37 PM
Ford 427 Cammer Motor ownz both those.
1. That was not a production engine, it was race purpose built.
2. They weren't at all reliable.
3. They also had hemispherical heads which earned it the name semi hemi.
This comparo isn't about any other engines except the 454 and the 426 Hemi. I get sick of people trying to throw the cammer around. Make the Hemi or the 454 OHC and see what happens. Then we'll talk.
1. That was not a production engine, it was race purpose built.
2. They weren't at all reliable.
3. They also had hemispherical heads which earned it the name semi hemi.
This comparo isn't about any other engines except the 454 and the 426 Hemi. I get sick of people trying to throw the cammer around. Make the Hemi or the 454 OHC and see what happens. Then we'll talk.
hockeygod2787
10-27-2003, 01:41 PM
:iagree:
.:C.H.R.I.S:.
.:C.H.R.I.S:.
NISSANSPDR
10-27-2003, 02:40 PM
Hemi all the way...
Sexy beast
10-27-2003, 05:02 PM
I heard the Hemi bottom-ends are bullit proof...but the complex valvetrain suffers more than a conventional engine.
chicago_guy
10-27-2003, 06:26 PM
i think the 1.6 vtec is the best....NOT!...lol
Hemi's r beasts that r unbeatable
Hemi's r beasts that r unbeatable
Neutrino
10-28-2003, 04:20 AM
hemi is the king :naughty:
GTStang
10-29-2003, 01:57 AM
1. That was not a production engine, it was race purpose built.
2. They weren't at all reliable.
3. They also had hemispherical heads which earned it the name semi hemi.
This comparo isn't about any other engines except the 454 and the 426 Hemi. I get sick of people trying to throw the cammer around. Make the Hemi or the 454 OHC and see what happens. Then we'll talk.
#1 It was not put in a car from the factory but it could be bought at a Ford dealership if you so wanted.
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
2. They weren't at all reliable.
3. They also had hemispherical heads which earned it the name semi hemi.
This comparo isn't about any other engines except the 454 and the 426 Hemi. I get sick of people trying to throw the cammer around. Make the Hemi or the 454 OHC and see what happens. Then we'll talk.
#1 It was not put in a car from the factory but it could be bought at a Ford dealership if you so wanted.
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
Neutrino
10-29-2003, 08:37 AM
#1 It was not put in a car from the factory but it could be bought at a Ford dealership if you so wanted.
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
you still have to admit that its an amzing engine....the best proof for that IMO is that is the only engine used in Top Fuel dragsters...
true its a bit pricy but still its a monster...
on the other hand its amazing the use of an overhead cam at such and early age as in the cammer(althogh it might have been a bit too early which woud acount for the reliability issues)....also seems that Ford is the only american company that uses DOHC setups in their hi-perf V8's something i wish to see its competitors would do too....an DOHC ls6 or hemi would be interesting
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
you still have to admit that its an amzing engine....the best proof for that IMO is that is the only engine used in Top Fuel dragsters...
true its a bit pricy but still its a monster...
on the other hand its amazing the use of an overhead cam at such and early age as in the cammer(althogh it might have been a bit too early which woud acount for the reliability issues)....also seems that Ford is the only american company that uses DOHC setups in their hi-perf V8's something i wish to see its competitors would do too....an DOHC ls6 or hemi would be interesting
Polygon
10-29-2003, 10:01 AM
#1 It was not put in a car from the factory but it could be bought at a Ford dealership if you so wanted.
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
1. That might be true, but it still wasn't a production engine.
2. The Hemi has one of the most solid bottom ends of any engine. The Cammer had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing.
If the Hemi wasn't that good they wouldn't be using it in all Top Fuel drag cars. The Hemi is one of the ultimate engines no matter if you want to admit it or not.
#2 Hemi where not know for great reliability either. I'm not saying one is more reliable than the other but Hemi had reliability issues also.
#3 The Boss 429 heads were more of a rip of than Cammer heads.
Ok sorry I brought in the 427 Cammer motor but Chevy or Mopar never made a OHC those years. And I'm sick of people thinking Hemi's are like a God send to V-8's.
1. That might be true, but it still wasn't a production engine.
2. The Hemi has one of the most solid bottom ends of any engine. The Cammer had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing.
If the Hemi wasn't that good they wouldn't be using it in all Top Fuel drag cars. The Hemi is one of the ultimate engines no matter if you want to admit it or not.
Sexy beast
10-29-2003, 10:40 AM
I'm not as impressed with the size of the Hemi as I am with the design...the hemispherical chamber is the best design for a combustion chamber.
HemiFan
11-11-2003, 08:57 AM
If all of you guys like the Hemi so much, let me tell you about the Ultimate version. When Ford developed the 427 SOHC motor for NASCAR in response to the Hemi, Chrysler said to itself, hmm if one overhead cam is good, two must be better. When Ford presented the SOHC 427 to Big Bill France, Chrysler simultaneously showed off the DOHC, 4-valve per cylinder (no small feat for a hemispherical combustion chamber) Hemi, which was said to make 900 Horsepower in racing trim. France freaked and told both that they were out of their minds if they thought that they would be racing those motors. Unfortunately, they only made one DOHC Hemi, and there is very little information to be found on it, at least as far as I have looked.
P.S. Most 4-valve per cylinder engines are wedge shape, not hemispherical, because you can have two parallel rows of two valves each. In a hemispherical headed combustion chamber, the 4 valves must point out in 4 different directions for maximum efficiency.
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:ylCNngTFoPYJ:www.dodgechargerregist ry.com/Chapter%25204-The%2520Elephant%2520Block-426%2520Race%2520Hemi.doc+DOHC+426+Hemi+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
This site has a brief blip on the NASCAR incident.
P.S. Most 4-valve per cylinder engines are wedge shape, not hemispherical, because you can have two parallel rows of two valves each. In a hemispherical headed combustion chamber, the 4 valves must point out in 4 different directions for maximum efficiency.
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:ylCNngTFoPYJ:www.dodgechargerregist ry.com/Chapter%25204-The%2520Elephant%2520Block-426%2520Race%2520Hemi.doc+DOHC+426+Hemi+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
This site has a brief blip on the NASCAR incident.
syr74
11-12-2003, 12:41 AM
Okay, first of all and in no way flaming anybody just trying to clarify things. Almost every 4-valve engine ever built has been a "hemi" with a hemisphirical combustion chamber out of necessity of design. It is still this way today. So to say it is "no mean feat" to make a 4-valve Hemi is exactly the opposite of reality ...virtually every 4 valve engine IS a Hemi..... they just don't advertise
And, just as an fyi for those who don't know......Chrysler didn't invent the Hemi....they weren't even close. Bugatti was building 4 valve combustion chambers with a hemi design in the ninteen twenties....and almost everybody else who built a multi valve motor before WW2 beat mother Mopar to the punch by a long way, as they were virtually all hemi-chamber designs as well as mentioned above.
As for the Ford SOHC controversy. Yes Chrysler did build a DOHC Hemi prototype. Ford was denied the right to use their 427 SOHC long before Chrysler even thought about showing their DOHC engine to NASCAR so no...they did not get rejected at the same time. And, the Chrysler motor did have DOHC's, but it did not have four valves...it had two. And, while the SOHC Ford was not a "production" car motor at least the motor itself was produced.....the DOHC Hemi never made it.
As for the 427SOHC's reliability issues keeping it from drag racing. Nope, sorry. What got the Cammer out of drag racing was a little thing we call rules, not reliability. As an example, the Cammer was the first motor to top 200mph in the quarter not the Hemi. The Hemi's dominance in drag racing now and for some time past isn't hard to figure...the rules favor Hemi headed designs, so they rule......big surprise.
Sorry, I am just one of those guys who thinks Hemi's are over rated. Great engines, but not nearly so great as some seem to think. As an example I will point out that the record holder for NHRA "stock" class drag racing...muscle cars in other words....is a 69-1/2 Ford Falcon (stripped Torino) with a 429SCJ....nuff said
And, just as an fyi for those who don't know......Chrysler didn't invent the Hemi....they weren't even close. Bugatti was building 4 valve combustion chambers with a hemi design in the ninteen twenties....and almost everybody else who built a multi valve motor before WW2 beat mother Mopar to the punch by a long way, as they were virtually all hemi-chamber designs as well as mentioned above.
As for the Ford SOHC controversy. Yes Chrysler did build a DOHC Hemi prototype. Ford was denied the right to use their 427 SOHC long before Chrysler even thought about showing their DOHC engine to NASCAR so no...they did not get rejected at the same time. And, the Chrysler motor did have DOHC's, but it did not have four valves...it had two. And, while the SOHC Ford was not a "production" car motor at least the motor itself was produced.....the DOHC Hemi never made it.
As for the 427SOHC's reliability issues keeping it from drag racing. Nope, sorry. What got the Cammer out of drag racing was a little thing we call rules, not reliability. As an example, the Cammer was the first motor to top 200mph in the quarter not the Hemi. The Hemi's dominance in drag racing now and for some time past isn't hard to figure...the rules favor Hemi headed designs, so they rule......big surprise.
Sorry, I am just one of those guys who thinks Hemi's are over rated. Great engines, but not nearly so great as some seem to think. As an example I will point out that the record holder for NHRA "stock" class drag racing...muscle cars in other words....is a 69-1/2 Ford Falcon (stripped Torino) with a 429SCJ....nuff said
Polygon
11-12-2003, 09:40 AM
While Chrysler did not invent the Hemi head, they did invent the Hemi as we know it today. Hemi heads aren't all that goes into the design of the Chrysler designed Hemi. I don't give a rats ass about the Cammer or the OHC Hemi they were both unreliable. And yes, the Cammers reliability issues were one of the things that kept it out of Pro Drag Racing.
Once again this is not a debate about the Cammer vs. the Hemi it is the 454 vs. the 426 Hemi so shut up about the Cammer. If you want a Cammer Hemi comparo then make a new damn thread. I am sick of threads going off topic.
Now stay on topic or this is closed.
Once again this is not a debate about the Cammer vs. the Hemi it is the 454 vs. the 426 Hemi so shut up about the Cammer. If you want a Cammer Hemi comparo then make a new damn thread. I am sick of threads going off topic.
Now stay on topic or this is closed.
syr74
11-12-2003, 12:03 PM
From your reaction apparently I made my point. And, I will answer the question about the 454 versus 426 Hemi. One of them is second and the other one is third:)
SOHCit2m
11-27-2003, 05:38 PM
1. That might be true, but it still wasn't a production engine.
2. The Hemi has one of the most solid bottom ends of any engine. The Cammer had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing.
If the Hemi wasn't that good they wouldn't be using it in all Top Fuel drag cars. The Hemi is one of the ultimate engines no matter if you want to admit it or not.
2. If you only knew what your talking about. 1st the sohc block was the same bullet proof cross bolt FE block used for a number of years in stock & drag cars. The weak link was the the 6' cam chain, when that was changed reliability became a non-issue.
A little FYI:
"Ford comes to Crane Cams with its SOHC 427 drag racing program cam needs. Harvey responds with the famed Crane ?Nitro Series? cams, computer designed especially for the 427 ?Cammer.? Crane pioneer Pete Robinson enjoys immediate success with his ?Cammer powered dragster. Mickey Thompson?s new factory-backed Funny Car team orders several pairs of Crane ?Nitro-Series? cams for its nationwide tour of major NHRA and AHRA events. The M/T ?Blue Car? Mustang, driven by Danny Ongais, wins several national events during the year and caps the season with an impressive Funny Car Eliminator win at the NHRA U.S. Nationals!"
The only reason the HEMI ended up ruling Top fuel & funny cars is that Ford quit making the cammer and the semi-hemi boss9 because neither had anything to do with selling production cars. Until then the hemi wasn't what it is today, not that it has anything to do with the production engine anyway, it's easy to be the best, at least in name, when your the only one.
The force to be recond with in drag racing during the '60's and early '70's was Ford's SOHC and Boss9 engines, even today with no factory help the dominate motor in IHRA prostock is still based off the Boss9(where's the mountain motor hemi?)
You may want to read this and take note of what year he finally swapped out that turd SOHC: http://www.draglist.com/stories/SOD%20Jun%202001/SOD-062901.htm
Hemi vs. the SOHC Ford: http://www.draglist.com/hill/hemiford.htm
From this link take note of the names and years: http://www.sd455.com/crmhoover.htm "In 1967, Tom and George Hoover appeared on the scene with Ford 427-SOHC powered dragster. Pete Robinson, Don Prudhomme, and Connie Kalitta also had Ford Cammer powered diggers in this era. Presumably, FoMoCo was involved in the project in a big way....see the little blue oval decal? Tom lamented in a magazine article that he was getting tired of the "old style" 392-Chrysler Hemi fuel motor's coming apart and spraying him with hot oil...sometimes hot oil on fire! Understandable."
How about this little tid-bit:"Connie Kalitta"s famous SOHC Ford "Bounty Hunter" won all three sanctioning body's Winternationals in 1967." That would be: AHRA, NHRA and IHRA. Notice the word "famous"?
4yrs later: "Dyno Don Nicholson's SOHC 427-powered Ford Maverick that he drove to Ford?s first ever Pro Stock win at Englishtown Raceway in 1971"
And where it all started the A/FX cars 1965: http://www.holmanmoody.com/images/drag_racing/drag_racing.htm
Holman Moody builds 10 altered wheelbase A/FX Mustangs for the Factory Experimental class of drag racing. Eight of the cars were powered by 427 SOHC (single overhead cam) engines, and the other two had 427 Hi-Risers. All of these cars ran dual 4 barrel carbs except Les Ritcheys, which had Webers. Les Ritchey managed a 10.51 sec/134.24 mph quarter mile. Bill Lawton won the NHRA Winter Nationals A/FX class with a 10.88 sec/129.84 quarter mile. The Wickersham Mustang with its 427 Hi-Riser, was driven by Clester Andrews to 40 wins in 42 match races.(the cammer had the same basic block as the Hi-riser except stronger)
23yrs in drag racing not bad for an engine that to use your words, "had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing" and most of those years were without Ford's help.
Listen to a cammer: http://jbaheaders.com/video/bada$$pinto.mpg & http://jbaheaders.com/video/bada@@tbird.mpg
2. The Hemi has one of the most solid bottom ends of any engine. The Cammer had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing.
If the Hemi wasn't that good they wouldn't be using it in all Top Fuel drag cars. The Hemi is one of the ultimate engines no matter if you want to admit it or not.
2. If you only knew what your talking about. 1st the sohc block was the same bullet proof cross bolt FE block used for a number of years in stock & drag cars. The weak link was the the 6' cam chain, when that was changed reliability became a non-issue.
A little FYI:
"Ford comes to Crane Cams with its SOHC 427 drag racing program cam needs. Harvey responds with the famed Crane ?Nitro Series? cams, computer designed especially for the 427 ?Cammer.? Crane pioneer Pete Robinson enjoys immediate success with his ?Cammer powered dragster. Mickey Thompson?s new factory-backed Funny Car team orders several pairs of Crane ?Nitro-Series? cams for its nationwide tour of major NHRA and AHRA events. The M/T ?Blue Car? Mustang, driven by Danny Ongais, wins several national events during the year and caps the season with an impressive Funny Car Eliminator win at the NHRA U.S. Nationals!"
The only reason the HEMI ended up ruling Top fuel & funny cars is that Ford quit making the cammer and the semi-hemi boss9 because neither had anything to do with selling production cars. Until then the hemi wasn't what it is today, not that it has anything to do with the production engine anyway, it's easy to be the best, at least in name, when your the only one.
The force to be recond with in drag racing during the '60's and early '70's was Ford's SOHC and Boss9 engines, even today with no factory help the dominate motor in IHRA prostock is still based off the Boss9(where's the mountain motor hemi?)
You may want to read this and take note of what year he finally swapped out that turd SOHC: http://www.draglist.com/stories/SOD%20Jun%202001/SOD-062901.htm
Hemi vs. the SOHC Ford: http://www.draglist.com/hill/hemiford.htm
From this link take note of the names and years: http://www.sd455.com/crmhoover.htm "In 1967, Tom and George Hoover appeared on the scene with Ford 427-SOHC powered dragster. Pete Robinson, Don Prudhomme, and Connie Kalitta also had Ford Cammer powered diggers in this era. Presumably, FoMoCo was involved in the project in a big way....see the little blue oval decal? Tom lamented in a magazine article that he was getting tired of the "old style" 392-Chrysler Hemi fuel motor's coming apart and spraying him with hot oil...sometimes hot oil on fire! Understandable."
How about this little tid-bit:"Connie Kalitta"s famous SOHC Ford "Bounty Hunter" won all three sanctioning body's Winternationals in 1967." That would be: AHRA, NHRA and IHRA. Notice the word "famous"?
4yrs later: "Dyno Don Nicholson's SOHC 427-powered Ford Maverick that he drove to Ford?s first ever Pro Stock win at Englishtown Raceway in 1971"
And where it all started the A/FX cars 1965: http://www.holmanmoody.com/images/drag_racing/drag_racing.htm
Holman Moody builds 10 altered wheelbase A/FX Mustangs for the Factory Experimental class of drag racing. Eight of the cars were powered by 427 SOHC (single overhead cam) engines, and the other two had 427 Hi-Risers. All of these cars ran dual 4 barrel carbs except Les Ritcheys, which had Webers. Les Ritchey managed a 10.51 sec/134.24 mph quarter mile. Bill Lawton won the NHRA Winter Nationals A/FX class with a 10.88 sec/129.84 quarter mile. The Wickersham Mustang with its 427 Hi-Riser, was driven by Clester Andrews to 40 wins in 42 match races.(the cammer had the same basic block as the Hi-riser except stronger)
23yrs in drag racing not bad for an engine that to use your words, "had so many problems that it kept it out of pro drag racing" and most of those years were without Ford's help.
Listen to a cammer: http://jbaheaders.com/video/bada$$pinto.mpg & http://jbaheaders.com/video/bada@@tbird.mpg
blindside.AMG
11-27-2003, 06:03 PM
I'd take a Mopar or Chevy engine over a Ford any day of the week. Ford has never been known for reliability. Ford engines always lose to Chevy and Mopar. Ford is for people who can't afford a Mopar or Chevy. For this comparo, I'd take the Hemi of course. Mopar all the way!
SOHCit2m
11-27-2003, 08:09 PM
I'd take a Mopar or Chevy engine over a Ford any day of the week. Ford has never been known for reliability. Ford engines always lose to Chevy and Mopar. Ford is for people who can't afford a Mopar or Chevy. For this comparo, I'd take the Hemi of course. Mopar all the way!
ROTFLMAO! Give me a break. How many 24hr races have the "reliable" need Mopower or Generic Motors won compared to Ford? For that matter 12hr races? How many years in a row was Roush best in class @ Daytona 24 and almost won overall a couple of those times back when the prototypes were something to be recond with? How many back to back Lemans wins? How many T/A titles has Mopar won? So you won't waste time looking it up Roush won 10 straight 24 Hours of Daytona Sedan Class Championships, which is probably more than the other 2 combined. Ford is for those who know better than to buy brand X or worse yet need mopower.
ROTFLMAO! Give me a break. How many 24hr races have the "reliable" need Mopower or Generic Motors won compared to Ford? For that matter 12hr races? How many years in a row was Roush best in class @ Daytona 24 and almost won overall a couple of those times back when the prototypes were something to be recond with? How many back to back Lemans wins? How many T/A titles has Mopar won? So you won't waste time looking it up Roush won 10 straight 24 Hours of Daytona Sedan Class Championships, which is probably more than the other 2 combined. Ford is for those who know better than to buy brand X or worse yet need mopower.
Polygon
11-28-2003, 10:30 AM
2. If you only knew what your talking about. 1st the sohc block was the same bullet proof cross bolt FE block used for a number of years in stock & drag cars. The weak link was the the 6' cam chain, when that was changed reliability became a non-issue.
I never said anything about specific parts of the engine. I said it had reliability issues, which you just confirmed! As for all your FYI, all I can say is blah, blah, blah. I already said this isn't a Cammer Vs. Hemi debate so now I am going to close this thread because you couldn't stay on topic. What is so hard about starting a new thread if you want to compare the two???
Also, the Hemi Belvedere could do 10s from the factory stock!
I never said anything about specific parts of the engine. I said it had reliability issues, which you just confirmed! As for all your FYI, all I can say is blah, blah, blah. I already said this isn't a Cammer Vs. Hemi debate so now I am going to close this thread because you couldn't stay on topic. What is so hard about starting a new thread if you want to compare the two???
Also, the Hemi Belvedere could do 10s from the factory stock!
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