Mclaren F1 Registry


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MalkaJB
08-13-2004, 03:58 AM
Bill had tried unsuccessfully for years (apparently) to import his beloved 959 and was not able to until Show&Display became law in late 1999.

>8^)
ER

What about before 1999? What did McLaren owners do to get their cars in the states prior to that law?

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 04:18 AM
Prior to 1999, most of the F1s were simply not here. As the Mike Sheehan article I linked to mentions, the 'Show & Display' law really opened the flood gate.

Amerispec Corp had managed to get 7-8 F1s here as "Ameritech F1s" sometime in 1997 using some loop holes in the existing laws and other apparent tricks, but some would argue that what they really were doing was not completely legal. I say who cares - the laws were dumb and still kind of are. One other infrequent participant here prefers to demonize and criminalize the whole Amerispec scenario. :screwy: :rolleyes:

Besides the Amerispec F1s, there could have been a few other F1s here prior to 1999 that weren't completely legit, or could have come in under some other temporary import provision, but I'm not aware of any specifically.

>8^)
ER

MalkaJB
08-13-2004, 04:37 AM
Is Kennedy's car and Ameritech F1?

I assume that Kennedy's F1 was here prior to 1999, because by the end of 2003 it already had over 20,000 miles on it. If he did bring it over after '99 under "show and display" status, then he'd better pray that the DOT doesn't spot check his mileage.

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 05:08 AM
No - Kennedy's F1 was not an Ameritech F1 - but he's also not the original owner and there's no telling just how many of those 20,000 miles he's been responsible for since the car arrived in the USA. I do know he's one of the owners that uses his F1 to the fullest, and can only imagine he is careful to document the mileage so as not to get himself into any trouble. ;)

The 7 Ameritech F1s belong to Herb Chambers, Carl Beal, Larry Ellison, Ralph Lauren got 2, Gerd Petrik also got 2 (but eventually both of his were resold. One of Petrik's went to Elon Musk and the other was at Newport Autosport for a long time, then MotorCars Intl had it, and eventually it ended up being sold to an unknown customer here in North America. Jay Leno's F1 also came into the US via Amerispec Corp, but I recall there's something about Leno's or the way that Amerispec Corp brought it in that it wasn't handled exactly like the other 7. I don't know the details on that exactly though - I believe his came in in 1998 - and I do believe its since been through the 'S&D' process following its arrival here. I don't think Leno's is actually classified as an "Ameritech F1" - though I could be wrong.

Earlier it was reported that when S&D was enacted in 1999 that all the Ameritech F1 owners were told they needed to file the applications to get S&D approval for their F1s, but the same person that said that also stated that only one owner began the process (Lauren I believe) and that none had completed it. I don't know if that still remains true, but that's what he had said. I don't believe that Musk has had to file an S&D application on the one he acquired, nor do I believe that the new owner of Petrik's other F1 has had to file.

I'd imagine these 7 cars aren't all that high on the DOT priority list if they are in some kind of violation of the law. When they entered the country, the methods involved were deemed legal at the time so I believe it would be hard without a long legal fight to do anything about them. Only after those 7 cars came in did the DOT/EPA put a stop to what Amerispec Corp was doing.

Maybe that person who likes to be so vocal on this topic will chime in again to set me straight on anything that might be inaccurate here. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject and I do believe he's still an active reader here.

>8^)
ER

Huggybear010
08-13-2004, 08:23 AM
Im back this is for all the non belivers!!! (you know who you are)
There was a Mclaren F1 crushed. If you want to know find a copy of Autoexpress issue 685. The interview is in there. And to all the haters, know what your going on about before you talk to someone who seems them everyday.

mini magic
08-13-2004, 11:08 AM
Ok, i'm still fairly sure none was crushed. Who was interviewed?

Btw, did you meen "sees" instead of "seems"?

Maybe that person who likes to be so vocal on this topic will chime in again to set me straight on anything that might be inaccurate here. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject and I do believe he's still an active reader here.

Haha, i think he's long gone

gerd
08-13-2004, 12:00 PM
Still here. Still sorting who the real people are. Peleton - you get it right most of the time. Sorry you don't care. But you've probably never been a victim. Here is the memo, legally obtained. And you say there are no criminals :-)

Date: 01/18/2000 04:16 pm (Tuesday)
From: George Entwistle
To: Ken Weinstein; Taylor Vinson
CC: Luke Loy
Subject: Re: Telephone call from Dick Fritz
On March 5, 1999, Pacific Automobile Appraisers requested the importation status of a 1998 McLaren F yIN SA9AB5ACOY 1048067. This is a vehicle owned by ******* (Petrik) which also bears an AIVIERITECH VIN 1A9MC99L8SA3 98067. The inquiry was on the McLaren VIN. How should we respond to such questions? After discussions with Mr. Fritz, on March 26, 1999, he stated that he would submit a petition for the McLaren F 1 and the Bugattis once he became a Registered Importer. This was to be done to correct importation of these vehicles. Fritz became an RI on March 23, 1999. To date no petitions have been received. If we take the position that they are US certified vehicles then no one may import a McLaren or Bugattis under Show or Display.
A 1994 Bugatti EBI 1OSS,,ZA9BBO2EORCD39O18 was imported on paper as a Box 3 and as a Box 7 electronically on December 23, 1997. For some reason the vehicle ended up in the trade. Customs called on a Bugatti in the trade zone on February 4, 1999. Based on the previous interp to Lipardt Customs was advised that the vehicle could not be conformed by Ameritech as the manufacturer. This vehicle was later exported to Canada and attempted reentry as a box 2A in March 1999. After being denied entry as a complying vehicle it entered as a box 3 with Fritz as the RI. To date no petition has been received.
If any of these vehicles are sold and inquiries are made how do we respond. How will the interp address this?
>>> Taylor Vinson 0 1/18/00 02:O5PM>>>
Dick Fritz phoned me this (Tues.) afternoon about the matter we discussed this morning. Apparently the initiative to reenter vehicles under show or display comes from OVSC and he does not understand the reason why. He does not want to upset his customers by telling them they have to reenter their vehicles at this late date. He does not want to send the letter whose draft he sent Luke last week, but was trying in the draft to accommodate his understanding of what OVSC wants.
There are 9 vehicles that he certified as the manufacturer, 7 of which were imported in 1997 and 2 in 1998. Seven are McLarens and two are Bugattis. All have VINs assigned him, and not to McLaren or Bugatti, Customs has liquidated the entries on all 9 vehicles.
When these vehicles left the trade zone, he informed me that 6 were entered under Box 2A and the remaining 3 under Box 3 or Box 7 of the HS declaration form. Although the proper way to enter these vehicles would have been pursuant to a part 593 determination and through a registered importer who would then conform them, I surmise that OVSC does not regard them as validly entered because conformance was performed in a trade zone, and that the way to cure this error is to change their status to show or display.
This appears to be a paper exercise with no safety benefit. The vehicles were admitted as certified and conforming in accordance with 49 Usc 30112, and customs liquidated the entries without demanding redelivery. That seems sufficiently legal to me that Fritz ought not to be advising owners at this late date that their vehicles were entered illegally. Any difficulties that an owner may have with insurance companies and state registrations are matters between Fritz and his customers.
Hed be happier letting the matter rest, and I should think we would be too.

jcsaleen
08-13-2004, 01:27 PM
My guess why the Mclaren isnt fully legal like any other car is just for the fact of emissions NOT hp. It would definetly pass all dot safety regulations with fly colors.

V-10
08-13-2004, 01:29 PM
"I don't think Leno's is actually classified as an "Ameritech F1" - though I could be wrong."

No, you're correct...it was brought in via normal show or display requirements. I believe in late 2000/early 2001

Best
Steve

gerd
08-13-2004, 06:12 PM
Leno's DOT was S&D. Leno's car was called a 1995 even though it is a 1994 because they used Fritz's/JK's cert to EPA the car. When you cert a car you test one, allow two in without testing although EPA has now clamped down. I believe Steve (along with MI) used Fritzee/JK's cert for 072 as well. Or maybe not. The JK cert is a joke. The BMW part numbers for the cats don't exist and don't carry proper BMW numbering. The cert also states that the cars are OBD II compliant. There is a JK signature to this. Which is why Mr. Smith (EPA) took a walk early, I believe. The cars were serviced at BMW's LA centre.


No, you're correct...it was brought in via normal show or display requirements. I believe in late 2000/early 2001

Best
Steve[/QUOTE]

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 06:24 PM
Still here. Still sorting who the real people are.

I've seen a few phonies around here, but I usually just assume that they are you.... ;) :lol: I mean - are you real? :confused: I have little to hide - I'm just a 28 yr old car enthusiast from Thousand Oaks, CA who's been intrigued by the F1 since it's creation, and that passion has grown in recent years as they've proliferated into the USA. I'd love to know more about the user know as 'gerd'. I have my suspicions, as I'm sure others do as well, but I could live without knowing I guess...

Peleton - you get it right most of the time.

Thanks - I'll take that as a compliment if you don't mind. I do try hard to make sure what I share is accurate or has been obtained through reliable sources. In fact, although we have our differences, you have proven to be one of those I would consider a "reliable source" even if you sometimes lace your info/replies with other things I'd consider a little wacky. :grinno: :nono: It would be nice to know the rest of what you know, but I do appreciate what you are willing to share when you do, and can understand why you might have some limitations. Fair enough, right?

Sorry you don't care. But you've probably never been a victim. Here is the memo, legally obtained. And you say there are no criminals :-)

Well it's true, I've never been a victim. I'm not in this business - I work in I.T. for a large financial institution - so how could I have been? I say there are no criminals because I don't believe in the foundations of the laws that keep these types of cars from our shores. It's probably a naive opinion to think that, but my passion for the cars overrides my sensibilities on the matter. Sure the laws have some good purpose, but I fully believe that exceptions should be made in certain situations where the cost to certify a vehicle under every FMVSS simply isn't practical. Obviously others agreed since we finally got something to make it happen in 1999, and cars like the Lotus Elise and Saleen S7 have been given waivers to get them onto our roads. Whether the 'Show or Display' piece of legislation was put through under a less than proper scenario or not doesn't concern me - I'm just glad it was done.

Hed be happier letting the matter rest, and I should think we would be too.

Does that mean your crusade is ending? You've had some pretty strong views in the past that don't coincide with that statement. I recall you suggesting long ago that these people who "broke the law" would eventually face prosecution and the cars in question were in jeopardy of being removed as well. Does this mean you no longer believe that stuff to be true? Just curious... Anyway - if that's the case, I'd be willing to stop giving you so much grief on the subject if that's what you were suggesting. :thumbsup:

I really want this forum to be a open and friendly environment where people feel free to share any info they might have. However, that won't happen if it appears there are persons here on some kind of witch hunt. That kind of behavior isn't conducive to that utopia I just described, ya know... ;)

Well that's my piece - call it the olive branch I guess. :lol: Let me know your thoughts, or go back to your normal habit of lurking if you want. I'll say again, that I have appreciated many of your positive contributions to this forum and would hope to see more in the future. :cool:

>8^)
ER

P.S.: Sorry to drag this thread off topic to discuss some of this, but I thought it would be beneficial to place the comments in the open forum since so many of the negative ones have been here as well.

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 06:29 PM
"I don't think Leno's is actually classified as an "Ameritech F1" - though I could be wrong."

No, you're correct...it was brought in via normal show or display requirements. I believe in late 2000/early 2001

Best
Steve

If you don't mind me asking, what is your association with Leno's F1?

Also, I believe that I'm right about his car being here in the USA in ~1998 - can you confirm or deny that at all? :confused: I'll have to check when I get home, but I have two photos of Leno's car as it was leaving Amerispec Corp that I got from a former employee there and I believe he claimed they were taken in 1998.

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-13-2004, 06:29 PM
Thousand Oaks, CA

I was just there 1 week ago thats a nice area. West lake very nice I saw a lambo a ferrari 360 challenge and many other nice cars.

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 06:41 PM
I was just there 1 week ago thats a nice area. West lake very nice I saw a lambo a ferrari 360 challenge and many other nice cars.

Thanks - I've been here since ~1989 and really like it too.

And yes, there's quite a bit of wealth in the area (especially Westlake Village/Malibu) and therefore lots of nice cars, but probably not as much as some other areas around SoCal like Bel Air/Beverly Hills or some of the areas in Orange County.

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-13-2004, 06:50 PM
My uncles has a porsche gt2 old version we went through the mountain pass to mailibu FUN :evillol: Those truck emergency brake fail/runnaway stops scared me though :screwy: has that ever happend when you have been there?

Peloton25
08-13-2004, 07:24 PM
Nope - I've never seen anyone use the runaway vehicle zones. I have seen a car avoid using them and it had crashed into the rock wall on the other side of PCH at the end of Kanan Rd. :eek: :lol: I'm assuming that's the one you are referring to.

= = = = =

Back to this....

Hed be happier letting the matter rest, and I should think we would be too.

Actually - after reading the letter once again, its somewhat unclear if that's actually a part of the letter, or something you added. I originally assumed you added it, thus I made my comments you see above. Now I'm beginning to think that was the wrong assumption - oops... :uhoh: :lol: - but the comments I made still stand. :thumbsup:

>8^)
ER

diabloroadster2
08-14-2004, 03:05 AM
silicon valley auto group took cliffs red mclaren to concorso italiano in monterey today. so be expecting lots of pictures of it to be popping up over the next few days.

it is indeed #28. i took a pic of the plaque, but it isnt super clear. i can post it when i get home in a few days

Peloton25
08-14-2004, 03:14 AM
Cool - it's always nice to hear that some McLaren owners here in the USA actually do "Show & Display" their cars. :thumbsup:

Waits impatiently for pics... :lol:

While I wait, I think I shall begin violently kicking myself for not making it up there again this year. :banghead: :banghead: :loser:

>8^)
ER

Peloton25
08-15-2004, 08:11 AM
If you don't mind me asking, what is your association with Leno's F1?

Also, I believe that I'm right about his car being here in the USA in ~1998 - can you confirm or deny that at all? :confused: I'll have to check when I get home, but I have two photos of Leno's car as it was leaving Amerispec Corp that I got from a former employee there and I believe he claimed they were taken in 1998.

>8^)
ER

I'm quoting myself to record this moment in history - I made a mistake and was spreading false information up there when I had the evidence to correct myself right under my nose. :banghead: Please forgive me... :lol2:

I checked the image properties on those two photos of Leno's F1 I received from the Amerispec employee and they were taken on 8/04/2000 @ 9:13 and 9:21 AM with a Ricoh RDC-5300 camera (pretty nifty how you can see all that stuff - ;) ). So, I was wrong and I guess Leno's car didn't get here in 1998. Shame on me... :thumbsdow :loser: ;)

= = = = =

I also went back to the forum where I was passed those photos, and found the post they came from. I wanted to see if there was any additional info in regards to the dates - thinking that I must have read that 1998 date somewhere. :screwy: :lol:

Here's a copy of the text of his post with the photos as he presented it.

Hey, I'm the guy who worked at Amerispec. Amerispec unfortunately doesn't have a website.
Yeah, ever since that collector car law was announced, McLarens don't have to go through that uglification process. It's funny, because there are a bunch of those bumper-ette things lying around Amerispec. Oh, and all the modifications were done without drilling one hole, or cutting one wire for easy reversal.

This is a McLaren being loaded into the transporter.

http://a4.cpimg.com/image/62/6E/38040674-17a7-028001AD-.jpg

Those are my sneakers on the edge cause I'm in the car :)

http://a9.cpimg.com/image/7B/6F/38040699-cb54-028001AD-.jpg

One thing I regret was never getting a chance to ride in (or really drive) that car.



I asked him if he had more photos and info, but he never came back to reply. That post was dated 8-25-2002 - almost two years old now - and that date happens to be my birthday, so I guess this pair of photos were like gifts to me on that day. :thumbsup:

= = = = =

Here's some other humorous items to come from that nearly two year old thread:

- Apparently I had only seen photos of Leno's, Beal's, Selldorff's #007, Blair's XP4, and Kennedy's F1 at the time of that thread as far as cars confirmed to be in the USA were concerned. :disappoin :lol:

- I still thought that Kennedy's F1 was the last road car made, painted "Yquem" :banghead: :nono:

- At the time I was following up on a rumors from M5.com that Mr Selldorff also owned a GTR that was kept in England - we all know the end to that story. :D

- I only had approximately 1000 images in my F1 photo archive at the time. Now that figure hovers closer to 7000 or so. :eek:

My how time can change things... :bigthumb:

>8^)
ER

gerd
08-15-2004, 09:39 AM
"Hed be happier letting the matter rest, and I should think we would be too."

No my quote. This is the telling line from the OVSC memo that OVSC knew and covered it up.

Remember, things are not always as they appear. Several people on this forum have attempted to tracer route and other wise hack me. Which is good for record keeping and by design. The person you think I am does not as a rule post. But I am grateful to him, by design. As I have ruminated before, being on the web is like being on an elevator - you never know who is listening.

I am not aware of any waviers for the Elise or the Saleen S7. The older Elise is illegal.

cche2052
08-15-2004, 12:08 PM
Do you know if it's still that beautiful shade of Aubergine?

>8^)
ER

Hey Peloton, do you (or anyone else) have a picture of the aubergine car? I've never seen pictures of it. Does it really look like one big eggplant?

Peloton25
08-15-2004, 02:52 PM
"Hed be happier letting the matter rest, and I should think we would be too."

No my quote. This is the telling line from the OVSC memo that OVSC knew and covered it up.

You're most certainly correct on that point, it is a very telling line. :eek7: ;) But, I'll go back to an argument I made long ago when this was a more actively debated topic around here.

Who was/is the victim here? :confused:

If you're going to claim that you were a victim because you weren't able to get away with the same tricks then I just really have a hard time feeling sorry for you in that regard. You're going to need more than "Its not fair" - honestly, did it truly "cost" you anything because Fritz played his games? I'd imagine justifying your loss may be hard to quantify given that when Fritz was active with these cars there was not a way to do it within all the letters of the law. Certainly, assuming you're in the same business as Fritz, you can't claim that you lost any real customers during that time. I mean it sucks, but it's hardly something to be bitter over when more than 5 years have passed since the theoretical injustice occurred.

I suspect I am a lot younger than you are, but even I have realized that it's quite often people with friends in high places are allowed to get away with things many others are not. There's no need to get all bent out of shape about it - that's just the way this world works sometimes. In the grand scheme of things (and I know you used to debate this heavily with a certain member who no longer hangs around here) who was really harmed by allowing these 7 very powerful, but very safe and very clean-running McLaren F1s into the USA? Do you really feel that the entire country is placed in some kind of danger by allowing these cars onto the public roadways of the USA? I sure don't see the dangers.

Remember, things are not always as they appear. Several people on this forum have attempted to tracer route and other wise hack me.

Well, to be very frank, maybe that's because you've acted like an ass at times. People who have extreme opinions and voice them publicly are often attacked or ridiculed (there's another fact of life for you) and this behavior goes back to the beginning of time practically. Again I will ask you - is this really something you feel so strongly about, as to continue with your crusade? If so, why? :confused:

Which is good for record keeping and by design. The person you think I am does not as a rule post. But I am grateful to him, by design.

How do you know who I think you are? I can think of several possibilities and am am well aware of the fact that my lack of information could allow you to be someone I have never even considered or have any knowledge of. Like I said, I can live without knowing I guess. I'll just continue referring to you as "Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease" - you know: heartburn, acid regurgitation, and other symptoms that make you sick to your stomach and make things painful top swallow. Kind of an ironic analogy, huh? :evillol:

As I have ruminated before, being on the web is like being on an elevator - you never know who is listening.

True - very true.

I am not aware of any waviers for the Elise or the Saleen S7. The older Elise is illegal.

Both cars were certified for sale after receiving waivers for certain FMVSS'. I don't have the exact details, but someone as resourceful and connected as yourself should have no trouble finding the info if you're so inclined.

I guess my olive branch didn't interest you... Oh well. :)

>8^)
ER

mini magic
08-15-2004, 03:13 PM
I'll just continue referring to you as "Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease" - you know: heartburn, acid regurgitation, and other symptoms that make you sick to your stomach and make things painful top swallow. Kind of an ironic analogy, huh? :evillol:

Great, great comeback. :worshippy

gerd
08-17-2004, 08:03 AM
Sticks and stones...

Nice try at engagement.

We all have our reasons for being here. Like I said about the elevator.

I don't read all the content of your posts. Just enough to stop.

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 10:36 AM
Sticks and stones...

Nice try at engagement.

I don't want to fight here - that's not my goal. Understand that with your attitude, you're not really welcome here. At least not from my perspective - maybe others will agree. Change your tune, and I'll change mine. I already mentioned one member who you've driven away. There are probably others who remain in the shadows that we don't even know about, or active ones who keep things to themselves so as to avoid sharing them with you. For those of us who aren't here for devious reasons, like myself and many of the other passionate members of the forum, your presence and attitude is surely hurting our cause. :thumbsdow

We all have our reasons for being here. Like I said about the elevator.

I don't read all the content of your posts. Just enough to stop.

I tried to bury the hatchet here, but you still don't want to play. :loser:

It's obvious you fear having an open exchange and actually answering my 'tough' questions. Why not just go back to lurking and trolling with alternate usernames then - your participation here won't be missed. :disappoin

>8^)
ER

V-10
08-17-2004, 01:42 PM
Wow..... I guess I got the party a little late to hear the fireworks. I'm a rookie to these boards and don't always have time to read each post so I'll apologize in advance for my ignorance.

Can someone bring me up to speed on the controversy over importation of a few cars that collectively put out less emmissions than a weedeater?

Best
Steve

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 02:00 PM
The claim is that it wasn't done "by the book" and that the letter of the law at the time did not allow Amerispec Corp run by Dick Fritz to import those 7 F1s the way he did. The report is furthered by claims that Fritz had insider help at the DOT and other various agencies to get these cars through the red tape a little easier.

There's also has a discussion in regards to the later model year McLarens being allowed in now under "Show & Display", as apparently there is no real way to meet the EPAs OBD-II requirements for post-1995 cars with the F1. Someone must have figured out a way to appease the EPA though, as a few of these cars are now "here".

That's it in a nutshell. Our outspoken opponent may have more to add in the way of details or "proof". :rolleyes:

>8^)
ER

TRD2000
08-17-2004, 03:35 PM
so america got some good cars and then people complain? america makes thousands of crap cars every day and it's seen as a good thing! i'm confused...

V-10
08-17-2004, 03:40 PM
Just curious...

What harm is done (ie. who is injured or hurt) by the importation of a few "show or display" vehicles? Each time one of these cars enters the country, customs collects their duties, the EPA gets their fee of several thousand bucks. Last time I checked the gov isn't running a budget surplus and in this case the taxpayer isn't footing the bill for a few wealthy individuals to have their toys.

IMO, the DOT/EPA is responsible for hundreds of thousands of cars entering the country annually. I don't know individuals in these agencies on a personal level so I can't speak to their motivation, but it appears that an inordinate amount of time and energy is being spent giving a difficult time to a few automotive enthusiasts that want a special piece in their collection.

Best
Steve

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 03:44 PM
But cars from 03+ can wait 2 years to get checked by emissions im not sayn the Mclaren is 1 of them but other exotics like ferraris,lambos & nope cant say saleen :grinno: TVR then all could wait two years before getting the show & display permit.

(I dont know if the 2 year rule applies to exoitics or just mass production models)

TRD2000
08-17-2004, 03:47 PM
thats cause the saleen relies on a 1948 chevy truck engine.... i think the drivetrain passed already

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 03:47 PM
V-10 - you echo my opinions on the issues as well.

I don't know what drives this person, and they have yet to properly explain their position despite repeated attempts to get the answer out of him.

Based on the back and forth discussion he and I have had in the previous posts in this thread, I'm guessing the answer you are looking for is lot like the answer to this question:

"How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?"

THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW :screwy: :grinno:

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 03:49 PM
thats cause the saleen relies on a 1948 chevy truck engine.... i think the drivetrain passed already

No a very highly tuned V8. :loser:

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 03:55 PM
But cars from 03+ can wait 2 years to get checked by emissions im not sayn the Mclaren is 1 of them but other exotics like ferraris,lambos & nope cant say saleen :grinno: TVR then all could wait two years before getting the show & display permit.

(I dont know if the 2 year rule applies to exoitics or just mass production models)

It has nothing to do with exotics, or not exotics. New cars in CA are free from emissions testing for 4-5 years now, however these are cars where the manufacturer has done the work ahead of time to get them certified for sale here.

The issue with trying to bring a car in which is younger than 25 years old which was never certified for sale here is that the EPA requires you do the work (through a Registered Importer) to bring it into compliance with the rules which were in effect for the year the car was originally manufacturered.

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 03:57 PM
Well there is 1 way lol you could save 10 years and move to canada. :naughty: :evillol:

TRD2000
08-17-2004, 04:00 PM
ok ok so its a 1948 chevy truck engine with fuel injection! i give in!

(have to say it looks ffin cool though! you can see they checked the F1 for styling (good move) they just didn't pay much attn to mechanics, heavily worked 1948 truck engine Vs purpose built f1 inspired bavarian V12)

V-10
08-17-2004, 04:03 PM
I don't know what drives this person, and they have yet to properly explain their position despite repeated attempts to get the answer out of him.

>8^)
ER

I think the answer is one of three possibilities or a combination of them:

A) The jealousy syndrome "I can't have it so you shouldn't be able to either."

B) The low self-esteem syndrome "If I make a fuss everyone will notice me."

or
C) The Barney Fife syndrome "Let's enforce every law on the books to the letter, paragraph and period and because I have a badge you have to pay attention to me.

sorry just thinking...

Best
Steve

TRD2000
08-17-2004, 04:05 PM
good call steve

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 04:05 PM
thats cause the saleen relies on a 1948 chevy truck engine.... i think the drivetrain passed already

The engine might be based on a design that dates back that far, but that's not the way the EPA will look at it.

The waivers that the S7 received have to do with certain Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards - a complex list of rules and guidelines governing vehicle design as it pertains to occupant safety. Saleen realized they could not meet all of them early on in their development process as it would be far too costly for them to burden. They were able to get the waivers for a short time to allow them to sell enough cars to be able to afford the further development. They recently renewed their application for those waivers, claiming that they haven't sold enough cars yet to be able to meet the guidelines they are side-stepping.

Here's the document if anyone cares to read it. The text begins in the middle of the 1st page. Its an Adobe .PDF file:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/pdf/04-1272.pdf

I have this in text format too and can paste it in here if anyone is interested. It's all kind of off topic, but I thought I'd paste what I had in here before the discussion went much further off track with specualtion.

>8^)
ER

TRD2000
08-17-2004, 04:07 PM
hmmm how much does one of these things cost again? we've established xp-2 hit a wall for mclaren and they would have used HEAPS more in development than the S7...

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 04:09 PM
I think the answer is one of three possibilities or a combination of them:

A) The jealousy syndrome "I can't have it so you shouldn't be able to either."

B) The low self-esteem syndrome "If I make a fuss everyone will notice me."

or
C) The Barney Fife syndrome "Let's enforce every law on the books to the letter, paragraph and period and because I have a badge you have to pay attention to me.

sorry just thinking...

Best
Steve

I addition to that GREAT list, I would add this one, which is really just a modification to "A":

A) I wasn't able to do it too, so no one else should be able to get away with it either.

>8^)
ER

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 04:14 PM
hmmm how much does one of these things cost again? we've established xp-2 hit a wall for mclaren and they would have used HEAPS more in development than the S7...

It doesn't mean that the S7 was never crash tested, it has to do with other things like the development of airbags, and now advanced airbags.

Actually, here's a good quote from the text:

In order to comply with the requirements of Standard No. 208, petitioner would have to redesign the following equipment: (1) Steering
wheel; (2) Steering column; (3) Dash panel (4) Gauge pod; (5) Seats and seat brackets; (6) Center console; (7) Interior trim panels; and (8) Wiring harness. Petitioner expects to rely on the continuous sales of S7 vehicles in order to fund a redesign of the above components. As previously stated, sales of the vehicle were delayed until March of 2003. As a result, petitioner did not have the resources necessary to bring the S7 in compliance with the non-advanced air bag requirements of Standard No. 208.

If we could drop this discussion considering this is the McLaren F1 forum, that would be great. I was only using it as an example in an earlier post to make a point, not to drive the topic in that direciton.

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 04:24 PM
ok ok so its a 1948 chevy truck engine with fuel injection! i give in!


Thank you much better :biggrin:

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 04:26 PM
isnt there some company that legalizes them? Like motorex does with skylines oh wait used to do any way :disappoin

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 04:35 PM
Some company that legalizes what? :confused:

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 06:19 PM
A company that would legalize cars (exotics) to meet us standards.

Btw ~ y arent u a mod?

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 06:37 PM
A company that would legalize cars (exotics) to meet us standards.

Btw ~ y arent u a mod?

Yes there are companies that perform that work - the government calls them "Registered Importers". A company needs to be approved as an RI before they are able to submit the applications for vehicle approvals and handle the conversions. There are also Independent Commercial Importers that play a similar, but I would assume somewhat different role. I'm still trying to learn the distinction between an RI and an ICI.

Here's a recent list of RIs:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/web_RI_list07142004.html

Not all of those companies will specialize in exotics, and not all exotics are elligible or able to be certified. It's a convoluted process and admittedly, in my research to learn more about them, I have so far barely scratched the surface.

I dunno why I'm not a mod - this forum could sure use a little discipline every now and then. ;) :lol2:

>8^)
ER

MalkaJB
08-17-2004, 07:29 PM
I dunno why I'm not a mod - this forum could sure use a little discipline every now and then. ;) :lol2:

>8^)
ER

I suggested that a long time ago, but no one responed to my suggestion. :wink:

Come on guys, settle down. I'm having Supercars.net flashbacks here.

BTW, how come the McLaren forum doesn't have a steady moderator like some of the other big forums. Maybe we should ask Igor if he would make someone like Peloton or Mini a moderator so mindless banter like this won't be a problem anymore.

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 07:51 PM
I'm one of 5 Admins on another message forum with well over 10,000 registered users actually, so I certainly have the experience required. I'm not sure the job is open here though. I talked to Oz (2nd in command, I believe) once or twice in the past about it and he told me they already had too many moderators on the forums. I don't think they specifically assign people to each one like other places and I guess none of their active moderators are interested in this forum as I rarely see one posting in here.

I've also sent at least one PM to Igor@AF requesting the slot long ago and never heard back. We rarely have problems in this forum though, so I just bother Oz now when I think something should be locked or deleted. I figure if I become enough of a thorn in his side, or he realizes that every time I hit him up I'm making the right call, maybe he'll break down and give me the reigns.

Anyway - I think only a letter writing campaign could make it happen, and like I said we don't have enough issues in here to warrant me starting one.

>8^)
ER

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 07:56 PM
There are no mods on the mclaren forums so how can he say there are 2 many we need 1 here and u would be perfect I dont c whats the big deal about making u a mod.

Register R.I ~ MOTOREX 15607 NEW CENTURY DR, GARDENA, CA 90248 :biggrin: hehe

Thorst13
08-17-2004, 08:00 PM
E for mod!

MalkaJB
08-17-2004, 08:35 PM
Register R.I ~ MOTOREX 15607 NEW CENTURY DR, GARDENA, CA 90248 :biggrin: hehe

Gov. List of R.I.'s - http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/graymarket_RI_list05282004.html

Look carefully at the middle of the list, and you might see a familiar name. :sunglasse

Edit: Actually, 2 familiar names.

jcsaleen
08-17-2004, 08:40 PM
Im lost im not sure which 1's you are talking about show the names and ill kno.

Peloton25
08-17-2004, 08:55 PM
I recognize a bunch of them actually - but I have been doing some research on the subject.

This is probably the one you are referring to:

AMERISPEC CORPORATION
190 GEORGE WASHINGTON HWY, RIDGEFIELD, CT 06877

...but I believe that these others have had their hands in bringing in some of the other McLarens under "Show & Display".

= = = = =

G & K AUTOMOTIVE *
3231 SOUTH STANDARD AVE, SANTA ANA, CA 92705

J.K. TECHNOLOGIES *
3500 SWEET AIR ST, BALTIMORE, MD 21211

WALLACE ENVIRONMENTAL TEST LAB *
2140 WIRTCREST LA, HOUSTON, TX 77055
www.wallacelab.com

= = = = =

Those three with the '*' are also registered with the EPA as ICI's - I think I'm discovering the distinction now. RI is the DOT's acronym and ICI is the EPA's. All ICI's also appear to be RI's, but not vice versa. Looks like Ameritech is not yet in the good graces of the EPA. I recall they had J.K. Technologies help with the Ameritech F1s.

>8^)
ER

MalkaJB
08-18-2004, 03:18 AM
You are correct Peloton, but remember, I said that two would be recognizable to most of us. The two that I was reffering to in my post were the AMERISPEC CORPORATION and J.K. TECHNOLOGIES. I think that those are the two most widely known for bringing in McLarens.

gerd
08-18-2004, 06:17 AM
RI's - Registered importers. DOT. OVSC. Title 49 CFR
ICI's - Indpendent Comercial Importers. EPA. OTAQ. Title 40 CFR

If you read the DOT memo, Fritzee/Ameritech was not an RI nor an ICI when the 7 (8) McLarens were brought in. He called himself a manufacturer. DOT choose to cover this fact up. I think he had inside help in this scenario. MY opinion. I don't believe he has any employees, only some help from a local shop. The JK "certs" appear to be BMW car 12 cylinder certs. It has been well known within the importing circles that using a similar engine for example like a MB 600 series 12 cylinder to "test" (cert) as a CLK GTR is common. Sound familiar? Oh, am I giving away too many secrets?

The memo also spells out how the scam worked. Call youself a manufacturer, subcontract the work to JK. EPA and DOT regs do not allow subcontracting on this basis. But, hey, when you're on a roll with ignoring rules, with support from the rule makers, what's the difference? I'm sure this methodology sounds familiar to some here on the forum.

mini magic
08-18-2004, 09:47 AM
I'm sure this methodology sounds familiar to some here on the forum.


Dude, why don't you just drop the whole thing now? What can you do about it besides make annoying little remarks about it? Give it up, there are plenty more fish in the sea.

V-10
08-18-2004, 09:58 AM
Gerd
Are you suggesting that JK didn't test a Mclaren/BMW engine when they received their cert for the car? If so, how would one pull that off. Would you drop a 750il engine into a Mclaren chassis?

Best
Steve

Peloton25
08-18-2004, 12:54 PM
RI's - Registered importers. DOT. OVSC. Title 49 CFR
ICI's - Indpendent Comercial Importers. EPA. OTAQ. Title 40 CFR

If you read the DOT memo, Fritzee/Ameritech was not an RI nor an ICI when the 7 (8) McLarens were brought in. He called himself a manufacturer. DOT choose to cover this fact up. I think he had inside help in this scenario. MY opinion. I don't believe he has any employees, only some help from a local shop. The JK "certs" appear to be BMW car 12 cylinder certs. It has been well known within the importing circles that using a similar engine for example like a MB 600 series 12 cylinder to "test" (cert) as a CLK GTR is common. Sound familiar? Oh, am I giving away too many secrets?

The memo also spells out how the scam worked. Call youself a manufacturer, subcontract the work to JK. EPA and DOT regs do not allow subcontracting on this basis. But, hey, when you're on a roll with ignoring rules, with support from the rule makers, what's the difference? I'm sure this methodology sounds familiar to some here on the forum.

Thanks for the info. :cool:

I don't see anyone disputing the claims you make about what transpired oh so long ago with those 7 F1s. But, remind us again "Barney", who is all this hurting? :confused:

>8^)
ER

BTW: "Barney" is a lot easier to type than "Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease" :biggrin: :p

gerd
08-18-2004, 03:09 PM
Hey, Ray. Like X-ray or ray gun. Why is it suppose to hurt someone? But let's talk about hurt. Those of us that have been screwed, myself included on five cars, have been hurt. Everytime another "breaker of the rules" selfishly gets his car in not caring what his screw-ball antics do to others, it hurts. Financially. And there are thousands who have been hurt. Yes, thousands. Plus the taxpayers. But I'll leave that alone.

The F1 could have been done differently where EPA was concerned. Offers were made. But other choices where made. It doesn't surprise me that now it comes back to bite them in the ...

You and others critizise me on this, terrorism, etc. The apathy is abundant. "As long as I get my car in, so what." philosophy is why the world is the way it is.

Anyway, I'm outta here, off to der Motherland for some real driving.

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