maarten, you were way off. there are also ( i believe) 2 more cars mclaren has that are for sale

Well, well, well....

Suspicions are confirmed - that is chassis #075 - the last road car. I thought it was odd when it looked so similar to Dan Kennedy's F1 in the photos from the Supercar Rally. Since his car was painted to look similar to the last road car it only made sense. In previous pictures of this car it has always looked burgundy in color.

Based on who the current owner was, I'm no longer surprised that McLaren Cars would outfit this car with an LM-spec engine.

I can't wait to read the full details listed on the Christie's Auction site.

And jomo - tell your dad he really, really, really wants this McLaren. ;)

>8^)
ER

i've known for a while :biggrin:

please take a look at
www.autosalon-singen.de
there are 2 F1 for sale
not bad...

i've known for a while :biggrin:

Do you want a cookie? :rolleyes:

>8^|
ER

i was just dying to tell all of you, i had to hold it in, so a cookie would be nice...

Sorry - no cookies for you.

I thought we were all here to work together?? :confused: :(

>8^|
ER

i wasn't at liberty to tell anyone, i would have, trust me

Can you tell me if the car has the same gear box as the lm. If anyone has any info about how many miles its got that would be good. Thanks

We'll probably have to wait until the full decription is released from Christies for all the details. Their description on chassis #011 was excellent.

The Car Experience for sale link that is posted in the "Burgundy Pics" thread lists the mileage as "18,000 Kilometers" however I think that link is somewhat old. As far as the transmission, I would suspect that it still has a road car transmission as the extra noise created by the LMs box would be unbearable for regular road use.

BTW: I would love to have a regular F1 road car with the LM engine and the road car transmission. Can you say 250mph with the limiter removed?? :D

>8^)
ER

When you find out can you let me know. Which car is #11

The blue one w/ downforce kit, http://tvrfreak.com/Albums/Trips/2002%2006%2007%20London/05%20McLaren/DSC02839.JPG

I was expecting 065 to be the car up for auction. We all know that it has been out of the park lane showroom for some time now while it recieves one serious service. As it is not the car going under the hammer, do you think that McLaren already have a buyer or perhaps the cars original owner (Ron Dennis or some other big cheese at McLaren) actually wants to be able to drive the thing?

EDIT: And one other thing. Peleton was saying he would love to see a macca with an LM engine and a standard gearbox cos that would give an estimated 250mph Vmax. Correct me if i'm wrong but i always thought it was the drag caused by the huge wing the prevented the LM having a higher top speed than the standard car, and not the gearbox. So to get a really high Vmax you should take the wing of an LM.

I'm probably wrong, but that was my understanding of it.

For the #065 car - I would expect that they may already have had a buyer for that car when it was removed from the showroom otherwise it probably would have just stayed in there until it was replaced by an SLR if that is really the plan.

= = = = =

The wing isn't the only thing slowing down the LM - it's gearbox features a shorter gearset which wouldn't allow a high enough maximum speed. I believe it's theoretical maximum is in the neighborhood of 220 mph with short ratio gears.

Also, there is a balance created from the front and rear aerodynamic pieces fitted to the LM. You couldn't simply remove the wing in the rear without also removing the splitter in the front and expect the car to handle well.

Since the aerodynamics of the road car body have already proven themselves up to 240.1 mph I wouldn't be too worried pushing that design a bit further. Andy Wallace claimed there was only a small window where the car became a handful during the top speed run. As the car got faster, it actually settled back down.

Contrary to my earlier statement, I don't actually believe that the LM engine's extra 50 or so horsepower would push an F1 road car to a much higher speed. At speeds above 180mph, it really takes a lot of extra power to gain much speed at all. It would be lucky to add even a few miles per hour.

>8^)
ER

Thanks for clearing that up. At the risk of getting way off the topic, given the short ratio box CAR magazines 0-100-0 times are not that impressive. For example they got 0-60 in 4.0 seconds. Surely the LM can blitz this (is the official 060 not 3.2 seconds?)?

I don't have the article in front of me, but I do seem to recall that the airstrip they used for the 0-100-0 testing was not the greatest in terms of traction. Had they been using an actual drag strip for testing with a build up of rubber, surely the car would have performed even better. Under optimum conditions, I suspect the LM could shave about a half a second off the F1 road car's 0-60mph time.

>8^)
ER

I'd be skeptical--I think 0.1 better than the F1 roadcar would be achievable by most people, and 0.15-0.2 sec improvements might be seen by a pro at most. It's all about traction and a good launch. With a car that light, putting out that much power, you'd need a lot of skill and practice to be able to put it all to the ground.

But I would love to be proven wrong!

Which reminds me, anyone have any McLaren laptimes of famous circuits? I would love to see those and compare them to the Enzo's.

somewhere on sc.net there were some mclaren lap times, i'll go look

I just read somewhere that the car has 500miles since the lm engine. Now when they do and lm engine is there a totally new engine that goes in or just some better parts are put into the engine?

it said "lm spec" so i assumed they just added (or took away) parts to make the engine like that

When they tested the 0-100-0 on the LM they let a little bit of air out of the tires. That might have had an effect. I was actually just looking at an online article about it last night: http://www.mclarencars.com/content/sections/features/lmto100.htm There are some pretty nice pics there, including one of an LM burnout.

IMHO, it's stupid they call it kandy orange
for chateau d'yquem, as is the official name of the wine the color of the car is named after, is a really really really expensive wine, about 200$ dollars a bottle. I saw 3 bottles in some store when i was in france, and i instantly made the McLaren connection, and if it had not been so ridiculously expensive, i had probably even bought one.
Yquem is the official color name of the car, and yquem sounds certainly more illustrous than kandy orange.
i'm a bit stupid, innit?

Keeping with the acceleration theme, Autocars' (and therefore the official) figures give 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and 0-100 in 6.3 seconds for the standard car. Why then do i keep seeing figures like 3.7 and 3.8 for the 0-60?

The LM may not be able to beat the standard cars' 0-60 by much, as previously explained, but its 0-100 must be amazing. Less than six seconds probably, the time it takes most sports cars to reach 60.

btw
the wine i saw was much lighter much more yellow than this...

Chateau d'Yquem is often many different colors as the color of the wine changes as it ages. The bottle you saw was more than likely fairly new if it was only $200, hence the yellow tone to the color. Here's some examples of different ages of the wine - you can see that some of them truly do look like the colors on the two McLarens.

http://a6.cpimg.com/image/54/1B/24832596-b1ad-00ED015E-.jpg http://a9.cpimg.com/image/57/1B/24832599-c029-00AA00C8-.jpg http://a3.cpimg.com/image/5B/1B/24832603-5cdc-009D00C8-.jpg http://a7.cpimg.com/image/5F/1B/24832607-26e5-01090109-.jpg

The first one is a '67, and the last almost looks like '63 or another '67.

Also, I think when light shines through the bottles as it's doing in the middle photos, that also makes a big difference.

Anyway, my :2cents:

>8^)
ER

Not for sale at Christies, but found another GTR that looks like its for sale:
http://www.fast-autos.net/features/03rmauction/69.html

That car is already sold. It was at Monterey, CA in August over the summer during all the auctions and shows. Symbolic motors sold the car.

Good find. Looks like car 27R which was originally a Parabolica Motorsport car, but was entered in the '97 Le Mans by Team Lark McLaren where it failed to finish.

If you have never gone to Monterey during all the auctions and stuff, you should try and go next year it was alot of fun.

A big of digging has proved me wrong. It is infact car 19R. Go to symbolicmotors.com 'cos they've got a lot of good information and pictures about the car. The car has been sold however.

Sorry i have to double post to make all of you aware of the quality of the photos. They are very good. Check them out at

http://www.symbolicmotors.com/frames/images/Classics/CurrentClassics/1997McLaren/mclaren_stills/index.html

http://www.symbolicmotors.com/framesets/page2.html scroll down to you see the mclaren then hit photo gallery and there are tons of good pics there.

u beat me to it

How many switches does one car need? What do you suppose the four buttons on the steering wheel are for (picture 19)?

my guess for "drk" (dark) is the for the lights. dont have a clue about the rest

Good find. Looks like car 27R which was originally a Parabolica Motorsport car, but was entered in the '97 Le Mans by Team Lark McLaren where it failed to finish.
its chassis #019R, the mclaren development car for the 97 season, peloton will prob. fill u in more

We've already worked that out. The only thing i want peleton to know is the name of the new owner as there is enough info on the car itself on the SMCC website.

We've already worked that out. The only thing i want peleton to know is the name of the new owner as there is enough info on the car itself on the SMCC website.
its in florida now

how do you know that?

how do you know that?
i just know these things ;)

i'm sure you do.......

i'm sure you do.......
fine, whatever. I'm not here to argue

A better quesiton is "Why can't you tell us??" :confused:

>8^)
ER

ok, whatever, its no big deal (56k warning ont he link btw).

Some guy said it was shipped to Florida on this page: http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=111174&highlight=mclaren


"Shit, seeing that mclaren reminds me of seeing one being hauled away in La Jolla today. It was race spec and heading to florida "

See... sharing is such a wonderful thing. Don't you feel better about yourself now?

Your mother should be proud. ;)

>8^)
ER

lol, she's not, i spend to much time on here :)

I have been following your reasoning as to the identity of the Christies McLaren to be auctioned off soon. I need to make a correction. This is most certainly not #075. Also, the previous suggestions that it is perhaps #059 are incorrect. The owner of this car and the owner of the blue downforce kit car that just sold at Christies (#011) were brothers. Perhaps, thus the similarity in taste and the similarity in sales approaches.

It may help to clearly state the car has been repainted from its original color. I believe the interior was also changed.

Keep up the detective work. I may help out if needed.

But it's no mystery that the last road car was sold to one of those brothers and it was painted this color. That in and of itself seems fairly convincing to me. :confused:

BTW: I would normally take anything that you have to say in relation to the McLaren F1 as law, but in this case the other evidence points to it being the last road car. I will certainly let you tell me that "you told me so" once the Christie's auction description is released if you are indeed correct. :iceslolan ;)

>8^)
ER

I can happily wait until then to tell you the chassis number. Perhaps a small wager is in order.

Just to be sure, I will check a second time. I do want to make certain that I am correct. I would rather double check my information than win a bet or be considered less than law..

i'm going with #075, i trust my source ;)

Lets see what peloton has to say about this

I'm waiting on the Christies info. My gut feeling is that is #075, but I trust that XOTech has good sources, so he might very well be right. The Christies auction info should dispell any question about which car this really is. I certainly won't be placing any bets based on my assumptions, but I will be surprised if they are incorrect.

To be honest, I was initially disappointed by the realization that the last road car had been converted with the LM-Kit. I think the last car should remain pure to the originals personally. So I'll actually be somewhat pleased if this ends up being a different car altogether.

>8^)
ER

yes, i was feeling the same too. there is almost nothing original about it

Peloton25, wasn`t Vin#075 property of Aziz Ojjeh, brother of Mansour Ojjeh (share owner of McLaren through the TAG Group)?

If this car is really #75, and If he(Aziz Ojjeh) was the owner, then I`m questioning myself, why didn`t they sell the car through McLaren directly? At least I would do it that way, If I was the owner of the company and of the car. Then again, If was owner of McLaren, I would never sell my McLaren F1.

Here is a picture of the last F1 (075) with Ron Dennis and Aziz Ojjeh

http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/4435/lastone.jpg

Everything you state is/was true as I knew the story. In the past week I have heard that the last road car was actually Mansour's and that the Blue F1 with the LM-Kit that Christies auctioned last time was Aziz's.

As far as why they are selling the cars at Christies... :confused:

Maybe they are looking for the exposure and the ability to get offers from all around the world on these cars. Maybe they are looking to get rid of the cars quickly - I'm not quite sure.

I do prefer the info that comes out of the Christies Auction catalog in comparison to most of the other ads we see for F1's around the web which have hardly any information about the car itself. We're often lucky to get the year associated with a car and sometimes that's not even accurate.

>8^)
ER

If I understand ...

you think that one of the brothers, bought a McLaren some times ago at Christies and that the other one is selling his car next month ?

a bit strange !

No, sort of the opposite - the brothers owned both of these cars and are now selling both by way of Christies Auction. Seems odd they would both get rid of their cars at the same time. Maybe they see a bubble in the value with all the newer competitors coming up?

>8^)
ER

#011 was initially for sale directly from mclaren, and since they couldn't sell it themselves (asking price was a rumoured 900.000 GBP) i think they later decided to go to christies.
as for the other car... i don't know, but wasn't that carfor sale quite recently?

it was for sale in France b4 christies

No guess. It's #073. One of two true road cars with the correct LM engine and LM components.

Well if you're correct...

HOW DARE THEY PAINT THE AMG GREEN VELVET CAR THAT ORANGE COLOR!!!! :angryfire :swear: :angryfire

Interesting info though - thanks for sharing.

>8^)
ER

yeah, i liked it in its original color. AMG velvet would look nice with an LM kit tho i think. This may also "confirm" tom has another F1 road car. here is some additional info:


"The car for sale on Dec. 2 is #073. It is one of only two road cars fitted with a correct LM engine. Reports from McLaren test drivers state that after installation of the LM components the drivers felt this to be the ultimate McLaren F1 car for road use. 18,000 km. , 3,000 since LM convertion. Also included in the sale is the complete Facom tool set, the 073 wrist watch, fitted luggage, users manuals.
It is estimated that this car will 500,000 - 600,000 Sterling."

I'm fairly convinced that Tom's green F1 was not #073 afterall, but actually chassis #051. I decided that after seeing this thread:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=139983&highlight=green

Where did you get those notes on the Christies car btw?

>8^)
ER

ohh man, i have to re-write all my notes now! :(



I have a source for the chritsies info, i don't want to say any more, i'll post more info if i get it

more info:


"The instrument panel incorporates a gear change light. The chassis number is engraved in the rev counter. F1 motifs on the doors and both sides of the rear wing, in a special silver.
691 bhp, 735 NM torque."

Neat - I noticed the silver F1 motifs on the doors in Andrew's photos of the car. It's a shame he wasn't able to get a clear shot of the gauges.

>8^)
ER

yeah, i love the gauges of the F1


btw, are u saying that toms green f1 is for sale at the dealer in Europe and no longer in his posession?

I would assume so - it could also be there on consignment.

>8^)
ER

Wasn't there one F1 that had 740 horses? If it's not #73, which one is it?

yes, we don't know

So let me get this straight its #73 for sale thats a green one with lm kit. Not #75.

Like I said - I'm waiting for the Christies info...

But apparently per the latest info: the car for sale is #073, it is no longer green, it has an LM-spec engine.

>8^)
ER

more info:


Gordon Murray hand-signed the carbon fire area between the chassis plate and gear shift. Upgraded AC. Larger radiators. Note louvers on the rear wing. Spoked, forged multi spoked wheels exclusive to this car. Michelin tires.

more info:


Gordon Murray hand-signed the carbon fire area between the chassis plate and gear shift. Upgraded AC. Larger radiators. Note louvers on the rear wing. Spoked, forged multi spoked wheels exclusive to this car. Michelin tires.

What car are you talking about here

the car coming up at christies, 073

You got any pics what it looks like now. I know its got an lm engine, what about HD kit?

It's the car that is pictured in the link on the first page of this thread. It is also the car pictured in the "Burgundy Pics" thread further down in the forum.

>8^)
ER

I thought thta car was #75

do u read the threads or do u just look at the pix? :banghead:

little of both, whatever so the burgundy car is 73 and thtas gonna be at christies. Thats all i need to know.

yes, that is correct

well we can't be absolutely sure until christies release info on the car, but 073 is a front runner.

i gurantee it is #073, my info is direct from Christies

Christies McLaren is #073 with certainty. The owners of #011 and #073 were brothers, but not the brothers that initially led the discussions to earlier conclude the car was #075.

I would suggest that #075 will never be modified in such a way as this car. I would also expect that some time in the future the buyer of #073 would likely return the car to its original configuration, perhaps with a different color than original, and perhaps with the "LM" spec engine still installed.

It is of course, up to the new owner, but I am finding that the Hi-Downforce kit is less appealing to existing and future owners.

won't it need it with all that power?

Mini,
The downforce kit is not for the top end of the car's capability. In fact, the downforce kit takes away quite a bit from the top speed. The problem is drag. Although providing a great deal of downforce, it comes at the expense of excessive drag. That drag keeps the car from attaining the far reaches of top speed that the McLaren is capable of. For all practical purposes, the F1 roadcar is the fastest of them all, but the additional power afforded to the LM and other cars so modified, will provide a quicker 0-60 and 0-100mph time. Although aerodynamics are important at 100mph, the forces involved are not such that the addition of the downforce kit does not dramatically affect the result.

The real reason behind the downforce kit is grip. On the track, speed is a biproduct of grip. The better the grip of a particular car, the faster it can execute corners. To attain higher levels of grip, tires and suspension can only do so much. The rest is left to downforce. The more downforce, the better the grip. The compromise with any track is that one wants to maximize traction, but not dramatically affect (ie: reduce) top speed. If a track is predominantly straight with few curves, you will want to minimize your downforce (therefore reducing drag and maintaining an aerodynamically efficient configuration). On a track with a higher amount of curves that are relatively tight and few or at least quite short straights, you must maximize downforce to improve corner grip. The additional drag of the additional downforce will not adversely affect the lap times. Lap times will likely be faster on such a track.

There is a unique car setup between the balance of drag vs. downforce (grip) for every track and every car.

It is theoretically possible that the higher horsepower motor in a standard F1 roadcar configuration could possibly (more than likely) go slightly faster than the official 241mph as posted with XP5. The added horsepower will overpower the drag forces at the higher echelons of speed. Sorry for the long post. Hope that clears it up.

Why do you think High downforce kits are becoming unpopular? Personally i think they really add something to the shape of the car.

does the downforce kit make a big different when going around a corner at like 60-80 mph?

This car was balanced with a 4mm Gurney Flap (see:http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/tech104gurney.htm)
and louvers were added to the front wings. Documented testing at Bruntingethorpe in May 2000 confirmed that these additions worked exceedingly well. As stated by the engineers: "The additional downforce enhances the existing levels of grip and stablility and provides a great feeling of confidence and security, particularly at high speed." The engine bears part number GTR LM 61121 6053 1648.
Chassis # SA9AB5AC4W1048073

Yes it would, but only slightly. In higher speed corners, when the aerodynamic effect is much greater,a car with the HD kit would be much faster than one without.

At normal cornering speeds, such as experienced on the street, the downforce kit will not provide a tangible benefit. It is purely there for looks, fashion. If an owner expects to push his car to the limit on the street, I would recommend he install a high downforce kit. Since that scenario is highly unlikely and very dangerous, the downforce kit is nearly useless on the street.

On the track however, it is critical. A McLaren without the downforce kit will not be remotely competitive and will likely be bouncing off the wall as the driver tries to keep up with the rest of the competition. The downforce kit will provide a noticeable benefit as low as 40mph, but the benefits are more and more noticeable the higher the speed. This is true only for cornering. At some point the drag of the kit will outweigh its benefit and will be a hinderance instead. In a straight you don't want heavy downforce.

The statement that Gerd included was very well stated. There is far more detail there than is mentioned, but the results are completely correct. A Gurney flap alone is not what makes a car balanced, it is only when it is used in combination with a properly designed and positioned rear wing element in combination with the whole aerodynamic package on the car. The Gurney flap has usefulness in many other locations on the car as well, but the most common is on the trailing edge of the rear wing (and the front wing in Formula 1). The Gurney flap makes the wing airfoil more efficient which translates to more downforce with little addional drag.

Some cars include a small triangular flap on the front corners of the car. They may or may not have a Gurney flap as well. Those small flaps provide two things. One: they do provide downforce for the front of the car. Two: and more importantly, they introduce a high energy vortex (a tightly rotating mass of air) that flows along the side of the car. The rotation of that air mass helps to draw air out from underneith the car further adding to the low pressure that already exists there as a result of underbody aerodynamics and diffusers. The low pressure is also downforce. The car is literally sucked to the ground. The vortex is also managed to deflect slightly away from the car the further back it gets. This helps to reduce the overall drag on the side of the car by forcing the incoming airflow away from the typically aerodynamically "dirty" sides.(in terms of drag not cleanliness)

A much deeper lesson in Aerodynamics.

such aerodynamic refinements have greater meaning on cars in Europe, especially Switzerland and Germany, then in the US with our 65 speed limit. 073 has spent it's "off time" at the McLaren factory but is Swiss registered and has been driven extensively on the Continent. I will be at the Nurburgring next week to see Porsche's latest. Alas, no McLarens.

"In the car one has the ability to listen to the stereo, the two-way radio Motorola communications system, the navigation satellite and/or converse with each person in the car with or without the helicopter-rated intercom system and Peltor headsets.
It is painted with a unique tangerine metallic color. Long-term protection from stone chips is provided by Armourfend, an ultra-thin protective film.
The interior is treimmed in "GT" specifications with magnolia alcantara headlining and magnolia Wilton carpets. The driver's seat is fitted with magnolia nubuck leather with beige alcantara inserts and the passenger seats are mirrored in beige alcantara and magnolia nubuck inserts. The dashboard is trimmed in black alcantara and black Wilton mats adorn the footwells."

where did you get that info from?

a source, i said that further up.

Today, i came across autosalon website and i realized another Mclaren F1 is on sale, this one is registered on Jan/01/94 as explained by them. So as my guess, this website is obviously updated recently and this one could be #003 in terms of Silver color as well as registered date. but i still suspect my consideration is right because its color is titan metallic. They say export price is 1.2million euro. Amazing...And as talked before, there is also another 1997 Mclaren F1 but when i tried to see details then back to the former one pics. so i think 97 Mclaren F1 might be sold. Is all stuff discussed before? if it's true, i will become a dumbass. Even though mentioned before, at least i am sure the chassis Nr was not.

Jan/04/94 Mclaren F1
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/McLaren/McLaren_F1_08980_0023_03_02_11.jpg

97 Mclaren F1
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/mclaren/McLaren_F1_08980_0027_03_02_01.jpg

http://www.autosalon-singen.de/Katalogfahrzeug_RecordView.cfm?StartRow=1&marke=McLaren&languageID=GB

these pictures are old :$

And if you go to the "new in stock" section there is no Mclaren F1 for sale ...

Yes, these photos are very old and I highly doubt AutoSalon Singen still has either of these cars in their possession and for sale.

I also don't understand why you'd bump a year-old thread to the top, especially this one, in order to post these photos....?

What's the tie in with the Christies McLaren? :confused:

>8^)
ER

Auto Singen have no mclaren at their showroom as of about 2 weeks ago

I know the picture isn't right!

www.autosalon-singen.de/Fahrzeuge_RecordView.cfm?PageNum=1&marke=McLaren&modell=&select=2&languageID=DE

I think they refer to this car :

http://www.mclarenf1.de/angebot01.htm

(the second one)

Hello,

someone will buy a special Mercedes at Autosalon Singen, I will ask he looks to the F1 :)

Ciao
Phil