Blow Off Valve required?

This may seam like a easy question, but, I recently purchased a TD04 Turbo from a 2003 WRX for a custom app. and i was wondering, do you NEED a BOV?

I planned to purchase one later, but if i need one to get this runnin' then i guess i'll have to. also, where in the plumbing does it go? lol, i bet you're glad i'm not putin the turbo on your car :cwm27:

Thanx much

Don't for one second take my word as a mechanic's... but, BOV as far as I know are needed when boost pressure runs too high at certain rpm, and BOVs keep the boost manageable, thus allowing thr turbos to run more often without the driver having to let off the gas in fear of blowing the manifold.

I'd say go for since they aren't too expensive and they sound cool, with a twin turbo setup, one is proably nessecary anyways.

Porsche, you're mixing up BOV and a wastegate. The wastegate is the one that keeps the boost "manageable", while the BOV releases the pressure from the intake before the manifold when the throttle is shut to prevent the air going backwards into the compressor.

SupaStealth TT, it all depends on the kinds of boost levels you'll be running. Can't hurt, though, I suggest, though, not venting into the atmosphere but recirculating the air due to possible driveability issues. Having said that, are you sure you are able to install that turbocharger on your own?

Hehe, thanks ales, i'm probably not goina be runnin that high of boost, i'm sure not above 10psi until i think i have it tuned right, lol, i'm about 80 percent sure of myself that i can do it. :bigthumb:

oh, yeah, my second question was overlooked, where does it go in the plumbing, the logical place to me would seem it would go before the turbo letting the gas go before it builds up too much pressure, but thats just my brain thinkin', lol. a diagram (advanced preferably, with vacuum lines 'n stuff) would be very appreciated of all this.

The tough part for me is goina be routing the exhaust, i'm sure i'll have to make a flange to the turbo and the exiting gasses could be a problem too, there isn't too much space with all the electricals by the throttle body (and throttle cables).

thanx much

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
Hehe, thanks ales, i'm probably not goina be runnin that high of boost, i'm sure not above 10psi until i think i have it tuned right, lol, i'm about 80 percent sure of myself that i can do it. :bigthumb:

oh, yeah, my second question was overlooked, where does it go in the plumbing, the logical place to me would seem it would go before the turbo letting the gas go before it builds up too much pressure, but thats just my brain thinkin', lol. a diagram (advanced preferably, with vacuum lines 'n stuff) would be very appreciated of all this.

The tough part for me is goina be routing the exhaust, i'm sure i'll have to make a flange to the turbo and the exiting gasses could be a problem too, there isn't too much space with all the electricals by the throttle body (and throttle cables).

thanx much
10 psi is a nuff to blow up most N/A cars. you better start with 5.
Do you know how to modify the waste gate to run lower boost? if not you should look into it.
The BOV need to go inbetween the turbo and throttle body, than recurculate back into the turbo to not confuse the air flow sensor and PCM. The vacume line goes after the throttle body (intake manifold)vac line.
Fuel managment is the most important step, what are you gonna do about that?
Any boost about 5 to a N/A car will need the ignition retarted to prevent deto, and high octane gas, and colder spark plugs.
What car do you plan on doing this to?
I think you need to do some more reading before you turbo any thing :sly:

Do you know a website on how to make the wastegate adjustable? i've heard a little about it, but not much.

I'm planning on puttin' this turbo on a 1999 Ford Taurus with the craptastic 3.0 Vulcan engine. I'm planning on getting a fuel pump off of a V-8 mustang (i still have to check with compatibility) and probably injectors from a stang too. I have Bosch Platinum Spark plugs. No ignition yet, i'm not sure what i should go with, i'm sure MSD. and I plan on getting a superchips chip for it.

Will the Airflow sensor work with a turbo, or would i have to get one from a diff engine?

What do i use to retard the engine?

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
Do you know a website on how to make the wastegate adjustable? i've heard a little about it, but not much.

I'm planning on puttin' this turbo on a 1999 Ford Taurus with the craptastic 3.0 Vulcan engine. I'm planning on getting a fuel pump off of a V-8 mustang (i still have to check with compatibility) and probably injectors from a stang too. I have Bosch Platinum Spark plugs. No ignition yet, i'm not sure what i should go with, i'm sure MSD. and I plan on getting a superchips chip for it.

Will the Airflow sensor work with a turbo, or would i have to get one from a diff engine?

What do i use to retard the engine?
Most Ford's share the same fuel pump, you will find the same pump on a 88 hp Escort than you will on a 200hp ford V8.
The normal operating fuel pressure is 32-40 psi, ( the pumps can push 80 psi) and 90% of fords use 19# injectors, again from a Escort down to a Mustang V8, the only time you'll see any thing larger is in a Factory Forced inducion or high out put motor, like a SVO, Cobra, 2.3 Turbo Coupe, supercharged T bird..ect.
But dont just think you can pop any injector in and it gonna work, you have to also match the impedance.
Yes the air flow sensor will work with boost, but you'll still need some kind of fuel managment.
If you have a return line fuel system you can use a FMU, but sine 98 ford like to go with non-return line systems, that get's spendy and coplex to make work, read up at focaljet.com and other shared vehical systems like that.
You wondering how can the same sized injector and fuel pump work in a car that makes twice the power, Escort vs. Mustang? The mustang has twice the cylenders and injectors there for twice the power out put.
You can either retard timing with a MSD DIS-4 or a custom programmed chip.
Keep on reading and researching.

well, i understand how the injectors could make more power with a V-8 compaired to an I-4, but the same fuel pump? anyways.. i just heard some people sayin' that the mustang injectors were bigger, thats where i got that. otherwise i was thinkin' of Supercoupe injectors either that or the 2.3 turbo injectors. Are you sayin' that I wouldn't need a fuel pump, to me that would seam to put a lot of strain on the stock one. I also heard that the FFV (flex fuel Vulcan) Engine has stock 24# injectors to support E-85 (ethonol 85%) fuel, but i imagine i wouldn't find that at any junkyard, lol, and would pay a hella lots at a dealer.

I suppose it would cost quite a bit for me to have a custom chip programmed, but i'll have to look into that, i pretty much have to get a chip and ignition, so i'll have to see. Is it really worth the money to get bigger wires, right now i have 8.0mm wires...

So, another question which is goina make ya think i'm a total idiot... the oil lines, i suppose there are no existing oil lines i can use huh?

Oh, and just one more, lol, you can rotate the housings on turbos correct?, i know on garrett's you can (at least on the t-3's that i've seen).

well, thats all for now.

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
well, i understand how the injectors could make more power with a V-8 compaired to an I-4, but the same fuel pump? anyways.. i just heard some people sayin' that the mustang injectors were bigger, thats where i got that. otherwise i was thinkin' of Supercoupe injectors either that or the 2.3 turbo injectors. Are you sayin' that I wouldn't need a fuel pump, to me that would seam to put a lot of strain on the stock one. I also heard that the FFV (flex fuel Vulcan) Engine has stock 24# injectors to support E-85 (ethonol 85%) fuel, but i imagine i wouldn't find that at any junkyard, lol, and would pay a hella lots at a dealer.

I suppose it would cost quite a bit for me to have a custom chip programmed, but i'll have to look into that, i pretty much have to get a chip and ignition, so i'll have to see. Is it really worth the money to get bigger wires, right now i have 8.0mm wires...

So, another question which is goina make ya think i'm a total idiot... the
oil lines, i suppose there are no existing oil lines i can use huh?

Oh, and just one more, lol, you can rotate the housings on turbos correct?, i know on garrett's you can (at least on the t-3's that i've seen).

well, thats all for now.
The larger the injectors the easyer it is on the fuel pump, thay have a larger opening so its easyer to push the fuel though. Most of Fords I4, V6 and V8 share a lot of fuel components, look at my Turbo Escort for exsample: The stock fuel pump is the same part # as one for a normal V8, same with the fuel pressure regulator, I'm using a Accel adjustable one for a 86-93 Mustang. (stock fuel pressure is 30-42 on 95% of fords).
My stock injecors are 19#, but I'm using 24# blue tops from a Cobra.
I'm also using a Carteh Adjuatable Fuel managment unit (FMU) to bring the fuel pressure up with boost. So it starts at 40 psi just before boost and ends at about 60psi of fuel pressure while at 6 psi of boost.
As long as you use the correct size injectors you dont need a stronger fuel pump UNLESS you stay with stock injectors and totaly relay on high fuel pressre to supply your fuel requirements.
Custom chips are about $200-300, you shouldnt need a MSD system if you get a custom chip that knows your boosting.
Your last worry should be plug wires.
Caution using 2.3 turbo injectors, there 3 ohm, if your PCM (stock injectors) are ment for high impedance 16 ohm injectors, you'll fry your PCM (computer).
Oil lines are just brake lines, just buy pre made stright brake lines with 1/4 ends on it and bend them how ever you need them.
you'll need a 2.3 TC oil line block distibitor to tap in to the oil sending unit pressure.
Yes you can rotate the compressor housing on most turbos, I did on mine.

Wow, this is probably the most i've ever gotten out of a thread at AF. Umm, where did you get your Cobra injectors, just outa curiosity? I think the regular chip from superchips for my car is like $265, did you go through the superchips people and get your's custom programed?

also where would be the best place to find the 2.3 TC oil line block distibitor, most of the junk yards in my area won't let me buy anything off of an engine without havin' to buy the whole thing.

thanx

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
Wow, this is probably the most i've ever gotten out of a thread at AF. Umm, where did you get your Cobra injectors, just outa curiosity? I think the regular chip from superchips for my car is like $265, did you go through the superchips people and get your's custom programed?

also where would be the best place to find the 2.3 TC oil line block distibitor, most of the junk yards in my area won't let me buy anything off of an engine without havin' to buy the whole thing.

thanx
Cobra injectors: split a set of 8 with another turbo escort friend from ebay, 8 was $150.
I'm not using a chip of any kind, computer is all stock. I'm keeping the boost low enuff and the gas octane high nuff to not need ignition retard.

Oil block: http://ubb.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
Go to the classified section and post. I got mine for $10.
(make sure your motor uses a standerd ford oil pressue sensor).

Before you go any further, find out if you have a return line fuel system or a non-return line fuel system.
follow the fuel lines to the fuel rail and see if there is a second line on the other end going back to the fuel tank.
You must find out what and how to take care of fuel managment.

ok, another question, Do you know if the TD04 Turbo off of the Suburu WRX would be the same TD04 as the ones off, say, a Mitsubishi 3000gt, or something in that line? Because the turbo I bought doesn't have the exhaust diverter that goes to the down pipe. Unless there is somewhere i could buy one that would be better than the cast one that comes stock.

I dont know??:confused:
But did you find out what kind of fuel system you have?

It doesn't matter what your boost pressure is, you should have a blow-off valve installed.

And 10psi isn't enough to make most engines "blow up".

nah, i didn't, i don't think this whole turbo thing is goina happen, i just got screwed by the guy i bought the turbo from on ebay, it says his email address doesn't exhist anymore, and i allready payed the bastard for it, so... Now i have to go through either paypal or ebay and figure out how to get my 245 bux back. Although i still want to do this turbo, i don't think that even if i did buy a different turbo, i wouldn't have enough time to install it and fabricate all this other stuff. Grrr :comprage1

Originally posted by 454Casull


And 10psi isn't enough to make most engines "blow up".
I dont know what N/A cars your thinking of, but most newer cars in general (Fords) were not made for boost. There pistons/rings are weak. and usally have around 9:1 C/R so 10 pounds can make a lot of power.
Even with proper fuel/ignition management 10 pounds is a lot. it would come close to doubling the stock hp.
I cant think of any Focus, Conture, Couger, Festiva's, Escorts, Touras or any newer fords that can take 10 psi with stock internals and hold together for long.
Can you list some Fords that can take 10 psi on stock internals? (and stay reliable)

First, 10 psi is getting pretty high for a stock engine, but as a rule of thumb, 7-12 psi is the practicle upper limit for a stock engine. The piston is the guy that often gets beat up when someone over does the boost, piston rings very rarely land themselves in trouble. The most often case of turbo related engine failure is due to detonation. Detonation is what, 9 times out of ten, beats up your pistons and kills your engine. The pressure spikes resulting from detonation can reach several thousand psi, and the temperatures up to 18,000*F, no pistons on earth can survive sustained detonation, although forged ones can survive a tiny bit longer than stock cast. Generally the only reason to upgrade pistons is due to RPM induced stress, rather than detonation stress, as no pistons can survive detonation for long. This is why stock pistons are generally acceptable for all street turbo applications, even high boost ones. Since the piston is what usually get damaged, and even the strongest ones cannot survive the usual culprit of engine failure, it is evident that stock pistons are generally acceptable. Altough careful tuning would be required, 10 psi is not impossible on a stock engine, but it would be playing with fire on a stock high-compression. As for ignition retard, stock equipped knock sensors will do the trick, if your car came with one. Knock sensors are the ideal form of ignition retard, and they do the igntion tuning themselves.

It's possible, but tricky.

Originally posted by jeffescortlx

I dont know what N/A cars your thinking of, but most newer cars in general (Fords) were not made for boost. There pistons/rings are weak. and usally have around 9:1 C/R so 10 pounds can make a lot of power.
Even with proper fuel/ignition management 10 pounds is a lot. it would come close to doubling the stock hp.
I cant think of any Focus, Conture, Couger, Festiva's, Escorts, Touras or any newer fords that can take 10 psi with stock internals and hold together for long.
Can you list some Fords that can take 10 psi on stock internals? (and stay reliable)


well on neco there was a guy seawolf...he was running 11-12 psi on a custom made turbo and a 35 shot of N2O....he had a 2.0 zetec cougar everything stock.....


he ran very reliable for several years till during some dyno runs to custom burn his ecu they did a mistake and advanced the timing to much and when they used the nitrous it detonated....very sad day....

but anyway with proper tuning it can be done...zetecs are quite good for turbo....of couse a proper reinforcing job is necesarry to get serious boost...

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
.... As for ignition retard, stock equipped knock sensors will do the trick, if your car came with one. Knock sensors are the ideal form of ignition retard, and they do the igntion tuning themselves....

I'm not so sure about relying on knock sensors, i've heard from a couple different soarces that they wouldn't be able to react soon enough from a turbo caused detonation.

Ok every one, I know there is a lot of stock internal motors that can with stand 10 psi, yes I agree. But is 10 psi on a N/A motor somthing a newbie should jump into? I would suggest 5-6 to start with.
And yes I agree the deto is the #1 killer, not the strangth of the components. It comes down to fuel managment, and a ignition system that can work with boost.
My car for exsample has no knock sensor, I'm boosting to 6psi with stock internals and igntion timing (93 octane fuel) with out a trace of deto. Work great.

This thing hauls with 6 psi I cant imagine what 10 will do.:22yikes:

Originally posted by jeffescortlx
Ok every one, I know there is a lot of stock internal motors that can with stand 10 psi, yes I agree. But is 10 psi on a N/A motor somthing a newbie should jump into? I would suggest 5-6 to start with.
And yes I agree the deto is the #1 killer, not the strangth of the components. It comes down to fuel managment, and a ignition system that can work with boost.
My car for exsample has no knock sensor, I'm boosting to 6psi with stock internals and igntion timing (93 octane fuel) with out a trace of deto. Work great.

This thing hauls with 6 psi I cant imagine what 10 will do.:22yikes:


yes actually i agree with you.....if you cannot afford to have your engine blow up on you its much better to be safe than sorry and stay conservative with a low boost and high safety margin

Originally posted by jeffescortlx

I dont know what N/A cars your thinking of, but most newer cars in general (Fords) were not made for boost. There pistons/rings are weak. and usally have around 9:1 C/R so 10 pounds can make a lot of power.
Even with proper fuel/ignition management 10 pounds is a lot. it would come close to doubling the stock hp.
I cant think of any Focus, Conture, Couger, Festiva's, Escorts, Touras or any newer fords that can take 10 psi with stock internals and hold together for long.
Can you list some Fords that can take 10 psi on stock internals? (and stay reliable)
Must I restrict myself to Fords? Wow.

Your right about a newbie not boosting too high. If your new to it, learn on low boost, that way the damage is less likely to occur.

About knock sensors, they are the best way, they react to detonation and retard the timing until it stops, the CPU will learn the ingition timing best suited to avoid detonation. Problem solved. The knock sensor is an active device and is far more effective than passive devices (manual retard) because it is constantly monitoring for detonation, so you don't have to.

As for reaction time, rap on the side of your block with a hammer while the engine is running (if it is knock sensor equipped) and see how fast the ignition is retarded, you will audibly hear the engine slow down...fast.

Originally posted by 454Casull

Must I restrict myself to Fords? Wow.
Yes, the original question is what is needed to turbo a "Ford" Tourtus.

Originally posted by jeffescortlx

Yes, the original question is what is needed to turbo a "Ford" Tourtus.
Indeed, he has a "Taurus". But YOU said:

10 psi is a nuff to blow up most N/A cars

Did you mean to say most "Ford" N/A cars?

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
Your right about a newbie not boosting too high. If your new to it, learn on low boost, that way the damage is less likely to occur.

About knock sensors, they are the best way, they react to detonation and retard the timing until it stops, the CPU will learn the ingition timing best suited to avoid detonation. Problem solved. The knock sensor is an active device and is far more effective than passive devices (manual retard) because it is constantly monitoring for detonation, so you don't have to.

As for reaction time, rap on the side of your block with a hammer while the engine is running (if it is knock sensor equipped) and see how fast the ignition is retarded, you will audibly hear the engine slow down...fast.


btw can you put aftermarket knock sensors on a formerly NA car?

if yes which one is the best?

Many NA cars come knock sensor equipped as well, but if you weren't lucky enough to get one, I read that a company called J & S Electronics was making them, and they were quite good. I don't know what happened to them or if they are still making them but it is worth a try. Incidently, a bad knock sensor can be worse than none at all as a bad one may read other noises as detonation and retard the timing to a point where the engine severely lacks power, a rock hitting the block, a failing hydraulic lifter, all of these could be interpreted as detonation by a bad knock sensor. Also, retarding the ignition raises exhaust temperature, which can be bad if the timing gets retarded unecessarily, so it would be a good idea if a knock sensor equipped turbo car was also equipped with an EGT gauge.

Well, i just got my turbo today ! :D i'll have to check to see if i have a closed fuel system or not now.

Well, i just checked, and my car uses a non - return fuel system, so yeah...

Tomorrow, i'm goina check with a guy to bend exhaust pipes for me, cause i don't have one, but i'm goina weld 'em, it'd get pretty expensive otherwise.

Oh well, rising rate FPR's are really inaccurate anyways. Get a decent piggyback FMU and get it set properly. The problem with rising rate FPR's is full boost at 4000RPM would make the FPR deliver as much extra fuel as at full boost and 8000RPM, when clearly the latter would need twice as much fuel. Rising rate FPR's only monitor boost pressure in order to meter fuel delivery, but in reality that is only one aspect of proper fuel correction.

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
Oh well, rising rate FPR's are really inaccurate anyways. Get a decent piggyback FMU and get it set properly. The problem with rising rate FPR's is full boost at 4000RPM would make the FPR deliver as much extra fuel as at full boost and 8000RPM, when clearly the latter would need twice as much fuel. Rising rate FPR's only monitor boost pressure in order to meter fuel delivery, but in reality that is only one aspect of proper fuel correction.
I'v been using a Cartech Adjuatable FMU for about 1200 miles, since the turbo was installed. It's has been doing a fine job, A nice smooth increase in fuel and keep's the A/F ratio steady though out RPM's.
In my mind, 6psi is 6psi, X amount boost needs X amount fuel. As the RPM' increase so does the amount the injectors fires. and injector pulse width.

:dunno:

I have used them before too, but never on high boost. After 8 or 9 psi or so I switch to piggyback or standalone. They are a mediocre method of fuel correction, and lack the precision of a piggyback or standalone. Your right though, they work fine on low boost.

what would you recomend for a piggyback FMU and/or standalone, and do they have to specialized to your type of car, cause if they do, then i'm pretty sure they probably wouldn't have one for mine.

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
what would you recomend for a piggyback FMU and/or standalone, and do they have to specialized to your type of car, cause if they do, then i'm pretty sure they probably wouldn't have one for mine.
Well I'm guessing since you have a non-return Ford set up, you will need somthing simular to what the other Ford non-returns use.
There's a lot of info out there on Zetec's, try focaljet.com in the FI section. Fuel managment is not gonna be cheep, or super easy to install like a FMU.

So, would say.. an Apexi Super Air Flow Controler be proper fuel management (less injectors and Air/Fuel Gauge)? if its not then i am totally confused on this subject

thanx much

Originally posted by SupaStealth TT
So, would say.. an Apexi Super Air Flow Controler be proper fuel management (less injectors and Air/Fuel Gauge)? if its not then i am totally confused on this subject

thanx much
I dont know how true this is, but I'v heard that the Focus computer will relearn around the AFC changes to make it back to stock settings.
You have to find out how much your computer has in common with a Focus.
But I do belive a custom programmed chip will help you out, with the use of bigger injectors.
Give SuperChips a call.

I haven't used the apexi unit, but supposedly it is quite good. There shouldn't be a problem with the computer relearning its stock fuel curves as the apexi unit intercepts the fuel signal after it leaves the computer before modifying it. But since I haven't used the apexi unit or a Focus I can't be 100% sure.

Call Apexi, they will be able to definitively inform you about compatability.