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ATTN: Viper V10


HighlyFanatic
07-18-2003, 04:12 AM
Hi, I think you have an interesting take on Vipers, i'd like your $0.02.

Heres the situation/problem?

1) i'd like a Viper that'll handle a sub 3.0 second 0-60 mph time, and the quarter-mile in the mid-tens; what mods would you recommend?
2) i still want to retain the Viper's "road-racing" essence, at the same time be able to attain a faster car with excellent traction, WITHOUT compromising handling, steering, etc.
3) what suspension, handling mods would i have to do to compensate for this, and make the car OUTPERFORM? (by outperform i mean speed, and handling, etc. over stock and with engine mods).

i know some people focus strictly on engine mods and the 1/4 mile, but i feel the Viper should be a balance of everything...


Whats the best way to accomplish this (and in what order); spending money smart...

Neutrino
07-18-2003, 07:56 AM
ok i'm not viper 10 but i hope you don't mind my opinion.....

you'll obviously need more more power.....~600 HP should put you in the 10's....you can there there by getting an NA tune up (agresive cam profiles, bigger throtle body, port and polishing the head, hone and extrude the exauts manifold) you can even go more extreme and get new lighweight pistons and rods balace the cranckshaft etc.....


the other way is to get Fi....cheap version nitrous shots....a 150 shot should do it provide you tune it properly.....downside of this is that its only avalable as much as the bottle is got N2O in it and you have to refill it

the permanent version of Fi that i recomend is turbo....true most old school guys say get a roots blower or something like it.....my reply is why do you need more instat power? you'll just spin out.....you already have tremendous torque to get out of the wholeshot you don't need more.....so a turbo lag will be good for you not to mention you can have at the push of a button differet boost settings....



as far as handling goes you shopuld be able to get into the 10's without compromising the track abilities......a n ajustable suspension is a must....this way you can set up an extremelly stiff rear whyle you drag race and just readjust it in a minute one you're done.....


use of proper tires to handle that much power cannot be overlooked either.....

if you would like more info just ask.....

Viper 10
07-19-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Neutrino
ok i'm not viper 10 but i hope you don't mind my opinion.....

you'll obviously need more more power.....~600 HP should put you in the 10's....you can there there by getting an NA tune up (agresive cam profiles, bigger throtle body, port and polishing the head, hone and extrude the exauts manifold) you can even go more extreme and get new lighweight pistons and rods balace the cranckshaft etc.....


the other way is to get Fi....cheap version nitrous shots....a 150 shot should do it provide you tune it properly.....downside of this is that its only avalable as much as the bottle is got N2O in it and you have to refill it

the permanent version of Fi that i recomend is turbo....true most old school guys say get a roots blower or something like it.....my reply is why do you need more instat power? you'll just spin out.....you already have tremendous torque to get out of the wholeshot you don't need more.....so a turbo lag will be good for you not to mention you can have at the push of a button differet boost settings....



as far as handling goes you shopuld be able to get into the 10's without compromising the track abilities......a n ajustable suspension is a must....this way you can set up an extremelly stiff rear whyle you drag race and just readjust it in a minute one you're done.....


use of proper tires to handle that much power cannot be overlooked either.....

if you would like more info just ask.....

Neutr:

I beg to differ with your views. First off, you can't have drag racing capabilities without compromising road racing characteristics... so you need to decide what is more important to you.

All of the engine stuff that you mentioned looks good on paper, but without any Viper tuning experience, they are just buzz words that you can attach to any car. All of these mosd will negatively affect your drivability and reliabilty.

NOS on a Viper is just plain stupid (as ANY car). It is the poor man's shortcut to performance. The downside is that you will not only cook your engine at the first sign of detonation, the engine blocks get thrashed and can't be rebuilt in many cases.

Turbochargers on Vipers is another pretty stupid thing to do because the only place that you can putthem is up against the floorpan. Obviously all of the turbocharged Vipers that you see advertised are not street cars used as a driver. They are garage queens that come out for dyno's and the occasional drag race.

So you have decided that 600 HP is the magic number to make 10's... then why is it that a 1,000 RWHP Viper that Treynor has can't break 10's with Doug Levin atthe wheel? You haven't a clue what you are talking about Neut and you read way too many magazines and listen to the wine and cheese ricers on the VCA BB.

Traction is the biggest problem with Snakes in a drag race. Weight transfer is not set up correctly on a Viper, because it is too stiff and set up for road racing (are you getting my drift yet?). The other common problem that is almost universal to Viper owners is that they don't know how to drive their cars. All that most care about is dyno numbers and trap speeds. The most obvious way to make good times on a Viper is to learn how to drive first... as in go to driving school. The next place to address is the chassis set up and then the drivetrain.

If you want a drag racing chassis set up, then there are plenty of professionals that can do this. The same goes for road racing set ups. People like John Archer can really do some good things to your pick up points and suspension set up for road racing. The better that the car is for the track, the less streetable that it becomes.

The next thing that you should look at for drag racing is swapping the rearend and transmission out. For drag racing, you absolutely need and adjustable 4 or 5-link rearend (preferably with quick-change gear capabilities). The Dana Super 44 is a weak link in the car when it comes to both drag and road racing. if the Viper tuners are that smart, then why can't they remedy the traction problems? It's because the only know engines.

In the transmission department you would have to go with a bullet proof transmission like a 3 or 4 speed Lenco. It is race proven and reliable (and virtually impossible to miss a shift). I know guys that run these on the street, but it is not made for street use.

Next you need to go to a suspension specialist that can set up your springs and shock ratings to allow good weight transfer in a linear manner (which means predictability and drivability).

Finally, after you have now reinforced the foundation of the car, you can go after the engine. The place where many tuners are lacking is in the area of ignittion and fuel delivery systems. If I were trying to set up a good reliable and drivable engine, I would go to someone like John Lingenfelter, who gets his performance out of boring and stroking an engine (and drastically upgrading fuel delivery and ignition). I am not a fan of forced induction Vipers because most of the tuners don't know much about intercooling. Notice that the Viper tuner have started intercooling their cars in the last year or two... what took them so long?

Unless you drop the compression on your engine at least a full point or more, you will run into big trouble trying to boost up your blower or turbochargers. If you have an inadequate fuel delivery system or intake set up, you will starve the back cylinders and smoke your engine. The reason why it is so difficult to turbocharge a street Viper is because there is only one place to really put a turbo on a Viper, and that is up under the floor pan. The problem with this is that the Viper floorpan is fiberglass... get my drift again? Hot turbochagers and fiberglass= fire. Why do you think the turbo tuners have either gotten out completely or don't want to tell you about cars that burn to the ground?

I'm tired now. I hope that this gives you a perspective check and something to think about.

Brad

Neutrino
07-19-2003, 08:17 AM
whoa....easy there......i never said i'm the ultimate viper source or anything.....that is why my advice was very general.....and i agree with you the viper is not a drag car its a track car....but he only wants to be in the 10's that is not a pure drag aplication....i've seen acr vipers run 11's stock....and you cannot tell me that an acr viper is bad on the track....imo you can get a viper to run a sec faster without compromising its handling.....


if you'll read with more atenion my post i started by saing "ok i'm not viper 10 but i hope you don't mind my opinion....." so i was just writing down my opinion....true i don't have as much knowlege about vipers as you and i never claimed that but i do know i thing or two about cars....

about the 600hp magical number...please read with more atention and notice the "~" before the number.....it means aproximative.....hence it was a "guesstimate"....that should tell you that i don't like to make unfounded claims so i included that sign....


about forced induction any car can have it if done properly.....maybe its hard to get a turbo on the viper....your probably right but maybe he can afford to do the modifications neccesarry to put one on.....John Carmack has a twin turbo on his F50....that is even more unheard of.....but hey he could afford it and he did it....


about nitrous if you would hang around other parts of this forum you'lll notice i'm not the biggest fan of it....but its a cheap way to get power....and if tuned properly it will not detonate....again accent on tuned properly....if you don't belive me ask self on the racing forum....he runs high 10's with N2O on his ls1.....


so i'm not sure why you think my post was the end of the world....it was very polite...maybe laked details since again i never claimed to be a viper expert but it was aimed more to see what exactly he wants to do and open a discussion....

so bottom line IMO you don't need to get a complete drag setup and compromise handling just to get a viper into the 10's beyound that i fully agree with you.....

btw what are the capabilities of a GTS-R in the 1/4.....

Viper 10
07-19-2003, 11:50 AM
Are you asking about the GTS-R street car or the Le Mans racer? If the Le Mans racer, I don't know that statistics.

If you are asking about the GT2 commemorative GTS, then you probably know that it is just an ACR with spoilers stuck on it. It has no engine mods outside of the K&N filters and smooth tubes.

I didn't mean to direct my response just to you, so nothing personal. If you are running a bone stock GTS at 11.5's (like Mike Brunton) on street tires, all that you need to break into 10's would be a set or wrinkle slicks... and a well prepped track.

To get to 11.5's on a bone stock Snake you have to be a pretty good driver.

Neutrino
07-19-2003, 01:47 PM
yeah that is all i meant....that just to get into the 10's you don't need that many mods and you won't ruin the handling....to go beyound that its a pitty since you'll ruin the handling and the viper was mean to go around tracks not down a strip.....


you want to drag race....get someting light and drop a 528 hemi in it....:biggrin:


and i was thinking about the le mans racer....was suposed to have ~700-800hp NA so he cound just do some of the same mods done to that car.....

v10_viper
07-21-2003, 11:12 PM
The GTS-R is around 2600 lbs, good luck getting your GTS to that weight. I dont think it'd be legal to have the carbon fiber body it had either. The most power the GTS-R's had was the 700 hp engine, which was different valve train, cam, and larger valves, it was also able to rev to 7000 rpm. (old thread about the GTS-R: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t82401.html) And who said anything about not being able to put the turbos anywhere else, SVS has come up with a great spot, although it can't be intercooled right there. Otherwise things have been explained pretty well.

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