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Zero paints help.


Jaychapel
05-17-2014, 02:53 PM
Hi everyone. Firstly I am a relative newcomer to the forum and have to say I am blown away by the level of skill, detail and realism that many of you here bring to your models. Now to my question regarding Zero Paints.
I had never used this paint before and studied the instructions carefully before applying to my model. I did a spoon test first which went well and followed up with Zero 2K clear and it looked superb. The main reason I wanted to try this paint was seeing the depth of shine on others models and that elusive (to me anyway) wet look. So I sprayed the paint on my model, it looked like an even flat finish which is what I expected. Then after waiting 45 mins I sprayed a tack coat of clear waited 5 mins and then gave it several wet coats until I achieved a high shine. But after the clear had dried it was very very glossy but with an orange peel effect. I wet sanded with Micromesh and polished with Maguires scratch x but the orange peel
was still there. This made me think that the orange peel was in the colour coat rather than the clear. Does anyone know where im going wrong ?
I sprayed at about 30 psi. Should I have leveled the colour coat with Micromesh. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

bradfordian
05-17-2014, 04:38 PM
You should micromesh your color coats.also spray them thin and study them layer after layer, you see an hair or bits pick them out with tweezer or if not micromesh that area till gone, repeat till you get say 4-5 good thin coats and the color is nice and then micromesh the job lot before applying clear.i use the premix zero clear and apply a light tac coat.then making sure the airbrush pot is full enough to do the part, I apply 1 coat moving round the part and applying evenly the clear till I see the wet coat finish and know the part is completely wet coated.leave it in a cupboard away from dust.

let it dry, if I see a blemish on the clear I micromesh it and when satisfied theres no orange peel or foreign bodies on it I give one final light coat, just to shine up the areas that go dull from micromesh but apply to all the part not just to a isolated area.let dry for couple days to week then use a shining agent/wax.i used novus 1 but might try other things in future, its just to give that last wipe over and a little glint.

oh amd I am a noob just like you so your not alone.
:)

Jaychapel
05-17-2014, 05:44 PM
Many Thanks Bradfordian, I will try it.
Also do you know if you can spray the Zero 2k clear over Tamiya TS sprays.
Many thanks again, Jay.

stevenoble
05-17-2014, 05:49 PM
Did you thin the colours some more, if not it can help to do that. Although the zero paints are pre thinned they work better with some additional thinner.

bradfordian
05-17-2014, 06:00 PM
Many Thanks Bradfordian, I will try it.
Also do you know if you can spray the Zero 2k clear over Tamiya TS sprays.
Many thanks again, Jay.

Based on spraying the premixed clear I used over some tamiya semi gloss black on a door window frame, no.you could see how it had dissolved the tamiya paint and it kinda washed it.
:)

John18d
05-17-2014, 07:01 PM
Jaychapel
I have airbrushed Zero 2K clear over Tamiya's TS synthetic lacquers with no problems whatsoever
Always apply a light tack coat (especially over decals) to the TS paint then wait 15 minutes flash time then follow with 2-3 wet flow coats to achieve the high gloss wet look.
I always give Zero 2K 15 minutes between coats and I have yet to need to "polish" or micromesh the clear after it has hardened
John

Jaychapel
05-17-2014, 07:26 PM
Thanks everyone for your help. I will try thinning the paint.
Also I will try the clear over Tamiya and see ho wit comes out.
Cheers, Jay.

Tibi Keke
05-18-2014, 02:28 AM
I sprayed Zero 2 K Clear over Tamiya TS paints with very good results. Somehow this clear sticks better on TS paints then other Automotive 2K Clears. If you don't want to clean the body of the modell and respray, try to send it with 2000 grit sand paper and just spray 2 K Clear again.

Kjenjak
05-19-2014, 11:02 AM
When I get heavy orange peel in my clear paint, I have to (wet)sand it away using 1200 grit. Even 3000 isn't enough then. So 1200 to get rid of all the little "hills" in the clear paint, 3000 to remove the "deep scratches" of the 1200 grit, some more higher grits if you do black or very dark colours, otherwise 3000 should be fine, then polish with some compound(s) of your choice. Make sure you have enough clear paint on your parts.
In my experience the most important step for a real high shine is the first sanding, to get an absolutely even surface without "hills" or "holes". Otherwise they will remain through every further step of your sanding/polishing.

John18d
05-19-2014, 12:12 PM
Jay
And to the rest of the thread followers
First of all Urethane paints are NOT meant to be "sanded" or "polished" between the basecoat and the clearcoat - this system is a basecoat/clearcoat system
Where people go wrong is they spray to thick of a basecoat trying to build layers and or to achieve a shine - you are NOT supposed to get a "shine" from the basecoat - all the shine "gloss" comes from the clearcoat.
Therefore the only way I can see a person getting "orange peel" in the basecoat is "to heavy of an application of the basecoat" from either too many coats - getting too close to the subject being sprayed - or maybe incorrect air pressure.
The goal with basecoat/clearcoat paint systems is to apply only enough paint to "color up" the subject then leave it to flash dry then apply the 2K clear - first a light tack coat then a flow coat then a wet coat each with the minimum flash time between so the VOCs can vent off and NOT create flaws in the superseding layers.
Maybe it's all my years of painting 1:1 objects (cars and motorcycles) with PPG's Deltron system that I find the Zero paints so easy to use.
as always practice makes perfect, but I believe that if the modeler understands the paint system then they have a better understanding of what it is they need to do to make the system work properly
Now understand - if you made flaws in the basecoat then obviously you will have to correct the flaws first then do some touch up with the basecoat, but the intent is that you shouldn't have to correct flaws in the first place.
I do recommend using a product for removing silicones and oils from the subject prior to being painted.
If anyone has a particular question they want to ask - PM me and I will try to help you as best I can
Hope this helps
John

Jaychapel
05-19-2014, 01:16 PM
Thanks John and Kjenjak for your replies. I am waiting for brake fluid so I can strip the model to try again. I will persevere with this paint system as I
have seen plenty of other peoples models painted with it on this site and it seems that when you do get it right it is well worth the effort. I have painted my car models till now almost exclusively with decanted Tamiya lacquers with what I thought were great results until I saw a model with Zero paint. Maybe its just me but I think the Zero paint system can give much better results. Thanks to everyone for your help, Jay.

stevenoble
05-19-2014, 06:22 PM
If you're getting heavy orange peel in the clear or the base coat then something is definitely wrong, in either the way you sprayed it or your set up, or a mixture of both. You can get the Zero, or most other automotive 2k clears, with an instant shine straight from the gun if you practice. If you're having to do loads of sanding and polishing to get a good shine because of orange peel then you're not applying it correctly and making yourself a lot of extra work for nothing. Practice your application and get the clear layers as good as can be to minimise any further work..

John18d
05-20-2014, 01:06 AM
If you're getting heavy orange peel in the clear or the base coat then something is definitely wrong, in either the way you sprayed it or your set up, or a mixture of both. You can get the Zero, or most other automotive 2k clears, with an instant shine straight from the gun if you practice. If you're having to do loads of sanding and polishing to get a good shine because of orange peel then you're not applying it correctly and making yourself a lot of extra work for nothing. Practice your application and get the clear layers as good as can be to minimise any further work..

I fully concur with what Steve says
I do not sand or polish either the basecoat or the 2K clearcoat
when applied properly the system yields excellent results
sanding out flaws are acceptable but if careful application is made the shouldn't be any.
These are some tips I use
First think thru the procedure of what you are going to do before you begin
Wear long sleeve cotton shirt and nitrile gloves
Wear a respirator mask (mandatory for 2K clear) and a head sock
Apply a silicone and grease remover with "cheese cloth" before painting and between coats only if you accidentally touch the subject with skin or contaminate the surface - do not use unless you had to sand for flaws etc - if all goes well you should be able to use the silicone/grease remover just once before you apply basecoat then apply your paint system
Use a water filter/regulator at the compressor or air tank and a small inline one before the airbrush.
Also I use a blow gun with water filters to blow off lint from my arms and hands and subject before I begin airbrushing so I can minimize little specs and hairs getting in my painted surface.
Remember to allow for the flash time between coats so that VOCs can escape
If a flaw occurs stop applying paint/clear - let it dry sufficiently and then make repairs before you continue - applying more paint/clear on top of a flaw just exaggerates the flaw
Most of the forum knows all this so understand this is for the people new to using urethane paint systems
Hope this helps
John

stevenoble
05-20-2014, 06:09 AM
Most of the time the orange peel texture is because the clear is drying too quickly and it doesn't flow out correctly on the surface. That's why you get the little hills/craters, because it's dried before the clear coat has fused together. I found out recently from a guy at my local paint suppliers that he has three types of thinner, fast, medium and slow, for differing temperatures. If it's a really hot day when I paint the clear I'll use the slow thinner. It retards the drying time in the hot conditions giving the clear more time to level. On cold days I'll use the fast thinner as I don't need the extra time as the clear will dry slower anyway because of the cold temperature. So the fast thinner actually speeds things up a little. For everything else I use the medium thinner, just a general thinner for when conditions are normal. It's amazing how sometimes just using the right thinner for the conditions can have an effect on the finished piece. It could be the difference between orange peel or a perfect shine..

John18d
05-20-2014, 03:15 PM
Most of the time the orange peel texture is because the clear is drying too quickly and it doesn't flow out correctly on the surface. That's why you get the little hills/craters, because it's dried before the clear coat has fused together. I found out recently from a guy at my local paint suppliers that he has three types of thinner, fast, medium and slow, for differing temperatures. If it's a really hot day when I paint the clear I'll use the slow thinner. It retards the drying time in the hot conditions giving the clear more time to level. On cold days I'll use the fast thinner as I don't need the extra time as the clear will dry slower anyway because of the cold temperature. So the fast thinner actually speeds things up a little. For everything else I use the medium thinner, just a general thinner for when conditions are normal. It's amazing how sometimes just using the right thinner for the conditions can have an effect on the finished piece. It could be the difference between orange peel or a perfect shine..

Steve you are correct about different temperatures for the "reducer" aka thinner - there is also available "retarder" and "accelerator" so for example if you bought the medium temp reducer and had accelerator then you could speed up the drying time if it was cool - and then retarder so you could slow down the drying time for when it's hot.
I'm not sure what "temp" the reducer is that Zero paint uses in their "thinner" because it does not state it. I'm presuming they are distributing a "medium" temp reducer - so that it gives the best performance all around.
Also another tip - for those that have 2K clear "hardner" - keep it in the refrigerator so that it does not harden while it is sitting on the shelf
Here in Arizona - if you leave it out - it will harden in it's container because of the warm ambient temperature. Remember the Hardener contains basically "superglue" aka CA zap etc.
John

BVC500
05-20-2014, 05:17 PM
All very usual tips guys, thanks! I'm still in the learning stages with 2k clear. I too get orange peel, and then have to polish out, which as everyone knows, is not fun with 2k clear. BUT, my techniques are getting better, and orange peel has decreased (but not specs of dirt...grrrrrrrrr).

John18d
05-20-2014, 05:30 PM
All very usual tips guys, thanks! I'm still in the learning stages with 2k clear. I too get orange peel, and then have to polish out, which as everyone knows, is not fun with 2k clear. BUT, my techniques are getting better, and orange peel has decreased (but not specs of dirt...grrrrrrrrr).

BVC500 - have you tried my tips - about - long sleeved cotton shirt - nitrile gloves - head sock and masK?? also use a low pressure blow gun with moisture taps to blow off yourself and the object being painted before you start - also I have a paint booth with extractor fan - that helps too - also blow yourself off between coats because particles of paint and clear will land on your arms and hands and just asking to end up in your finish to produce flaws -
John

flashman1957
05-20-2014, 05:39 PM
Most of the time the orange peel texture is because the clear is drying too quickly and it doesn't flow out correctly on the surface. That's why you get the little hills/craters, because it's dried before the clear coat has fused together. I found out recently from a guy at my local paint suppliers that he has three types of thinner, fast, medium and slow, for differing temperatures. If it's a really hot day when I paint the clear I'll use the slow thinner. It retards the drying time in the hot conditions giving the clear more time to level. On cold days I'll use the fast thinner as I don't need the extra time as the clear will dry slower anyway because of the cold temperature. So the fast thinner actually speeds things up a little. For everything else I use the medium thinner, just a general thinner for when conditions are normal. It's amazing how sometimes just using the right thinner for the conditions can have an effect on the finished piece. It could be the difference between orange peel or a perfect shine..

Steve, that's great info for those like me that have never tried 2K clear but want to.

Would you be able to give a rough air temperature range for when the fast, medium, and slow thinners would be used? Centigrade or Fahrenheit whichever is easier for you (we can convert if needed), and I do realize that it would only be a rough guide as correct thinner may depend on other factors like humidity. That would be very useful!

Thanks in advance,
Cameron

John18d
05-20-2014, 05:51 PM
Steve, that's great info for those like me that have never tried 2K clear but want to.

Would you be able to give a rough air temperature range for when the fast, medium, and slow thinners would be used? Centigrade or Fahrenheit whichever is easier for you (we can convert if needed), and I do realize that it would only be a rough guide as correct thinner may depend on other factors like humidity. That would be very useful!

Thanks in advance,
Cameron

Cameron - I'm not sure about the reducers that Steve is talking about - but PPG has cold (65-75) degrees Fahrenheit - medium (75-85) degrees Fahrenheit and hot (85-95) degrees Fahrenheit - they also have retarder and accelerator - I've personally painted using the hot (85-95) with retarder and sprayed in 110 degree ambient air temperature in Arizona summers with no ill effects.
PPG system I'm referring to is their Deltron line - it's from the late 80's so they will have never systems, but I prefer the Deltron system - works like Zero paints
Speaking of Zero paints - I received some from Spot Model in Spain - arrived shipped in 10 days - and they give the EU VAT discount for buyers not from the EU - like that here in the USA - so you can save a little - their customer service is good. So anyone looking for Zero paints outside of the UK - give them a try
John

John18d
05-20-2014, 06:05 PM
Cameron - I've even mixed two different "reducers" thinners - like medium and fast together to sort of customize for a give ambient temp
Also if you do give 2K a try make sure you have a proper industrial mask - you can get one from Harbor Freight for around $20 - 2K clear is very deadly on the lungs - also you want good ventilation if you spray it
I'm not sure how Humid it is where you live - we don't have much here unless it's raining which is like 12 days a year.
John

flashman1957
05-20-2014, 06:44 PM
Thanks John. That's exactly what I was hoping for. And good to know that there is some latitude in the temp ranges. I'm guessing the best thing is to get some and experiment (and practice)

It is often humid here in Minnesota, plus my workbench and spray area are in the basement, so it tends to be cooler where I paint. I do have a decent 3M two-cartridge respirator that I got from Menards.

I appreciate the advice!

Cameron

John18d
05-20-2014, 08:14 PM
Anytime Cameron - glad to hear you have a good respirator - to many people don't use anything when they spray 2K and they don't realize the active hardening agent is basically superglue "cyanoacrylate" -
yeah as for the reducers I think you can get them in 1qt (946ml) cans - it's not cheap though. But it's cheaper than Hiroboy's Zero "thinner" in the long run.
There's another thing then if you have a lot of humidity there - it is "fisheye" remover -
it helps stop little water bubbles and silicone substrates from contaminating the finish - jut get a small amount because 1 drop per airbrush cup of ready to shoot 2k clear is all you need. Zero paints has some but you can use any brand.
John

Jaychapel
07-14-2014, 07:43 PM
Hi I figured out the problem was with the clearcoat.
I added more thinner to the mix and finally it came out near perfect. There was no orange peel and it didn't need compound or polish. I am now spraying with a ratio of 5-3-3 clear, hardener, thinner. Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Jay.

John18d
07-16-2014, 04:57 AM
Hi I figured out the problem was with the clearcoat.
I added more thinner to the mix and finally it came out near perfect. There was no orange peel and it didn't need compound or polish. I am now spraying with a ratio of 5-3-3 clear, hardener, thinner. Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Jay.



Jay - be careful when you are exceeding the 2:1 ratio on the 2K clear and the catalyzer (Hardener)

It can lead to a brittle or cracked "checkered" finish

just so you are aware -

John

Jaychapel
07-16-2014, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the advice John. I will mix 5-2.5-3 or do you think
5-2.5-2.5 would be better. Cheers , Jay.

John18d
07-16-2014, 09:46 AM
Jay

When I mix Zero 2K clear I mix it 100:50:75 or 4:2:3 Clear - Catalyzer - Reducer

Catalyzer = Hardener / Reducer = Thinner

and I shoot it through a 0.8 needle and jet in an an Iwata trigger style dual action airbrush - this allows for separate spray pattern settings and full pull spraying for a nice even smooth flow coat - this ensures even amount of clear over the subject sprayed.

I apply 1 light tack coat over decals then a wet coat the before that has dried a flow coat to achieve that smooth high gloss look.

look back in the thread if you haven't read it all and see my tips for minimizing contamination and specs of dust and dirt in the finish.

Hope this helps
John

Jaychapel
07-16-2014, 06:07 PM
Thanks for that John.

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