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internal engine grime; is there a solution?


rcweston
05-02-2014, 10:27 AM
I just finished changing a timing chain/water pump cover gasket on the front of a 3.1 . With the cover off I could see that a thick grime, almost a grease like material, had accumulated on everything inside the engine. The engine walls, the gears, even the sides of the timing chain. It appeared that everything that didn't have something moving against it was coated. It didn't run off and yet it wasn't hard. But it was very black and gooey.
Sticking my finger in the oil access hole reveled some of the same.

A couple of questions;
1 Can this be cleaned up with some type of internal engine cleaner as the engine runs?
2 Should this be cleaned up or is it better to leave it alone?
3 Will such a cleaner cause problems with this material going through the engine into the smaller holes that could get clogged and cause more damage than a cleaning provides benefits?

I,m about to change the oil in the car but think I'll hold off until some one with experience can add to these question.
Thanks Rex

Crvett69
05-02-2014, 10:40 AM
you can buy engine flush to run through the engine just before you change the oil but depending on how much gunk it knocks loose you may need to pull the oil pan off to clean off the pickup screen. if you do pull pan off it would be a good time to get it hot tanked or otherwise cleaned off

rcweston
05-02-2014, 06:19 PM
you can buy engine flush to run through the engine just before you change the oil but depending on how much gunk it knocks loose you may need to pull the oil pan off to clean off the pickup screen. if you do pull pan off it would be a good time to get it hot tanked or otherwise cleaned off

Thanks for the info. What type of cleaner do you recommend? As I have looked on the internet, I find all kinds of products and claims for their superiority and then find others that tell of disasters after the cleaning? Someone that has some actual unbiased knowledge of products that have worked for them would be helpful.
Thanks Rex

Blue Bowtie
05-03-2014, 08:11 AM
Try using a different engine oil. PAO synthetics (Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc.) can help clean up varnish and sludge with regular use, regular changes, and good filters. Many oils have additives which can react with moisture, heat, and fuels to precipitate solids and form sludge and varnish. Regular changes can clean much of that up.

Using an engine flush can help, but I am wary of that when an engine has heavy sludge accumulations. If large pieces of sludge are broken loose it can have unintended and serious consequences.

Crvett69
05-03-2014, 11:01 AM
last one i flushed i cleaned as much sludge by hand from top of head by hand with a screwdriver and paper towels then used some rislone engine flush ad followed directions on can. the oil came out really black but not chunky and after about 1000 miles oil is still fairly clean

Schurkey
05-03-2014, 11:57 AM
FIX THE PCV SYSTEM.

Unless this is an unusually neglected engine, the PCV should largely prevent the buildup of sludge.

maxwedge
05-03-2014, 02:57 PM
Issue here how did it get this way in a modern engine with normal maintenance, and as a result what is the overall condition of the engine.

rcweston
05-03-2014, 11:55 PM
This all started with a water leak from the rear side of the engine block as it enters the timing chain cover/ water pump housing. It had leaked very slightly and inconsistently for almost a month with a small puddle of antifreeze on the floor now and then. No indications other than the frame of the car of wetness. Previously, for a few months now, I had just been loosing water over a period of time, not knowing were it was going.
As it leaked out of the engine through the deteriorated cover gasket, the gasket also slightly failed to the next bolt hole that opened a path right into the engine. I have no idea how long water and antifreeze had been entering the engine block, but I suspect it could have been as much as 6 months. It was only last week that the gasket failed enough to find were the water was coming from as it now was a steam of water running off the engine.
I suspect this sludge had plenty of time to form in those months, but there were no indications at oil change times. Nothing unusual on the oil cap or in the valve cover that could be seen, everything seemed fine; but of course it wasn't. Even when I drained the oil to replace the gasket last week, all looked normal. (the engine was hot)
With the failed gasket last week, lots of water was now being lost, about 1 gallon every 15 minuets. It was probably this huge loss that changed the oil to a thick sustance for what was to follow.
Now here is the real tragedy. As the timing cover job was finished and everything put back together with antifreeze and oil, the engine started right up but the oil light didn't go off. A little rev took it off but it cam right back on. Then I heard the engine start to get tight and it was shut down.
I had planed on getting info on how to clean this internal mess up from this forum, but of course this happened before any cleaning could have been done with an additive.
I dumped the oil and it came out lumpy, then pulled the filter and it was completely plugged chuck full of this thick goo.
I didn't want to start it again fearing that the oil galleys were plugged also, and a new oil filter was empty of any oil since the engine hadn't been run to fill it. It would take precious time to get the pressure up with an empty filter. Time without oil that I knew the bearings couldn't withstand.
I took out the oil pressure sensor and made some piping connections to a pressurized tank, put some diesel oil fuel in the tank and injected it into the now empty engine. Then added more oil. My intent was to push some very light lubricant through any blockage into the bearings that previously sounded as if they might have been badly hurt from the lack of oil pressure. Also to fill the new oil filter so the time it took to get back up to pressure at the start of the engine would be minimized.
sounds simple enough but it took most of the day.
With every thing back together, I tried a quick tap of the starter. The engine spun freely then I tried to start it and it jumped right to life and the oil pressure light extinguished within a second.
I've since flushed it twice and each filter is without any goo or clumps, but still dark on the first flush but getting lighter after the second. The oil is thin with the addition of the cleaner. Marvel mystery oil, then sea foam.
This third time, I'm going to drive it a little, checking the oil often, then dump it after a few miles and a hotter engine.
I feel blessed to have gotten lubrication back in the right spots without any further damage. I guess time will tell what has really happened. But I see no sings of anything different at this point minus the water puddle under the car.
This must seem very unusual and go against any instruction, but it was either get it working or give it up for junk. I didn't feel it was worth the time nor the effort and expense to put a lot back in this old and much used car.
The compression still tests good, it runs and idles smoothly and sounds just as it did before any of this took place.
Wish me the best. and thanks for everyone's input.
Rex

rcweston
11-03-2014, 11:45 AM
Since this timing chain cover gasket failure, I've had 2 additional water leaks into the engine. the second was the lower intake manifold gasket and the third was the head gasket, all repaired now.
Being very skeptical of the worthiness of this engine, I took it very easy and changed the oil a lot. But this black mayonnaise like goo persisted.
As I worked on the other two leaks, I would clean out as much as possible, but could not get the internal parts of the block cleaned. So I tried a couple of engine flushes. First the Marvel oil, Seemed like diesel or kerosene to me, and didn't do much. Next I tried Sea foam. Couldn't tell that it did anything at all. Lastly i tried a product called Kreen made by kanolabs. I had to purchase it on line. within about 1 minute of running the engine, I could see the oil getting cleaner, from dark to lighter. This seemed so wrong to me, I would think that if it cleaned off the black goo, that it would get darker. I called the company, they said to run it a while and drain it, then do it again.
The drained oil seemed pretty good, but the filter had captured a lot. I have done it twice now and just finished a 300 mile excursion and the oil looks pristine. I can't see any build up with a snake camera in the rocker arm cover area, in fact it has taken the hard black deposits that didn't wipe off with a cloth, off of all the lifters, it looks great in their. I hope the rest of the engine looks that good!
It was a little expensive, but if it cleaned it up, it was well worth it.
Rex

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