Hard time starting

Hi everyone,

Our 1997 Lumina with a 3.1 liter engine and about 190,000KMS is having difficulty starting in the morning.

I have changed the spark plugs, plug wires, checked the connections to the battery and put dielectric grease on them. None of that seemed to make much of a difference. The key has to be held for about 5-7 seconds and it coughs to life and then runs rough for about another 5 seconds and the interior lights are dim during this too. After that it comes to life and runs great.

Is it possible for starters to start to weaken? I have never had a starter do that, they have either worked or not. Besides that, I don't know what else could be the problem.

I have heard that these engines can have condensation issues when the temperature straddles the freezing mark, which it has been the last few weeks. Maybe it just needs to get below zero and stay there?

Anyway, thanks for any tips anyone might have on this issue.

Does it crank at nearly the usual speed, but not RUN properly, or does it crank slowly and not run properly?

It does seem to crank properly, it just seems to struggle to actually start. Once it starts and gets past that 5-7 second rough running it sounds and runs great. Maybe the starter isn't quite turning fast or powerfully enough which makes the car difficult to start?

I assume that if it was something ignition related, the car would run rough always, not just at very initial start up.

I suppose now that the plugs and plug wires are done, if this continues I can always just bite the bullet and change the battery, and if needed the starter. I would just hate to be changing all these things is there is something else that may be the problem.

I am going to go disconnect the starter this weekend and make sure the connections are nice and clean, maybe a bad ground on the starter could be the problem?

It does seem to crank properly, it just seems to struggle to actually start. Once it starts and gets past that 5-7 second rough running it sounds and runs great. Maybe the starter isn't quite turning fast or powerfully enough which makes the car difficult to start?

I assume that if it was something ignition related, the car would run rough always, not just at very initial start up.

I suppose now that the plugs and plug wires are done, if this continues I can always just bite the bullet and change the battery, and if needed the starter. I would just hate to be changing all these things is there is something else that may be the problem.

I am going to go disconnect the starter this weekend and make sure the connections are nice and clean, maybe a bad ground on the starter could be the problem?
If it cranks good, it's almost certainly NOT the battery or the starter motor.

You've already taken care of ignition system; at least part of it.

WHAT IS THE FUEL PRESSURE? When did you last change the fuel filter? That, and the possibility of injector leakage are the things that come immediately to mind.

Excuse me for jumping in , You say lights are dim for a bit after you get it started? more then a second or too? you may want to have your alt checked (regulator checked )I believe its internal on that one ,a diode may be bad causing a drain on ignition source(going to ground )witch would or may cause such a problem , starving coil from power ,How is it on warm start up ? do things act the same way ? The dimming of lights is normal during cranking as most power is put towards the starter, Its after you let the key go im asking about ..........just trying to help

Hi,

It only seems to be a problem in colder temperatures. I don't drive the car regularly but my girlfriend never complained about it in the warm weather.

She actually said it stalled twice this morning and was afraid to try again. I ran out and got it going, it just seems like the starter needs to be held a few extra seconds while it is attempting to fire up. A little tiny bit of gas during the struggling helps too.

Maybe its just old and that's just going to be the way it is. I will check the connections to the alternator and starter this weekend, after that I don't know what else can be done other than buying new parts.

Thanks for your guys help with this.

Hi,

It only seems to be a problem in colder temperatures. I don't drive the car regularly but my girlfriend never complained about it in the warm weather.

She actually said it stalled twice this morning and was afraid to try again. I ran out and got it going, it just seems like the starter needs to be held a few extra seconds while it is attempting to fire up. A little tiny bit of gas during the struggling helps too.

Maybe its just old and that's just going to be the way it is. I will check the connections to the alternator and starter this weekend, after that I don't know what else can be done other than buying new parts.

Thanks for your guys help with this.

I have a 1998 Monte Carlo with the 3.1. When I first bought it it had a similar issue. I kinda referred to as "it did not start with conviction". It sorta had to have the starter assist it until it cleared it's throat. Well it turned out to be fouled up injectors. When you start your car, it should hit in less than a complete revolution and bang to 1200 RPMs or so.

I have a 1998 Monte Carlo with the 3.1. When I first bought it it had a similar issue. I kinda referred to as "it did not start with conviction". It sorta had to have the starter assist it until it cleared it's throat. Well it turned out to be fouled up injectors. When you start your car, it should hit in less than a complete revolution and bang to 1200 RPMs or so.

Thank you! That is exactly the same issue, I just couldn't think of the right way to word it. I will have a look at the injectors this weekend as you and the above poster suggested it may be. I suppose if it is this big of a problem that one of those injector cleaner fluids you put in the gas tank will not do much, they likely need to be changed right? Hopefully that is not too hard to do. I suppose I will change the filter while I am at it too.

So after you changed your injectors I assume that the issue was fixed?

Thanks everyone.

If you decide to replace the injectors and you have time to wait. Numerous sites out there that will clean and test all your injectors. I had 4 done for around $50 to include shipping. I have also seen guys do a "home built" injector cleaner. Search around.

Alright, I will do that. At the least I will probably just add whatever seems to be the most reccomended injector cleaner and hope for the best, it can't make them any worse.... or so I hope.

I will probably just add whatever seems to be the most reccomended injector cleaner
Chevron Techron; or the same thing in a GM bottle sold as AC-Delco 10-3000 (12353058)

Chevron Techron; or the same thing in a GM bottle sold as AC-Delco 10-3000 (12353058)

It looks like I jumped the gun on this one a bit. I already went and bought Formula 1 Extra Strength fuel injector cleaner based on reviews. Hopefully we notice some difference in the coming weeks, if not I may go find the type you are referring to and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the suggestion.

Of course, adequate fuel pressure is necessary, even with clean or new injectors. One quick check with a pressure gauge will prove that out.

That is one other part that I came across while looking into the injectors is a fuel pressure regulator valve. It looks like you have to take the plenum off to get to the injectors and the valve is right there. If it comes to having to change the injectors, I will definitely change that too.

Yeah, once I determined that my injectors were fouled up, I did some research and it turns out that injector cleaners that you add to the gas do good to keep your injectors clean but don't really fix them when they've gotten real bad. So I went to the junk yard and found 6 injectors with the correct part number off another vehicle and cleaned those in my garage ahead of time. The I opened up the engine, swapped them out and put it back together in about an hour and a half. The other option is to get one of those injector cleaners that you attach to your fuel rail. That way your are cleaning them the right way without even taking your engine apart.

I didn't know there was a type of cleaner that you attached to the fuel rail. Where can you buy this kind? That may be an option.

I watched some videos about how to change them, it doesn't look too bad. If the cleaner in the tank doesn't help at all, I will probably do what you did. After you get them from the junkyard, what did you use to clean them up?

I didn't know there was a type of cleaner that you attached to the fuel rail. Where can you buy this kind? That may be an option.

I watched some videos about how to change them, it doesn't look too bad. If the cleaner in the tank doesn't help at all, I will probably do what you did. After you get them from the junkyard, what did you use to clean them up?
I took a piece of rubber hose (about 1.5 feet long) that fit on the input side of the injector, clamped it on and poured acetone into the hose. Then I clamped an air chuck on the other end of the hose. I set my air compressor to 30 PSI and connected it to the air chuck. Then I used my car charger with a couple of clip leads and tapped them together to open and close the injector until the acetone was gone. Did each one that way. Cleaned them right up. For the cleaner you hook up to the rail, go to amazon.com and search for "OTC 7448 Fuel Injection Cleaner". You can watch it in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGI9N_yWd0

I took a piece of rubber hose (about 1.5 feet long) that fit on the input side of the injector, clamped it on and poured acetone into the hose. Then I clamped an air chuck on the other end of the hose. I set my air compressor to 30 PSI and connected it to the air chuck. Then I used my car charger with a couple of clip leads and tapped them together to open and close the injector until the acetone was gone. Did each one that way. Cleaned them right up. For the cleaner you hook up to the rail, go to amazon.com and search for "OTC 7448 Fuel Injection Cleaner". You can watch it in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGI9N_yWd0
The 7448 is pretty useless unless you've got the OTC fuel injection pressure testing set. The 7448 doesn't connect to the fuel rail--it connects to the fuel pressure testing kit.

Well I don't know that it is useless. I was thinking that, since fuel rails from different manufacturers have different fittings, you would have to get an adapter of some sort that fits your vehicle. My idea was to give the thread starter an idea of the concept of attaching something to the fuel rail and not the actual solution. I don't have one of these injector cleaners, but if I did, I would get an adapter to fit my vehicle(s).

Hello again everyone. I chickened out with the Seafoam cleaner that I bought after reading that if there is any type of build up in you tank it may loosen it and cause you a whole new set of issues. We made it through the winter, but yesterday I got the call from my girlfriend that the car started running rough and then stalled. It cranked over nice and fast and obviously temperature wasn't an issue since it was running all day (and in a heated underground parking lot). It came close, but just would come to life.

I opened the throttle body wide open a few times and didn't smell any gas, so that lead me to get in and turn the key listening for the fuel pump, which I didn't hear. We left it there over night to cool down and went back today expecting to have to tow it, but surprisingly it started. Home was only a few minutes away, so off I went, and it is now home.

So I guess my question is, has anyone seen a fuel pump slowly deteriorate over time? I have only had them fail and stay broken. I have read that if there is a leak of some type on the pump or lines inside the tank, it will not leak gas, but result in low fuel pressure which would explain my issues. I planed on changing the fuel filter while I was changing the pump, but now I am wondering if the pump may be alright. I would hate to go through all the trouble of changing the pump if that isn't the issue. It would be nice if a fuel filter was the problem, but I doubt I would be that lucky.

What do you guys think, any one had a similar issue before? I am actually thinking now I should throw the Seafoam in there and see what happens. If I am already going to have to pull the tank off, I really have nothing to loose right?

Put a fuel pressure tester on the vehicle and learn something worthwhile. At least that would tell you if the pressure was OK or not. If not, the pump could be bad, or the electrical supply to the pump could be defective.

Yeah, that is probably the best way to go I guess. I will have to buy one, but I assume NAPA or Canadian Tire or something should have them. I guess I should change the filter first in case it is plugged up and give a low reading. Thanks.

Yeah, that is probably the best way to go I guess. I will have to buy one, but I assume NAPA or Canadian Tire or something should have them. I guess I should change the filter first in case it is plugged up and give a low reading. Thanks.
Here in the States, auto parts stores rent or loan fuel pressure testers and other automotive tools. We might have to buy the tool, and then get a refund when the tool is returned.

Yeah, that is probably the best way to go I guess. I will have to buy one, but I assume NAPA or Canadian Tire or something should have them. I guess I should change the filter first in case it is plugged up and give a low reading. Thanks.
It would be better to test the fuel pressure before you change the filter. If it is low, change the filter and see if it improves. If you change it first, you never will know if it was a problem.

I watched a great youtube video on how to check the fuel pressure. The procedure basically showed to turn the key on, and the pressure should be somewhere between 40-50PSI. Then wait about 2 minutes. The pressure should be maintained, if it drops quick, probably fuel pump, if it drops slow, probably injectors or regulator. If all that goes well, start the car. It should then maintain a steady pressure slightly less than before starting. Does that procedure sound about right?

I have tested the fuel pressure based on the above instructions, before changing the filter as suggested. After turning the car on, it only went to about 11PSI. It did maintain that, but probably because it was so low to begin with. I then started the car. It bounced back and fourth between about 17-20PSI for a minute, then went to about 20-21PSI (not steady, still kind of bouncing around).

Based on the above, as much as I don't want it to be, I believe it is the fuel pump. I will change the filter first in case that somehow is that plugged that it is causing the super low pressure, but I think that is just wishful thinking on my part. I would change the regulator first too, but a new one is around $100. I guess I could take a trip across the city to the wrecker and get a cheap one if you guys think that could be the issue.

Any chance that a bad regulator could result in the above situation? I basically just wonder if anyone has a different opinion about this before I pull the tank off and buy a new pump. Thanks everyone for all the helpful hints on my problem.

What everyone calls a "fuel pump" is in fact an electric motor and fuel pump assembly.

If the electric motor isn't getting proper amperage and voltage, the pump will not work properly.

There is no way I'd drop the tank without testing the voltage in the wire harness AS CLOSE TO THE PUMP AS PRACTICAL. Current can be tested anywhere in the circuit, voltage has to be tested close to the load.

Given a choice, I'd use an oscilloscope and an amperage probe along with the voltmeter. That way the pump RPM can be determined, and current draw of each motor armature bar can be assessed individually. If the motor is starving for electricity, you'll find out easily enough.

Keep in mind that the wire harness inside the fuel tank is often a corroded mess. Replacement harnesses are about twenty bucks.