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3D designing


stump
08-10-2013, 09:06 AM
Hey guys,

Kinda throwing this out there.... I need some help. :1zhelp: :frown:
With the growth that 3D is currently experiencing, I am after some help in getting a few ideas made into reality, but I am absolutely no good at 3D rendering/drawing. :shakehead

They are large scale related (1/12), but given the broard range possible with 3D, there is no reason they could not be used across all scales.
At this time, I am in a slump with a big project, mainly because I need these parts to continue. :frown:
What I hope to find here, with such a large user base at AF, is someone willing to share their knowledge and expertise with drawing up several items.

The items in reference are really quite basic....tyres, wheels and carburetors.
Though, being large scale, I am totally unaware of any pitfalls or obstacles we may encounter on this journey. :confused: The wheels and tyres are for a drag car project, the carburetors are for a different (street car) project.

I do not expect help for free, and if someone is willing to help, I am also willing to negotiate.
Replies can be left here, or a PM if you would prefer.
I am happy for this thread to stay open for public input, as I fell it may benefit a lot more people who may be interested.

Thank you in advance.
Cheers
Greg :aus:

cjsbosox
08-10-2013, 10:33 AM
I'm in the same boat so I'll keep my eye on this one

avd
08-10-2013, 11:10 AM
Well Since you trying to do 1/12 or 1/24 scale. I remember c1 model or 81 help you since they both use 3D printing and 3D CAD. I usually saw that on facebook.

Ettore
08-10-2013, 03:55 PM
It's easy. Download Sketchup - a free program with numerous tutorials and blog support. Teach yourself. Use Shapeways to 3D print. I've been doing it for a year now. First image is a screen shot of a design I've made for rims, front and rear hubs and an intercooler for a Miller front drive race car. Second pic is hot off the printer. Third are the parts after a coat of Alclad. This afternoon I'm stringing the wire wheels.
Ettore
Proud member of ACME....where they call me "the mad scientist".

stump
08-10-2013, 04:29 PM
Thanks avd and Ettore. :thumbsup:
I shall look into both those avenues for possibilities. :smile:
I already have several items made from Shapeways, but they are other peoples ideas....now it's time for my own. :grinyes:

hirofkd
08-10-2013, 06:16 PM
My first 1/24 tire from Shapeways should arrive in a few days, so I'll post some pics. One of the greatest advantage of digital design is easy modification of 3D data. I've done three revisions to my current wheel project, and there's no need for making different physical part each time.
I have an engineering degree, so I'm already familiar with the overall procedure. I wouldn't say using 3D CAD is easy to anyone, but if you have already scratchbuilt some parts, you should be familiar with the thinking process of how to shape an object, and you do this thinking on the computer instead. Once you have the mindset, all 3D CAD programs behave pretty much the same, so once you go though a dozen or so of tutorials, you'll be comfortable with the new tool.
Question is whether you want to sit down and invest your time and effort in teaching yourself, which should save your money, or pay someone else to do it for you, which will save your time. And this goes back to the easy modification thing. If you do it yourself, it's economical because you are the one who own and manipulate the data.

stump
08-10-2013, 06:57 PM
Thanks Hiroaki. :smile:
Advice from someone who has been there, is appreciated very much. :thumbsup:
Guess I really should look for a program like Ettore mentioned, Sketch up, and get to work.....see what I can make of it.
Look forward to seeing your wheels when you have pics. :smokin:

andybmw7272
08-10-2013, 08:08 PM
Sketch up is easy to learn.
There are a lot of youtube help videos.
Ettore got me started a while back and the possibilities are endless!
Andy

stump
08-10-2013, 08:11 PM
Thanks Andy. :smile:

Just finished the download/install and I can see I have heaps of learning ahead....
Just hope this old head of mine gets a hold of it quickly. :lol:

JeremyJon
08-10-2013, 09:44 PM
Sketchup is a good starter program, but also limited in it's abilities too
Autodesk Inventor is a good next choice, and much more capable

Shapeways is decently priced and fairly quick & straight forward service, the only real issues I have with them, is that even using their finest resolution material leaves some striation pattern in the surface
I'm trying out some other options who use different process, including liquid poly cured with ultra-violet light for a smooth finished surface, if so a little extra cost initially will benefit the trouble of preparation and lost detail

People say full kits in 3D printing form are here, and there are some individual efforts, but the in mainstream is still a ways off in terms of price and print quality

Here are a few pics to illustrate, the first are wheels for my Vector kit, printed by Shapeways, the second is a photo of Vitan's RX7 wheels printed in the other method I mentioned ( I don't yet have an example of the method of my own to show), and the third is a tire designed in Inventor for use in my Shelby kit, yet to be printed in the second method

edit: this site's "manage attachments" upload is utterly useless, I'll have to post one pic per post, grrr :headshake

JeremyJon
08-10-2013, 09:58 PM
1...

JeremyJon
08-10-2013, 09:58 PM
2...

JeremyJon
08-10-2013, 09:59 PM
3...

stump
08-10-2013, 11:38 PM
Thanks for your input JeremyJon. :smile:
I really like that tyre.....very nice work. :thumbsup:

Yes, I agree about the texture from Shapeways, my only real gripe I guess. Something smoother would be a huge bonus. :grinyes:
My last big purchase (and it was BIG @ 1/12) was a complete body kit.
http://images55.fotki.com/v1603/photos/6/63306/9607029/DSCF8912-vi.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v258/photos/6/63306/9607029/DSCF8917-vi.jpg

For a large piece, the textured effect may not bother me greatly, as there is enough surface area to allow adequate smoothing myself.
Close up shows the graininess.....
http://images15.fotki.com/v587/photos/6/63306/9607029/DSCF8915-vi.jpg

http://images56.fotki.com/v714/photos/6/63306/9607029/DSCF8916-vi.jpg

A good coat of super-glue helps to give it strength and a good base for sanding....yet to start that....:uhoh:

Lownslow
08-10-2013, 11:43 PM
I did these on inventor, now i master wheels for other resin casters in due time ill have time to cast for myself, but so far ive done a little bit of everything im working on going back to school to learn how to use a 3d drawing program and scratchbuild a interior for a Veyron.
http://i.imgur.com/bEM39HV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/70hPZnI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BR0pPLi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/g3wunRC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Gd5m2fb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qErrcbj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RHDQvoL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5fWoXNS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iaIjkCJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HkoxRky.jpg

stump
08-10-2013, 11:50 PM
Love your work man. :thumbsup:
Some of those look good enough to be kit stock, great stuff. :smile:

Lownslow
08-11-2013, 03:23 AM
Love your work man. :thumbsup:
Some of those look good enough to be kit stock, great stuff. :smile:

thanks most of those items belong to customers the hinges are my own project still in development but a few made it to public hands. im currently working on developing stretchwall truck tires.

http://i.imgur.com/mgfmLnE.jpg

mike@af
08-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Greg, my friend has that 1/12 Camaro body, and I too was disappointed in the quality. It was printed using the White Strong & Flexible material from Shapeways. It would require a lot of sanding and finish work to clean it up. However, there are much higher quality materials (Fine Ultra Detail is what I choose usually), but it comes at a higher price due to the higher resolution and time required to print.

jano11
08-11-2013, 03:15 PM
The only Shapeways material that can be used for scale models is the white frosty one, and that only for 1/12th scale.
I started with Shapeways 5 years ago and gave up on them.
Ever since I have used FineLinePrototyping, they have acceptable pricing and great quality that is good enough for 1/43rd scale models. Also you can chose the technology and printer that they use for your parts so you can get good quality for fair price as well as excellent quality for higher price.

Lownslow
08-11-2013, 11:56 PM
The only Shapeways material that can be used for scale models is the white frosty one, and that only for 1/12th scale.
I started with Shapeways 5 years ago and gave up on them.
Ever since I have used FineLinePrototyping, they have acceptable pricing and great quality that is good enough for 1/43rd scale models. Also you can chose the technology and printer that they use for your parts so you can get good quality for fair price as well as excellent quality for higher price.

at a 170$ im good with shapeways for now.

stump
08-12-2013, 02:19 AM
Thanks for the heads up jano11. :)
Have bookmarked them for future reference. :wink:

Mike, yeah.....I guess disappointment was probably my initial reaction.
From what I have been told (TDR tip with WSF products) it needs a good coating of super glue, maybe two coats, then sand......that I feel is going to be the time consuming part of it. :frown:
The White Strong and Flexible is quite porous by way of manufacture, and the super glue fills the microscopic holes, plus adds strength..
Would have loved the option to get the finer grade, but the darn thing was expensive enough as is....:nono: :lol:

JeremyJon
08-12-2013, 02:53 AM
Just out of curiosity, what was the printing cost for that drag body?
Yes, the ultra fine material does make the price nearly double typically, S&FP is the cheapest through Shapeways at $1.40, the best they use for that body IMO would be the Detail Plastic for it's smoothness, but it's $2.99, and the FDP is $2.39

Ettore
08-12-2013, 07:04 AM
I have found the quality of Shapeways frosted ultra fine detail material can be very erratic. Recently I ordered 6 items using it and 4 of them were terrible, the others excellent, all printed at the same time. I asked for a refund for the poorly printed items but because I had sprayed a coat of Alcad on them, they refused, saying that I had altered the model; but it's difficult to see imperfections without a light coat of paint so I'm stuck with poor models. Thanks for the tip about FineLinePrototypes. I was looking for a better printer.
Ettore
Proud member of ACME.... where they call me "the mad scientist".

mike@af
08-12-2013, 08:42 AM
Also check out http://www.kraftwurx.com/

They have some super high resolution materials, but you'll pay a premium for it. I'm going to look into FineLinePrototyping as well.

Ettore
08-12-2013, 08:46 AM
Completed this recently, 3d printed rim and hub for a Miller front drive race car. Wires are .008" monofilament fishing line, hand strung.
Ettore
Proud member of ACME... where they call me "the mad scientist".

Ettore
08-12-2013, 08:55 AM
Trying to post image again....

Ettore
08-12-2013, 09:08 AM
Kraftwurx bookmarked!

bbkbuys
08-12-2013, 11:30 AM
if you'll have your parts 3D printed, go for highest resolution you can get, despite the higher price. Go for high res printing, don't settle for lower. Period.

Problem is, with low resolution, you'll be sanding a lot. An no way, that after sanding you will keep detail as is directly after printing: all sharp edges become rounded a bit, small detail will most likely be altered at least, if not disappear all together.

I have my parts printed 30 micron step, and even then i need to sand down the stepping lines although maybe not even visible on the raw material. But wait until you put a glossy shine on it...

some pics of things i've been doing lately: 1/8 1/12 1/20 james hunt helmet, 1/12 HRE rims for enzo ferrari and 1/12 aston martin engine for tamiya lola.

hunt helmet 3D printed & sanded, decal design in progress
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12006/hunt13.jpg

(my) hunt helmet in 1/8 by francis moereels
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/dc/8000/8004/7.jpg

1/12 enzo HRE rims
inspiration
http://fancytuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/hre-wheels-murder-out-a-ferrari-enzo-4-660x440.jpg

digital file
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12005/13Ddraw.jpg

3D print: on right side 1st attempt 'low' .50micron res, left 2nd attempt high .30 micron res
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12005/master8.jpg

final product (resin repro)
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12005/1.jpg

1/12 ASTON MARTIN engine for lola 1967 LE MANS/NURNBURGRING
3d drawing
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12007/final/1.jpg

3d manual (animated version available ;-)
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/manuals/1-12/bbk/12007/drawings/46.jpg

3D printed parts, batch 1
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12007/inkit1.jpg

http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12007/inkit3.jpg

3D printed parts, batch2 which included exhaust system & reprint of few corrected parts (like spacing between spark plugs - yes, that's how much detail went into this design, some 90+ parts in total ;-))
http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12007/final/ass1.jpg

http://www.bestbalsakits.be/bestbalsakits/gifs/bbk/tk/12000/12007/final/ass2.jpg

I have been sanding on this engine for over 100 hours, and detail was already very very fine and steps were almost invisible on raw material. Low res? Nah....

Wim

puffyrs
08-12-2013, 05:22 PM
Wim
Great parts.
How long did it take to draw the engine, thats very good.

Martin

JeremyJon
08-12-2013, 07:24 PM
Hi rez selection varies from company to company, and specific material & print method used, of course reasonable price for most people is a high consideration also, which the discussion has been about

Has anyone used "Ownage" out of Hongkong??
I don't know their pricing, but was recommended to me as a place to try as well

stump
08-13-2013, 03:11 AM
Just out of curiosity, what was the printing cost for that drag body?
Yes, the ultra fine material does make the price nearly double typically, S&FP is the cheapest through Shapeways at $1.40, the best they use for that body IMO would be the Detail Plastic for it's smoothness, but it's $2.99, and the FDP is $2.39
Body was $397US plus postage to me in Aus @ $20
With our dollar taking a dive again, it cost me a lot more than that too. :frown: :lol:
One of the better quality materials would have been great, but I hate to think how much extra $$ that would've been.....:headshake

JeremyJon
08-13-2013, 03:39 AM
Body was $397US plus postage to me in Aus @ $20
With our dollar taking a dive again, it cost me a lot more than that too. :frown: :lol:
One of the better quality materials would have been great, but I hate to think how much extra $$ that would've been.....:headshake


Ya, that is quite a lot ...I think many people don't know how much the materials cost really is until they try like you have, mostly they - we - are printing small objects
Materials will eventually come down in price, possibly, but world super inflation may counter that progression for some years to come yet
If was done in the Detail Plastic material = $847USD, and if FDP = $678USD
Have you considered using a hardening filler primer, then wet sanding that away until the poly starts to show through again, repeat, and by doing so fill in the low - pitted - areas, I think maybe better result & less chance of uneven body surfaces after as result

hirofkd
08-13-2013, 07:15 PM
My first experiment turned out alright. The narrowest groove of 0.1 mm seems a little faint, but could be worse.
I'll try 0.15 and 0.2 mm on the next project to see if they become crispier. 0.3 mm and wider grooves are sharply defined.
Real challenge will be a gentry curved surface, and I'm looking forward to receiving my second experiment.
Years ago, it cost me $300 to print one 1/24 wheel, but now it's $15 for an experiment like this. Amazing...

CAD: Alibre Design v.12
Material: Frosted Ultra Detail
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/hirofkd/misc/tire1_zpsa299599d.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/hirofkd/misc/tire2_zpsd38558cc.jpg

rprzybylo
08-13-2013, 10:40 PM
I recently heard that (some?) UPS stores will have 3d printing services available. Not sure about what the machines or cost are.

stump
08-14-2013, 02:28 AM
JeremyJon,
Yes, I am still hopeful that costing will decrease as time goes, and the availability of more subject material may help this along....:dunno:

And yes, I have definitely considered a high fill primer coat, several if needed. :smile:
Think I'd rather try that first, as the alternate (preferred) method is several coats of super glue. :frown: Really don't want to go that route. :lol:


Hiro,
That tyre looks pretty awesome to me mate, great work. :worshippy

Lownslow
08-14-2013, 03:08 PM
My first experiment turned out alright. The narrowest groove of 0.1 mm seems a little faint, but could be worse.
I'll try 0.15 and 0.2 mm on the next project to see if they become crispier. 0.3 mm and wider grooves are sharply defined.
Real challenge will be a gentry curved surface, and I'm looking forward to receiving my second experiment.
Years ago, it cost me $300 to print one 1/24 wheel, but now it's $15 for an experiment like this. Amazing...

CAD: Alibre Design v.12
Material: Frosted Ultra Detail
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/hirofkd/misc/tire1_zpsa299599d.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/hirofkd/misc/tire2_zpsd38558cc.jpg
Nice im still skeptical about putting a tire out but after seeing this im going for it.

cjsbosox
08-14-2013, 03:11 PM
Lownslow I sent you a pm

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