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Alclad airbrush help


keveuh
06-02-2013, 11:04 AM
Hi everybody, I'm working on a Tamiya Carrera GT, I decided to use Alclad Aluminum on some parts. My airbrush is an Iwata HP-CR 0,5mm needle.

I first sprayed some Alclad grey primer, after 24h I sprayed Alclad Aluminum. But that's what I got:

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/22/1370184985-img-20130602-175035.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-22-1370184985-img-20130602-175035.jpg)
http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/22/1370184983-img-20130602-175057.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-22-1370184983-img-20130602-175057.jpg)
http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/22/1370184986-img-20130602-175126.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-22-1370184986-img-20130602-175126.jpg)
http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/22/1370184985-img-20130602-175156.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-22-1370184985-img-20130602-175156.jpg)


It's not at all like it should be, it looks like the particules are not "connected" and the paint is not like a whole. Anyway far from the aluminum result I should get. I tried at 15 PSI, and I even tried a bit more and a bit less pressure. Thin layers, medium layers, nothing worked.

The only thing I can think of is that the surface was very rough due to the primer. I know primer should be sanded sometimes when it needs to, I always get rough surfaces with Alclad primer. the like the engine it's impossible to sand because it's way to many small details on the piece !

Do you have any advise on how to use Alclad Primer + aluminum properly ? Should I use another primer ? Which one ? And what to do with my pieces now ?

Thanks a lot !!!

oter
06-02-2013, 11:58 AM
use gloss black as base coat

keveuh
06-02-2013, 12:21 PM
Gloss black as base coat for Aluminum ? Alclad Aluminum is not one of those "hish shine" paints that need gloss black (enamel) base.

But I'm gonna try, but what kind of black then ? Enamel or lacquer ? Will the Aluminum lacquer not eat the enamel base in case ?

thanks !

freakray
06-02-2013, 01:10 PM
Alclad aluminum does not require a gloss black base coat. Following the guide lines on the container is general a good bet and Alclad states on their container to use a gray primer base.

What distance are you spraying from? How wet are you laying the coat on? Have you added any additional thinner to the Alclad?

keveuh
06-02-2013, 01:59 PM
Alclad aluminum does not require a gloss black base coat. Following the guide lines on the container is general a good bet and Alclad states on their container to use a gray primer base.

What distance are you spraying from? How wet are you laying the coat on? Have you added any additional thinner to the Alclad?


For both primer and aluminum I try to follow Alclad instructions:
- I don't thin because it is thinned already and I wouldn't know what thinner to use anyway
- I try to spray thin layers, but that's hard to say if I do correctly. I'm afraid to pull the trigger so I'd say that the layers I spray might be too thinned
- I don't apply wet coats since Alclad doesn't recommend it and I don't think it's needed for primer and aluminum (Alclad paints)
- for the distance I don't know exactly but pretty close, especially since the pieces I paint are small it's easier to spray from a close range


I've watched Alclad tutorials and I've seen they use a single action airbrush, so obviously their "paint ouput" is definetely higher than my dual action airbrush which I barely dare to pull the trigger half the way back. That might be a part of my problem too, I don't know. I seem to have a hard time to figure out how to spray a mist coast/thin layer properly. I guess it can be too thin to be called a mist coat/thin layer.

avd
06-02-2013, 10:03 PM
Someone skip a step of painting lol. Yeah after primer, you gotta paint gloss black before do alclad

keveuh
06-03-2013, 02:10 AM
Someone skip a step of painting lol. Yeah after primer, you gotta paint gloss black before do alclad


Where does Alclad say to use a gloss black underneath a "REGULAR ALCLAD FINISH" which is in my case Aluminum ??

http://alclad2.com/how-to/

They don't talk about any gloss black base coat for the regular finishes such as Aluminum.

And on their website still, a tutorial video (that I've watched already) shows that the guy sprays Aluminum on top of Primer without anything else. I think you're mixing the high shines and regular Alclad finishes.

But anyway I would gladly take the advice of putting some gloss black underneath the Aluminum but Alclad says on their website that the Aluminum is "is similar in strength to lacquer/cellulose", which means if I use a enamel black (like I would do with their high shines finishes) it would certainly react and craze. I mean I think it's just primer to use but HOW to prevent having a rough surface on parts you cannot sand later on ??
Because when I painted the aluminum it reallt felt like the primer was absorbing the aluminum... well you can see on the pictures.

Thanks.

sjelic
06-03-2013, 02:28 AM
Check the bottle, if paint is not fully consistent (if it has like small particles inside) then it is old and you will hardly get good coat out of it, if you cannot spray very lightly at low pressure then this is the case, you should buy new bottle, for alu I don't use gloss black every time.

keveuh
06-03-2013, 02:56 AM
Check the bottle, if paint is not fully consistent (if it has like small particles inside) then it is old and you will hardly get good coat out of it, if you cannot spray very lightly at low pressure then this is the case, you should buy new bottle, for alu I don't use gloss black every time.

I checked my bottle and the paint looks normal to me, but then again I might be wrong.
When you use gloss black, what kind of gloss black do you use underneath Alclad aluminum ? Brand ? Lacquer, enamel ?

Thanks

sjelic
06-03-2013, 05:11 AM
i prefer revell enemal, but humbrol or any other enemal will be ok

keveuh
06-03-2013, 06:17 AM
i prefer revell enemal, but humbrol or any other enemal will be ok


So you say enamel underneath Alclad regular shine Aluminum is ok ?

I'll give it a try, I have prepared some test spoons already, and my parts on the pictures here are taking a brake liquid bath.

white97ex
06-03-2013, 07:31 AM
I used alclad blackbsse coat undr my aluminum parts and they came out just fine. Smooth surface and the proper finish. Sometimes manufacturer recommendations aren't the best for all situations..

ZoomZoomMX-5
06-03-2013, 09:45 AM
I love how people get Alclad's own instructions wrong and then prove their lack of reading comprehension when telling others what they did wrong...gloss black isn't the primer/base coat for aluminum. Read the instructions.

The problem almost has to be the primer. I've not used Alclad primer, what I use on most everything is Mr. Hobby Mr. Surfacer 1000 or 1200, it goes on extremely smooth, smoother than Tamiya fine spray primer. You have to adjust your mixture accordingly for good flow, as w/any paint run through the airbrush.

One thing to learn from this, is if you see the problem, don't keep going...all the parts have the same "damage", which could be minimized if you stop and figure out what's happening.

I'm starting this same kit today. Good luck, I would think you'll need to strip those parts and start over...make doubly sure the primer is smooth as possible.

Vric
06-03-2013, 10:23 AM
I recall seeing somewhere that the Alclad Primer wasn't the greatest thing since the wheel. Maybe there's a reaction between it and the paint.

As for the black base, it's NOT needed for this color. (Stop saying the obvious when you have no idea) It's only for high shine (chrome) paint, and even there, if you don't use it, you will still have good result.

I use Alclad quite a bit. I own about 15 different colors (and their own black base) and never had this problem with my HP-CP (0.3mm needle) I sometime even paint Alclad strait on the plastic without primer or base coat. The paint will be a bit more fragile, but it works fine for most color, except chrome which will come out more aluminum than chrome.

Try spaying paint on a sprue part without primer or anything. You will see if it's the paint that is too old or if it's the primer that affect it. Also build the color. Do only small coat at the time, never do a wet coat since the paint is a bit hot for plastic. Alclad paint dry within seconds anyway, so paint, spray some air, paint, air and so one until you have a good coverage (3-4 light coats should be fine) And shake the bottle well enough.

keveuh
06-03-2013, 11:48 AM
ZoomZoom MX-5 and Vric = thanks for your answers.

My messed up parts are already in brake fluid to remove the paint. I'll try on some spoons different things, like primer + aluminum, aluminum direct on plastic, aluminum on black gloss enamel. I'll try to practise and find the right way to use that Alclad primer because even if it's not everyone's favourite many people use it without problem.

And eventually I'll get a bottle of Mr Hobby Primer 1000 (or 1200?) that I will thin with the leveling thinner I already have. But I really believe the problem for me was the primer being to rough.

And by the way, how should I know if my bottle of Aluminum is too old ? Will the paint behave in some specific weird way ? Then again it might be just me not using it properly...

Rasputen
06-03-2013, 09:53 PM
From your photos it looks to me like you are spraying too little paint or spraying from too far away. Alclad paint dries very quickly, which is one reason I like it. In your photos it appears that the paint was already dry before it hit the surface of the parts.

Sometimes with Alclad primer, you have to add a little more thinner to it to get a smooth finish.

hirofkd
06-04-2013, 12:25 AM
Alclad doesn't attack styrene, does it? Then, test on a shiny plastic surface (like a plastic spoon). If it turns out fine, then the problem is the primer. If not, there's something wrong with your bottle of aluminum paint.

keveuh
06-04-2013, 02:56 AM
From your photos it looks to me like you are spraying too little paint or spraying from too far away. Alclad paint dries very quickly, which is one reason I like it. In your photos it appears that the paint was already dry before it hit the surface of the parts.

Sometimes with Alclad primer, you have to add a little more thinner to it to get a smooth finish.

Thanks for your answer. What kind of thinner should I use in alclad primer ? Because Alclad always says to NEVER thin their products !


And I see many of you think that it might be my bottle the problem, but is it like lottery to buy Alclad paints ??? I mean if I buy a new bottle (which will cost me me at least 14 - quite pricey -) and that new bottle is not good again I don't think the website I bought it from will want to send me a new one or even give me a refund.

sjelic
06-04-2013, 04:25 AM
It realy take some time for alclad to go bad and I never ever had a problem with new bottle, even when it is old you can get good resoult but with high pressure and a bit more heavy coat, if you turn bottle upside down and look at the bottom and there are no small grains inside then it is ok. Like all the guys said, just give it one more time but do something with surface. It must be super smooth Iif you feel under your finger that it is like sand paper then it is not good, you can thin alclad primer with regular nitro thinner.

keveuh
06-04-2013, 04:46 AM
It realy take some time for alclad to go bad and I never ever had a problem with new bottle, even when it is old you can get good resoult but with high pressure and a bit more heavy coat, if you turn bottle upside down and look at the bottom and there are no small grains inside then it is ok. Like all the guys said, just give it one more time but do something with surface. It must be super smooth Iif you feel under your finger that it is like sand paper then it is not good, you can thin alclad primer with regular nitro thinner.

Thanks, the primer I applied Alclad onto was rough like sand paper but I could hardly sand it because of the details on that part.
No idea what nitro thinner is and if I'll find anything here but I'll check. gunze leveling thinner would not work ?

kevjoh
06-04-2013, 09:06 AM
Low pressure and mist the coats on at a 45 deg angle always seems to work OK for me.

Vric
06-04-2013, 09:56 AM
Just spray without primer. You will see.

Old alclad usualy lack thinner and metalic particles clog. But it's very rare. My oldest bottle has over 8 years and still paint fine.

keveuh
06-04-2013, 10:48 AM
I'll try on bare plastic (spoon) and see how it goes. But I checked my bottle again and the paint looks fine.

Archibaldi
06-04-2013, 03:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0_ZAwNd78

Rasputen
06-04-2013, 04:53 PM
I always use Alclad thinner if I need to thin down the primer, but you could probably substitute regular lacquer thinner. If the primer is new, you should be able to spray it as-is. I usually have to add a little thinner to mine if the bottle has been open for more than six months. The primer dries pretty fast too so be sure to not let it dry before it gets deposited on the parts. I've had several bottles of Alclad aluminum colors that have been open for several years and they all spray just fine. I use a Paasche single action airbrush - I don't think I am coordinated enough to use a double action type. If you decide to spray one of the aluminum colors without any primer, be sure that the parts that you want to match are all of the same color already, and have a uniform texture, as the aluminum colors go on very thin. I've sprayed several of their aluminum colors over base coats of Alclad primer and I've never had poor results.

935k3
06-04-2013, 11:01 PM
I use the Alclad primer on all of my smaller parts and get great results with it. When I first tried it I had a Badger Crescendo and it did not spray with that. I the got a Iawata Eclipse CS it was a whole new world. It probably is the better atomization. I shoot it at about 15psi. Once you get it right it has a light semigloss to it. I paint it at about 2" out.

keveuh
06-05-2013, 02:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0_ZAwNd78

My problem is not with Alclad Chrome, nor with any "high shine" paints. I do have a Polished Aluminum bottle but never had any problem to get great result with it. The reason I guess is that it is much easier (for me) for get a smooth surface with a gloss black enamel than with a primer that dries very fast...

Anyway back to the subject.

I didn't know Alclad had their own thinner I'll check if I can find it here where they sell Alclad products. And I'll try again to shoot some primer on a spoon. My bottle of primer has been opened the first time well over 6 months, and I know that thing dries insanely fast in the airbrush cup !

Archibaldi
06-05-2013, 08:04 AM
All right, this video is not particularly about polished aluminium,
but it gives a basic idea - the surface beneath the alclad must be as smooth as possible. for small parts it's just fair enough to matt the plastic with your trusty toothbrush with some household abrasive, and it's ready to paint.

Sorry for bothering

keveuh
06-05-2013, 08:15 AM
Well it's not about polished aluminum either but aluminum ;)

But you said something interesting about using a toothbrush. That's what I'll try next time I have this problem, I'll use toothpaste because I know some people use that and I hope mine will work as well.

So thank you.

keveuh
06-06-2013, 10:25 AM
I've sprayed Alclad Alumin directly on plastic and the result was much better. It looked like it should, with a little semi gloss finish. But After 3 coatsand waiting few seconds between them I wanted to spray a bit more to maybe try to "deepen" the color but I got what's called "spider webs". I read about that before and it's the first time I experience it !

I sprayed at 15 psi and everything went well until sudenly it sprayed spider webs. Anybody knows what causes that ??? My paint was thin it didn't look too thick at all.

I've also tried the primer again and I still get a rough surface so I'll try the toothbrush trick.

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/23/1370528476-img-20130606-171236.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-23-1370528476-img-20130606-171236.jpg)
http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/23/1370528479-img-20130606-171356.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-23-1370528479-img-20130606-171356.jpg)

Vric
06-06-2013, 10:40 PM
Too wet. Alclad paint work nicely in thin coat.

It's actually a quite simple paint to work with. This thread make everything too complicated imo. Just do multiple light coat on a smooth surface. Just like any other paint that require clear coat. (Zero paint or any other laquer paint)

keveuh
06-07-2013, 02:22 AM
Too wet ? What do you mean is too wet ?? The Aluminum on the spoon or the spider web effect ?
Because I didn't apply medium/heavy coat and those spider webs came out like at once when I sprayed just a little. I tried on that piece of paper board to spray heavily, with lower/higher pressure just to see how it would react but I still had those spider webs anyway. And from what I saw on the web that's because of lack of thinner... but Alclad paints don't need thinner ! Something to note, is that the spider webs came after the paint had stayed in the cup for some minutes. As I said the spoon was already painted and I just wanted to had more to see how it would look and there on the edges of the spoon I stared to see wired "wires" building up.
Maybe the thinner had evaporated to much from the cup and the paint got too thick ?

Yes and also I tried to spray primer again, and since it was a bit rough still I tried the toohbrush/toothpaste trick and it works pretty nice, I should try it next time I have a primed part which is too rough and too hard to sand.

keveuh
06-18-2013, 08:15 AM
Well problem solved. I followed the instructions from Vric, spray directly on the bare plastic and it worked perfectly well ! So the problem was the primer too rough and absorbing the paint. The regular Alclad don't seem to be very agressive paints, because I have a bottle of Alclad Aqua Gloss here and it says on it that it can be used as a primer for Alclad Regular paints. So if they can be painted on water based clear they can certainly be safe on plastic.

Here's the pics:

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/25/1371557541-img-20130613-102249.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-25-1371557541-img-20130613-102249.jpg)
http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/25/1371557543-img-20130613-102702.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-25-1371557543-img-20130613-102702.jpg)

Thanks everyone for the help.

POPSICLE_PETE
06-20-2013, 11:56 AM
What kind of alunimum are you looking for. Its its cast..thats looks pretty spot on. If polished...then yes, you need gloss black. I think you have the wrong bottle of alunimum. BTW. Used testors black in a can. Alclad black primer is the best but I have had too many problems with it. The cap seized to the bottle everytime I went to use it and will eventually crack. Also everytime..I noticed the surface of the paint hardened and I needed to punch a hole in it to get paint out. Eventually the paint had too much particles of dried paint in it. So if you do buy it..paint 3 or 4 models worth of chrome at the same time. I did a test on a big can of plastickote gloss black enamel and dint turn out too bad. But it does not have as glossy a shine as alclad or testors.

keveuh
06-20-2013, 12:26 PM
I don't have any problems with my bottle, but as soon as one talks about Alclad people understand at once their hig finish paints, and this thread was about the Aluminum which is a REGULAR finish.

I have some Polished Aluminum and that's the result I got:

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2013/25/1371745331-img-20130609-114547.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2013-25-1371745331-img-20130609-114547.jpg)

Exactly like it should be, nice and shiny and I applied a black gloss enamel base. So I never had problems with the high shine polished aluminum, but only with the regular aluminum. My problem was the primer being too rough and painting directly on plastic (so on a very clean and smooth surface) gives perfect result for me. But one thing for sure, I'll stop buying Alclad primers because they give a too rough finish, I'll get some Mr hobby primer because siince you need to thin them you can then decide to thin them more or less according to your need.

Thanks anyway :)

CrateCruncher
06-20-2013, 05:04 PM
Airplane modelers have worked out a lot of the problems you encountered as they build a lot of metallic finish subjects. Here is a link to my local club's latest newsletter which includes an in-depth article on Alclad II from a guy that knows his stuff:

http://www.austinsms.org/news/2013/June2013.pdf (http://www.austinsms.org/news/2013/June2013.pdf)

keveuh
06-21-2013, 02:07 AM
Airplane modelers have worked out a lot of the problems you encountered as they build a lot of metallic finish subjects. Here is a link to my local club's latest newsletter which includes an in-depth article on Alclad II from a guy that knows his stuff:

http://www.austinsms.org/news/2013/June2013.pdf (http://www.austinsms.org/news/2013/June2013.pdf)

Thanks for that, I read some of it and it confirms my thoughts of using a Tamiya silver spray as a base for Alclad Aluminum. Precious informations there.

John18d
06-21-2013, 05:47 AM
keveuh - I just want to make a comment - take it for what it's worth - when spaying with an airbrush the size of the needle and jet is selected based on the viscocity of the media to be sprayed. You mentioned using an Iwata with a 0.5 needle/jet - When I use Alclad it has always been pre-thinned and is very thin so I usually use a 0.18 or 0.3 needle/jet - never a 0.5 - it is too large and allows too much Alclad to flow through the airbrush and onto what you are trying to paint - when Alclad is applied in thick coats it loses its metalic luster and become dull and blushed.
this is what Vric means by too wet
Just something to consider
maybe look for a smaller needle/jet set for your airbrush or pick up another airbrush used cheap. I have 5 different airbrushed one for primer and 3 with different needle/jest 0.5 - 0.3 - 0.18 - and then one airbrush dedicated for spraying 2K clears that is a trigger pull type so I can control and set the amount of material and pattern to spray while pulling the trigger all the way back for consistent air volume and pressure
Hope this helps you
John

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