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TS-13 eating TS lacquer? [pic]


dingguya
12-18-2012, 11:47 PM
Well, this is not good.

http://dingguya.com/f/mod/paintprobs.jpg

I sprayed this body with 2 mist coats of primer, 1 wet coat of primer, 2 mist coats of TS-50 and 2 wet coats of TS-50. Then I gave it 2 wet coats of Tamiya TS-13 clear and the above is what happened. As you can see it's mostly just around panel lines.

Anyone know what's going on here and how I can prevent this from happening again?

hd221813
12-19-2012, 01:23 AM
Next time, spray 1 mist coat of Tamiya TS-13, let it cure completely, to insulate the underlying paint, and then spray wet coats of Tamiya TS-13 until the desired glossiness is achieved. An useful trick I use when I spray wet coats, is to spray paint until the paint looks wet, then spray just air until the paint looks semi-gloss, then again spray paint until the paint looks wet, then again spray just air until the paint looks semi-gloss and so on, until the desired coverage is achieved.

dingguya
12-19-2012, 01:58 AM
Cheers I'll try a mist coat of clear first next time.

hd221813
12-19-2012, 02:50 AM
You are welcome! If you want to completely strip the paint off the model, dip the model in Castrol Super Clean. It absolutely does not damage plastic or rubber, and it works great!

http://www.toolking.com/media/catalog/product/C/a/Castrol_101723_1_Gallon_Super_Clean_Tough_Task_Cle aner_Degreaser.jpg (http://www.bonediggers.com/1-3/strip/strip.html)

http://www.bonediggers.com/1-3/strip/strip.html

You CAN'T go wrong!

dingguya
12-19-2012, 05:53 AM
Thanks for the tip! However, I'll keep this one as is. It was an old kit anyways and am using it for testing out techniques more than anything else.

stevenoble
12-19-2012, 06:48 AM
It's an easy problem to solve. Take the Tamiya TS-13 clear and throw it into the nearest bin. Use another clear that isn't so hot that it burns through paint and often decals as well. Problem solved...
Seriously though it's just too harsh a clear. I know people still use it and have great results, but I just can't ever get it to work very well and I always end up with either what you show here, or melted decals. Some clears that I have used to great effect with no problems, including over decals are: Gunze Top Coat, Finishers Auto Clear, U-Pol 1K Smart Clear, Zero 1K, Zero 2K. All of these have worked very well for me..

ffreak
12-19-2012, 11:21 AM
As mentioned above, my guess also would be the heavier coats of the clear would have pulled the color away from the primers. You didn't mention it but I also wetsand between primer and color with 1500 grit, and between color and clear also. This will give the color some teeth to stay put on the primer. I have had the same exact problem happen to me when I get a little happy with the clear. I learned to sneak up on it with lighter coats of clear and giving it a little longer flash time before adding the clear.

ZoomZoomMX-5
12-19-2012, 12:50 PM
This is a common problem w/Tamiya sprays, because it is lacquer. Wet coats from the spray can can overwhelm the underlying base coat, and cause the paint to run off the edges of panel lines.

If you decant the paint and clear, run it through an airbrush, you would not have this problem, as there is much more fine control of the spray from an airbrush vs. spray can.

Disregard that stuff shown above (Castrol Super Clean) as a paint stripper for this paint. First of all, it won't work on Tamiya sprays (it works well on hobby enamels). Secondly, that brand is no longer available, the name was changed years ago. I think it might be called "Purple Power", and they've also changed the formula, it's not as strong as the previous stuff. The website link shown is ancient history, information that is at least 10 years old and obsolete, written long before Tamiya and Testors lacquers became commonly used. If you have to strip Tamiya sprays, use 91% or stronger isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol, or Scale Coat, or Polly S Easy Lift off paint strippers, or automotive brake fluid.

dingguya
12-19-2012, 09:39 PM
Thanks for all the tips guys. I'll give the new method a go with my next model!

thijs37
12-20-2012, 07:37 AM
Some points: you're using a very thin paint (TS-tamiya) with very fine metalflakes and the color in it is not opaque but transparent, this ultra fine layer will always mix in with your laquer if you spray a full on layer...no problem! however if you spray a second layer too soon this will create running of laquer! with the results you got with the color running exposing the flakes! (you can try a mistlayer but this layer will also mix in with the thinner thats in the next layer of laquer!....So my tip would be...let your paint dry before a next layer! if you do this after 12 hours and within 24 hours you'll be fine!! Take your time in painting! I will always start my build with spraying primer letting it dry for a day...before i spray the next wetcoat of paint etc etc

dingguya
12-20-2012, 10:56 AM
I basically did it like this:

Mist coat of primer, let it dry for 30 min.
Mist coat of primer, let it dry for 30 min.
Wet coat of primer, let it dry for 2 days.

Mist coat of TS-50, let it dry for 30 min.
Mist coat of TS-50, let it dry for 30 min.
Wet coat of TS-50, let it dry for a day.
Wet coat of TS-50, let it dry for 2 days.

Wet coat of TS-13, let it dry for about 3 hours.
Wet coat of TS-13.

I'm thinking 1) I should have done a 3rd wet coat of TS-50, and 2) should have sprayed one or two mist coats of TS-13 with ample drying time before the wet coats. Does that make sense?

ZTony8
12-20-2012, 02:11 PM
You may have applied the clear at the incorrect time.With TS-13 you need to apply it within approximately 10-15 minutes or you must wait 4 weeks to apply it.The clear dries at a different rate than the color coats and if applied at the wrong time then problems will occur.

ffreak
12-20-2012, 03:34 PM
Also do some wetsanding in between primer and color, and between color and clear. I like to use 1500 just to scuff it up a bit for it to bite into.

RonCla
12-20-2012, 04:15 PM
I always ensure my room temperature is a minimum of 20C when spraying.

As the temperature drops the flashing off time of the paint will increase which will then increase the chance of getting the ' flooding ' effect your picture shows.

hd221813
12-20-2012, 05:28 PM
I always ensure my room temperature is a minimum of 20C when spraying.

As the temperature drops the flashing off time of the paint will increase which will then increase the chance of getting the ' flooding ' effect your picture shows.

Spray just air between wet coats and you will be ok. With this trick, I painted models by airbrush with temperatures as low as 5-6 °C (41-43 °F), no kidding.

stevenoble
12-20-2012, 06:31 PM
Also do some wetsanding in between primer and color, and between color and clear. I like to use 1500 just to scuff it up a bit for it to bite into.

Not sure if it's the same with Tamiya TS-50 as it is with basecoat paints, but you should never sand a metallic colour before you apply the clear as it ruins the flakes. Only sand a metallic colour coat if you have to remove imperfections and then always apply more colour before clear so you have an untouched layer of colour..

ffreak
12-21-2012, 06:20 PM
Not sure if it's the same with Tamiya TS-50 as it is with basecoat paints, but you should never sand a metallic colour before you apply the clear as it ruins the flakes. Only sand a metallic colour coat if you have to remove imperfections and then always apply more colour before clear so you have an untouched layer of colour..
Yes that is the general rules for metallics, but i'm talking about just a very light and brief scuff, not enough to blush the metallic. I have done this many many times with no problems except for the very first time. After that 1 boo boo, I learned I was sanding too much. After that,I have sanded succesfully many times, again, just slightly and with a 1500.

Didymus
01-06-2013, 08:27 PM
My LHS tells me that Tamiya is no longer exporting TS-13 to the U.S.

hd221813
01-07-2013, 06:49 AM
I'm thinking 1) I should have done a 3rd wet coat of TS-50, and 2) should have sprayed one or two mist coats of TS-13 with ample drying time before the wet coats. Does that make sense?

Yes, absolutely, to insulate the underlying paint (TS-50) from the "hot" wet coats.

ZoomZoomMX-5
01-07-2013, 09:47 AM
My LHS tells me that Tamiya is no longer exporting TS-13 to the U.S.

Not a problem for me anymore, the U-Pol Power Can clear decanted, thinned w/some Tamiya or Gunze hobby lacquer thinners, run through my airbrush...much better than TS 13. It's harder to buff out, but it also won't get sticky w/excessive handling like TS 13 would. No looking back...I'm 1000% fine w/o TS 13 in my life anymore :cool:

stevenoble
01-07-2013, 12:10 PM
No looking back...I'm 1000% fine w/o TS 13 in my life anymore :cool:

With you all the way on this. I used the TS-13 a few times. It's far too finicky in it's application and way too risky over decals. I can't be bothered wasting time applying mist coats, waiting, more misting, then wet coats...
Far better clear coats out there that do the job without all the hassle. The U-Pol that you mention, any 2K, Gunze Mr Top Coat, Finishers Auto Clear, the list goes on. Why people insist on using TS-13 baffles me, when there are better, quicker modern alternatives readily available off the shelf..

Slash.Snakepit
01-07-2013, 06:10 PM
Well...I have mixed experiences using cans and airbrush for primer, color and clear.

I love Tamiyaīs canned primer and metallic colors...but I canīt seem to make solid colors work nor the clear.

Even though itīs nasty stuff, I was amazed by 2K clear (always hardcore safety gear on!), the latest one I got is from PPG, properly mixed is simply awesome and by properly I mean no rocket science, just followed the instructions from the can and sprayed through my airbrush.

If you ever use that stuff, clean up your tools right away or you will be in a long frustrating and maybe dangerous cleaning session and obviously heavy metal safety, goggles, proper respirator, gloves and ventilation a plenty.

Very forgiving and very tough, it took my noobish sanding and polishing style very well.

Sometimes it seems that some people tend to spray cans as it seems not as harmful as mixing stinky paints, retarders and thinners...but it is also very nasty stuff. So, sorry about the repeating, always wear safety when using this kind of chemicals and never ever around children and pets. Or go water-based paints, I donīt have the talent or technique for those.

To me is just one of those things there are a lot of variables and choices to consider as ZoomZoom said, try as many as you can, one of them will suit your style.

Good modeling !

Exotics_Builder
01-08-2013, 09:17 AM
With you all the way on this. I used the TS-13 a few times. It's far too finicky in it's application and way too risky over decals. I can't be bothered wasting time applying mist coats, waiting, more misting, then wet coats...
Far better clear coats out there that do the job without all the hassle. The U-Pol that you mention, any 2K, Gunze Mr Top Coat, Finishers Auto Clear, the list goes on. Why people insist on using TS-13 baffles me, when there are better, quicker modern alternatives readily available off the shelf..

This is the first I have heard of U-Pol, is it a urethane or lacquer? I have 1 can of TS-13 left and it just sits there due to problems mentioned above. I have been using Testor Wet Look Clear Lacquer with some success and have gotten to the point where I am decanting it and airbrushing. I was wondering if U-Pol is a better alternative.

Thanks,

Gerry

ZoomZoomMX-5
01-08-2013, 12:21 PM
This is the first I have heard of U-Pol, is it a urethane or lacquer? I have 1 can of TS-13 left and it just sits there due to problems mentioned above. I have been using Testor Wet Look Clear Lacquer with some success and have gotten to the point where I am decanting it and airbrushing. I was wondering if U-Pol is a better alternative.

Thanks,

Gerry

The Power Can clear is apparently a single stage (1 component) urethane. There are spec sheets out there, and that's what someone determined what it is. This would explain why it dries harder than Tamiya, and seems safe to use over lacquers and decals. It's hotter than Tamiya; if you shoot it from the rattle can it will likely etch the plastic. If you use a good primer on the plastic, that should be sufficient. Decanting it/airbrushing so far hasn't given me any problems with etching. My only issue is the propellant...I can start shooting decanted Tamiya much sooner, the residual propellant in the U-Pol gave me some tiny "pinholes" that are a lot like tiny fisheyes. Also had some other weirdness, and all from doing wet coats too quickly after decanting. When I last shot a model with it, I let the paint outgas for about 30 mins, and it went on perfectly (my Mica Red LFA shown recently).

AndyBMW has had some issues w/it recently, but he had tried a couple of different thinners. I use Tamiya lacquer thinner or Gunze Mr. Color thinner to reduce the decanted paint a bit...in fact I have used a good bit of it to make the final coats really flow nicely. The cans are big, I use a lot of clear and I think one can will do about 9 or 10 bodies w/my setup.

I have avoided the One Coat lacquer due to several people reporting that even when cured, the surface might be damaged by anything that comes in contact with it, like when shipping or transporting to a show. Never have that problem w/TS13 nor U-Pol, nor Mr. Topcote.

andybmw7272
01-08-2013, 03:51 PM
I used lacquer thinner as well as PPG urethane reducer.
Neither of those let it flow right and the UPOL came out smooth but flat... I wondered if it would ever be shiny,

I tried spraying it on thin, laying it down thick. Over Tamiya acrylic, over Tamiya lacquer, over Testors MM Lacquer...

As I told Bob, it was something I am doing wrong, but I cant figure out what.

After seeing Bob's LFA, I am determined to get it right.
That thing is unbelievable.

I will update this post should I get the UPOL puzzle solved.
Andy


The Power Can clear is apparently a single stage (1 component) urethane. There are spec sheets out there, and that's what someone determined what it is. This would explain why it dries harder than Tamiya, and seems safe to use over lacquers and decals. It's hotter than Tamiya; if you shoot it from the rattle can it will likely etch the plastic. If you use a good primer on the plastic, that should be sufficient. Decanting it/airbrushing so far hasn't given me any problems with etching. My only issue is the propellant...I can start shooting decanted Tamiya much sooner, the residual propellant in the U-Pol gave me some tiny "pinholes" that are a lot like tiny fisheyes. Also had some other weirdness, and all from doing wet coats too quickly after decanting. When I last shot a model with it, I let the paint outgas for about 30 mins, and it went on perfectly (my Mica Red LFA shown recently).

AndyBMW has had some issues w/it recently, but he had tried a couple of different thinners.

stevenoble
01-08-2013, 05:32 PM
The u-Pol I use is a 1K ready to use lacquer in a tin, not an aerosol

http://www.dbpaints.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=778

andybmw7272
01-08-2013, 06:39 PM
Mine is aerosol.
How do you think the lacquer works Steve? What specifically do you thin it with?

I hope this isn't considered hijacking a thread, as I think the questions will get the problems in the initial question rectified.

Thanks in advance.
Andy

dingguya
01-08-2013, 08:45 PM
No please do continue! :)

eyckles
01-09-2013, 06:18 AM
Were can i get Castrol super clean in Europe? Sounds like a great product.

Best regards,
Lesley

Exotics_Builder
01-09-2013, 09:23 AM
I have avoided the One Coat lacquer due to several people reporting that even when cured, the surface might be damaged by anything that comes in contact with it, like when shipping or transporting to a show. Never have that problem w/TS13 nor U-Pol, nor Mr. Topcote.

I haven't experienced that problem yet with the One Coat, but I do put it in my dehydrator to cure after final polishing. Haven't reseached it enough to know if that is a benefiting factor.

hd221813
01-09-2013, 10:21 AM
Were can i get Castrol super clean in Europe? Sounds like a great product.

Best regards,
Lesley

Well, in this thread it is written that pure isopropyl alcohol, being able to remove even Tamiya TS paints, is better than Castrol Super Clean, a product no more available to buy.

However, I can tell you that, besides Tamiya TS paints, any universal degreaser suits the job. I write from Italy, and here I use a cheap imitation of a product called sgrassatore universale Chanteclair (http://www.ebay.com/itm/330844818488;jsessionid=3398F774C96494546117C71018 FC2954?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html %3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D330844818488% 26_rdc%3D). I can assure you that it works great, not making the plastic brittle (like brake fluid sometimes does), and not making less transparent the transparent parts (like brake fluid sometimes does). It smells good too, having the smell of castile soap. Another very good product I can recommend is Arexons Fulcron (http://www.ebay.com/itm/140680213579?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2F i.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D1406802 13579%26_rdc%3D1).

stevenoble
01-09-2013, 10:38 AM
Mine is aerosol.
How do you think the lacquer works Steve? What specifically do you thin it with?

I hope this isn't considered hijacking a thread, as I think the questions will get the problems in the initial question rectified.

Thanks in advance.
Andy

The lacquer works well for a 1K clear. I thin it with basecoat thinner and it seems to do the job nicely. It dries very quickly and polishes well, however I prefer the 2K clear when I want a really top class finish..

Vette Modeller
01-09-2013, 10:29 PM
I've had this problem a couple of times with Tamiya. In my case in seemed to occur with blues as it has on your model. It seemed to involve the paint being pulled back along door lines, trunk lines etc. I pretty much solved the problem by decanting TS-13 and shooting it through the airbrush rather then the spray can which allowed me to reduce the pressure and amount of paint going on each time.

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