'03 LS V8 Throttle Body Nightmare HELP!!

Brand new to the site. Found this site while desperately searching for answers to my current situation.

About a week ago my '03 lincoln ls 3.9 started hesitating during acceleration and frequently going into etc failsafe mode. If I would stop and restart the car it would usually start back up normally. Maybe 25% of the time it would start vibrating and go back into failsafe mode before I even put it in gear. I would go through this cycle several times a day.

Now it's getting worse. Every single time I go above about 2100 rpms during acceleration my car loses power and goes into ETC failsafe mode and shakes and vibrates and idles inconsistently relative to RPM. I took it to the dealership and they told me the codes were all saying throttle body and that I needed a new electronic throttle body actuator which required me to purchase a full throttle body for $750. Instead I found one on ebay for $400 with a 60day warranty and in great condition having been tested for proper functioning (according to the item description). I had that throttle body put in today and my car is still doing the exact same thing. Dying anytime I go over 2100 rpm. The dealership is blaming the part. I think the dealership is misdiagnosing. I've already purchased another T-body online from a local seller for a very cheap price and a promise to refund if his part doesn't solve the problem. He says his part absolutely works, but I have a sneaking suspsicion that it won't help my car because I don't think this part is the problem...I don't know much about cars but I've got a gut feeling that the dealerships mechanics are misfiring as bad as my engine. When I went to the garage and questioned them today they seemed pretty befuddled..

What is causing my enginge to shake and idle rough and go into failsafe mode every time I give it any throttle?? I'm already $650 into this thing and I see no resolution in sight.

Shorod seems to be the resident expert so hopefully he can weigh in!

Thanks so much!

Yes, they are misdiagnosing it.

You have one or more (probably more) COPs (Coin-On-Plug) that have not failed but have become marginal. These marginal coils are causing RFI noise that is jumping into the ETC wiring and confusing the PCM into putting out false error codes. This particular problem is famous with the LS now, and I am amazed that the dealer didn't check for this first.

Your solution is to replace all of the coils (about $50 each) and all of the spark plugs. Please note that if you have less than 100K miles and your car was first sold after 9/2002, your COPs are still in warranty. A good dealer will stress test and replace all those that fail at no charge.

The marginal coils are why you are feeling some misfires at the right stress levels. The one that is causing the ETC failures is probably #4, but you need to replace them all. (You must replace the associated spark plug when you replace a coil.)

The baton probably needs to be passed to Joegr. He seems to have the hands on experience with these cars, I have the service manuals. ;) Well, my wife used to have a 2002 V6 and I had a 2004 V8, but neither of our cars really had all that many issues in the time we owned them.

Anyway, I think Joegr is guiding you down the right path. If you happen to have access to a professional scan tool, you may be able to check the PIDS for the individual cylinder misfire counts, even if the counts are not high enough to trigger a diagnostic code. This helped me several times to identify a particular problem coil before it was triggering a code. I replaced them one at a time rather than all at once. The good news is they are quite easy to change on the V8. This is one of the few cars I've experienced where the V8 is easier to work on.

-Rod

The electronic signal cannot mussel open a dirty Throttle body.

Caution when cleaning - See AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=968873 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=968873)

Also

See AF ''Jaguar Failsafe mode'' www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975140 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975140)

Dont forget to clean the MAF sensor, and connector.

The problems with COP's, COP boss seals, and a bad Cowl was resolved before 2003.

The electronic signal cannot mussel open a dirty Throttle body.

Caution when cleaning - See AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=968873 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=968873)

Also

See AF ''Jaguar Failsafe mode'' www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975140 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975140)

Dont forget to clean the MAF sensor, and connector.

The problems with COP's, COP boss seals, and a bad Cowl was resolved before 2003.

How likely do you think it is that both throttle bodies were sticking in the same way. It's much more likely that the problem is with the car (the coils), particularly when this problem is very common on the LS.

The problems with the COPs were not resolved before 2003. The problem with the VCG (boss seals) leaks was mostly resolved in 2004, as was the cowl seal issue. The COP problem has never been resolved. 2003 LSes are under extended coverage for bad VCG and cowl seals up to 100K miles or 10 years. 2003 to 2005 LSes are under extended coverage for COP problems up to 100K miles or 10 years. I have a 2004 LS and a 2006 LS. I can assure you by experience that the COPs still fail. I've had to replace five or six on the 2004, and two on the 2006. I haven't personally had the ETC problem, but one of my co-workers has. He has a 2005 V6. The ETC problems were fixed by replacing the COPs. I've also read of many other cases of this.

Ok, Update Time.

I purchased a 3rd throttle body because Ford SWEARS it has to be that I bought a bad throttle body to replace my original bad throttle body. This 3rd throttle body was bought locally and tested and I know 100% that it functions.

I just put that throttle body on my car because i didn't want to pay Ford again to do it and, amazingly, problem still persists. Exact same symptoms.

Here's a new finding, however. In park or neutral, I can floor the gas pedal and rev the motor as high as it will go in park or neutral which on my car is 3000 rpm. I can hold it at that level as long as I want without it failing and going into limp home mode. However, as soon as I put it in gear and try to drive and go above 2,000 rpm it immediately goes into failsafe mode. It even went into failsafe mode on me today once when switching lanes in cruise control? That's new.

Lastly, I brought up all of the COP information that you all shared with me. The technician was offended that i questioned his knowledge of my vehicle and how to fix anything under the hood. He said that the COPs were checked in the initial diagnostic and there were no misfires in any cylinder so that eliminated the possibility of a bad Coil.

Anybody have any thoughts? Why can I rev it in park as much as I want but in gear it dies if I press the accelerator past maybe 20%???

If any lost signal on a drive-by-wire system can trigger a Limp/fail safe mode.
It could be a broken signal wire or bad connection.
The wire will actually break in the insulation, so you can't tell by a visual inspect.

Caution - A bad system is an accident in the rear waiting to happen, see Kia
AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1080948 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1080948)

... COPs were checked in the initial diagnostic and there were no misfires in any cylinder so that eliminated the possibility of a bad Coil.

Anybody have any thoughts? Why can I rev it in park as much as I want but in gear it dies if I press the accelerator past maybe 20%???

It's the COPs. There will almost never be any misfire codes because its a problem with internal breakdown of the coil. The only way to test them is to do a stress test.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allfordmustangs.com%2Fforums% 2Fattachments%2F2005-mustang-gt-tech%2F22044d1166476058-s197-mustang-tsb-list-tsb05_22_08.pdf&ei=441SUJn4D5Ke8QTB-IHYAQ&usg=AFQjCNEsjzL9NDKWSJ8z80JNsKAHUDQlbQ

It's cheaper to replace all the cops and spark plugs.

If you do a little searching of the internet, you will see that this is a legendary problem with the gen II LS.

I really hate to throw this out there, but it bugs me that you are wasting time and money and listening to a tech over an EE.

It's often the #4 cop that causes this, but not always. If you want to bet on #4, why not disconnect the #4 coil and go for a test drive? It will run rough, but if #4 is the guilty one, you won't go into ETC failsafe. If #4's not guilty, then you could try all the rest of them, one by one. When you find the right one, you still need to replace all of them and all of the plugs.

A Fail/safe mode with no codes!

Don't rule out a possible fuel problem with the secondary/Jet fuel pump.
see AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1064333 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1064333)

Fuel - Fuel pressure test on both fuel pumps.
Ignition - ?
Exhaust - Catalytic converter back pressure Test

What happens when you pay for something that's not fixed?
Do you get your monies back?

Don't rule out a possible fuel problem with the secondary/Jet fuel pump.
see AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1064333

Air -
Fuel - Fuel pressure test on both fuel pumps.
Ignition -
Exhaust - Catalytic converter back pressure Test

Yes, do rule that out. You would get similar symptoms in that there would be loss of engine power. However, you would not get ETC failsafe mode.

Not True - Fiction stories are made up by the author, and non-fiction is 50% fluff!

There two modes of operation , a Open-loop mode & Limp-home mode, both are to Safe guard you, your engine, and Transmission from self destructing.

Any missing elements, timing, or sensors can cause random misfires & trigger a Limp mode.


See AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975424 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975424)

Note - The V8 cylinder 4 & V6 cylinder 3 had problems with The COP cover leaking + flooding the spark plug boss. The water would roll from the cowl onto the ignition lines and sneak into the rear of the COP cover.

If theres no DTC' s, i would lean towards a fault in the Drive-by-wire system.

Not True - Fiction stories are made up by the author, and non-fiction is 50% fluff!

There two modes of operation , a Open-loop mode & Limp-home mode, both are to Safe guard you, your engine, and Transmission from self destructing.

Any missing elements, timing, or sensors can cause random misfires & trigger a Limp mode.


See AF www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975424 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=975424)
This is different.
ETC Failsafe mode is a very specific mode. On the V8s there is a message on the message display that says ETC failsafe mode. It is triggered when the PCM thinks there is a fault with either the gas pedal position sensor or the throttle plate control or the throttle plate position sensor. No other faults trigger this mode. Not failure effects management, open loop mode, transmission faults, or anything else. The singular exception is that electrical noise from faulty coils will cause bad readings from the throttle position and/or the gas pedal position. The purpose of ETC failsafe mode is to prevent a runaway car (like Toyota was falsely accused of).

Edit: Never mind. I tried. I'm out of here...

I passed along all of your concerns to the tech and they tested it for about 7 hrs today and are now telling me that it's all caused by a short in my PCM and they want me to replace the PCM. They have quoted me $750 for that which I refuse to pay so I'm looking for a PCM online.

I've found one on ebay for $200 that says it's for an '03 Lincoln LS but the dealership says that it may not work even though it's from the same type of vehicle and want me to buy theirs...??

Is every PCM for an '03 Lincoln LS pretty much the same thing? Am I pretty safe to go ahead and purchase the one from ebay? It does have a warranty.

The part # on my vehicle is 4w4a-12A650-za and the part # online is 3w4a-12a650-jj

Both are from '03 Lincoln ls 3.9 v8's. Are those parts interchangeable/programmable to fit?

Try to find a place that will do a bench test on the PCM.
What happened to the original Throttle body?

Cheap Throttle body test -
1) Remove Air duct work going to the throttle body.
2) Have helper to turn the key ignition on with the Engine off.
3) Have him/her push the electronic accelerator pedal to the floor while you observe
the throttle plate, and make sure they run in sync with the pedal to metal.
4) Do a 1/4, 1/2, and a WOT.
5) Wiggle + lightly tug signal wires during the throttle plate test to make sure there' s
no lost signal.

Caution - Don't force your throttle plate to open by hand, let the electronic pedal do the work.
If it's sticking, use WD40, Q-Tip & micro cloth for cleaning.

Drive-by-wire system -
Electronic accelerator pedal > PCU > Electronic Throttle body
In most case's it's a dirty Throttle body, bad connector, or broken wire.

We had 1-bad Electronic Accelerator Pedal on a Jaguar for a $700 fix, it was actually fixed for under $2.00 with radio shake parts.

Note - Any oil/water contaminated COP's can be cleaned with CRC electronic cleaner.
I would save some money for new valve cover gaskets, spark plug boss seals and new 3rd generation secondary cam chain tensioners before your engine gets wasted.

I wonder if this car got fixed yet?
Most discoveries + solutions are found by the technician, ask Mr. Gasket!

Hello I have a 03, v8 as well and am now experiencing the same problems. I took it to several different places and all the codes read "throttle body" it could very well be the throttle body but after reading this and doing some research it seams to be pointing me to my sensors. I had a used throttle body put in already by ford and it's doing the same thing. So I took it to mideke and the codes rang throttle body and they said I shouldn't put an after market throttle body in because of the programming issues with the piticualar piece. They suggested I should buy a brand new one...........
Helpppp please

Hi everyone.. I have an 03' Lincoln ls v8. It has 160,000 miles and suddenly car overheated. I replaced the water pump and put on new o rings for the water pump housing. Ran fine for about 30 minutes then began to overheat again. Ended up being a bad radiator cap (fingers crossed) because Ive been unable to drive it due to the fact that it is in "ENGINE FAIL SAFE MODE". Now I have a total of 8 codes and they are P0223, P2106, P0123, P0223, P2100, P2106, P2107, P2110. i have no idea if the original problem of it overheating is fixed but hoping so. Now what do I do about all these codes??? Please help!

You actually only have 6 codes since P0223 and P2106 are repeated in your list.

All six of the codes are related to the electronic throttle body. There are a few other issues that can cause throttle body codes due to electrical noise such as water leaks at the base of the windshield and coil on plug (COP) misfires if I recall correctly. It's been quite awhile since I've read about those so I'll leave that as an exercise for you to search this forum for that detail.

If none of that pans out, you might actually have an issue with the electronic throttle. Here's what the diagnostic codes are defined as:

P0223 - Throttle Position 2 (TP2) sensor circuit high input
P2106 - Throttle actuator control system - forced limited power
P0123 - Throttle Position 1 (TP1) sensor circuit high input
P2100 - Throttle actuator control motor circuit open
P2107 - Throttle actuator control motor processor
P2110 - Throttle actuator control system - Forced limited RPM (this code is likely triggered by the P2100 and/or P2107)

-Rod