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Severe painting issues, it never ends. Need help


Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 12:12 AM
So I spent the last several days after work painting my F40 body, masking, painting hedliight buckets etc. I used Zero paint. It went on a little thick but no issues. Went to sand it smooth today and it went through. It didnt even get the texture smooth before it burned through. I am ruining body after body and it's killing me.

I have never succesfully painted/sanded/polished a body without burning through. I honestly want to just light everying on fire.

anyway, I realized a few things.

1. started with micromesh 4000, then dropped down to 3200 to get it smooth. Because its so light, the sandpaper burned through the paint from friction before it had a chance to actually sand the paint smooth

2. I used Tamiya 1000 sandpaper on some other areas. Paint got smooth FAST, but ended up burning through as well.

3. I have a Paasche airbrush, dual action. I used the samllest needle they make, #0 or #1 I forget. Paint seemed to go on nicely, but is this a bad idea? Did it not lay down enough paint per layer?

I noticed even on some of the bigger flat parts it went through, obviously there was not nearly enough paint.

I did 2-3 coats I cant remember, but the first 2 were mist coats. I basically just painted untill there was solid color everywhere. I guess I should have done another two coats?

This is my weak part, I just cant seem to get it right. Any help would be appreciated.

360spider
06-14-2012, 12:17 AM
I don't know, when I spray Zero paints it goes on so smooth I don't even have to sand it - just clearcoat and done.

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 12:37 AM
I don't know, when I spray Zero paints it goes on so smooth I don't even have to sand it - just clearcoat and done.

Im starting to think it may be literally too hot to paint, even inside. its 110 here and we keep the house at 78. My spray booth is next to the window, im wondering if its just drying too fast and not settling out.

1. what PSI do you spray your Zero at?

2. I know I can thin their clear, can I thin the paint a bit?

turbothirtytwo
06-14-2012, 12:46 AM
zero paint is automotive paint. it dont need to be sanded and it makes very thin coats, so thats why you burn trough. dont bother with flatening base paint just shot it with good amount of clear and polish that

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 01:11 AM
zero paint is automotive paint. it dont need to be sanded and it makes very thin coats, so thats why you burn trough. dont bother with flatening base paint just shot it with good amount of clear and polish that

It had a lot of texture, too much in my opinion but I may be wrong. It seems like the clear coat would follow that texture and I wouldn't end up going through to the paint before I got it flat.

Thank you so far, I appreciate it

sjelic
06-14-2012, 02:07 AM
Just thin it a bit more, don't wory about a bit of texture, you will never sand it smooth withouth burning through, thin it and don't go to light, shoot the paint the same way you do clear and after clear you can send away.

jmtomservo
06-14-2012, 02:46 AM
I agree with what has been said so far, but I had better luck with Zero paints by switching to a larger needle and nozzle. On my Iwata eclipse, it seemed to help when I switched from 0.35mm to 0.5mm needle and nozzle. (I even think Zero recommends at least a 0.5mm needle for the clear coats.)

With the smaller nozzle I was having to spray at a higher pressure (30psi+) to get a fine mist (instead of rough stippling) and even using mist coats, the finish was so rough you could rub your finger across it and the top layer would brush off almost like chalk dust.

Now with the larger nozzle I spray at 20psi with no problems. I also had the most trouble with their white primer and pure white. They needed to be thinned down probably 20-25%. I haven't had any trouble though with actual colors.

potsie
06-14-2012, 02:51 AM
I have not used Zero Paints yet, but I have a questions about your sandpaper. Reading your post I got the impression you were using a lower number paper to get things smooth - e.g. "started with micromesh 4000, then dropped down to 3200 to get it smooth". Sandpapers gets finer, and therefore better for "smoothing", as the number goes up. In other words, 3200 grit is more coarse than 4000 grit. Maybe I have misinterpreted your post though.

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 02:58 AM
I have not used Zero Paints yet, but I have a questions about your sandpaper. Reading your post I got the impression you were using a lower number paper to get things smooth - e.g. "started with micromesh 4000, then dropped down to 3200 to get it smooth". Sandpapers gets finer, and therefore better for "smoothing", as the number goes up. In other words, 3200 grit is more coarse than 4000 grit. Maybe I have misinterpreted your post though.

I wasn't clear, sorry. I started with 4000 but it wasn't doing the job so I dropped down to 3200. That was better but it wasn't doing a good job. Just the friction alone burned through before it actually sanded the paint smooth.

MidMazar
06-14-2012, 08:59 AM
At first i thought you were using the sand paper in the wrong procedure, but you explained why you dropped down. Also make sure you wet sand and not dry sand. With the paint you have to experiment a few times to get the painting process down with different psi and thinning. Get some plastic sheets or plexiglass as its cheaper than a body and practice a few different setups. Good luck.

Exotics_Builder
06-14-2012, 09:00 AM
I wasn't clear, sorry. I started with 4000 but it wasn't doing the job so I dropped down to 3200. That was better but it wasn't doing a good job. Just the friction alone burned through before it actually sanded the paint smooth.

If I may ask since your post didn't express it, how much pressure are you applying as you use the sandpaper? The Micromesh grits should have no significant pressure applied as you are trying to smooth it out. Heavier pressure can cause burn through regardless of thickness of the coat.

That said, I think the previous comments may be pointing to the fact that the paint may be drying before contact, giving you a rough surface. Some years back I had a similar problem with MCW paints that required some experimetation to get it to lay down smooth.

If you have some practice bodies, use them to work on your technique and remember to be gentle with the polishing cloths.

roymattblack
06-14-2012, 11:09 AM
To me, it seems like you're using far too rough Micromesh.
I use 6000 to START with, then go down to 12000 for a mega-shine.
If I were you, I'd bin the 3200 and 4000 and get some real fine stuff, especially with airbrushed paint.
It might seem like it's going on thick, but it really isn't. Your layer of paint is probably 1/2 the thickness of a sheet of thin paper so it will burn through really easily.
Seriously, use MUCH finer Micromesh.
You'll be gobsmacked at the shine 12000 will give you.
ALSO..... Remember that Zero paints are MATT FINISH.
They HAVE to be clear gloss coated to get a shine.
You can Micromesh Zero paint until your fingers drop off and it WON'T ever shine without a gloss clear coat.
Finally, if you're giving 2 x mist coats, give it another 3-4 top coats, then one last 'wet' coat.
2 x mist and a final top isn't enough.
I've sometimes given car bodies as much as 8 - 10 coats.

Roy.

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 11:54 AM
To me, it seems like you're using far too rough Micromesh.
I use 6000 to START with, then go down to 12000 for a mega-shine.
If I were you, I'd bin the 3200 and 4000 and get some real fine stuff, especially with airbrushed paint.
It might seem like it's going on thick, but it really isn't. Your layer of paint is probably 1/2 the thickness of a sheet of thin paper so it will burn through really easily.
Seriously, use MUCH finer Micromesh.
You'll be gobsmacked at the shine 12000 will give you.
ALSO..... Remember that Zero paints are MATT FINISH.

They HAVE to be clear gloss coated to get a shine.
You can Micromesh Zero paint until your fingers drop off and it WON'T ever shine without a gloss clear coat.
Finally, if you're giving 2 x mist coats, give it another 3-4 top coats, then one last 'wet' coat.
2 x mist and a final top isn't enough.
I've sometimes given car bodies as much as 8 - 10 coats.

Roy.


Roy thank you for your time but im aware of this. The reason i dropped down so low is because the 4000 wasnt agressive enough to get it smooth. Ihave the other higher grits but they were useless.

Your comment about the coats though helps alot. I was wondering i was apply enough coats. I have since sandesd all the yellow smooth down to tge primer. I will mask off and respray tonight after i mess around a bit

Things i will change.

1. Move up from the smallest needle to the next size

2. Instead of two mist coats and one wet coat i will do three mist coats and 2the wet coats

3. Thinkthe paint a bit
And see if i can cool down the room more



Are mist coats easier to sand down than wet coats after theyve cured?

Thank you everyone. I thinnk if i actually saw someone do it i would understand it immediately.

stevenoble
06-14-2012, 12:02 PM
Are you sanding the basecoat colour without any clear..?? That's why you're burning through. They are not designed to be sanded back, in fact they work better without sanding. Unless you have some major defect in the paint or some serious roughness you shouldn't sand it. A little texture is normal with basecoat paints, so don't worry about that. The clear will level everything out and provide the smoothness and gloss you desire. From the sound of it I think you need to add more thinner to the paint as well. They say pre-thinned but they are still very thick. I always add more thinner for better results. Try some different pressures. Start at 20 psi and increase bit by bit until you find the best working pressure for your airbrush.

stevenoble
06-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Best I can do is a before and after clear example for you, hope it helps...

Before

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/stevenoble/Hayabusa-firstdecals001.jpg

After

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/stevenoble/Suzuki%20Hayabusa/Hayabusa-firstdecals008-1.jpg

Look how the colours change and darken especially the black which looks almost grey before the clear is added. Don't be too hung up on achieving a flawless finish with the basecoat because it's just that, a basecoat...

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 01:41 PM
This helps tremendously, thank you. I honestly think the weather is throwing a spoke in my wheel. I think im doing it right but because its drying to fast it looks bad

Ill be back on it tonight and ket everyone know. Thanks alot for your help


Last question. Should i apply decals over basecoat or over clearcoat and then re clear?

stevenoble
06-14-2012, 02:10 PM
This helps tremendously, thank you. I honestly think the weather is throwing a spoke in my wheel. I think im doing it right but because its drying to fast it looks bad

Ill be back on it tonight and ket everyone know. Thanks alot for your help


Last question. Should i apply decals over basecoat or over clearcoat and then re clear?

The weather won't help, but it shouldn't make a vast difference with the application of the basecoat. Maybe with the clear then yes, you can definitely get problems with the clear drying too fast when it's very hot weather, which can cause orange peel texture in the surface because the paint dries before it has had time to flow properly and level out. If you are using the 2K clear you can get help with this by using a slow activator/hardener which will retard the drying time and allow more flow out in hot conditions. You can usually get different thinners too for most 2K brands, usually slow, medium, fast and in some cases extra fast. Obviously use a slower thinner in hot conditions and a fast thinner in colder conditions.
Always apply some clear coat before you fit the decals. You can sometimes get by without doing this but the clear will seal the basecoat paint and stop anything marking it (decal glue, setting solutions etc) it's just a wise step to do and the decals will snuggle down much better onto a cleared surface as it's smoother than an un-cleared surface. A smooth surface will prevent any silvering under the carrier film of your decals. after the decals are dry for at least 24hrs, longer if possible you can re-clear over the top of them and after that has dried you can carefully flat back and polish the clear to a finish. Sometimes when using 2K clear if you get the thinning and spraying technique just right, you will end up with a beautiful finish and shine straight from the airbrush and leave yourself little or no polishing to do.
There is another way to do it and that is to apply the clear after the basecoat has dried and spray this to a finish, allow to dry, polish the clear to a finish, apply your decals and not overcoat them with any clear. It's a very personal choice, for me I always clear over the decals but I never used to do that for many years, so it's up to you which path you choose. I do it to protect the decals and to stop them yellowing and cracking with time, as they sometimes can do this but not always. Some of the models I have built from 5-6 years ago are still like new with the 2K clear overcoat. Some from before I used to clear are tired looking, slightly yellowed and in some cases the decals have cracked or peeled..
To sum up try and find a method that works for you and stick with it. You need to experiment a bit and try different things. If you are forgetful like me get yourself a little book and write down what you do on your models regarding the painting processes. Note down the ones that you are happy with and how you painted them and you can then refer back to the notes later if you have problems. Also note down your failures so you can see in future what , if anything you did wrong, then you'll know how to correct it should it happen again.
Don't worry too much and remember that nobody ever suffers zero painting problems. I would say that I make a mess of at least one in five paint jobs. That's why I have a big vat of Isopropyl alcohol waiting for any cock ups that I invariably make. It's always easy to strip and re-paint rather than throw away the kit. Something I can't believe I used to do when I first started to build models some 20 odd years ago...

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 03:22 PM
Thank yiu very much for taking the time to write that i really appreciate it.

I also got some duplicolor clear which is much thinner than zero right out of the can. Ill mess around with both.

guiwee
06-14-2012, 04:37 PM
Best I can do is a before and after clear example for you, hope it helps...

Before

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/stevenoble/Hayabusa-firstdecals001.jpg

After

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/stevenoble/Suzuki%20Hayabusa/Hayabusa-firstdecals008-1.jpg

Look how the colours change and darken especially the black which looks almost grey before the clear is added. Don't be too hung up on achieving a flawless finish with the basecoat because it's just that, a basecoat...

aewsome finish steve do you mind telling me exactly how that was achieved??..what paint polish sand...etc.

stevenoble
06-14-2012, 06:39 PM
aewsome finish steve do you mind telling me exactly how that was achieved??..what paint polish sand...etc.

Sure that's no problem. All the paints are Zero Basecoat colours. They are the fairing parts from the Tamiya Suzuki Hayabusa kit. First all parts were cleaned up and washed in some mild detergent and left to air dry, before being primed with Tamiya Light Grey Primer (aerosol kind) The red is a candy colour so needs a fine silver ground coat, this was applied to the whole part and allowed to dry for an hour or so. Zero Candy Red was then applied over the silver ground coat, 3 light coats and allowed to dry. This was then masked out ready for the black, Zero Suzuki Saturn Black metallic, which was applied in 3 light coats. Once all this was dry I was left with what you see in the top picture, the 'before' shot. The clear was Zero 2K but thinned a little more than is recommended by Hiroboy. One light tack coat was applied and left to flash off for 5-10 mins. This was followed by the first wet coat and 10 mins drying. For the final wet coat I added slightly more thinner and sprayed a good wet coat. At the time I built this model I'd just bought a Mr Hobby Dry Booth, so I baked the cleared parts for 40 mins in the Dry Booth to give the finish that you see in the second photo (the temp is about 45 degrees in the Dry Booth) It's not been polished at all, that's just the finish straight from the airbrush.
This was the first model that I tried the Zero 2K clear on and I was very happy with the finish that can be achieved with it if sprayed correctly. So much so that I've practically used nothing else ever since that day. I firmly believe the key to it's success is in the thinning and the way it's applied. I love the fact that it never sinks into the colour coats. A lot of 1K clears that I've used spray really well and give a nice gloss, but after a nights drying the base colour sucks a lot of life from the clear and you end up with much less gloss than you had the night before. Sometimes needing to re-clear or do lot's of polishing. The 2K stuff is fantastic as it just stays up and the gloss levels remain the same as when you sprayed it. To be honest I was astounded by the finish the 2K can give you, and every time I've used it since that first time I am still amazed by how well it turns out. I've genuinely never had a bad result with it as yet, it really is quality stuff..

Hemi Killer
06-14-2012, 10:23 PM
So I masked off a resprayed the yellow. I cooled the spray booth, thinned the zero paint with about 20% thinner and stuck with the super fine needle. What a difference. I think the thinning and cooler air temp was key. SUPER smooth paint, 100% better. If I have time I will clear it tinight .

THANK YOU

Hemi Killer
06-15-2012, 12:55 AM
sooo...i sprayed the clear...I forgot to clean the needle after I sprayed the yellow the first time, in my other airbrush. Clear went on nicely, with a yellow tint over the white. :runaround:

I think maybe jumping in front of a bus might be easier at this point

360spider
06-16-2012, 09:14 AM
Focusing on the job and paying attention to details would easily fix your last mishap.

Hemi Killer
06-16-2012, 11:45 AM
Focusing on the job and paying attention to details would easily fix your last mishap.


I was able to recover it by adding white to the clear and respraying, then respraying clear by itself. Yello tint is gone.

As of right now, the body needs to be cleared one last time, then decals applied, then cleared again.

This certainly is frustrating, but I'm definitely learning a lot.

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