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Another SUMO Power Nissan GT-R available, but...


sam01contact
05-30-2012, 12:44 PM
This one is $276 :frown:

By the way, Top Studio is the manufacturer.

Veyron
05-30-2012, 01:40 PM
It may be better than Hobby Design's $266 one but it's still too much.

Kinnam
05-30-2012, 02:40 PM
Top Studio said their GTR has a better proportion than HD did. and it's much cheaper here :)

racer93
05-30-2012, 08:29 PM
Why do you expect a MM kit to be "cheap" these days? What have you seen to lead you to believe that? If it's plastic, that' one thing. But resin or MM kits, you're *always* looking at some big $$, relatively.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that TS's version is 100% better than HD's. Not even close, either.

Veyron
05-30-2012, 08:58 PM
I've purchased over 25 MM kits this year so I'm pretty educated on buying them, if your comment was directed at moi.

There's cheap, there's expensive, and there's reasonable...all in the eye of the beholder.

star21
05-31-2012, 03:08 AM
When I first saw it on Hobby Easy's site I had to do a double take. I thought Hobby Design tried to pull a fast one and rename their kit "Project R". :rofl:

The kit looks good but I'm not too fond of the molded-in roll cage in the door panel. :headshake
$276 (from HLJ) is getting up there in price point. I can understand that compared to a plastic kit the production number is going to be significantly lower so companies like Top Studio need to recoup their expenses but still... :eek7:

racer93
05-31-2012, 08:35 AM
I've purchased over 25 MM kits this year so I'm pretty educated on buying them, if your comment was directed at moi.

There's cheap, there's expensive, and there's reasonable...all in the eye of the beholder.

No, Brian--the comment was at the OP. I know you have tons of experience. Others (like myself) have less.

I have some (most with MFH and Top Studio detail and TKs) and I was trying to help out those that may not know of TS. I think his work is top notch and is almost without reproach. I cannot speak to the quality of this kit but based on his past work, I think it would be worth it IF you are interested in this subject...me, not so much so.

sam01contact
05-31-2012, 12:35 PM
Why do you expect a MM kit to be "cheap" these days?

racer93, I buy and build a lot of MM kits and I don't expect them to be cheap. I believe I have to explain my original post to you:

:frown: = Too expensive FOR ME

I have bought more expensive kits, but I don't feel the $276 price is reasonable for a curbside kit...Multimedia or not. Again, FOR ME.

That's why I put the emoticon next to the price. I never mentioned the quality of the kit.

racer93
05-31-2012, 01:26 PM
racer93, I buy and build a lot of MM kits and I don't expect them to be cheap. I believe I have to explain my original post to you:

:frown: = Too expensive FOR ME

I have bought more expensive kits, but I don't feel the $276 price is reasonable for a curbside kit...Multimedia or not. Again, FOR ME.

That's why I put the emoticon next to the price. I never mentioned the quality of the kit.

What I was saying is that, in general, since I've been around this industry (late 80s), MM kits have always equated to relatively big $$$. That's why I said what I did, being a bit dumbfounded that anyone would have sticker shock.

FWIW, it's too expensive for me as well. I was just stating about TS's quality for those that may not know them. I'd imagine that only a small percentage on here know of them.

ICMF
05-31-2012, 03:04 PM
I can understand that compared to a plastic kit the production number is going to be significantly lower so companies like Top Studio need to recoup their expenses but still... :eek7:

Actually, the real problem is that resin kits don't get any cheaper when you scale up production. (this gets complicated, so bear with me)

Normal plastic kits are done in factories, using steel tooling, injection moulds. Just like toothbrush handles and garbage pails and computer keys. In fact, there's a good chance that the production facility that's cranking out the newest plastic kit from Company X will be swapping out the tooling for cutlery racks or some other consumer product once they've filled the order for the required number of model kit sprues. You hire a factory to produce however many parts you want, they make them, then they move on. Most of the production cost is in research and development - researching the subject, creating the CAD drawings and designing the sprue layouts, and (most of all), finally cutting and refining the steel tooling to be used for actual production. Compared to that, the price of a box, some decals, instruction and the actual styrene is negligible. When you sell 2000 kits for $50 each, they may only have $5 worth of actual "stuff" in each box, but the rest of the money goes to paying the $90,000 it cost for R&D. However, once you've paid off that tooling, you're into pure profit - everything above the cost of the base materials goes into your pocket, and you can produce tens (hundreds?) of thousands of kits from the same, original steel tooling. That means you've got economies of scale, so instead of selling few, expensive kits you can sell lots of cheaper kits, hence, $50 Tamiya BRZ. And $50 Tamiya 635 re-release of a kit tooled 25 years ago.

Resin kits are different. You've got research, obviously, but development is negligible. You're probably creating your master patterns from sheet, strip and rod plastic (or brass), various putties, maybe tooling wax, renshape and the like. Throw in some 3D printing and, at the TOP end, for a full, curbside kit, you're probably well under $900 to have a production-ready pattern. Unfortunately, production costs aren't fixed. Most resin kits are cast in RTV rubber moulds. RTV lets you cast awesome detail, but has a very short production life. Depending on the complexity of the part, you can get visible degradation after casting 5 - 10 parts. Little chunks of RTV tearing out, sticking in your resin cast, which means the next casting will have those details filled in. You may only get 10 - 15 pulls from a rubber mould, before it's essentially useless. You've got to throw it away and start over again with new rubber moulds, poured from your master parts. RTV is expensive, so casting new moulds isn't cheap. You may need $250 worth of rubber for a full set of moulds for your curbside model car. If you can only get 10 castings before they're worn out, that's $25 per kit. Resin is waaaay more expensive than styrene. You're looking at $50 per pound for resin, vs. $.05 per pound for styrene. And depending on how thick the castings are on your kit, that can really add up. Thin castings use less resin, but more RTV, and are difficult to cast (more prone to damage, more prone to warpage, so a higher reject rate and possibly more after-sales headaches). Most resin kits are pretty solid. If you're using a pound of resin - which isn't unreasonable - you're now at $75 per kit, just to get the actual parts. By necessity, that means you'll have to charge a lot more than a comparable plastic kit at retail. That means you won't be able to sell as many. Which means you're ordering fewer decal sheets from your decal printer, fewer instruction sheets, fewer boxes, etc. Most print shops work on sliding bulk rates - the more you order, the cheaper each unit is. So you're paying more per decal sheet than if you could make thousands of kits. *Maybe* you think you can sell 200 kits. That's a really small decal run for Microscale, Cartograf and the like. It would easily cost $5 per sheet, maybe more, depending on the number of colours and print layers. Add in your other packaging items, maybe $15 total, and you're at $90, *just* to make and box a kit. Every kit. And if you sell out your entire production run... you're right back at the beginning, because you've got to order new decals, new boxes, pour new moulds... AND, that's not even paying off any of your R&D costs, or heating, lighting and a building to do it in, let alone factoring in any sort of profit for all your time and effort. Or PE. That stuff is EXPENSIVE to have made. Or turned metal.

Which isn't to say that everyone should go out and buy loads of resin kits or anything, or even that we should all be happy to see a $250 new release. But understanding how the kits get made, and what goes into it, makes it a lot more understandable when you DO see a steep sticker price.

jano11
06-02-2012, 09:03 AM
Exactly! Great post ICMF. :thumbsup:

Dexter Models
06-02-2012, 09:33 AM
Many thanks ICMF for this explanation !
It's 100% the truth and I hope most of people will see work of craftsman with a different eye.

Outlaw66
06-02-2012, 08:23 PM
I think that ICMS wrote everything that is possible about resin casts. Very good explanation !!!

But in my opinion the dilema over resin casts can be defined in one phrase: "This is for those who can, not for those who want".

I love the MM kits, principally the Aston Martin GT3 kits. They're my dreams. But I don't have courage to pay 300 dollars for them. With this value I can buy a lot of things for more than one plastic kits. In my mind of emerging third world, the money cost too much, and itīs difficult to accept to spend too much money in only one kit. I already spent this value in only one purchase, but I acquired a lot of items. My greatest moment of madness in resin kits happened when I spent 100 dollars in a Renaissance transkit of 1998 Nissan R390 GT1. I know that these MM kits worth every cent that cost, but for me is out of question...:2cents:

Romik505
06-03-2012, 04:35 PM
I fully agree with ICMF .
You are really very simple and clearly explain the formation of the value of a set of resin .
Cost of production is really great. And we need to think about every euro, ruble and dollar .I know about , I try to release a set of resin .
And the resin kit - this is a very specific product. If half (maybe more) from the circulation of a plastic model of buying a toy for a child, a set of resin buy only the modeller. And the modeller, who interested in this car.
And even if the cost complete resin is low enough, will not be convinced that the kits will be sold in 1000 pieces. and not 100.
And just to be understood that the production of resin kits will always require investment in new projects. Using 3D printing is expensive for a small number of release. And we need to use the hand made work in . A slow . :smile:

petesy
06-04-2012, 02:37 AM
Hobby Easy is listing it at US $230.77 and the shipping is cheaper. Why buy it from HLJ?

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