Crank Case Pressure, Oil level?
PanozDuke
03-22-2012, 10:39 AM
Help!
I need some advice. Upon running my new motor I found that oil was being forced out the dip stick tube (raising the dip stick), enough to cause copious amounts of smoke off the shorty header on track. It did not show this on 15 dyno pulls or some (15) straight line acceleration runs during ECU tuning. It sat for about six months before I got it on a road course. This is not a radical motor, 331 10:1, 300 hp, 6200 rev limit. I am using the Canton oil pan identical to the 5.0 GTRA one that came on the car except that I got the one without the scraper so I could use a main stud girdle.
The original system never caused any issue with the stock 5.0 motor which was in excellent condition when removed, 232 hours.
Only happens under load, no oil, by pass smoke at idle or reving it up in neutral. Tried removing a quart of oil, same result under load. Clamped a cap on the tube and ran it. No issues with performance, but got concerned about pressurizing the crank case and causing the rear main seals to fail.
Later, hooked pressure gage to dip stick tube and got no measurable pressure (PCV functioning normally?). Did not check it under load.
Plugs looked fine, slightly rich. Did compression test, cold, 180-185 psi randomly distributed. Leak down cold: 85-92%, randomly distributed, no correlation between compression highs/lows and leak down highs/lows. Leakage solely from the rings. These are premium moly, file fit. Cylinders done for moly rings and honed with torque plates and main stud girdle in place.
So, no broken rings/bad cylinders. Not the best leak down results, but acceptable for a track day motor provided it stays stable.
Going to (1) replace the PCV and (2) install a light spring to retain the dip stick (3) used some sealer to seat the dip stick grommet and to seal the path into the curved handle.
Also thinking about (4) adjusting oil level down some as dip stick tube terminates at or below the current static level. Not 100% I had it at spec in the first place, but it seemed to be where I had always run it with the old motor (caution, defective memory in operation). My dip stick tube has several hand filed marks added, so I have no real reference. The dip stick tube and dip stick may have been shortened an inch or two at some point, comparing it to the new one that came with the oil pan. This probably explains the multiple marks and cut off tip, but sure has got me confused when trying to intrepret them! Once I get this figured out, I'll modify and mark the new stick.
Couple of questions:
How much oil should I be putting in the motor with oil/filter replacement? I believe Canton says this is a 7 1/2 quart pan, but not sure if this is with or without the large K&N oil filter and if our oil cooler effects this on a refill? I was pretty sure I had the intended oil level (7 1/2). When I removed a quart, still had no oil pressure issues on track. Where should the static oil level be relative to the top of the rear sump kick outs?
Anybody else have oil-out-the-tube issues with the wet sump set up? Is this normal? I have seen folks use the plugged dip stick tube on wet sump small block Fords (higher hp) when doing road courses using the Canton pan, is that an acceptable solution without causing seal failures?
If I need to, I could install a catch can breather system, but that seems to be an unusual requirement on a 300 hp 331 motor. Comments? Ideas? Help?
Thanks,
Mike
I need some advice. Upon running my new motor I found that oil was being forced out the dip stick tube (raising the dip stick), enough to cause copious amounts of smoke off the shorty header on track. It did not show this on 15 dyno pulls or some (15) straight line acceleration runs during ECU tuning. It sat for about six months before I got it on a road course. This is not a radical motor, 331 10:1, 300 hp, 6200 rev limit. I am using the Canton oil pan identical to the 5.0 GTRA one that came on the car except that I got the one without the scraper so I could use a main stud girdle.
The original system never caused any issue with the stock 5.0 motor which was in excellent condition when removed, 232 hours.
Only happens under load, no oil, by pass smoke at idle or reving it up in neutral. Tried removing a quart of oil, same result under load. Clamped a cap on the tube and ran it. No issues with performance, but got concerned about pressurizing the crank case and causing the rear main seals to fail.
Later, hooked pressure gage to dip stick tube and got no measurable pressure (PCV functioning normally?). Did not check it under load.
Plugs looked fine, slightly rich. Did compression test, cold, 180-185 psi randomly distributed. Leak down cold: 85-92%, randomly distributed, no correlation between compression highs/lows and leak down highs/lows. Leakage solely from the rings. These are premium moly, file fit. Cylinders done for moly rings and honed with torque plates and main stud girdle in place.
So, no broken rings/bad cylinders. Not the best leak down results, but acceptable for a track day motor provided it stays stable.
Going to (1) replace the PCV and (2) install a light spring to retain the dip stick (3) used some sealer to seat the dip stick grommet and to seal the path into the curved handle.
Also thinking about (4) adjusting oil level down some as dip stick tube terminates at or below the current static level. Not 100% I had it at spec in the first place, but it seemed to be where I had always run it with the old motor (caution, defective memory in operation). My dip stick tube has several hand filed marks added, so I have no real reference. The dip stick tube and dip stick may have been shortened an inch or two at some point, comparing it to the new one that came with the oil pan. This probably explains the multiple marks and cut off tip, but sure has got me confused when trying to intrepret them! Once I get this figured out, I'll modify and mark the new stick.
Couple of questions:
How much oil should I be putting in the motor with oil/filter replacement? I believe Canton says this is a 7 1/2 quart pan, but not sure if this is with or without the large K&N oil filter and if our oil cooler effects this on a refill? I was pretty sure I had the intended oil level (7 1/2). When I removed a quart, still had no oil pressure issues on track. Where should the static oil level be relative to the top of the rear sump kick outs?
Anybody else have oil-out-the-tube issues with the wet sump set up? Is this normal? I have seen folks use the plugged dip stick tube on wet sump small block Fords (higher hp) when doing road courses using the Canton pan, is that an acceptable solution without causing seal failures?
If I need to, I could install a catch can breather system, but that seems to be an unusual requirement on a 300 hp 331 motor. Comments? Ideas? Help?
Thanks,
Mike
NZGTRA17
03-24-2012, 10:12 PM
Help!
I need some advice. Upon running my new motor I found that oil was being forced out the dip stick tube (raising the dip stick), enough to cause copious amounts of smoke off the shorty header on track. It did not show this on 15 dyno pulls or some (15) straight line acceleration runs during ECU tuning. It sat for about six months before I got it on a road course. This is not a radical motor, 331 10:1, 300 hp, 6200 rev limit. I am using the Canton oil pan identical to the 5.0 GTRA one that came on the car except that I got the one without the scraper so I could use a main stud girdle.
The original system never caused any issue with the stock 5.0 motor which was in excellent condition when removed, 232 hours.
Only happens under load, no oil, by pass smoke at idle or reving it up in neutral. Tried removing a quart of oil, same result under load. Clamped a cap on the tube and ran it. No issues with performance, but got concerned about pressurizing the crank case and causing the rear main seals to fail.
Later, hooked pressure gage to dip stick tube and got no measurable pressure (PCV functioning normally?). Did not check it under load.
Plugs looked fine, slightly rich. Did compression test, cold, 180-185 psi randomly distributed. Leak down cold: 85-92%, randomly distributed, no correlation between compression highs/lows and leak down highs/lows. Leakage solely from the rings. These are premium moly, file fit. Cylinders done for moly rings and honed with torque plates and main stud girdle in place.
So, no broken rings/bad cylinders. Not the best leak down results, but acceptable for a track day motor provided it stays stable.
Going to (1) replace the PCV and (2) install a light spring to retain the dip stick (3) used some sealer to seat the dip stick grommet and to seal the path into the curved handle.
Also thinking about (4) adjusting oil level down some as dip stick tube terminates at or below the current static level. Not 100% I had it at spec in the first place, but it seemed to be where I had always run it with the old motor (caution, defective memory in operation). My dip stick tube has several hand filed marks added, so I have no real reference. The dip stick tube and dip stick may have been shortened an inch or two at some point, comparing it to the new one that came with the oil pan. This probably explains the multiple marks and cut off tip, but sure has got me confused when trying to intrepret them! Once I get this figured out, I'll modify and mark the new stick.
Couple of questions:
How much oil should I be putting in the motor with oil/filter replacement? I believe Canton says this is a 7 1/2 quart pan, but not sure if this is with or without the large K&N oil filter and if our oil cooler effects this on a refill? I was pretty sure I had the intended oil level (7 1/2). When I removed a quart, still had no oil pressure issues on track. Where should the static oil level be relative to the top of the rear sump kick outs?
Anybody else have oil-out-the-tube issues with the wet sump set up? Is this normal? I have seen folks use the plugged dip stick tube on wet sump small block Fords (higher hp) when doing road courses using the Canton pan, is that an acceptable solution without causing seal failures?
If I need to, I could install a catch can breather system, but that seems to be an unusual requirement on a 300 hp 331 motor. Comments? Ideas? Help?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, I have played around with this quite a lot particularly with the 369 engine in the car now. I have not had any oil coming out of the dipstick tube but have had issues with the car puffing smoke (due to surge induced windage) through particular corners on our local track.
I am using the std Canton GTRA sump. I rang Canton to discuss they problem and they advised me of two things;
1. The GTRA "fully fabricated" sump has been superceded as it was more prone to windage issues. This early sump can be identified by the square corners around the front fully fabricated "kicked out" section around the oil pump area. The new pan has rounded corners in this area and has better drain back qualities to the main sump area which helps to alleviate both surge and windage according to Canton.
2. Oil level is critical in these sumps to prevent windage issues particulalry in stroker applications and they suggested (as you have) to drop the oil level by a quart.
What I have done to assist with overcoming my issues Mike is;
1. Cut back the dipstick tube so that it is not immersed below the oil level. This makes oil level checking far more accurate as otherwise you can get an artificially low level reading, leading to overfilling. This is due to time it takes for the oil to overcome the air trapped in the dipstick tube and displace it up to the true oil level. If you check the oil level straight after shut down (when the tube is immersed) you get a certain level, if you check again after 10 mins you will find the level has risen.
2. I have very very carefully re-measured the oil level in the sump.
3. I have re-marked the dipstick at a new oil level approx 1 quart lower than I was running.
I cant help you Mike with an overall qty of oil to put in the engine as I am running an accusump so my total includes what goes into the accusump.
A note on the crank scraper Mike, I still have this fitted and just trimmed it back slightly when I had the 347 in the car with a main girdle on it. I have used the pan now with the crank scraper in the 302 (with girdle), 347 (with girdle) and now 369 (no girdle as 4 bolt main Dart block). I beleive that the scraper is very instrumental with a stroker in helping to prevent excessive windage by "stripping" excess oil off the rotating mass.
The need for breather/catch can systems is not a hp driven issue Mike. Some engines/system configurations need this more than others, particularly where there are windage issues (which strokers are more prone to) such with the superceded Canton GTRA sump. I strongly believe that all track cars should run a good breather system. I run 2 x -10 lines (one off each cover) into a large Peterson catch can. The catch can has a breather filter top. If you have such a system fitted then you will not have to worry about the dipstick being clamped and it is far more likely that you will not need to clamp it as any pressure would be relieved out of the catch can breather anyway. You definitely should not run a sealed engine in a road race application in my view. OK on the street but not for the higher average rpm that we run.
I am sure that I have seen previous posts about GTS cars having a similar issue to what you are describing. I cannot recall what they did to fix this but I note that they would have had a breather/catch can system. Hope the above helps you in some way but recommend that you fit a breather system and catch can and if necessary, also seal up the dipstick tube better.
Kel.
I need some advice. Upon running my new motor I found that oil was being forced out the dip stick tube (raising the dip stick), enough to cause copious amounts of smoke off the shorty header on track. It did not show this on 15 dyno pulls or some (15) straight line acceleration runs during ECU tuning. It sat for about six months before I got it on a road course. This is not a radical motor, 331 10:1, 300 hp, 6200 rev limit. I am using the Canton oil pan identical to the 5.0 GTRA one that came on the car except that I got the one without the scraper so I could use a main stud girdle.
The original system never caused any issue with the stock 5.0 motor which was in excellent condition when removed, 232 hours.
Only happens under load, no oil, by pass smoke at idle or reving it up in neutral. Tried removing a quart of oil, same result under load. Clamped a cap on the tube and ran it. No issues with performance, but got concerned about pressurizing the crank case and causing the rear main seals to fail.
Later, hooked pressure gage to dip stick tube and got no measurable pressure (PCV functioning normally?). Did not check it under load.
Plugs looked fine, slightly rich. Did compression test, cold, 180-185 psi randomly distributed. Leak down cold: 85-92%, randomly distributed, no correlation between compression highs/lows and leak down highs/lows. Leakage solely from the rings. These are premium moly, file fit. Cylinders done for moly rings and honed with torque plates and main stud girdle in place.
So, no broken rings/bad cylinders. Not the best leak down results, but acceptable for a track day motor provided it stays stable.
Going to (1) replace the PCV and (2) install a light spring to retain the dip stick (3) used some sealer to seat the dip stick grommet and to seal the path into the curved handle.
Also thinking about (4) adjusting oil level down some as dip stick tube terminates at or below the current static level. Not 100% I had it at spec in the first place, but it seemed to be where I had always run it with the old motor (caution, defective memory in operation). My dip stick tube has several hand filed marks added, so I have no real reference. The dip stick tube and dip stick may have been shortened an inch or two at some point, comparing it to the new one that came with the oil pan. This probably explains the multiple marks and cut off tip, but sure has got me confused when trying to intrepret them! Once I get this figured out, I'll modify and mark the new stick.
Couple of questions:
How much oil should I be putting in the motor with oil/filter replacement? I believe Canton says this is a 7 1/2 quart pan, but not sure if this is with or without the large K&N oil filter and if our oil cooler effects this on a refill? I was pretty sure I had the intended oil level (7 1/2). When I removed a quart, still had no oil pressure issues on track. Where should the static oil level be relative to the top of the rear sump kick outs?
Anybody else have oil-out-the-tube issues with the wet sump set up? Is this normal? I have seen folks use the plugged dip stick tube on wet sump small block Fords (higher hp) when doing road courses using the Canton pan, is that an acceptable solution without causing seal failures?
If I need to, I could install a catch can breather system, but that seems to be an unusual requirement on a 300 hp 331 motor. Comments? Ideas? Help?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, I have played around with this quite a lot particularly with the 369 engine in the car now. I have not had any oil coming out of the dipstick tube but have had issues with the car puffing smoke (due to surge induced windage) through particular corners on our local track.
I am using the std Canton GTRA sump. I rang Canton to discuss they problem and they advised me of two things;
1. The GTRA "fully fabricated" sump has been superceded as it was more prone to windage issues. This early sump can be identified by the square corners around the front fully fabricated "kicked out" section around the oil pump area. The new pan has rounded corners in this area and has better drain back qualities to the main sump area which helps to alleviate both surge and windage according to Canton.
2. Oil level is critical in these sumps to prevent windage issues particulalry in stroker applications and they suggested (as you have) to drop the oil level by a quart.
What I have done to assist with overcoming my issues Mike is;
1. Cut back the dipstick tube so that it is not immersed below the oil level. This makes oil level checking far more accurate as otherwise you can get an artificially low level reading, leading to overfilling. This is due to time it takes for the oil to overcome the air trapped in the dipstick tube and displace it up to the true oil level. If you check the oil level straight after shut down (when the tube is immersed) you get a certain level, if you check again after 10 mins you will find the level has risen.
2. I have very very carefully re-measured the oil level in the sump.
3. I have re-marked the dipstick at a new oil level approx 1 quart lower than I was running.
I cant help you Mike with an overall qty of oil to put in the engine as I am running an accusump so my total includes what goes into the accusump.
A note on the crank scraper Mike, I still have this fitted and just trimmed it back slightly when I had the 347 in the car with a main girdle on it. I have used the pan now with the crank scraper in the 302 (with girdle), 347 (with girdle) and now 369 (no girdle as 4 bolt main Dart block). I beleive that the scraper is very instrumental with a stroker in helping to prevent excessive windage by "stripping" excess oil off the rotating mass.
The need for breather/catch can systems is not a hp driven issue Mike. Some engines/system configurations need this more than others, particularly where there are windage issues (which strokers are more prone to) such with the superceded Canton GTRA sump. I strongly believe that all track cars should run a good breather system. I run 2 x -10 lines (one off each cover) into a large Peterson catch can. The catch can has a breather filter top. If you have such a system fitted then you will not have to worry about the dipstick being clamped and it is far more likely that you will not need to clamp it as any pressure would be relieved out of the catch can breather anyway. You definitely should not run a sealed engine in a road race application in my view. OK on the street but not for the higher average rpm that we run.
I am sure that I have seen previous posts about GTS cars having a similar issue to what you are describing. I cannot recall what they did to fix this but I note that they would have had a breather/catch can system. Hope the above helps you in some way but recommend that you fit a breather system and catch can and if necessary, also seal up the dipstick tube better.
Kel.
PanozDuke
03-25-2012, 08:32 AM
Thanks, Kel.
I decided to try a 6 1/2 quart refill with filter change and it aligned with a much lower mark on the stick after running it to circulate the oil. I believe I have the newer oil pan so that may help if I can get the level correct.
The idea of shortening the tube in the sump sounds like a good one and I'm going to try that as well. I have worked on the dip stick sealing and I think it is much improved. I've added a spring retainer and sealed the portion of the handle tube that was providing an avenue for the oil to travel up into the curved portion of the handle (where I drilled the hole for the spring to attach).
Going to try it again on April 20th and I'll see if it is going to require a full breather catch can system. I only go to 6000 rpm so it might be OK, but if not that will be my next step.
Appreciate the great advice.
Mike
I decided to try a 6 1/2 quart refill with filter change and it aligned with a much lower mark on the stick after running it to circulate the oil. I believe I have the newer oil pan so that may help if I can get the level correct.
The idea of shortening the tube in the sump sounds like a good one and I'm going to try that as well. I have worked on the dip stick sealing and I think it is much improved. I've added a spring retainer and sealed the portion of the handle tube that was providing an avenue for the oil to travel up into the curved portion of the handle (where I drilled the hole for the spring to attach).
Going to try it again on April 20th and I'll see if it is going to require a full breather catch can system. I only go to 6000 rpm so it might be OK, but if not that will be my next step.
Appreciate the great advice.
Mike
boothkc
03-30-2012, 01:53 AM
Well, now you know you are driving fast enough.
We battled this for years on all 3 cars. Every time you really got a corner fast a puff or whiff of burning oil. Tried everything.... spring retention and covering the the dipstick top with a sleve of rubber hose helped a little. It just sloshes out.
Finally converted the cars to locking dipsticks and no leaks at all.
Get one of these and set the level right.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Lokar/Lokar-Anchor-Tight-Locking-Flexible-Engine-Oil-Dipsticks/1123907/10002/-1
Don't run too little oil in the sump. Use an Accusump too.
Kevin
We battled this for years on all 3 cars. Every time you really got a corner fast a puff or whiff of burning oil. Tried everything.... spring retention and covering the the dipstick top with a sleve of rubber hose helped a little. It just sloshes out.
Finally converted the cars to locking dipsticks and no leaks at all.
Get one of these and set the level right.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Lokar/Lokar-Anchor-Tight-Locking-Flexible-Engine-Oil-Dipsticks/1123907/10002/-1
Don't run too little oil in the sump. Use an Accusump too.
Kevin
PanozDuke
03-30-2012, 09:50 AM
Kevin,
Thanks for both recommendations.
Do you happen to know which application I should order? There are a 1/4 NPT and a 351W screw in the oil pan applications. I'm guessing it is one of those.
Mike
Thanks for both recommendations.
Do you happen to know which application I should order? There are a 1/4 NPT and a 351W screw in the oil pan applications. I'm guessing it is one of those.
Mike
NZGTRA17
03-30-2012, 02:17 PM
Well, now you know you are driving fast enough.
We battled this for years on all 3 cars. Every time you really got a corner fast a puff or whiff of burning oil. Tried everything.... spring retention and covering the the dipstick top with a sleve of rubber hose helped a little. It just sloshes out.
Finally converted the cars to locking dipsticks and no leaks at all.
Get one of these and set the level right.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Lokar/Lokar-Anchor-Tight-Locking-Flexible-Engine-Oil-Dipsticks/1123907/10002/-1
Don't run too little oil in the sump. Use an Accusump too.
Kevin
Mike, note on this: the GTS runs a breather catch can as standard so with the sealed dipstick vents via the can.
Kevin, did you fit a breather/catch can to all three cars which you had sealed dipsticks in?
Kel.
We battled this for years on all 3 cars. Every time you really got a corner fast a puff or whiff of burning oil. Tried everything.... spring retention and covering the the dipstick top with a sleve of rubber hose helped a little. It just sloshes out.
Finally converted the cars to locking dipsticks and no leaks at all.
Get one of these and set the level right.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Lokar/Lokar-Anchor-Tight-Locking-Flexible-Engine-Oil-Dipsticks/1123907/10002/-1
Don't run too little oil in the sump. Use an Accusump too.
Kevin
Mike, note on this: the GTS runs a breather catch can as standard so with the sealed dipstick vents via the can.
Kevin, did you fit a breather/catch can to all three cars which you had sealed dipsticks in?
Kel.
PanozDuke
05-07-2012, 07:29 AM
I decided to try a 6 1/2 quart refill with filter change and it aligned with a much lower mark on the stick after running it to circulate the oil. I believe I have the newer oil pan so that may help if I can get the level correct.
I have worked on the dip stick sealing and I think it is much improved. I've added a spring retainer and sealed the portion of the handle tube that was providing an avenue for the oil to travel up into the curved portion of the handle (where I drilled the hole for the spring to attach).
Mike
Sorry for the delay in this update. The 6 1/2 quart refill level, breather on oil fill tube and corrected dip stick seal as described above seems to have worked. The car developed a fuel pressure problem after about seven laps so it is possible I might not have a proper read on it. The first time the oil was coming out the dip stick tube it happened on the first lap out. Obviously it is greatly improved if not resolved.
Gary Jones (Augusta area) advised that oil level is critical and these Canton wet sump systems are marginal on higher grip/ higher RPM cars. He recommended an accumulator as minimum and a dry sump as the ultimate solution. He is in the process of dry-sumping Tom O'Calliham's GTRA with a 347 motor and you do have to relocate the sway bar. Not sure what else has to be done to fit that system, but it requires some work to get it in there. Wes Burton (Charlotte) is doing the work along with some trick front suspension stuff.
Wes did the suspension mods and set up for my son's GTRA and it was all great. He drives part time in the NASCAR truck series and has a shock/suspension business. He is a former Hendrick's employee. I visited his shop last week and he was building a ARCA type stock car for a Florida customer, replacing a front clip on another, setting up a customer's Craftsman series truck and doing set ups on three others as well as the Panoz work. We dropped off a Camaro Motorola Cup car for redesign of the brake and front suspension systems and set up. I've seen him work at Sebring and Watkins Glen and he is extremely sharp as well as a talented driver. I don't know that he is looking for more shop work, but I am sure he would be a great resource for shock rebuilds. Young, very talented guy. Likeable as well. I don't have his contact info, but I believe it can be found on the web or from Gary.
Thanks for all the great advise.
Mike
I have worked on the dip stick sealing and I think it is much improved. I've added a spring retainer and sealed the portion of the handle tube that was providing an avenue for the oil to travel up into the curved portion of the handle (where I drilled the hole for the spring to attach).
Mike
Sorry for the delay in this update. The 6 1/2 quart refill level, breather on oil fill tube and corrected dip stick seal as described above seems to have worked. The car developed a fuel pressure problem after about seven laps so it is possible I might not have a proper read on it. The first time the oil was coming out the dip stick tube it happened on the first lap out. Obviously it is greatly improved if not resolved.
Gary Jones (Augusta area) advised that oil level is critical and these Canton wet sump systems are marginal on higher grip/ higher RPM cars. He recommended an accumulator as minimum and a dry sump as the ultimate solution. He is in the process of dry-sumping Tom O'Calliham's GTRA with a 347 motor and you do have to relocate the sway bar. Not sure what else has to be done to fit that system, but it requires some work to get it in there. Wes Burton (Charlotte) is doing the work along with some trick front suspension stuff.
Wes did the suspension mods and set up for my son's GTRA and it was all great. He drives part time in the NASCAR truck series and has a shock/suspension business. He is a former Hendrick's employee. I visited his shop last week and he was building a ARCA type stock car for a Florida customer, replacing a front clip on another, setting up a customer's Craftsman series truck and doing set ups on three others as well as the Panoz work. We dropped off a Camaro Motorola Cup car for redesign of the brake and front suspension systems and set up. I've seen him work at Sebring and Watkins Glen and he is extremely sharp as well as a talented driver. I don't know that he is looking for more shop work, but I am sure he would be a great resource for shock rebuilds. Young, very talented guy. Likeable as well. I don't have his contact info, but I believe it can be found on the web or from Gary.
Thanks for all the great advise.
Mike
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2024