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flat paint + gloss clearcoat?


Constantino
01-25-2012, 04:47 PM
building my benz SLS, and for lack of options due to stuff being out of stock, I painted the body with tamiya XF56, metalic silver.

I assumed I could just put a gloss coat over it and all would be well... after 2 thin coats fo clear, the finish is rough to the touch, Im wondering if I will ever build up enough of a clear coat that I can then knock it back down and get a gloss from it?

My gloss finishes are never mirrors, thats an art Im still working on, but this is presumably rough because its matte undernieth, its not orange peel or anything, its just... rough. I thought about sanding the silver before clear, but wasnt sure what that would do to it.

Anyone ever tried this? am I wasting my clear coat paint in a futile effort?

ale-o
01-25-2012, 05:16 PM
1. NEVER sand metallic paints
2. From my experience it´s better that the base coat is matt so that the clearcoat can stick better to the surface.. so in your case it must be something wrong with the clear or your technique, because you should be able to get a normal gloss finish in the right circumstances.. Maybe you are spraying just from too far?

turbothirtytwo
01-25-2012, 05:27 PM
depends on what kind of clear u are using and what kind of aplication u choose. if u have 2k some nice wet coat over flat base shoud be ok, if u are using TS13 or super clear from spray can make som mist coats, sand it down to smooth surface and then wet coats, when u are using airbrush, learn to use it. this is rough explanation to your problem it depends on many factors

edit: wet coat and polishing is the key

kaho
01-25-2012, 06:48 PM
depends on what kind of clear u are using and what kind of aplication u choose. if u have 2k some nice wet coat over flat base shoud be ok, if u are using TS13 or super clear from spray can make som mist coats, sand it down to smooth surface and then wet coats, when u are using airbrush, learn to use it. this is rough explanation to your problem it depends on many factors

edit: wet coat and polishing is the key

A little unrelated to OP's problem, but from what you said about wet coats with 2K and mist coats with Tamiya, is 2K clear less violent to color base than the Tamiya spray cans?

Now a little more related to OP's problem. Since you painted your base with Tamiya XF-56 (Acrylic) I would be extra extra careful about any clear coat whether it is 2K or not. I have done 2K onto XF56 before and anything other than a sparse mist coat caused my XF56 to run away.

Constantino
01-25-2012, 07:43 PM
laid down a few more coats and hit it with some 1000grit, little too rough and I burned through on an edge, but overall, seems like its fixing it up. few more rounds and I do think it will get there.

I always struggle with sanding without burning through it. I have some 1500 and 2k, Ill put down a few more coats and try the 2k from here on.

ChillyB
01-25-2012, 10:15 PM
You might just be wasting your time. I once painted a model with a Tamiya TS flat paint (some gray that I cannot remember, perhaps TS 66 or 67) and thought I could just clear coat it with TS 13. I laid down coat after coat and the flat paint absorbed it all and never became anything close to a gloss finish.

I started that project over and used a glossier TS gray.

935k3
01-25-2012, 10:21 PM
Xf-56 is not a goid choice for body paint. I would strip it with ammonia or 91% alcohol. Prime it with a good primer like Plastikote or Duplicolor and use an automitive touch up paint from Duplicor or try the Rustolem lacquers that Autozone sell for touch up. Check Autozone, Advance Auto, Pep Boys etc. These paints are far better for painting bodies. If you have an airbrush you could use Testor's metallizers in the correct color with a clear coat, they very flat and smooth when sprayed at about 15 PSI. They have a finer metallic(and in scale)pigment.

Constantino
01-25-2012, 11:14 PM
I actually used my first jar of metalizer titanium on this for some dash parts.

thought about using it on the body but was not certain if I would have enough...

too impatient to order more :p

turbothirtytwo
01-26-2012, 02:36 AM
if u are sanding paint and specialy softer types its good to have at least 2500,3000,5000 grit sandpaper and always sand under water, offcourse beware sanding edges too much.

@kaho: yes 2k is less violent because it sticks mechanicaly not chemicaly to the surface, I have used lechler 2k and no problems with overspraying tamiya acrylics with heavy coats. now I am using Chemolak (Slovakian paint brand) uretahne clear and it seems more agressive but not that much I cant overspray acrylics. few mistcoats and patience should help always

stevenoble
01-26-2012, 10:11 AM
I wouldn't use XF-56 as a body paint. You'll never get a mirror finish with it no matter how much clear you apply or how much you polish it afterwards. It's just simply not a good choice as a body paint. All it will do is soak up your clear like a sponge and suck all the gloss out of it because it is very porous. That is why when you clear it it goes all rough to the touch. You're far better off with TS sprays or a basecoat automotive paint. A lot better option for bodywork painting..

ale-o
01-26-2012, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't use XF-56 as a body paint. You'll never get a mirror finish with it no matter how much clear you apply or how much you polish it afterwards. It's just simply not a good choice as a body paint. All it will do is soak up your clear like a sponge and suck all the gloss out of it because it is very porous. That is why when you clear it it goes all rough to the touch. You're far better off with TS sprays or a basecoat automotive paint. A lot better option for bodywork painting..

What the..:confused: Well i haven´t used xf-56 so far, but i clearcoated a few tamiya xf basecoats before and i can confirm that i always achived a normal, glossy finish and i don´t belive xf 56 would behave any differently, yet alone soak up the clear coat.. Although i have to say that i always used 2k urethane clear which may give better results on this kind of paint as the normal lacquer clear from the can :smile:

stevenoble
01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
What the..:confused: Well i haven´t used xf-56 so far, but i clearcoated a few tamiya xf basecoats before and i can confirm that i always achived a normal, glossy finish and i don´t belive xf 56 would behave any differently, yet alone soak up the clear coat.. Although i have to say that i always used 2k urethane clear which may give better results on this kind of paint as the normal lacquer clear from the can :smile:

But what do you class as a 'normal' glossy finish..?? Trust me there is much difference between a normal 'glossy' finish that you may achieve by clear coating over Tamiya XF acrylics, and a 'mirror like' finish that you can achieve with proper automotive base coats and 2k urethane. I am talking purely about painting body parts. Tamiya XF jars are old and out dated. Paint technology has seriously moved on since then. All the Tamiya XF metallics are seriously grainy and rough and they will soak up the clear coat significantly more than other paints...

ale-o
01-26-2012, 03:36 PM
This is the latest project of mine, where tamiya acrylics were used and clearcoated with 2k urethane.. It might not be the best example as the pic is a bit blurry but it clearly shows, for me atleast, a ¨normal¨ glossy finish..
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o239/orlach/100_5733.jpg

Constantino
01-26-2012, 07:38 PM
well I played with it a bit, and to an earlier comment, I was really unhappy with the "scale" of the metallic flake. from a distance and dim lighting, looked nice, up close under direct light, it looked "off".

since I burned through a spot on the hood, I figured, whatever. I stripped it and hit it with the titanium metallizer. I like the color, fits well.

however... after spraying, buffing, and then attempting to lay down a clear coat, I ran into another issue, that Ive had before. Id get spots in the clear coat, not orange peel, not roughness, but spots, like about 1-2mm in diameter, almost like there was oil in the paint... oddly I saw this effect before when I put polyurethane on a dresser I refinished(also sprayed, but with a different spray gun of course)

In that case, I thought maybe I got water drops in the oilbased poly.

but A. I use a moisture trap/filter on my airbrush setup. B. its a water based paint, so I wouldnt think that would cause such an effect anyway...

anyone ever seen anything like this? might hazard a guess to the cause so I can fix it?

ale-o
01-26-2012, 10:23 PM
Something like this, called fish eyes?
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o239/orlach/100_4579.jpg
It is caused by silicone/oil on the surface, in my case it was the compresor which have seemed to mix oil particles into the air but an air filter solved that problem. Anyway i am curious to what you mean by ¨spraying, buffing and clearcoating¨? You mean you have polished the paint before the clearcoat? Like i said in the post before, metallic paints must be left UNTOCHED before clearcoating, no sanding, no buffing.. You used model master titanium metallizer? I don´t know what color you are refering to as being water based but this one is lacquer as far i know.. what clearcoat did you used?
If you realy polished the surface as i asume, i guess the paste left some wax or something on the surface which than caused that effect..

Constantino
01-26-2012, 10:58 PM
Something like this, called fish eyes?
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o239/orlach/100_4579.jpg
It is caused by silicone/oil on the surface, in my case it was the compresor which have seemed to mix oil particles into the air but an air filter solved that problem. Anyway i am curious to what you mean by ¨spraying, buffing and clearcoating¨? You mean you have polished the paint before the clearcoat? Like i said in the post before, metallic paints must be left UNTOCHED before clearcoating, no sanding, no buffing.. You used model master titanium metallizer? I don´t know what color you are refering to as being water based but this one is lacquer as far i know.. what clearcoat did you used?
If you realy polished the surface as i asume, i guess the paste left some wax or something on the surface which than caused that effect..


thats exactly what I got... maybe my filter is not doing the job?

as for the paint, yeah, that might have been confusing. I redid the hood with the titanium metallisizer buffing paint, so I sprayed it, dried, "buffed" it with a clean rag, no polish or anything, just a dry rag, and to that point, it was all ok.

Next I sprayed it with the only clear I have, which is tamiya clear coat, thinned with tamiya thinner.

That is the coat where the "fish eyes" popped up. perhaps some of the laquer thinner was still in the airbrush? its possible I suppose, a flushed it through with a good bit of water, but maybe it was deficient. not sure if laquer thinner would cause that kind of problem with acrylic.

I think I need to step my paint game up, maybe the tamiya acrylics, despite their super simple use, is not doing me any favors.

stevenoble
01-27-2012, 10:12 AM
I think I need to step my paint game up, maybe the tamiya acrylics, despite their super simple use, is not doing me any favours.

Any paint is as easy to use as the next. Once it's mixed and in the airbrush ready to spray, it's as easy to apply one paint as it is another. Bear that in mind and you should find any paint 'super simple' to use..
As for those fish eyes. Buy yourself some panel wipe from an automotive paint store. It's a spirit based wipe that you apply and wipe off before you paint. It cleans the surface and removes any grease or residue before you spray, preventing those fish eyes..

935k3
01-27-2012, 10:53 PM
You might try and find some of this Smoothie Fisheye Eliminator. You can get it at paint supply shops. One drop or two in a jar works. It mixes with all paints.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/images/Product/medium/12967.gif

John18d
01-28-2012, 01:36 AM
constantino - ale-o is correct those are "fish-eyes" and they are caused by silicone contamination either in the painting apparatus - airbrush, air lines, compressor - or you had silicone on your fingers and or any polishing paste and deposited it there then. While "smoothie" fish-eye eliminator can reduce or minimize fish-eyes - there is no substitute for a clean surface and clean painting equipment. - Steve Noble is correct in that there is a solvent silicone wash prep that can be used to wipe down the surface before you paint and clear - John

Constantino
01-28-2012, 08:46 PM
I dont remember if I polished the model... I want to say no... but cant be positive, if I did it was with the tamiya polish. nothing else would have touched it.

Im using a lame 2g husky compressor, but it does have a filter on it...

if I could figure out where its coming from it would be so much easier to fix :p

John18d
01-29-2012, 12:41 AM
I dont remember if I polished the model... I want to say no... but cant be positive, if I did it was with the tamiya polish. nothing else would have touched it.

Im using a lame 2g husky compressor, but it does have a filter on it...

if I could figure out where its coming from it would be so much easier to fix :p


Constantino - many polishing creams contain silicone and waxes so the paste will "slide" on the surface of what you are using them on. There are products that remove "waxes" and "silicone" from any surface. I use a product called "Acryli-clean" by PPG - it is used to remove fingerprints which can also leave silicone from lotions and body oils behind. Also when I am preparing something for paint - first I wash it properly using a mild brush with "Tide" washing soap in a box" the cheap kind without any "phosphates" or fabric softner etc. It is also available at automotive paint shops because they use it too. One really small box will last forever. Anyhow I put a small amount in a plastic basin let it dissolve and then wash the object to be painted. When finished washing and rinsing with "distilled" water - I put on nitryl gloves and I dry the object with a cotton cloth, then I blow some air over it from the compressor - once air-dried - I primer it with Tamiya "fine white" primer - then when the primer is dried I apply the paint, then when finished the clear. If at anytime between the painting process and the appropriate drying times I suspect that the object was touched or contaminated I wipe it down with the "acryli-clean" and cheese cloth so it does not leave lint behind. When I touch a model that has been painted to apply decals I always wear nitryl gloves. In fact once washed and rinsed I always use nitryl gloves just so I do not contaminate the surface. Do not apply something like "acryli-clean" to any decals that have been applied - it with smear and destroy the decals as it it a "solvent". Also with respect to your air-brushing equipment - not only do I have a large air filter/ water trap / regulator on the tank - I also use a small inline moisture trap just before the connection to the airbrush to ensure that any moisture in the air supply is captured and not sprayed onto the painting surface. Hope this helps you understand what I do - also if you want PM me and I can go into more detail and maybe provide more insight for you. My system works for me and I have, "knock on wood", yet to have "fish-eyes" in my paint. - John

Constantino
01-29-2012, 03:59 PM
awesome info, I will have to put together a shopping list for a few things it looks like. I will also stop polishing between coats (I dont really do it intentionally... more like, I paint it, sand it, polish it, notice an imperfection and go back for another coat) Ill also keep my fingers off the paint :p

I used the same rag to "buff" the metallizer as I used for polishing, I need to improve my attention to detail about keeping things "sterile".

just put on the silver for the rest of the body, letting it dry and then keep going.

John18d
01-29-2012, 05:15 PM
Constantino - I think you've got the idea - it doesn't have to be "sterile" as in surgery, but it is very easy to "touch contaminate" imperfections in the form of silicone and amino acids from your fingers into your paint. Just from what you have described, I am almost 100% sure it came from the "polish" - it is okay to sand out imperfections in paint and lightly touch them up before clear-coating and that is a perfect time for something like "acryli-clean". When I do get a piece of dust or maybe a hair or lint off my clothes in the paint, I'll stop, let things dry, sand it out, clean the area with acryli-clean to remove any debris and after it has evaporated I will resume with the painting. If the imperfection is minor - I will complete the painting, let it dry, sand out, acryli-clean, and then touch up. I exclusively use 2K clears because of the ease of use and the fantastic results - and for that there is no need to "polish" the paint below it. Just a nice even coat with no flaws such as orange-peel, blushing, crazing - is all that is needed. I let the 2K do the work by bringing out the gloss and depth of the paint work. - John

Constantino
01-29-2012, 05:55 PM
is this the 2k clear you use?

http://www.amazon.com/Quart-SUPER-POLYURETHANE-CLEAR-PAINT/dp/B001CUHJWO/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1327877456&sr=8-16

I only have a relatively small apartment, when it came time to spray the metalizer I went out on the deck... but thats all I have available unfortunately. Im not sure it would be safe to use like that, no respirator for sure. at 50 bucks for a quart a respirator on top is getting pricey.

John18d
01-29-2012, 06:38 PM
Constantino - I am using "Zero" 2K which I bought from Hiroboy, but the link you sent is a similar product and will yield the same results. And YES if you choose to use this product you must wear a cartridge "industrial" respirator - the active ingredient in the 2K that makes it so "hard" is cyanoacrylate " also known as super glue. You do not want that in your respiratory tract. As for small apartment - I'm in a "studio" here in Tucson while I'm attending the University, when I spray I wear my respirator and I open the "front" door and spray in the direction of the open "rear" sliding door and it works like a cross-flow booth. After spraying I leave the doors open for about an hour until the odors are removed. I have a small fan powered extractor spray booth, but with no way to properly vent the fumes it's not really applicable here. As for the 2K at the amazon link you sent that price is cheap and a quart will last "forever" - the 2K "Zero" stuff from Hiroboy is very expensive when you consider the shipping costs. When my current supply is exhausted I'll switch to a USA brand like House of Colors or PPG "delthane" - John

John18d
01-29-2012, 06:39 PM
is this the 2k clear you use?

http://www.amazon.com/Quart-SUPER-POLYURETHANE-CLEAR-PAINT/dp/B001CUHJWO/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1327877456&sr=8-16

I only have a relatively small apartment, when it came time to spray the metalizer I went out on the deck... but thats all I have available unfortunately. Im not sure it would be safe to use like that, no respirator for sure. at 50 bucks for a quart a respirator on top is getting pricey.

"you can get a decent respirator at a place like "Home depot" or "Lowes" for about $25.00 - John

Also - Constantino - if you scroll down to the bottom of the page on the link for your 2K clear you will see that "others bought" area and the same product is there by the same seller for $42.99 instead of $52.99 - that's a $10.00 bill towards a respirator - John

I've purchased from TPC Global before and if you look through their store they have respirators too - John

Constantino
01-30-2012, 07:00 PM
Ill go with that on the next clear purchase, which will probably need to be for the next model since Im burning through it nicely on this one :p

changing directions but without wasting a new thread, metal transfer decals... clearcoat after them? specificly talking about the SLR logos on the back and the benz logo, I know normal decals you clear over, but metal transfer?

any "right" way?

John18d
01-30-2012, 11:50 PM
Constantino - with regards to metal decals - I do not clear them because I think the decals loses the "metal" appearance, but other people have done it and they say there is no difference??? I guess it's up to you - John

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