Our Community is 940,000 Strong. Join Us.


PRND321 Lights, Oil Level Light, Temp Gauge


ktmccrary
12-10-2010, 02:15 PM
This is a new thread as there are only 3 problems left to resolve on this 98 GTP 3800 SC HUD. These issues were last covered in a similar post last posted 12/2.

1. The Oil Level Indicator light comes on whenever the engine is running and the transmission is taken out of PARK. Precisely, the light is OFF in Park, 1, and 2, but is ON in R, N, D, and 3. I have replaced the Oil Level Sensor and thoroughly cleaned the connector at oil pan. PROBLEM PERSISTS.

2. The PRND321 Indicators on the I/P work as follows: In P and in 3 both, the indicator on the panel is "P". In all other gears, RND21, no indicators are lit on the panel.

3. The temperature gauge never moves off min, except when first turned on, at which time the needle moves to max and back to min over a period of about 1 second, then never moves off min while running. Scanner reveals engine does appear to operate at normal temperatures. Found that this is a 3-wire sensor, meaning the scanner and gauge get their signals from the exact same source via different wires. I concluded the output was bad for the gauge from the sensor and replaced the sensor. PROBLEM PERSISTS.

I replaced the instrument cluster to get at least 1 if not all problems resolved to no avail. ALL 3 PROBLEMS PERSIST.

I replaced both battery cables including satellite cables because I found that the battery wasn't anchored and at some point both the + and - parallel and both wires had gotten into the SC idler pulley. The wires were significantly compromised with a lot of green corrosion. Wiring replaced and solid grounding assured, ALL 3 ORIGINAL PROBLEMS PERSIST

Can anyone give me something specific to check to help find and verify the source of these problems? Any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated, as it seems these problems must all originate in the same place, or maybe not. Thanks

tblake
12-10-2010, 07:14 PM
This one almost sounds like a faulty ingnition switch/harness to me. I would be suprized if replacing the ignition harness does not cure at least one of the issues. Probably will fix all 3.

There is a write-up in the tips and maintenance forum on how to chang it out. I have never had to do one on my car so I can't help much. The process looks pretty straight forward though.

ktmccrary
12-11-2010, 05:51 PM
I was hoping the ignition harness would fix this because I've already had to change one on my 99GP, where it had different but multiple wierd problems that the harness did fix.

Well, this is the 5th major purchase of something that fixed nothing and I am getting distressed. Replacing the ignition harness, the instrument cluster, the oil pressure switch, the temp sensor, and the battery cables, and MY 3 PROBLEMS PERSIST.

Also, the dude that had this before just cut the wire connector off the oem stereo. I still have the stereo but not the connector and will be replacing the stereo anyway. But I cannot reconcile the wiring in my car with any wiring diagram, and in fact have a couple of extra wires I can't account for. I only mention this because it is entirely possible one or more of these wires may not go to the stereo.

I have positively identified BLK/WHT, DK BLU, LT BLU, ORG, BRN, YEL, BRN/WHT, GRY/BLK wires. I am left with a LT GRN, DK GRN, DK GRN, TAN, YEL, DK BLU, DK GRN, BLK, and GRY. The 1st 4 of the 9 left should be front speaker wires but I could get no ohm reading so I suspect both speakers are blown.

So here's what I have:
BLK/WHT GROUND VERIFIED
DK BLU RR + VERIFIED
LT BLU RR - VERIFIED
ORG BAT/MEM VERIFIED
BRN LR + VERIFIED
YEL LR - VERIFIED
BRN/WHT DIMMER VERIFIED
GRY/BLK LIGHTS ON VERIFIED
LT GRN SHOULD BE RF +
DK GRN SHOULD BE RF -
DK GRN SHOULD BE LF -
TAN SHOULD BE LF +
YEL SHOULD BE ACC/PWR ON - NO VOLTAGE PRESENT
DK BLU UNKNOWN
DK GRN UNKNOWN - 12V PRESENT WHEN IGN SW IS ON
GRY UNKNOWN
BLK UNKNOWN - This wire has a 1-pin connector and is
folded and taped to the wire harness in the back, not
with the other wires and also has 12v present with
ign sw on
There are also 3 wires on a separate connector I presume of to the
steering wheel controls. There is a LT GRN, DK GRN, and TAN wire there.

If anyone can help with this it would be great. Maybe one or more of these unknowns are responsible for the other problems. Thanks.

tblake
12-11-2010, 07:36 PM
So you have replaced the ignition switch and it still has the same issues? Thats odd. I will pull out my wiring diagrams and see what I can find for those wires.

Doesn't it just frustrate you with what some people do with wiring in their cars? A 5.00 wal-mart plug would have made aftermarket deck installation easier, plus the factory wires could have been left alone.

olopezm
12-11-2010, 08:18 PM
Hello,

I guess you must have the radio with amplifier version, try this diagram in case is not the same you have. As far as I've read it seems to be the right one according to the colors you have listed.

Best regards,

Oscar.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2060/radiowithamp.th.png (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/radiowithamp.png/)

tblake
12-11-2010, 08:54 PM
Good call Oscar. I never even thought of that. I wonder if any of those grounds or power circuits share the same circuit as the PRNDL indicator, oil level light or temp guage.

olopezm
12-11-2010, 09:30 PM
Thanks Tim!

There are no shared grounds however these DO share the power from the box at the right strut in the engine compartment. It is the orange wire and they splice at S202 in the diagram. Do you think this could be the cause?

Best regards,

Oscar.

tblake
12-11-2010, 09:50 PM
defenatly could be the cause.

tblake
12-11-2010, 09:54 PM
Pretty sweet looking prix in the garage! I wish mine looked that nice.

olopezm
12-11-2010, 10:29 PM
defenatly could be the cause.

I forgot to upload the instruments cluster diagram, hope it helps

Pretty sweet looking prix in the garage! I wish mine looked that nice.

Thanks again!, It's my daily driver and I try to do my best although it still needs some work specially with the paint and some dents. Last thursday the CEL went off after being on for a long time with an evap problem (I replaced everything but the canister). I guess I'll never know what was wrong LOL.

Yours is hot too specially being a GTP; I like the color, I've never seen that one here in Mexico.

Best regards,

Oscar.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2472/instcluster.th.png (http://img152.imageshack.us/i/instcluster.png/)

ktmccrary
12-11-2010, 10:53 PM
I will check those connections at the box tomorrow. This had a factory unit in it with no amp and there is no PINK wire in the harness. I am hung up on this DK GRN Data Link wire. What does it connect to on the radio? What is the black wire with a single pin connector behind the radio folded about 3 times and taped down at the back? If a blue wire is for the SWC's what is the multi-pin connector with only 3 wires in in for with a DK GRN, LT GRN, and TAN wire for?

Blue Bowtie
12-12-2010, 10:59 AM
Your scanner should have a display line for the selected gear range. If the scanner reports the correct range for each position, you can assume it's not the fault of the neutral safety/range selector switch or its wiring to the PCM. That may be helpful to know.

olopezm
12-12-2010, 11:32 AM
I will check those connections at the box tomorrow. This had a factory unit in it with no amp and there is no PINK wire in the harness. I am hung up on this DK GRN Data Link wire. What does it connect to on the radio? What is the black wire with a single pin connector behind the radio folded about 3 times and taped down at the back? If a blue wire is for the SWC's what is the multi-pin connector with only 3 wires in in for with a DK GRN, LT GRN, and TAN wire for?

How many pins does that connector has? That might be part of the instrument cluster!

In the second diagram I uploaded you can see a pink wire (power) for the PRND321 decoder. The multi pin connector you mention could be C2 in that same diagram, which could include the other unknown wires you found hanging loose.

Best regards,

Oscar.

olopezm
12-12-2010, 01:53 PM
Now I'm pretty sure that multi pin connector is where are your problems are coming from. I forgot to upload the second part of the instrument cluster (sorry about it) and from it it can be seen the TAN color is the OIL PRESS wire. Definitely the other guy mess the wiring big time!.

I bet once you put the loose wires in the multi-pin connector and plug it in all of your problems will be gone.

Best regards,

Oscar.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2963/instcluster2.th.png (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/instcluster2.png/)

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 02:22 PM
I took some pictures, but I need to figure out what size and resolution the site requires, and I think it will help. I have found other issues in this process. The connector with the 3 wires, LT GRN, TAN, and DK GRN, are on a 9-pin connector utilizing the middle 3 pins and it directly fits a seperate connector on the back of oem stereo. And it will not reach the instrument cluster.

There does seem to be a 3rd connector on the cluster for which there is no connector but it is probably a factory test connector, between the 2 functional connectors.

When I looked at the back of the fuse panel in the engine compartment I found 3 double splices. It appears that a small PNK is linked back to a small PNK. A GRN/WHT is linked back to a GRN/WHT, but a small BLK/WHT is linked back to a larger solid BLK wire on the block. I have clear pictures of this and will post shortly, after I figure out what to do.

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 02:26 PM
I have an actron scanner that checks many things but I cannot find anything related to what gear it is in. And I have had the switch off and apart (10 rivets). This switch is so well made with heavy contacts that it would take a tank to mess it up.

tblake
12-12-2010, 02:28 PM
If you can start your car in both Park and Neutral, and your backup lights come on, chances are your PRNDL switch is fine.

olopezm
12-12-2010, 02:54 PM
You can use an external site like the one I use (imageshack.us) for high resolution pictures. The forums image capabilities require you to use a lower resolution or smaller size (100KB) which is why I would recommend the external site.

From there you can copy the "Forum thumbnail" and paste it here.

Best regards,

Oscar.

olopezm
12-12-2010, 02:56 PM
By the way, the 9 pin connector you mention is the CD changer connector, as indicated in the first diagram.

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 04:13 PM
41218
The black 9-pin connector lying on the gearshift knob has a LT GRN, TAN, and DK GRN wires in the middle 3 pins and fits into the factory stereo head shown next:

41219

41220
Single pin connector BLK wire, 12v when ign sw is on. This appears to be factory taped to the wire bundle that bypasses directly behind the stereo head unit with 1-1/2" factory tape

41221
This is the main connector for the oem stereo from which the mating connector was cut and gone, leaving the following wires:

41223
So here's what I have:
BLK/WHT GROUND VERIFIED
DK BLU RR + VERIFIED
LT BLU RR - VERIFIED
ORG BAT/MEM VERIFIED
BRN LR + VERIFIED
YEL LR - VERIFIED
BRN/WHT DIMMER VERIFIED
GRY/BLK LIGHTS ON VERIFIED
LT GRN SHOULD BE RF + TENTATIVELY VERIFIED
DK GRN SHOULD BE RF - TENTATIVELY VERIFIED
GRY SHOULD BE LF - TENTATIVELY VERIFIED
TAN SHOULD BE LF + TENTATIVELY VERIFIED
YEL SHOULD BE ACC/PWR ON - NO VOLTAGE PRESENT- I STILL NEED TO TRACE THIS PROBLEM

DK BLU UNKNOWN - THIS MUST BE THE STEERING WHEEL CONTROLS, BUT WHERE DOES THIS GO ON AN AFTERMARKET UNIT
DK GRN UNKNOWN - 12V PRESENT WHEN IGN SW IS ON - MUST BE THE DATA LINK E&C DATALINE , BUT WHERE DOES THIS GO ON AN AFTERMARKET UNIT
DK GRN UNKNOWN - THIS MUST BE THE RADIO ON OUTPUT, BUT WHERE DOES THIS GO ON AN AFTERMARKET UNIT

LT GRN UNKNOWN - 1 OF 3 WIRES IN 9 PIN CONNECTOR - assumed to be cd changer
TAN UNKNOWN - 1 OF 3 WIRES IN 9 PIN CONNECTOR - assumed to be cd changer
DK GREEN UNKNOWN - 1 OF 3 WIRES IN 9 PIN CONNECTOR - assumed to be cd changer

BLK UNKNOWN - This wire has a 1-pin connector and is
folded and taped to the wire harness in the back, not
with the other wires and also has 12v present with
ign sw on


41222
This is the back of the instrument cluster while still hooked up. Since there is nothing in the dash that plugs into the center open connector I assume this is a factory test connector

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 04:40 PM
I agree on the CD changer connector. When I first printed the diagram, that portion was cut off. Other than that connector and it connecting to the stock radio/CD, there is no evidence anywhere I can find that there was ever a CD changer in there. Thanks for the help.

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 04:45 PM
41224
Here is a pic of the splices I mentioned earlier

41225
Here is a closer up pic of the stereo wires

olopezm
12-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Ok, all wires at the radio seem to be OK, you have the wires at C1,C2 and C3 on the diagram. The wires you have not identified are for the

steering wheel controls - DK BLU
E&C dataline - DK GREEN
RADIO ON - DK GREEN (this is a remote for the antenna amplifier)

C3 is the external CD changer connector as already mentioned. Since this was an optional feature your car definitely didn't come with it which is why you can't find any traces, YET you still have the harness like other GP's do (mine has the digital cluster on top of the radio harness which came standard in GTP's even when it came with the single cluster).

To test the speaker cables you can use a 1.5 volt AA battery, connect and disconnect it several times between each pair of wires and listen for a clicking noise coming form each speaker.

Is there any chance you could mention on which fuses are those splices installed?

I can't find any reference to the 1 pin cable, I'm still checking my diagrams and will report ASAP. I think it's strange since most power lines are orange...

The yellow wire without power needs to be traced back to the fuse box to find out if it's broken or not. Is there any chance the other guy replaced the yellow wire with the single black wire???

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-12-2010, 06:06 PM
Where can I find a diagram of the back side of the fuse block? Some of those wires don't go where they seem sometimes.

41226 It seems we have identified all the radio wiring, and the black live wire is in a connector and obviously wasn't used on the oem radio. So, I'm back to my original 3 problems. This drawing is 2 merged pages from my Haynes manual. There appears to be a common physical ground on both the transaxle switch and the Oil level switch. Can anyone tell me where to find this physical ground?

olopezm
12-13-2010, 01:34 PM
I've been checking diagrams and those splices at the back of the fuse block can't be OEM (they don't look like factory installed to me). I've never taken apart that in my GP but the manual doesn't shows any black wires turning into pink or similar...

You could try using a DMM to find the exact location of those splices in the fuse block.

My manual has a bit different diagrams, but that ground seems to be located at the lower left front of engine.

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-13-2010, 01:52 PM
I traced the 3 splices and they don't seem to be part of my problem. The BLK/WHT ties directly to the ground bus in the fuse block. The pink wire goes to the TCC fuse and the GRN/WHT wire goes to pin 86 on relay 14 the FP relay. There's no question that these ARE NOT factory splices.

The BLK/WHT wire coming off the oil level switch is open to ground. I jumpered this wire to ground and it didn't fix anything. In the diagram above I can't figure out the transaxle range switch. There are two connectors on it. One is a 4 pin with YEL, GRY, WHT, BLK/WHT (which I assume to be line 27) The other plug has several big wires and other wires on it including a BLK/WHT which is grounded, so even though it's in a different connector, I assume this is the wire coming of the right side of the switch in the diagram going up to that junction point.

olopezm
12-13-2010, 05:31 PM
Please keep everything related to the same problem in the same thread.

Did you inspect the ground from the TRS you asked before?

The ground to the oil level sensor is located at the lower left front of the engine and there is a splice which divides its path to the fuse box at the engine compartment (Engine Oil Pressure indicator Switch and MAF sensor grounds) and to the Engine Oil Level indicator Switch. The other ends) of the Oil Level Indicator (BROWN) and the Oil Pressure Indicator (TAN/BLK) go to the PCM in the air box.

Your idea on the TRS is correct, the colored wires are in one connector, the ground is in a different one.

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-14-2010, 11:06 AM
'I'm in the middle of NC and it got down to 10 degrees here last night and I am getting sick of working on this car. I cannot find ANY ground near the left bottm front of the engine. That area is ony 8 inches away from the oil level sensor. but the wires don't even go that way. There is a connector on the A/C compressor, and those wires are routed over and join with the oil level sensor wires, and the oil pressure sensor wires and the are sheathed together in a larger bundle of wires that go toward the PCM. The actual BLK/WHT oil level wire bypasses the PCM and goes through the bundle on top of the radiator, which it looks like I'm going to have to break open now to find the routing.

ktmccrary
12-14-2010, 03:22 PM
41228 41229 41230
The ground wire (BLK/WHT) wire from the oil level sensor goes into a harness that wraps over the transaxle, by the PCM, over the radiator, around the battery and into the engine bay fuse panel at wire D3 in the large black connector. Click on the first pic to see the wire highlighted in RED. The 2nd pic shows where this pin is from the top, again hightlighted in RED. The 3rd pic shows in RED the actual pin D3 this wire goes to in the block. THIS PIN IS NOT GROUNDED IN THE BLOCK, though is sits aside 3 other wires in the block that ARE grounded as highlighted in YELLOW in the 1st 2 pics below.
41231 41232 41233
The last picture above shows a larger BLACK wire in the middle to the left of the screw lug, not marked. This pin was physically removed from the block and the original BLK/WHT wire replaced by this short black wire and spliced twice, but it does go to ground in the block.
41234 41235 41236 41237
These last 4 pictures are of the mess that is my engine bay right now.

Does anyone know if this wire going to D3 could possibly have been moved and inserted in the wrong hole?

olopezm
12-14-2010, 07:41 PM
I'm sorry you're getting tired of it, I know the feeling something similar happened with my Town Car and I had to make a big mess, but trust me once you fix it you'll love the car and feel very confident you did your best effort and work it out!.

My diagram doesn't shows the oil level running into the fuse box, it only shows it splicing into the MAF and engine oil pressure switch OUTSIDE the fuse box. Check the attached image where 2 is Oil pressure switch,3 is the MAF and 4 is the Oil level switch.

I was out of town and just arrived home, I'll take a look at the pictures and see if I can find something., I'm a bit tired though...

Best regards,

Oscar.

olopezm
12-14-2010, 09:10 PM
Here you go; I've uploaded my diagrams. I hope these work for you.

Best regards,

Oscar.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6932/pdfimage04.th.png (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/pdfimage04.png/) http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/4272/pdfimage03.th.png (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/pdfimage03.png/) http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7855/pdfimage02.th.png (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/pdfimage02.png/) http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1995/pdfimage01.th.png (http://img502.imageshack.us/i/pdfimage01.png/)

ktmccrary
12-15-2010, 12:26 AM
Thanks for the schematics. The color is great; however, after studying the prints there are so many discrepancies that it doesn't seem to match what I have. But thank you so much for the effort. I am sure most of the print is applicable. One of the issues I have is the temperature sensor. Mine has a dual output (3-wire), but your print only shows a 2 wire sensor.

olopezm
12-15-2010, 10:16 AM
That's because the third wire is part of the instrument cluster, hence not pictured in the engine performance diagram.

Check posts #10 and 14, I had previously uploaded that diagram.

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-15-2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks, I didn't look as closely at those drawings as I did these last ones. If C2 is the large black rectangular connector in the engine fuse panel then I think we are getting somewhere. It is clearly evident that one of my spliced wires (the BLK/WHT) was removed from the connector, pin and all, and modified with a solid black wire and double spliced and put back in the box. It is not D# but D3 may be in the wrong place.

On your diagram D3 is the green wire for the temperature gauge, which is also not working. If these wires are mixed up in the block, it could lead me to all 3 problems. Thanks so much.... I'm still looking.

Do you have a reference to the 2, 3, and 4 digit numbers on the wires, like the 135 on the DK GRN line M wire?

ktmccrary
12-15-2010, 01:46 PM
It seems that the engine compartment fuse block my have come from a junkyard. It has a blue hand painted 4 digit number on the side of it and I have located a certain problem. Using your print I did find continuity between the green wire on the temp sensor and pin B3 on the C1 connector. From there it is suppose to go to D3 on the C2 connector..... IT DOESN'T. But D3 on C2 is Green and it does go to M on the instrument cluster. I ohmed this as well. So, the connection internal to the fuse block is incorrect. I went the other way and D3 on C2 has continuity with numerous wires in C1, but not B3. It connects to all the following in C1.... A1, A2, C1, D1, C3, B4, F5, C5, E6, F10, B10, D11, and D12. When I disconnect one of the instrument cluster connectors the only electrical connection between D3 on C2 and the C1 block is A1 on C1. And that goes to the low coolant sensor which also intermittently comes on. Apparently I'm reading thru lamps with the cluster connected.

I THINK SOMEONE PUT THE WRONG FUSE BLOCK IN THIS CAR WHICH WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR THIS CAR.

I've been looking for a fuse block for this car on ebay, and there don't seem to be any available for the year with a supercharger. From the auctions there seems to be a distinction between non and supercharged vehicles. There is a upc label with most of the numbers missing on my box, but is there a specific electrical check I can make to distinguish or prove that this is the wrong fuse box? Thanks!

OKAY!!! I am now concluding that I have the WRONG FUSE JUNCTION BLOCK.

Oscar, on the print you sent FIG. 32 near the bottom left there are 3 internal jumpers shown:
1) B3 on C1 to D3 on C2
2) C4 on C1 to D4 on C1
3) A1 on C1 to E3 on C2

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

On 1 above there is no connection between those two points, but D3 on C2 is the green wire that goes to M on the instrument cluster, AND B3 on C1 is the signal from the temp sensor. Conclusion: THIS IS WHY MY TEMP GAUGE READS MINIMUM ALL THE TIME.

On 2 above...... EASY. It is in the same block and this connection IS THERE.

On 3 above there is no connection between those two points, but both those points do have Yellow/BLK wires. There is an internal connection between A1 on C1 and D3 on C2.

FINAL CONCLUSION: Wrong Fuse Box Installed.

Now where can I find one? Please analyze my data and let me know if you agree with my conclusions. Thanks.

olopezm
12-15-2010, 08:26 PM
You're welcome anytime!, I'm glad you are making progress.


Do you have a reference to the 2, 3, and 4 digit numbers on the wires, like the 135 on the DK GRN line M wire?

I'm sorry I can't help here, the diagrams have no reference number for those wires, they are divided along pages 2 and 3. The small image I posted before was from page 2 near top right corner, the sensor symbols are on page 3.


I THINK SOMEONE PUT THE WRONG FUSE BLOCK IN THIS CAR WHICH WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR THIS CAR.


That might be the case, or maybe they "re-wired" the fuse box. People likes to make weird things to avoid spending money, but at what cost?. Just as an example the previous owner of my GP got welded the left trailing arm instead of replacing it; 6 years later I find myself driving at 40MPH and suddenly with a wobbling rear left tire, the good thing is that nothing bad happened! I was driving at 60 MPH on the highway under heavy traffic the night before... Thank god!


Oscar, on the print you sent FIG. 32 near the bottom left there are 3 internal jumpers shown:
1) B3 on C1 to D3 on C2
2) C4 on C1 to D4 on C1
3) A1 on C1 to E3 on C2


All 3 are correct; you are doing well!


On 1 above there is no connection between those two points, but D3 on C2 is the green wire that goes to M on the instrument cluster, AND B3 on C1 is the signal from the temp sensor. Conclusion: THIS IS WHY MY TEMP GAUGE READS MINIMUM ALL THE TIME.

On 2 above...... EASY. It is in the same block and this connection IS THERE.

On 3 above there is no connection between those two points, but both those points do have Yellow/BLK wires. There is an internal connection between A1 on C1 and D3 on C2.


1.- That's correct, you could try using a jumper wire and idle the engine to see if the temperature increases or you can ground the temp sensor and see if the indicator on the cluster goes all the way up after you have installed the jumper wire.

3.- Again you could use a jumper wire and see if something changes, at least it will give you a good indication but with all of your findings you are pretty sure what's the root of your problem. :)

My manual does not comes with a reference number for the junction block and to be honest I really don't know if there will be any difference between GT and GTP model. Here is a webpage to the most common part supplier I've seen in the forum:

http://www.moradpartscompany.com/

Maybe a more experienced user like Tim, Bob or Rich can comment on the fuse box...

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-16-2010, 03:10 PM
I couldn't find one on ebay, but I found a 97 Series II SC 5 miles from my home in the junkyard. I got it and the top decorative engine cover for $75.

4 POSITIVE FINDINGS BEFORE I INSTALL IT. It's sleeting right now.

1) B3 on C1 does internally connect to D3 on C2
2) A1 on C1 does internally connect to E3 on C2
3) The Blk/Wht wire at D3 on C1 DOES connect to the other neighboring grounds, unlike my present block (Oil Level Switch Grd).
4) Finally, from the pics of the relay panel I sent, no one noticed that mine had no relay 15. There aren't even't connections in the block on my original block for this relay.

I could test it right quick, but not for everything because I have one engine mount off right now. But with just electrical power alone I should be able to test the oil level switch problem and the PRNDL lights. I'll have to get it back together to test the temp gauge but I can definitely see that this problem is fixed from an electrical standpoint because I have traced all the wires.

I will give you an update when there's news. Thank you everyone for your help and especially Oscar.

41243

olopezm
12-16-2010, 03:41 PM
It's good to know you found what seems to be the right one.

You can test the temp gauge by grounding the connector, use a jumper wire between the instrument cluster wire and ground to see at least the needle going all the way to the top.

You're welcome anytime. I hope you get everything fixed with that new fuse box.

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-16-2010, 07:25 PM
All the PRND321 indicators work properly now. AND the Oil Level Light does not come on when put in gear. The surprise.... The temp gauge isn't working still.... but for some reason it has system voltage on it while running. It also does NOT self-test like it seemingly did before.

This system voltage is on pin M on the cluster harness that has the green temp gauge wire when the switch is on, but there is only millivolt power there on the connector itself when disconnected from the instrument cluster (my temp signal).

Now I have to figure out what is backfeeding this seemingly from the cluster itself.

BTW, I noticed another significant difference between the fuse panels. My old one has a 30A fuse in Fuse 39. The cover labels this simply as "AIR (30A)". The replacement neither has this fuse, nor are there electrical connectors for it, nor is there any reference to it on the cover. And in researching this, I cannot find this fuse 39 associated with a Grand Prix anywhere on the internet.

olopezm
12-16-2010, 09:02 PM
All the PRND321 indicators work properly now. AND the Oil Level Light does not come on when put in gear. The surprise.... The temp gauge isn't working still.... but for some reason it has system voltage on it while running. It also does NOT self-test like it seemingly did before.

Good work, 2 out of 3 after the first try is great!. That self-test thing was weird as other users pointed in your oldest thread.

This system voltage is on pin M on the cluster harness that has the green temp gauge wire when the switch is on, but there is only millivolt power there on the connector itself when disconnected from the instrument cluster (my temp signal).

Now I have to figure out what is backfeeding this seemingly from the cluster itself.

mV is way too small for that; that's got to be either system noise, bad wiring/connections or a bad ground somewhere(which is unlikely), do you have the same reading at B3 in the junction block?.


BTW, I noticed another significant difference between the fuse panels. My old one has a 30A fuse in Fuse 39. The cover labels this simply as "AIR (30A)". The replacement neither has this fuse, nor are there electrical connectors for it, nor is there any reference to it on the cover. And in researching this, I cannot find this fuse 39 associated with a Grand Prix anywhere on the internet.

That's another indicator of a WRONG box installed, I'm sorry I didn't post these images before. That relay #15 is used when there is a supercharger installed like yours. It controls the voltage to the fuel pump so the engine doesn't starves.

Fuse 39 does not exists in your model ;).

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-16-2010, 11:32 PM
mV is way too small for that; that's got to be either system noise, bad wiring/connections or a bad ground somewhere(which is unlikely), do you have the same reading at B3 in the junction block?.


This is an actual gauge output, not the idiot light. I measured the sensor output at the closest connector between GRN and BLK and got 147mV when it was up to operationg temperature. With only that connector disconnected I get 12v on the other side of the connector between GRN and ground. That same voltage is of course on B3 and on M on the Insturment cluster. When I disconnect that connector on the cluster the 12v goes away from M and from B3.

I cannot find a direct short to wire M on the cluster itself and any other contact on either connector. It seemingly only connects directly to the gauge. With the connectors connected, but not powered up, I cannot find a short to any other point either.

olopezm
12-17-2010, 03:09 PM
Is there any chance you got a bad ECT sensor out of the box?

Have you measured resistance at the ECT sensor just to make sure it's good?

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=41239&d=1292379335

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-17-2010, 08:09 PM
Oscar, I thought we had it, but noooooooooooo. I am getting the proper resistance reading between the yellow (PCM) wire and black, but it is infinite between the black and green (the cluster wire). I removed the sensor, checked it against the old sensor and the old one was the same. So I figured the wrong fuse panel may have caused both of them to fry, and I took the new sensor back to the store and got a replacement, and it reads the same way.

The yellow wire iS within the range on your chart. HELP!!! Can we start a new thread on this? The rest of this thread only pertains to someone who may be comtemplating changing their engine bay power center: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ONE.

olopezm
12-17-2010, 09:28 PM
Easy my friend don't panic! LOL

I don't think it's a good idea to start a new thread since the problem hasn't been solved entirely, other users won't find the answer to the problem here and the forum will get cluttered anyway; if you start a new one it will be the same symptom as here and besides whoever answers on the new thread will answer here too. Don't worry it will be fixed, trust me.

Now back to the problem. you mentioned you've replaced the sensor with a new one, the reading on the PCM side (yellow wire) is OK but the reading on the cluster side (green wire) shows an open circuit:

1.- You might have a problem with the connector itself on the sensor side. Make sure the female pin is tight and free of corrosion/debris, I would use some spark plug grease in order to make sure it makes contact. Another test would be to backprobe the sensor: insert a wire/paper clip at the back of the connector and take the readings there instead of reading at the junction block.

2.- If that fails... you've already checked the green wire for any cracks or chews, right?. If the wire has been stretched it could have been internally damaged but the cover might still look intact. Check continuity/resistance along the green wire from the sensor to the junction box. If it checks OK check continuity from the box to the instrument cluster connector. NOTE: the resistance value should be near 0.


It's more than clear this is not a ground problem since the yellow wire has the correct readings.

Best regards,

Oscar.

ktmccrary
12-17-2010, 11:45 PM
Well, can I take back my last post? I jumped then gun because I had only compared the the GRN to BLK, being relatively open, I didn't think this was the solution; however, I ohmed out every possible combination on both the original one I had taken out, and the NEW one I just returned the other new one for. When I compared ALL readings it convinced me to put the new one in and try it.... AND IT WORKS!!!

Thank you so much Oscar for all your help. I wasn't ready to start replacing things I had already done. But the I/C from the 99SE didn't work either, so I took your advice and here we are again. Obviously, the freakin fuse panel I replaced must've ruined both the old sensor and the new sensor.

Now for anyone that cares, here are the readings I got from both a bad and a new Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor:

98 GTP 3.8L SC HUD - 3-Pin ECT

Readings taken with sensors in hand at room temperature (70° F)
Meter reads max of 20MΩ , OPEN means > 20MΩ

B=BLACK Y=YELLOW G=GREEN C=SENSOR CASE


------------OLD (Bad)----------NEW
B---Y------ 2.27KΩ ----------- 2.08KΩ
B---G------ 3MΩ (Floating)----- OPEN
B---C------ 3.1MΩ (Floating)--- OPEN
Y---G------ 5.1MΩ------------- OPEN
Y---C------ 5.2MΩ------------- OPEN
G---C------ 88KΩ-------------- 2.34KΩ

the "bad" being that the sensor did not operate the gauge... the PCM input was fine

The GREEN to CASE readings convinced me to try the new one and it works!!!

THANK YOU FORUM!!! I have tons of smaller issues, but this one is for the books. You don't run into the wrong fuse panel on a running vehicle very often.

tblake
12-18-2010, 09:39 AM
Good Job.

And Oscar was the man with this one.

Sorry I couldn't help out more.

I just wonder where the old fuse block came from. Maybe a regal? or a 3100 W-Body.

olopezm
12-18-2010, 10:59 AM
That's great, I'm glad you're finally done with it!

I guess that was the first time we've heard of a wrong fuse block installed.

Probably no one will ever know where the old one came from...

Best regards,

Oscar.

Add your comment to this topic!