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700R4 => '77 Caprice Classic


black_funeral
11-28-2010, 12:41 AM
Is it possible to fit 700R4 into the '77 Caprice? There was TH350, as far as i know...
Thanks

silicon212
11-28-2010, 01:13 AM
Yes, it certainly can be done as the underside components are more or less interchangeable between 1977 and 1990. Just get the matching crossmember and driveshaft. Also, pay attention to the install of the TV cable.

black_funeral
11-28-2010, 02:13 AM
ok, i think i should find a driveshaft and the crossmember from a late 700R4 equipped Caprice:smile:

silicon212
11-28-2010, 02:32 PM
Also, make sure both cars have the same type of differential - i.e. 7.5" or 8.5". A driveshaft for an 8.5" is approx. 1" shorter than its 7.5" counterpart.

Blue Bowtie
11-28-2010, 05:02 PM
Some later B-cars had the frame punched in two locations to enable mounting either the TH700-R4 or TH200-4R with the same crossmember. That might be close enough to allow mounting the 700 in place of the 350.

I don't know if that started as early as 1977, but it might be worth a look at the frame to save you from buying an unncessary crossmember.

j cAT
11-28-2010, 08:07 PM
Is it possible to fit 700R4 into the '77 Caprice? There was TH350, as far as i know...
Thanks

I have owned and own these transmissions . the th35o lasted 380,ooomiles with no failures. the 700r4 however failed at 50,ooomiles. plastic crap inside very poorly designed , erratic shifting ..

silicon212
11-28-2010, 11:37 PM
I have owned and own these transmissions . the th35o lasted 380,ooomiles with no failures. the 700r4 however failed at 50,ooomiles. plastic crap inside very poorly designed , erratic shifting ..

You're doing something very, very wrong.

The trans in my car now went in back in 2006, and has been rode hard and put away wet for almost 100k miles.

I don't baby my car. That 700R4 is a beast, as long as it's properly assembled. Having said that, there were some problems with the early models but these issues (teething issues) were worked out by 1986 so any 1986+ version should be fine. In fact, the one in my car now is a 1986 version. These have the auxiliary valve body (which is really a drive pressure accumulator) to help prevent the "slam" going into gear that the earlier ones had.

I'm quite hard on transmissions, judging by the failures I've had over my driving life. I've had TH400s, TH350s, a 200R4 and the 700 now. I broke the sun shell in mine back in 2006 but since the replacement, it's been pretty bulletproof. Of all of the transmissions listed above, the current transmission is the longest lasting of all of them.

MagicRat
11-29-2010, 12:17 AM
^^Agreed.
My '83 Chevy van broke the sun shell at 85k miles, with just a 170 hp 305. This was a common failure for the earlier 700's. I replaced it with a wrecking-yard '91 700 R4..... much better!

j cAT
11-29-2010, 09:29 AM
[quote=silicon212;6839639]You're doing something very, very wrong.

The trans in my car now went in back in 2006, and has been rode hard and put away wet for almost 100k miles.

I don't baby my car. That 700R4 is a beast, as long as it's properly assembled. Having said that, there were some problems with the early models but these issues (teething issues) were worked out by 1986 so any 1986+ version should be fine. In fact, the one in my car now is a 1986 version. These have the auxiliary valve body (which is really a drive pressure accumulator) to help prevent the "slam" going into gear that the earlier ones had.
quote]

I did nothing wrong , this is the only transmission I owned in over 40yrs that has caused me problems.

your explaination stated here are the issues , I have with this 84 700r4 transmission.

Blue Bowtie
11-29-2010, 11:54 PM
I had a sun shell hub fail at 61K on my 2000 Astro. Another factory replacement failed at just over 90K (less than 30K later). I installed an aftermarket Trans Star "Beast" shell and sun gear and that was 50K ago. I also installed a hardened stator support, hardened pump vane guide to replace the cast factory pieces, and a five pinion planetary set. Factory parts aren't always the best.

If properly built, the 700/4L60 will take 500+HP/ft/lb at over 5,000RPM sustained for many miles. With some factory parts, 200HP is too much.

deesandvees
12-16-2010, 12:22 AM
You're doing something very, very wrong.

The trans in my car now went in back in 2006, and has been rode hard and put away wet for almost 100k miles.

Whatever you do, make sure your trani guy knows what the f*** he's doing. My trani guy boasted my trani would handle 400 lbs of torque and my 300 lbs did this:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o219/ernestmayhand/Caprice%20resto/_DSC0240-1.jpg

I heard it's this specific part is what should have been replaced with the newer hardened version when my trani was rebuilt, is that true? Word around town is ever since the son took over the family trani business he's been cutting corners. The shop got it's good name from the dad's service for many many years. I'm kicking myself at the bad luck that everybody tells me to go to this shop cause how great it is and then bam I get shafted (no pun intended if there is one to be intended in that nomenclature).

Blue Bowtie
12-17-2010, 11:31 PM
That's more of a hub than a shaft, so we'll let you slide on that one.

Yes, the planetary hubs should be inspected and replaced, along with the sun gear and shell, and probably the input shaft/shell assembly on a trans in a heavy car with better than 300HP/ft/lb.

I've thrashed on the trans in my '94 SS with 10" of rubber, a locker, and pushing 400 ft/lb for over 130K. Having said that, I'll likely twist something off as soon as the snow melts and it comes back out of storage. I've also eaten three sets of rear tires on my TA in less than 50K miles, and it uses the 700 as well. It's a lot lighter, but still locks up and bites on the 10" tires. If you build it right, it can survive quite a bit of torque throughput. It's not a 4L80, but can do pretty well.

j cAT
12-18-2010, 10:46 AM
I very much like how you rebulit this vehicle. this is almost perfect.

As you know, the "transmission ", that is in this is vehicle is my only dislike..

with all that torque and the heavy load , this transmission was never designed to handle..

to not use all that power for fear of tranny damage , it is a wasted effort.

deesandvees
12-18-2010, 06:41 PM
Is it possible to fit 700R4 into the '77 Caprice? There was TH350, as far as i know...
Thanks

I hope I'm not hijacking your thread, hopefully the discussion here opens up some options for you.
I think I would prefer a manual transmission in my Caprice, and if the 700r4 fails on me again I've thought that then would be the time to drop a manual in here. But I've only driven manuals in japanese cars (like my daily beater '93 Accord), so I'm not 100% sure I would like driving the big Caprice manually, I'm thinking ergonomically cause I'm not a huge dude by any means and am used to driving in the little japanese cockpit. Maybe I'm overthinking the whole issue, it's just I've never driven full size manual cars before. Wish I could go back in time and rethink my auto trans choice.
Any thoughts on a manual box Chev?

j cAT
12-18-2010, 09:52 PM
your 1977 caprice came most likely with the thm350 3speed tranny..the 700r4 came out in 1981....

the transmission to use would be the thm400 3speed . this was used in heavy duty applications where high torque and power is used. very strong and very sought after because of the great durability..

see if this is still available to fit with you vehicle.

the thm 350 is a great tranny but with your hp/torque I believe you need a stronger transmission.

my 1967 olds had the thm400.. that was the 400cu with 300plus hp...never had a failure !

the 4l80 is another possibility ..

Blue Bowtie
12-18-2010, 09:54 PM
Thoughts? Adapting a pedal rack might be interesting. Making room for a clutch master cylinder might also be a chore. I'd think a S-10 pedal setup might be easiest.

You would also want to save lots of cash for a manual. A T5 is out of the question for a 4,600 pound car, and a T56 probably wouldn't last long either. The "World Class" T56 might last a little longer, and it's nice to know that with that variety they can be returned for scrap anywhere in the world.

A ZF6 or non-OD manual might be the more economical choice, since a Muncie with a separate electric OD unit can be costly. The NV3500 is also an option, but gear ratio is all over the map depending upon application - Choose carefully.

j cAT
12-18-2010, 10:08 PM
Thoughts? Adapting a pedal rack might be interesting. Making room for a clutch master cylinder might also be a chore. I'd think a S-10 pedal setup might be easiest.

You would also want to save lots of cash for a manual. A T5 is out of the question for a 4,600 pound car, and a T56 probably wouldn't last long either. The "World Class" T56 might last a little longer, and it's nice to know that with that variety they can be returned for scrap anywhere in the world.

A ZF6 or non-OD manual might be the more economical choice, since a Muncie with a separate electric OD unit can be costly. The NV3500 is also an option, but gear ratio is all over the map depending upon application - Choose carefully.

these vehicles did not come with a manual option .....this would be a BIG problem ..especially to have it look correct..this would damage the vehicles looks...

as built these 1977 caprice sedans had about 3700lbs of weight. this was the year they made a smaller, lighter vehicle...and as the years passed these got lighter.

the wagon was 4100 lbs !

with the work done on this, it must be around 4000lbs..

black_funeral
01-15-2011, 12:46 PM
I hope I'm not hijacking your thread, hopefully the discussion here opens up some options for you.
I think I would prefer a manual transmission in my Caprice, and if the 700r4 fails on me again I've thought that then would be the time to drop a manual in here. But I've only driven manuals in japanese cars (like my daily beater '93 Accord), so I'm not 100% sure I would like driving the big Caprice manually, I'm thinking ergonomically cause I'm not a huge dude by any means and am used to driving in the little japanese cockpit. Maybe I'm overthinking the whole issue, it's just I've never driven full size manual cars before. Wish I could go back in time and rethink my auto trans choice.
Any thoughts on a manual box Chev?

my '77 Caprice has a manual transmission with stick-on-the-floor and 4 cylinder engine, from Soviet GAZ-24, i think... so, i have to put there a 305 small block (it'll need to be rebuilt at first) and some tranny, though i didnt bought it yet. back to basics)))

btw, was there a 8.5 differential or 7.5?

what was the bolt pattern? 5x4.75, am i right?

j cAT
01-15-2011, 01:21 PM
my '77 Caprice has a manual transmission with stick-on-the-floor and 4 cylinder engine, from Soviet GAZ-24, i think... so, i have to put there a 305 small block (it'll need to be rebuilt at first) and some tranny, though i didnt bought it yet. back to basics)))

btw, was there a 8.5 differential or 7.5?

what was the bolt pattern? 5x4.75, am i right?


you will need a saginaw 4 speed type 11 transmission..this was used with 60-70's high hp apps..will fit to 305 engine.

see what thes people say about getting one ..also what you may need to do to get it to fit /mount etc..http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/saginaw_4_speeds_overhaul_kit.html

black_funeral
01-15-2011, 01:34 PM
you will need a saginaw 4 speed type 11 transmission..this was used with 60-70's high hp apps..will fit to 305 engine.

see what thes people say about getting one ..also what you may need to do to get it to fit /mount etc..http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/saginaw_4_speeds_overhaul_kit.html

no, thanks... i'll try to buy 700R4 or TH350. manual transmission is not the best choice for this car, IMHO;) the previous owner of my Caprice did a scary things with it and i'll be working hard to restore it...

j cAT
01-15-2011, 01:57 PM
no, thanks... i'll try to buy 700R4 or TH350. manual transmission is not the best choice for this car, IMHO;) the previous owner of my Caprice did a scary things with it and i'll be working hard to restore it...

my understanding was your replacing the manual with another that would fit to the 305 engine...

as you have read here the 77caprice came with the thm 350 tranny..this is a stronger transmission and was made to fit your vehicle..

with what was done to your 77 caprice you may need a lot of frame/metal and interior work components to complete all this..radiator , fluid coolant lines,cables etc..

black_funeral
01-29-2011, 01:09 AM
i found a TH350 tranny from Chevy P30, will it fit to my vehicle?

j cAT
01-29-2011, 10:10 AM
i found a TH350 tranny from Chevy P30, will it fit to my vehicle?


this is the transmission that was used in this vehicle. 700r4 did not exist in 1977.....

black_funeral
01-29-2011, 11:20 AM
this is the transmission that was used in this vehicle. 700r4 did not exist in 1977.....

so, that TH350 from Chevy Van must fit perfectly? my friend told that it has a slightly different body or something else...

j cAT
01-29-2011, 05:25 PM
so, that TH350 from Chevy Van must fit perfectly? my friend told that it has a slightly different body or something else...

what do you or your friend mean . th350 is all the same..

sure a 700r4 is different. your 77 caprice should be set up for this th350 with the 305 cu engine.

must be the something else !

I don't see how a th350 in a van would be any different than a th350 A truck or car..th350 is an old transmission , the th400 th350 should all fit ! the 305 cu to the transmission should be no problem , unless it was altered to handle some other transmission.

the 4l60 / e etc..comes with many different versions to operate correctly with the different transmission controls etc...that is a transmission you must specify what year..

silicon212
01-29-2011, 10:02 PM
what do you or your friend mean . th350 is all the same..

sure a 700r4 is different. your 77 caprice should be set up for this th350 with the 305 cu engine.

must be the something else !

I don't see how a th350 in a van would be any different than a th350 A truck or car..th350 is an old transmission , the th400 th350 should all fit ! the 305 cu to the transmission should be no problem , unless it was altered to handle some other transmission.

the 4l60 / e etc..comes with many different versions to operate correctly with the different transmission controls etc...that is a transmission you must specify what year..

Boy, you're really up on it!

The TH350 comes in different tailshaft lengths. The Caprice variety from '77-end uses the 6" tailshaft, the van will use a 9" tailshaft unless somehow it's 4WD; in which case there's a transfer case bolted to the back of the case.

All TH700R4/4L60 comes with one standard length tailshaft for 2WD applications. The overall length is about 1" more than a 6" tailshaft TH350, and there are driveshafts available for this. There's no driveshaft available for a 9" tailshaft TH350 in these model years.

A 4L60/TH700R4 uses a TV cable, the TH350 uses a detent cable and a vacuum modulator. The TV cable on the 4L60 uses the same brackets the detent cable on a TH350 uses, yet the 4L60 needs no vacuum line, unlike the 350. Plus, in this day and age of climbing fuel prices, the TH700R4 makes more sense, not the TH350 just because those years came with them.

I'm not knocking the TH350, it's a dutiful transmission which served me well for many years. The TH700R4/4L60 is just simply a better transmission in this age.

It's obvious you don't know as much about this stuff as you might think you do.

j cAT
01-30-2011, 01:50 PM
tail shaft length is small potatoes , when tweaking an old vehicle ..

that caprice was made for that th350 transmission ..he obviously must gather the proper parts for install...

not totally changing the support members to accept some other transmission that was not intended to be installed in this 1977.

I'm sure this tail shaft would be not a problem to find.

he is also going to need a drive shaft I bet !

Blue Bowtie
01-30-2011, 03:00 PM
...he is also going to need a drive shaft I bet !

I'll also bet it will need a driveshaft. I'm also thinking he might be able to use the original one with no modification.

black_funeral
04-11-2011, 12:01 PM
i have bought the TH400 tranny, there was no 700R4's. a TH400 is a bit longer than TH350 and transmission mounts not matching each other. i think i have to shorten the driveshaft and replace the crossmember several inches backward.
btw, do i need to get a 168-tooth flexplate for it or 153-tooth will fit?

silicon212
04-11-2011, 02:54 PM
i have bought the TH400 tranny, there was no 700R4's. a TH400 is a bit longer than TH350 and transmission mounts not matching each other. i think i have to shorten the driveshaft and replace the crossmember several inches backward.
btw, do i need to get a 168-tooth flexplate for it or 153-tooth will fit?

The 153 tooth will fit fine. You will need a different yoke on a shortened driveshaft, as the TH400 uses a larger size output shaft. You might be able to reuse the crossmember you have, if there are additional holes drilled in the frame (which there might be).

A 4-cylinder out of a Volga? Wow that thing must have run like a raped ape! <sarcasm>

black_funeral
04-11-2011, 06:49 PM
The 153 tooth will fit fine. You will need a different yoke on a shortened driveshaft, as the TH400 uses a larger size output shaft. You might be able to reuse the crossmember you have, if there are additional holes drilled in the frame (which there might be).

A 4-cylinder out of a Volga? Wow that thing must have run like a raped ape! <sarcasm>
the previous owner was crazy... sometimes i want to kill him with bare hands:devilsign: it'll be not easy to restore this car)

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