2000 Windstar- Engine/accessory squeak

Hi everyone.
New member here.

As mentioned,I have a 2000 Windstar, 3.8L V-6. It recently developed a squeak that 1st I thought was the fixed accesory idler..Nope. Then I was 99% sure it was the waterpump..I did my research here,and with some blood,sweat and tears..managed to get that replaced. Went with a re-man water pump. Now after all that,the dang squeak is still there!

What could it be? I checked the tension idler..seems OK,as are the AC compressor,and the PS pump. Seems like it's coming from behind the waterpump? That possible?

Now before I get the rest of the cowl back in,I'm hoping for some ideas.
Appreciate any feedback

Frank.

Very Possible ... and probable!

Search for "synchronizer" and/or "cam position sensor".

(Did you ask before? I don't recall.) Oops! I see its your first post.

BTW ... Welcome to the forum!

Appreciate the welcome.

So that part,the synconizer,sits there by that small metal water pump line,atop..I guess you'd call it the water pump body?. I recall disconnecting the line from it when I did the waterpump job.

So just remove the cap,and run a bit of oil down there. Maybe some grease with a needle?

I mean,it's already an occasional chirpy squeak..might it need replacement?

If I was to replace it,does the new one have to go in a certain way?

TIA~

OK,
Found this thread regarding replacement.

http://http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=909315&highlight=synchronizer

Unfortunately,I have no experience with any kind of timing related issues. I think I'll just try and get a couple drops of oil down there for now,and maybe grab a new to keep around for the future..just in case.

Good plan. If you use clean motor oil ... and let it sit overnight ... enough oil may slide down the assembly to stop the squeak. Good luck!

I recommend the following to determine if it is something driven by the serpentine belt.....or something else......like the syncronizer......
This is a TEMPORARY test......only run the motor for just long enough to quickly check to see if the noise is still there........
Remove the serpentine belt, start motor......noise still there?.....then it is not on the belt......
Noise gone?.....most likely something driven by the belt.......you still have the tensioner pulley.......A/C compressor and water pump (last resort).

I now know I should have tried that trick BEFORE already changing the fixed idler,and water pump...lol.

Still a good idea,to make sure it's NOT something else on the accessory drive.

I haven't replaced a timing belt on my windstar, but almost every timing belt I've EVER replaced has a tensioner pulley. My Kia had almost this exact problem and it turned out to be the timing belt tensioner. When you replaced the water pump, did you get a new timing belt or tensioner? The location would be in very close proximity to your waterpump and would be behind it.

Mark

Mark -

Not on a Windstar 3.8 - which uses a timing chain...

Hi new here I have a 2000 ford windstar 3.8. there is a pin that has come off on the side of the motor that moves a lever on the eng. does any one know what this is? near the alternator.
Thanks Rusty

customtileus,
can you post a picture of lever?

customtileus,

Welcome to the Windstar forum, great place.

Look at these threads:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=764861
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1038194

Also it's usually good to start a new thread when having a new topic - since this has not to do with a Engine/accessory squeak

Cheers

Mark -

Not on a Windstar 3.8 - which uses a timing chain...

I'm an idiot...I'll bow out into the corner now. :) I own both a '95 and '00 Windstar that I've done TONS of maintenance and I've never actually determined that it had a belt or a chain. Sorry.

Mark

Mark,

Someone who has done tons of maintenance on a '95 and '00 Windstar is no idiot.

Take your bow but stay on stage, we need you here!

Cheers,

Mark -

...and keeping up with such things when there are multiple vehicles in a household is a pain. If you're consistent enough to use this forum as a resource to keep your vehicles in shape, you're doing fine!

It only jumped out at me because I currently have three vehicles - and no timing belts! I have changed a few timing belts in the past; I appreciate missing out on the particular maintenance chore at the moment.

Hi Mark. You're in the right place..lol.

Finally got around to oiling that synchronizer the other night.

Took a 5cc syringe,and a 2"x16 ga needle,put a slight bend in the needle,and nipped off the sharp tip. Set it down in there,and gave it a couple drops of engine oil. Let it sit over night,and gave it a couple more drops next morning. Put it back together,fired it up..and it's squeak free.

On one hand,I'm glad the squeak was finally diagnosed. On the other,I'm more than a little pizzed that I replaced the waterpump believing that was the problem...:shakehead
My stethescope isolated the squeak..right there in the waterpump area..unfortunately,it was just BEHIND the WP,and not the WP.:disappoin

Such are the trials and tribulations of a back yard mechanic.

So now,I apparently have to oil that syncronizer with some kind of regularity?
When would be a good time to replace it? 250,000 kms on it. (155,000 mi)

F.

Congrats on fixing your problem. Don't feel too badly about replacing the water pump....it would have failed eventually anyway, and think of the skill set you have developed!!

Who knows how often to oil? I would guess if you did it annually .... every 10k miles or so... you would stay away from excessive wear or squeaking. You should never have to replace the thing if it stays lubricated.

I have an old one that I have considered installing a grease fitting in just for fun!

Congrats on fixing your problem. Don't feel too badly about replacing the water pump....it would have failed eventually anyway, and think of the skill set you have developed!!

Who knows how often to oil? I would guess if you did it annually .... every 10k miles or so... you would stay away from excessive wear or squeaking. You should never have to replace the thing if it stays lubricated.

I have an old one that I have considered installing a grease fitting in just for fun!

How true..lol. I didn't think I could even do that WP replacement,but once I wrapped my head around the concept,it was not TOO terrible.:smooch:

I'd be very happy,if I only had to lube that baby once a year. I can certainly live with that.

BTW, there was mention of a tool to set the synchronzer. Does anyone have a picture of one?

Thanks again.
F.

This should cover your needs:

http://www.tradervar.com/6489.pdf

Be sure to get the exact one needed for your engine.

You know, I thought my synchronizer was going out for a while... tried some lubricant on the shaft, and it did quiet down for a while, but then it came back. Finally decided to replace the cap on it, and it went away for good. Cheap and easy alternative to replacing the whole synchro if it works for you.

Just wondering how changing the cap would help the squeak?
Isn't the source of the squeak down in a bushing (or bearing) on the shaft of the synchronizer?

Just wondering how changing the cap would help the squeak?
Isn't the source of the squeak down in a bushing (or bearing) on the shaft of the synchronizer?
Didn't make much sense to me either. Maybe it was a different problem.. I guess it was more of a chatter than a squeak, and the motor bucked when it did it.

I suspect the sensor is a magnet wrapped in a coil ... which is tugged on and "excited" each time the wand passes by. Could it be that the tugging eventually breaks the plastic body, or the potting material that is supposed to hold the sensor rigid? Just wondering.

I suspect the sensor is a magnet wrapped in a coil ... which is tugged on and "excited" each time the wand passes by. Could it be that the tugging eventually breaks the plastic body, or the potting material that is supposed to hold the sensor rigid? Just wondering.
Or heat. That was kind of my theory.

Well,
After a couple weeks,the synchronizer is squeaking again. Mainly when the engine is cold. So it appears we need a replacement.

I'd hate to have the thing fail out on the road,and end up broke down.

Its hard to get enough oil down that shaft ... while the synchronizer remains mounted in the front cover... to do a lot of good. The things just not vertical, but leans at an angle. Best to remove and oil, while upright, on the work bench. Letting it sit overnight. Next day you will feel that the shaft rotates much more freely. But this all requires a lot of work and the timing tool.

You can do a fair job of lubrication while synchro is installed ... but it still needs to sit overnight allowing the oil to creep downward. Remove the cam pos sensor, put the mounting screws back in place several turns ... and fill the wand area with motor or gear oil. Next day mop out the excess ... you don't have to be too thorough, it ain't gonna hurt anything. This should do pretty well.

If your synchronizer has really become a bad screacher ... you will definitely have to remove it. Now the tool is definitely needed. A new synchro could be needed. Or, you could disassemble the old synchro and polish the shaft with fine sandpaper (it will be scored) and reassemble with lubrication. This will work if the thing isn't too damaged.

OK,I've had the new part sitting here for a couple weeks,finally got around to replacing it yesterday.

So I removed the cowl. Had to unbolt the power steering pump,and pull it over to the side. Had to drain some coolant,and pull that steel coolant line out of the top of the waterpump,as it sits over top of the synchronizer. I replaced that line about a year ago,so it wasn't too bad. If it's never been replaced..it's a bear.
The new syncronizer came with a cap that locks the timing in place. I had to remove the front right wheel so I could turn the crankshaft to get the syncronizer in the proper position, so I could get the cap on,and mark the location.
Got the old one out, exchanged the length of hex shaft on the end and replaced the new synchronizer.
Let the sealant for the coolant tube set overnight,and started up this morning..no more squeak.

Thanks for the help guys.

Frank

I agree with Waxhaw, Mark ... stick around.

Some manufacurers have had problems with cam chain design, but the 3.8 has a pretty rugged set-up. My chain should no wear at 216 kmiles when I did a light engine overhaul. I did replace the tensioner and guides while in there.

Once the engine designers select a chain over a belt... they then have to provide a cover to contain the oil. Next comes the water pump ... where is it to be mounted? If on the chain cover, how will the coolant be ported? Most designers select passages thru the cover ... big mistake in my opinion, for now a leaking gasket can let coolant into the crankcase. Not good. This is a weakness of the 3.8 ... the front cover gaskets tend to fail ... and are difficult to replace "in car".

The synchronizer is poorly thought out also. Dry of lubricant ... it could have really used a grease fitting!

As one whose Windstar has 130K miles - and an as-yet-untouched synchronizer - did anyone take any pictures of this project? Just so I can get a better idea what's really going on underneath what I can see.

Thanks in advance for anyone who has pics to share!

I agree with Waxhaw, Mark ... stick around.

Some manufacurers have had problems with cam chain design, but the 3.8 has a pretty rugged set-up. My chain should no wear at 216 kmiles when I did a light engine overhaul. I did replace the tensioner and guides while in there.

Once the engine designers select a chain over a belt... they then have to provide a cover to contain the oil. Next comes the water pump ... where is it to be mounted? If on the chain cover, how will the coolant be ported? Most designers select passages thru the cover ... big mistake in my opinion, for now a leaking gasket can let coolant into the crankcase. Not good. This is a weakness of the 3.8 ... the front cover gaskets tend to fail ... and are difficult to replace "in car".

The synchronizer is poorly thought out also. Dry of lubricant ... it could have really used a grease fitting!


I agree that synchronizer should have a grease fitting in there. It wouldn't be hard to do.
When I removed the old one,it was very tight. Surprisingly tight. I'm sure it would have failed soon enough.


I hope I don't have to get to that stage..replace the timing chain cover gasket..
But now my lastest dilemma is the rear axle. As per our recall notice, they found a hole in the rear axle. Now the fun starts..wait for the replacement,or consider the buyout. I like my 09 F150 (so far), but regarding a replacement for the Windstar, we don't really care for the Flex, Escape or Edge. :confused:

Phil,I found a very helpful video on Youtube showing how they replaced a Synchronizer on a 3.8 Taurus. Not totally the same,but you get the idea.

Frank

I am guessing that once you hear the squeaking.....that you have wear.
At that point you will be lucky to be able to solve the problem by lubrication as there has been some scoring.
As for when to replace the Synchro?......my '96 had over 229K miles on it when I sold it......and it still had the original......and I had not done anything to lubricate it.
I am wondering if the fact that I had a very clean internal motor (no sludge, varnish, etc) as far as I could see......was a factor in my syncro not causing me any problem?

As for the front cover gasket......FORD used a very poor material for the gasket for the front cover, once that gasket was replaced with a gasket that was made of better material......the problem would not come up again.

My Toyota Sienna (2003) has a timing belt, and I had the job done for me......as it was more than I wanted to try to do.
It is a every 90K mile job.
A timing belt is quieter than a timing chain.
Toyota did, in much more recent years, put a timing chain in there, and added some more sound insulation in the engine compartment.
The Sienna may have improvements (and a reputation for better reliablility) over my old windstar, but there are some things that were better on the windstar.

Update.

As I previously wrote, they found a hole in the rear axle. Ford them offered me a buyout of $4Gs on our 2000 w/260,000 kms.
I wasn't really ready for this,but the offer was too good to pass up. The WS has been giving me a lot of grief lately. Also the original tranny was starting to give me a whirring sound. Also the subframe issue..
We signed the papers back in mid Dec,and we still have use of the rental until our payment arrives. Although I do see our Ol Windstar is gone from the lot it was sitting in.
As for a replacement...not 100% sure yet..as we just bought a new 09 F150 last year, so I think we're going to look for a good used mid sized SUV.
Thanks for all the help keeping the WS going.

Frank