Power Steering (and more?) HELP!!

I really, really hate to be posting this...but...here goes!

First things first: 1997 Grand Prix regular 3800 engine (fairly certain anyway; it's sitting in front of a gas station right now so I can't go look :crying:)..anyway...

I had power steering noises (for a while now...I know). To really just cut to the chase; stopped on my daughter on Friday night, jumped, battery would not hold a charge...went to check it out with my neighbor last night and when we opened the hood, the serpentine belt was off the system (not sure what the "systems" proper name is...pulley system?) and one of the gears (one of the things the belt rotates on (over?) was loose (in fact, he took it out with no problem).

I know it's not the alternator gear, I know it's not the engine gear??? I am fairly certain it is the power steering gear...(been trying to find a picture and cannot)...it's one of the gears that is grooved (they all are not - I think there were two gears that are grooved, one smaller and one bigger....the loose one is the larger of the two...does that help?)

This is why I am here, yet again, you all are so very knowledgeable and I need help bad!

My thing is I always want to know what I am looking at and talking about when I go to shops (I am in no way a DIYer when it comes to car repairs), but at least I can be knowledgeable when I walk in!

1. What is (or could be) the problem?
2. What's the best case scenario? i.e. problem, cost, etc.
3. What's the worst case scenario? same as above.

Any help, pictures if you need more info (I have none right now...if someone just has a picture of what I am talking about I can point the parts out)

I appreciate it in advance!

Thanks,

Tina

I found a diagram that looks very much like my set-up (fairly sure anyway - hope this shows up!) And if so, it is the power steering gear (is that the right word?) that is loose. Does this help any?

http://www.tinatheva.com/blog/Pontiac_Grand_Prix.gif

It's difficult to know exactly what's wrong with any certainty, but based on your description, I'll give it a try.

First, any wheel driven by a belt is a pulley. So all references will now be pulleys.

You stated that the power steering had been making noise. I'd ask if you had checked the power steering fluid level, but on the 3800, it's way down on the back side of the engine and very difficult to access, so I'll assume you did not. Odds are that the pump may have been very low on fluid and may have frozen up. If your neighbor was able to reach in and take the pulley off, the pump needs to be replaced. Pulley too. And the belt is probably gone also. Auto Zone prices are; Pump $80, Pulley $20, Belt $30. Depending on the shop's labor rate, I'd say your looking at another $150-200 for labor. There may be a charge for power steering fluid too.

That's your best case scenario.

Other possibilities are that the belt tensioner failed. That's an $80 part, more labor and antifreeze.

Your battery not charging is probably due to the belt not turning the alternator pulley, so you should be OK in that area.

The tensioner pulley may have failed. It's a $15 part.

You didn't mention any overheating. If the belt failed, the temperature gauge should have gotten above normal. So I'll assume the water pump is OK.

This is all speculation. I can't tell exactly without seeing it. Good luck and I hope it is a low cost repair.

Thanks gonesouth!

So, in your opinion (without seeing an actual picture of things) is, best case scenario about $280 to $330...WOW! That hurts!

You're right, I kept wanting to add fluid. but never did (those darn long funnels...never went and bought one...have the fluid here though..:frown:)

I am about to have it towed to a shop so this is very timely.

I think I am going to meet the tow truck there and take a picture and post it here.

1. Could you tell from a pic if all that is wrong?
2. Is there a possibility that some of it did not happen? OR
3. Does all that stuff "always" happen at the same time?

Thanks again!

Tina

1. Could you tell from a pic if all that is wrong?
2. Is there a possibility that some of it did not happen? OR
3. Does all that stuff "always" happen at the same time?

Thanks again!

Tina[/quote]

1. I won't be able to tell 100%, but it will help. Include pictures of the pulley that came off, the belt and a picture of the engine. The engine picture would be best if it was taken by you standing by the passenger side front tire.

2. Yes, most likely it's only the pump, pulley and belt. But I can't be positive.

3. Usually, it does not all happen at once. I just presented some scenarios that could be a problem, just to prepare you for the very worst case.

Accessing the power steering pump reservoir is a real pain on the 3800. And it does require a long, very thin funnel. I have changed my pump on my Bonneville, and actually, it wasn't that bad of a job. Hopefully, yours won't be too bad either.

Thanks again gonesouth!

My daughter (OMG) had used up my memory on my phone w/pictures of nothing! But I managed to save 1 of the engine and the general area the pulley is in so here goes:

This one shows the engine:
http://www.tinatheva.com/blog/1997_GP_ENGINE.jpg



This shows the general area where the loose pulley is located: NOTE - I tried to pull the pulley all the way out and it would not come out all the way, but it is definitely loose. Not sure if it would not come out because the space was too tight or if something was holding it in the part. From further observation, it is definitely the larger pulley with grooves in it. Underneath and a little toward the back of the car in relationship to that part with holes?? in it (white with the small grooved pulley sticking out). You can see the smooth pulley there too; the "one" is lower and in back of that smooth one too.

http://www.tinatheva.com/blog/1997_GP_ENGINE2.jpg


Here is a picture of the whole belt that is off:

http://www.tinatheva.com/blog/1997_GP_Belt.jpg


Close-up of the same belt:

http://www.tinatheva.com/blog/1997_GP_Belt2.jpg

It is at the shop now. No word yet, but having your opinion before they call me would be great!

Thanks again (can't say it enough!)

Tina

The pictures helped. You said the loose pulley was lower and towards the back. That would be the power steering pump. The fact that it is that loose and you can pull it out makes me think the bearing in the steering pump is ruined. The way the belt is frayed on the edge tells me it was running out of alignment and possibly rubbing on something else.

I'm pretty sure my first thoughts were correct. New power steering pump, pulley and belt. I gave the Auto Zone parts prices, so you pretty much know what to expect. Labor cost is the only thing in question.

This what I think from pictures and description. It could be something else, though I doubt that.

Sorry it couldn't have been something cheaper.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion?

Again gonesouth...THANK YOU!

I believe you have it on the nail and it will be all three parts + labor. Still no call, but I will update here when I get the word.

:)

Tina

REPAIR UPDATE:

So the car is fixed! Thank God! They replaces the PS pump and pulley and the serpentine belt.

I don't know the cost yet because my (God sent angel) of a neighbor paid for it upfront! I'll have to pay it back, but on a payment plan and he has not even told me how much yet...OMG he is the best.

I am assuming around the $280 for the repairs (he did say "something like that") and an additional $55 for the tow.

Again, thanks gonesouth....your help made me feel comfortable and I knew they could not give me a snow job because I was knowledgeable!!

Until the next time...(I mean it is a 1997!!!) take care!:)

Tina

REPAIR UPDATE:

So the car is fixed! Thank God! They replaces the PS pump and pulley and the serpentine belt.

I don't know the cost yet because my (God sent angel) of a neighbor paid for it upfront! I'll have to pay it back, but on a payment plan and he has not even told me how much yet...OMG he is the best.

I am assuming around the $280 for the repairs (he did say "something like that") and an additional $55 for the tow.

Again, thanks gonesouth....your help made me feel comfortable and I knew they could not give me a snow job because I was knowledgeable!!

Until the next time...(I mean it is a 1997!!!) take care!:)

Tina


Glad I could help and you're welcome. Now a few more things to do.

Buy that long skinny funnel and check the fluid, maybe twice, over the next few weeks. If there is a little air in the system, your fluid level could drop.

Wear a long sleeved sweatshirt if the engine is warm. Don't even try it if it's hot.

Make sure you get the reservoir cap on tight. If you're not comfortable doing that, ask a neighbor to help. After the cap is installed, start the car and look under for leaks.

Bake your neighbor a pie or buy him a pizza. Sounds like a nice guy.

gs

gonesouth,

That's funny...I was just brainstorming what to do for him and cook was definitely on the list!! Thanks!

Thanks also for the tips on what to do with the car next! I'm on that!

Lastly, let me tell you how good you are (as if you don't know :grinyes:)...the repair cost....drum roll....$286!!!! You said $280 for what was done! Awesome awesome!! That kind of help is PRICELESS!!

Tina

UGH! Ok so the car is down again. Daughter driving it...starts smoking into the car through the vents and from under the hood.

I have her check the temp and it's in the "Hot" zone. I have her check the coolant, first time, she says its low, so she buys some (she was at the auto parts store when this happened). But when she goes to put it in, now the level looks good.

She goes to start the car and it starts for a sec, steering is tight again.

I ask her to look at the serpentine belt and lo and behold, she says "It looks shredded and loose, like its about to come off"....

OK, do we think this is faulty work and the shop needs to get it right this time? Or could it possibly be something else that I will have to pay for.

Car getting towed back to the original shop today! As I said before....UGH:disappoin

UGH! Ok so the car is down again. Daughter driving it...starts smoking into the car through the vents and from under the hood.

I have her check the temp and it's in the "Hot" zone. I have her check the coolant, first time, she says its low, so she buys some (she was at the auto parts store when this happened). But when she goes to put it in, now the level looks good.

She goes to start the car and it starts for a sec, steering is tight again.

I ask her to look at the serpentine belt and lo and behold, she says "It looks shredded and loose, like its about to come off"....

OK, do we think this is faulty work and the shop needs to get it right this time? Or could it possibly be something else that I will have to pay for.

Car getting towed back to the original shop today! As I said before....UGH:disappoin

Don't hit any panic buttons......yet. Let the repair shop take a look and give their opinion.

Tell us what that opinion is!

It's possible they received a defective pump. They gave that car back to you in a 'repaired' condition that lasted, 8-10 days. Let them explain it first. We'll go from there.

Hi gonesouth!

OK...I'll stay clam and wait! I'll definitely let you know what they say within the next few days!

Appreciate the help again!

Tina

Here goes:

They say it is the Tensioner & Tensioner Pulley now

Admits they should have checked that last week so the new Serpentine belt is on them

Total cost = $265

Your thoughts/Advice???

Thanks!

Tina

Here goes:

They say it is the Tensioner & Tensioner Pulley now

Admits they should have checked that last week so the new Serpentine belt is on them

Total cost = $265

Your thoughts/Advice???

Thanks!

Tina

We've got to stop meeting like this!

My thoughts are these. I was shooting from the hip when I gave you a price range on the power steering repair. They came in on the low side of that range, so I tend to believe they are an honest shop. I don't think they overcharged you.

It seems strange that 10 days after a repair another is needed. That can happen, and well, it did. I think it's merely a coincedence. Your steering pump didn't make your belt tensioner go bad and vice versa. I don't think I could prove otherwise. Especially after you driving it for 10 days. If it was a bad repair first time around, it would have gone bad that day or the next.

$265 for the tensioner is about right. Auto Zone price on it is $74 with new pulley attached. There is a coolant elbow from the tensioner to the lower intake manifold. Make sure they change that. It's a $10 part. That's $84. Antifreeze, maybe another $20. So, $104, add tax, $110. $155 labor isn't too bad.

I know it hurts to have to put out that much so soon after just paying for the steering pump, but there's not much you can do.

Hopefully, there won't be any more in the future.

gonesouth!

Got you! and I thought the estimate was fair too - based on your original estimates! I am going to call them in the AM and tell them to go ahead and fix it!

NOTE: IF I could get a new car I would...However, I am resigned to put money into this one until it is new :)

Thanks again for your help!!!!

gonesouth!

Got you! and I thought the estimate was fair too - based on your original estimates! I am going to call them in the AM and tell them to go ahead and fix it!

NOTE: IF I could get a new car I would...However, I am resigned to put money into this one until it is new :)

Thanks again for your help!!!!

It's like I tell my neighbor all the time, 'There's no such thing as a free car. You're either paying for the one you got, or saving for the one you're getting.'

Maintenance and repairs are just part of the experience. It does beat walking though.

gonesouth! First, can I cry now :crying:

Why, Why Why!!!!

Now, it seems, the water pump has a hole in it...is this surreal or what? Are they sabotaging my car???

Tensioner was fixed ($275.25), it started running hot; man put water in the radiator (for my daughter again), water ran through. He "thinks" its the water pump (I am not with the car)...OMG...anything? Can we drive it short distances like that? Oh yeah...:crying:

Thanks,

Tina

gonesouth! First, can I cry now :crying:

Why, Why Why!!!!

Now, it seems, the water pump has a hole in it...is this surreal or what? Are they sabotaging my car???

Tensioner was fixed ($275.25), it started running hot; man put water in the radiator (for my daughter again), water ran through. He "thinks" its the water pump (I am not with the car)...OMG...anything? Can we drive it short distances like that? Oh yeah...:crying:

Thanks,

Tina

Wow!

First, I wouldn't recommend driving it. The cooling system relies on pressure to prevent boiling over. The fluids in the system have a higher boiling point if they are under pressure. With an opening in the system, your car will overheat much quicker. Also, upper engine components that need coolant may not be getting any.

No, I don't think they are sabotaging it. I do question their after repair testing procedures. If they put the tensioner on and just did a quick leak check without bringing it up to normal operating temperature, perhaps they would have seen the leak at the pump. That is if it actually is the pump. I think they should have done a pressure test on the system after installing the tensioner, just to check for leaks.

Because there are a few possibilities of what may have failed in that general area, I wonder if is in fact the water pump. Did they change the coolant elbow from the tensioner to the lower intake manifold? That elbow is in the same area as the water pump.

How long did this repair last?

I want to use the coincedence word again, but it's going back for a third time in less than a month. Like I said before, the power steering pump and belt tensioner were a coincedence. Now a water pump. The seal in the pump may have gone out just after you picked it up. They may tell you that. And that may have happened. Hard to say.

From here, I'd take it back and let them explain it, again. If the water is coming out that quickly, it may not be the pump. It may have been something they did. Post what they say and we can go from there.

I'll say it again, Wow!

Wow!

First, I wouldn't recommend driving it. The cooling system relies on pressure to prevent boiling over. The fluids in the system have a higher boiling point if they are under pressure. With an opening in the system, your car will overheat much quicker. Also, upper engine components that need coolant may not be getting any.

No, I don't think they are sabotaging it. I do question their after repair testing procedures. If they put the tensioner on and just did a quick leak check without bringing it up to normal operating temperature, perhaps they would have seen the leak at the pump. That is if it actually is the pump. I think they should have done a pressure test on the system after installing the tensioner, just to check for leaks.

Because there are a few possibilities of what may have failed in that general area, I wonder if is in fact the water pump. Did they change the coolant elbow from the tensioner to the lower intake manifold? That elbow is in the same area as the water pump.

How long did this repair last?

I want to use the coincedence word again, but it's going back for a third time in less than a month. Like I said before, the power steering pump and belt tensioner were a coincedence. Now a water pump. The seal in the pump may have gone out just after you picked it up. They may tell you that. And that may have happened. Hard to say.

From here, I'd take it back and let them explain it, again. If the water is coming out that quickly, it may not be the pump. It may have been something they did. Post what they say and we can go from there.

I'll say it again, Wow!

Thanks gonesouth! Again, I believe you hit the nail on the head.

Here are a few pics of the exact area the leaks is in:

http://www.tinatheva.com/Part1.jpg



http://www.tinatheva.com/Part2.jpg

http://www.tinatheva.com/Part3.jpg


My daughter says (and a man that looked at it and poured the water in it) says, in person, that whit stuff looks like "house caulking" like you used in a bathroom, that "blew out/came loose" and right there, where it goes in, that is where the water is coming out at.

It certainly seems like that is something they should have checked!

Thanks again and look forward to your verdict :)

Tina

Thanks gonesouth! Again, I believe you hit the nail on the head.

Here are a few pics of the exact area the leaks is in:

http://www.tinatheva.com/Part1.jpg



http://www.tinatheva.com/Part2.jpg

http://www.tinatheva.com/Part3.jpg


My daughter says (and a man that looked at it and poured the water in it) says, in person, that whit stuff looks like "house caulking" like you used in a bathroom, that "blew out/came loose" and right there, where it goes in, that is where the water is coming out at.

It certainly seems like that is something they should have checked!

Thanks again and look forward to your verdict :)

Tina

Tina,

Look at post #16 in this thread. I underlined the part about replacing that part. Looks like they didn't. Not only that, they did a lousy job of sealing it. That part has a rubber O-ring on both ends that makes the seal, not gasket maker.

That is a faulty repair and should be covered under their guarantee.

You have given them almost $600 for two seperate repairs. One of them I firmly believe is faulty.

Let them make it right and search for another shop for future repairs if you don't get the satisfaction you deserve on this job.

Good luck and keep us posted!

jim

Tina,

Look at post #16 in this thread. I underlined the part about replacing that part. Looks like they didn't. Not only that, they did a lousy job of sealing it. That part has a rubber O-ring on both ends that makes the seal, not gasket maker.

That is a faulty repair and should be covered under their guarantee.

You have given them almost $600 for two seperate repairs. One of them I firmly believe is faulty.

Let them make it right and search for another shop for future repairs if you don't get the satisfaction you deserve on this job.

Good luck and keep us posted!

jim

YAY! That's what I thought and wanted to hear...YES! Calling them right now!

Thanks...I'll let you know the out come!

Tina

YAY! That's what I thought and wanted to hear...YES! Calling them right now!

Thanks...I'll let you know the out come!

Tina

Need more proof? This is just about the same set up your car has. Yours uses the bigger of the two only. It doesn't have a lower if memory serves me correctly. Just the upper between the tensioner and lower intake manifold.

Nice pictures too.

BNaylor is one of the sharpest guys on here.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=663401


Here's the worst part. The new part is $3.28 and you only needed one of them.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_HVAC-Heater-Hose-Fitting-Motormite_17190801-P_2346_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_587103981___

Need more proof? This is just about the same set up your car has. Yours uses the bigger of the two only. It doesn't have a lower if memory serves me correctly. Just the upper between the tensioner and lower intake manifold.

Nice pictures too.

BNaylor is one of the sharpest guys on here.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=663401


Here's the worst part. The new part is $3.28 and you only needed one of them.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_HVAC-Heater-Hose-Fitting-Motormite_17190801-P_2346_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_587103981___

Excellent! Yes, I see BNaylor answering questions all the time. Well, the car was towed to the infamous shop. I called them and ran it down...lol the person on the phone's respnse? PRICELESS...he just said..."Uh OK" after I name dthe part, said they did noit use O-Rings, and said they should have changed that part..lol...to funny. But not funny being without a car all weekend again!

They said the standard over the phone "I don't know if it was us...have to see the car"...so I politely asked for their email address and forwarded the pics too! OMG I feel good about this one!

I will update tomorrow!!

Tina

Excellent! Yes, I see BNaylor answering questions all the time. Well, the car was towed to the infamous shop. I called them and ran it down...lol the person on the phone's respnse? PRICELESS...he just said..."Uh OK" after I name dthe part, said they did noit use O-Rings, and said they should have changed that part..lol...to funny. But not funny being without a car all weekend again!

They said the standard over the phone "I don't know if it was us...have to see the car"...so I politely asked for their email address and forwarded the pics too! OMG I feel good about this one!

I will update tomorrow!!

Tina

All I can say is, 'Good for you!' I'm glad you could make them be accountable.

I was very cautious to use the word coincedence again, mainly because it's just not normal for a car to require so much after being repaired.

In essence, the first job failed because they admit they didn't check the tensioner. The second job failed because it wasn't done with parts normally changed in that sitiation. Instead, they used a sealant that isn't needed. They made that choice and got caught.

That's not a very good batting average. In the future, ask friends where they go for repairs. Even though their prices were in line, the work wasn't done with the attention to detail needed.

Yes, being without a car for the weekend is the pits. Don't know if I can say s_cks on this site.

Let us know how it resolves. Be interesting to know.

Gotta ask, is VA vet assistant, like animals? You don't have to answer.

All I can say is, 'Good for you!' I'm glad you could make them be accountable.

I was very cautious to use the word coincedence again, mainly because it's just not normal for a car to require so much after being repaired.

In essence, the first job failed because they admit they didn't check the tensioner. The second job failed because it wasn't done with parts normally changed in that sitiation. Instead, they used a sealant that isn't needed. They made that choice and got caught.

That's not a very good batting average. In the future, ask friends where they go for repairs. Even though their prices were in line, the work wasn't done with the attention to detail needed.

Yes, being without a car for the weekend is the pits. Don't know if I can say s_cks on this site.

Let us know how it resolves. Be interesting to know.

Gotta ask, is VA vet assistant, like animals? You don't have to answer.

Hi gonesouth,

Well good news (in a bad situation I guess.) They fixed it at zero cost to me! They said they did anyway. They paid for the tow to them, and now they are on their way bringing it back to me (no more cab fare!) (as I am writing my daughter is going outside now...they're here!!)

Nothing on an apology...no worries, the free repair is apology enough!!

Again, I'll keep you informed, but for now, I can assume all is well!

VA stands for "Virtual Assistant" I used to tell people it's a secretary that works from home (usually), but I do way more than a traditional secretary....like create websites, etc. So a VA's work is usually related to the internet as well!!

You guys are the best on here. Don't know what I'd do without you!!

Take Care!

Tina